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Old 10-01-2015, 10:00 AM   #41
William Cloud Hicklin
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Aha! Who is wrong like big dog here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jallanite
On page 47 of Morgoth’s Ring Christopher Tolkien states:
This work [the Annals of Aman] undoubtedly belongs with the large development and recasting of the Matter of the Elder Days that my father undertook when The Lord of the Rings was finished (see p. 3).
Yes- by which CT means after his father had finished the writing of the Lord of the Rings, in 1949, not its publication in 1954-55. That misapprehension on your part explains why you misread my original post, and further leads you to misdate the last three chapters of QS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher Tolkien
In the foreword to Morgoth's Ring I emphasized the distinction between the first period of writing that followed in the early 1950s the actual completion of The Lord of the Rings, and the later work that followed its publication...

The number of new works that my father embarked upon in that first 'phase,' highly creative but all too brief, is astonishing. There were the new Lay of Leithian.... the Annals of Aman and new versions of the Ainulindale; the Grey Annals, abandoned at the end of the tale of Turin; the new Tale of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin.... and all the new tale of Turin and Nienor from Turin's return to Dor-Lomin to their deaths in Brethil. There were also an abandoned prose saga of Beren and Luthien; the story of Maeglin; and an extensive revision of the Quenta Silmarillion.
And further,


Quote:
[A] calendar, with dates in September, October, and November 1951, was used for riders to Tuor and the Grey Annals (the last version of the Annals of Beleriand and a close companion work to the Annals of Aman)

[Yes, this is the very same passage on Page 3 of MR to which your own cite refers back. Your passage continues:]

...and it stands in close relationship to the revision at that time of the corresponding parts of the Quenta Silmarillion (V.204-43, referred to throughout as QS), the text which had been abandoned at the end of 1937. Equally clearly it followed the last text of the Ainulindale (D)
You have been led astray by your misdating of AAm and subsequent dating in reference to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jallanite
The Lord of the Rings was published in three volumes over the course of a year from 29 July 1954 to 20 October 1955. Christopher Tolkien dates all the material in the sections headed “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (I)” and “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (II)” as following this, not “before the publication of The Lord of the Rings.”
was simply, completely wrong.



My point still stands, untouched by your carping: all mentions of Aelfwine post-LR date from the 1950s, and all but one Aelfwine document either definitely or probably date from JRRT's creative surge in 1949-53 between the LR's completion and publication. There is no extant evidence for Aelfwine's continued existence after the 1950s, and certainly none near or subsequent in time to 1965-66, the period of the Revised Edition and the Plotz interview, where the Bilbo-vector came to the fore.

-----------------------------------------------




Quote:
Originally Posted by jallanite
It really does seem to bother you that I use utilities to type non-keyboard characters. That is not enough to make me stop.
Got paranoia? Sheesh, talk about a persecution complex! I don't give a rat's patoot whether you use 'em or not. I was and am bothered by the hoity-toity way in which you slammed Arvegil:

Quote:
You mean Ælfwine, not Aelfwine, of course. Your English is as bad as your Elvish.
I daresay Arvegil's English is much better than your Czech, Polish or Croatian.
__________________
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Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 10-01-2015 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 10-02-2015, 08:27 PM   #42
jallanite
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On page 300 of Morgoth’s Ring (Home II) Christoper Tolkien prints a short article entitled “Note on Dating” in which he discusses his guesses on the chronology of the texts printed in “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (II)”. I don’t see reason in printing out the whole thing but will summarize. Christopher Tolkien dates all the material to 1957–59. In particular he finds the text called Laws and Customs among the Eldar and Chapter 6(–7) of the Quenta Silmarilion were typed on a “new typewriter with a rather distinctive typeface” upon which the first letter that he knows to be typed by his father was dated January 1959. Both of these texts mention Ælfwine.

I have mentioned this previously, but you have have once posted and once implied that a sole example of Ælfwine was found. For my mentions see:
See pages 208–09 for the mention of Ælfwine in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar which is in the chapter with the page heading “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)”. On page 225 occurs the notation, “So spoke Ælfwine.” On page 257 Tolkien in another later essay under the same page heading includes a footnote from Ælfwine about Míriel Sirende.
If only a sole reference had been found that would still be sufficient to show that at that time Tolkien still thought Ælfwine to be valid.

The source is in http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...2&postcount=35.

You are wrong that I misunderstood a mention of Tolkien’s publication the Lord of the Rings for a mention of his creation of it. If I have done so in anything I have posted, that is not something I have done in these posts in general. Posting inaccurately is something I try not to do, though I sometimes fail to live up to it.

The last three chapters of “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (I)” were written by Tolkien later than the first five chapters and after the amanuensis typescript was made. Christopher Tolkien dates the amanuensis typescript to 1958. In this later manuscript (dating to 1958 or later), there is, in chapter 6, a footnote purportedly by Ælfwine in which he mentions Bryde Míriel. There is also a footnote about Orcs attributed to Ælfwine in chapter 7. In his summary of chapter 8 Christopher Tolkien compares a similar passage in AAm to the Quenta Silmarillion and makes it clear that AAm here mentions Ælfwine, but he does not clarify whether or not the Quenta Silmarillion also does at this place.

Note that I do not discuss anywhere the earlier potions of LC 1, which Christopher dates to 1951, or discuss the contents of the later amanuensis typescript as it is simply a copy of the 1951 text.

Christopher Tolkien makes it quite clear on page 47 that he dates The Annals of Aman to “the large development and recasting of the Matter of the Elder Days that my father undertook when The Lord of the Rings was finished (see p. 3)”, and I am aware of this. But on page 3 he does not specifically mention it save when the says that The Annals of Aman (not dated at this point) were a close companion work to the Grey Annals. And he does not indicate when this “development and recasting” ended. He never, so far as I know, actually dates The Annals of Aman, save in part on page 191 when he questions which was earlier: the portions of The Annals of Aman then being worked on or the corresponding chapters 6–8 of the Quenta Silmarillion. He concludes only that he cannot decide but “that the two texts were closely contemporary.”

This dates the portions of the Annals of Aman, against which Tolkien was writing, about 1958, Of course the early sections of the Annals of Aman could be earlier, even much earlier.

The only mention of “Ælfwine” in the Annals of Aman are to a quotation about Ælfwine’s opinion of the creation of the Orcs including some words attributed to “Pengoloð”. See §127. This passage is mostly omitted in the typescript including the mention of Ælfwine and in any case this passage is probably early. Later in the Annals of Aman §172 occurs the footnote “* Marginal notes against Arien and Tilion: ‘dægdred Æ’ and ‘hyrned Æ’” in which I assume that Æ stands for Ælfwine, and so does Christopher Tolkien in his comment.

You will find portions of what I type above repetitive. I wanted to include everything because, possibly because of my previous wording, you seem to have misunderstood some of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
My point still stands, untouched by your carping: all mentions of Aelfwine post-LR date from the 1950s, and all but one Aelfwine document either definitely or probably date from JRRT's creative surge in 1949-53 between the LR's completion and publication.
Your point never stood. I don’t accept it and have given my reasons. Do you still not understand?

Christopher Tolkien does not definitely date any of the passages I have discussed from “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (I)” or “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)” to before 1958. The one mention of Æ in The Annals of Aman is dated about the same time as the last three chapters of the Later Quenta Silmarillion (I), close to 1958, possibly even later.

Quote:
There is no extant evidence for Aelfwine's continued existence after the 1950s, and certainly none near or subsequent in time to 1965-66, the period of the Revised Edition and the Plotz interview, where the Bilbo-vector came to the fore.
I never claimed otherwise, never. You have no reason to complain about this.

Quote:
Got paranoia?
Not at all.

Quote:
Sheesh, talk about a persecution complex!
No thanks.

Quote:
I don't give a rat's patoot whether you use 'em or not.
That’s good.

Quote:
I was and am bothered by the hoity-toity way in which you slammed Arvegil:
That was bad behavior and I apologize for it again: I apologize, for it again, Arvegil145.

Quote:
I daresay Arvegil's English is much better than your Czech, Polish or Croatian.
I daresay it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arvegil145 View Post
Hello, master Jallanite!
Hello, Arvegil145.

Quote:
I have long delayed the response to your insolent and pompous statement.
No problem. I was being unreasonably snarky, and I apologize.

Quote:
You see...I DO use the ALT-codes when writing the names of say, FinwË or ThÉoden, but the problem is (which obviously you did not perceive) that the letters (both capital and small) Æ, Ê, Û, and a few others I CANNOT write down with ALT-codes but only with copy-paste method. If you wonder why, I will tell you a little secret - I come from a Slavic country which DOES NOT use such symbols. On my keyboard there are the following symbols: Č, Ć, Đ, Ž, Š - which do not require any bothering with ALT-codes.
That explains everything. I knew you normally posted using non US-keyboard values where appropriate.

Quote:
So please, think before you write down such erroneous and ignorant comments.
Good advice.

Quote:
Yours truly, a Slavic, ignorant, non-English speaking self.
One of the most intelligent persons, or perhaps the most intelligent person, I ever knew had Slavic parents. She was Alexandra Kiceniuk and contributed to my book http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-M.../dp/0905220102.

Quote:
P.S. I don't really think that any of our discussions belong to this thread - they are so off-topic that I find it hilarious.
I agree. It is fun when a discussion opponent is too stubborn to admit he is wrong, but perhaps I should just not respond to William Cloud Hicklin at all.

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Old 11-07-2015, 11:07 PM   #43
Ivriniel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jallanite View Post
On page 300 of Morgoth’s Ring (Home II) Christoper Tolkien prints a short article entitled “Note on Dating” in which he discusses his guesses on the chronology of the texts printed in “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (II)”. I don’t see reason in printing out the whole thing but will summarize. Christopher Tolkien dates all the material to 1957–59. In particular he finds the text called Laws and Customs among the Eldar and Chapter 6(–7) of the Quenta Silmarilion were typed on a “new typewriter with a rather distinctive typeface” upon which the first letter that he knows to be typed by his father was dated January 1959. Both of these texts mention Ælfwine.

I have mentioned this previously, but you have have once posted and once implied that a sole example of Ælfwine was found. For my mentions see:
See pages 208–09 for the mention of Ælfwine in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar which is in the chapter with the page heading “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)”. On page 225 occurs the notation, “So spoke Ælfwine.” On page 257 Tolkien in another later essay under the same page heading includes a footnote from Ælfwine about Míriel Sirende.
If only a sole reference had been found that would still be sufficient to show that at that time Tolkien still thought Ælfwine to be valid.

The source is in http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...2&postcount=35.

You are wrong that I misunderstood a mention of Tolkien’s publication the Lord of the Rings for a mention of his creation of it. If I have done so in anything I have posted, that is not something I have done in these posts in general. Posting inaccurately is something I try not to do, though I sometimes fail to live up to it.

The last three chapters of “The Later QUENTA SILMARILLION (I)” were written by Tolkien later than the first five chapters and after the amanuensis typescript was made. Christopher Tolkien dates the amanuensis typescript to 1958. In this later manuscript (dating to 1958 or later), there is, in chapter 6, a footnote purportedly by Ælfwine in which he mentions Bryde Míriel. There is also a footnote about Orcs attributed to Ælfwine in chapter 7. In his summary of chapter 8 Christopher Tolkien compares a similar passage in AAm to the Quenta Silmarillion and makes it clear that AAm here mentions Ælfwine, but he does not clarify whether or not the Quenta Silmarillion also does at this place.

Note that I do not discuss anywhere the earlier potions of LC 1, which Christopher dates to 1951, or discuss the contents of the later amanuensis typescript as it is simply a copy of the 1951 text.

Christopher Tolkien makes it quite clear on page 47 that he dates The Annals of Aman to “the large development and recasting of the Matter of the Elder Days that my father undertook when The Lord of the Rings was finished (see p. 3)”, and I am aware of this. But on page 3 he does not specifically mention it save when the says that The Annals of Aman (not dated at this point) were a close companion work to the Grey Annals. And he does not indicate when this “development and recasting” ended. He never, so far as I know, actually dates The Annals of Aman, save in part on page 191 when he questions which was earlier: the portions of The Annals of Aman then being worked on or the corresponding chapters 6–8 of the Quenta Silmarillion. He concludes only that he cannot decide but “that the two texts were closely contemporary.”

This dates the portions of the Annals of Aman, against which Tolkien was writing, about 1958, Of course the early sections of the Annals of Aman could be earlier, even much earlier.

The only mention of “Ælfwine” in the Annals of Aman are to a quotation about Ælfwine’s opinion of the creation of the Orcs including some words attributed to “Pengoloð”. See §127. This passage is mostly omitted in the typescript including the mention of Ælfwine and in any case this passage is probably early. Later in the Annals of Aman §172 occurs the footnote “* Marginal notes against Arien and Tilion: ‘dægdred Æ’ and ‘hyrned Æ’” in which I assume that Æ stands for Ælfwine, and so does Christopher Tolkien in his comment.

You will find portions of what I type above repetitive. I wanted to include everything because, possibly because of my previous wording, you seem to have misunderstood some of it.

Your point never stood. I don’t accept it and have given my reasons. Do you still not understand?

Christopher Tolkien does not definitely date any of the passages I have discussed from “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (I)” or “The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)” to before 1958. The one mention of Æ in The Annals of Aman is dated about the same time as the last three chapters of the Later Quenta Silmarillion (I), close to 1958, possibly even later.

I never claimed otherwise, never. You have no reason to complain about this.

Not at all.

No thanks.

That’s good.

That was bad behavior and I apologize for it again: I apologize, for it again, Arvegil145.

I daresay it is.



Hello, Arvegil145.

No problem. I was being unreasonably snarky, and I apologize.

That explains everything. I knew you normally posted using non US-keyboard values where appropriate.

Good advice.

One of the most intelligent persons, or perhaps the most intelligent person, I ever knew had Slavic parents. She was Alexandra Kiceniuk and contributed to my book http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-M.../dp/0905220102.

I agree. It is fun when a discussion opponent is too stubborn to admit he is wrong, but perhaps I should just not respond to William Cloud Hicklin at all.
Hi Jallante,

I think the central point you're making is that Ungoliant ate Morgoth's unsighted means of being unfriends, forever (don't you recall that was how Galadriel spoke of Feanor). Of course, the central tenet of any cogent, re-Ungolianted reverso-Spectral Vector Director (rSVD c.f. fMRI scanning) would place unFrodo-ing ahead of re-Frodo-ing.

I mean, the point you make about Elrond not really being Orcish, but Elfish--woops--El-V-ish, by, um, let's see, it's not exactly 'half', because transgenomic theories remind us that recombinant--Illearth Stones--make Lord Foul, really hot, in comparison to reading difficult posts.

I'd rather be burned in the fires of -- I forget which ones were hotter -- not hot like Lord Foul, 'bad boi hot', but you, know, 'burning' hot. Though, I'm not quite sure what would happen in any romantic encounter with Lord Foul, 'by the light of the Illearth Stone'. I'm not sure quite at all how that would impact Canon ideas you've raised in your post.

Seriously, the thread is termed Sindarin something or other, and since reading ur post and finding my mind again, I think putting on-topic to Sindarin something or others is probably best.

Sometimes Sindarin-o-ramas are interesting, and Celebrimbor--not being Sindarin, did of course, have Sindarin friends. He must have, right? I'm sure Christopher Tolkien would enjoy and appreciate how his name is---battered-- about in your post.

Thanks for ur post

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Old 11-07-2015, 11:23 PM   #44
Ivriniel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orphalesion View Post
Heyo,

We all know that Tolkien kind of neglected to give names to a lot of the wives of the ancient Elf lords. Celebrimbor's wife has no name, Maglor's and Caranthir's wives have no names and neither does Orodreth's wife, the mother of Finduilas (and possibly Gil-Galad)....or does she?

A long while ago I have read somewhere in the HOMIE (I think it was the Shibboleth of Feanor? Not sure) that Tolkien tossed the idea around that Gil-Galad's mother was named "Meril" (Sindarin for "rose", at one point explicitly called the Elvish equivalent of the English name Rose).

Does anybody know if that is valid still from a linguistic standpoint? Does the word "Meril" fit into Sindarin as it existed at the time of Tolkien's death?

It would be nice to have a few more female names in the genealogies.

Curiously it would also make the house of Finarfin, the only house in which all members of the first age (except Gil-Galad) have named spouses or love interests (Amarië, Eldalotë/Edhellos, Andreth, Celeborn, Gwindor, Turin and Meril)

I really wish Tolkien had been more generous with giving the Elf Lords wives and daughters. It seems like he made attempts sometimes (Findis and Irimë, once writing that Ar-Feiniel was "the first daughter of Fingolfin", but he abandoned them rather quickly, ven all three of the nameless Fëanorian ladies get left behind in Aman) It seems a lot of the time Elf women are only mentioned when a Mortal Man needs a love interest, if Galadriel hadn't shown up in the Lotr and needed a back story, we wouldn't have had any female member of the House of Finwe who isn't there just to be wife, mother or love interest of somebody

Which is a shame because Tolkien could write women just as compelling as men if he set his mind to it as Galadriel and Morwen prove. Even the female you have to piece together from the HOME are often compelling, compare for a moment Miriel and Nerdanel to rather pale male characters like Fingon or Angrod whom not even the HoME improve much.
Yes, I love the take in your post. There were truly some wonderful stories and hidden accounts of Lore in the lost womanly lineages. I'd have very much loved a lot more on many of the famous houses, though as you point out, Tolkien did bring us some very moving womanly heroes.

Ivriniel, my Avatar has Imrahil as a descendant. Gilmith (star mist), a sister of the long gone forebear of Imrahil has stirred my curiosity deeply, at times. We never discovered if she had progeny or who they were, and what fate or legacy they brought us.

Aredhel - on some days, evokes antipathy and vomitronic tendencies (all that imagery of 'flowing white veil-y/teal-y wisps on her hunting horse rides in Valinor didn't work for me), but on others, I love her as a great hero of the Noldor. I'd especially love to see Lines of the Vanyar and womanly lineages of those, and 'which witch was which' at the battle when Beleriand was broken.

Cheers

PS: on some days, (after perhaps one too many gin and tonics), I giggle with my long loved geek pals, imagining that Sauron, really, was just a very angry woman, suppressed by male dominant social order, and so, just got so jack about it all, that she dressed as a 'drag king' and 'tricked' everyone in Valinor into seeming male.

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Old 11-12-2015, 10:53 AM   #45
William Cloud Hicklin
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I agree. It is fun when a discussion opponent is too stubborn to admit he is wrong, but perhaps I should just not respond to William Cloud Hicklin at all.

Speak for yourself! I have conceded that Aelfwine appears in Laws and Customs. You, however, have yet to back away from your curious contention that the Annals and the "last three chapters" of the Later Silmarillion I postdate the publication of the Lord of the Rings, and this is not so.

Quote:
Although, as will be seen in
Part One of this book, a potentially destructive doubt had
emerged before my father finished work on The Lord of the
Rings, nonetheless in the years that immediately followed its
completion he embarked on an ambitious remaking and en-
largement of all the Matter of the Elder Days, without departure
from the essentials of the original structure.
The creative power and confidence of that time is unmistak-
able. In July 1949, writing to the publishers on the subject of a
sequel to Farmer Giles of Ham, he said that when he had finally
achieved The Lord of the Rings 'the released spring may do
something'; and in a letter to Stanley Unwin of February 1950,
when, as he said, that goal had been reached at last, he wrote:
'For me the chief thing is that I feel that the whole matter is now
"exorcized", and rides me no more. I can turn now to other
things...' It is very significant also, I believe, that at that time he
was deeply committed to the publication of The Silmarillion
and The Lord of the Rings 'in conjunction or in connexion' as a
single work, 'one long Saga of the Jewels and the Rings'.
But little of all the work begun at that time was completed.
The new Lay of Leithian, the new tale of Tuor and the Fall of
Gondolin, the Grey Annals (of Beleriand), the revision of the
Quenta Silmarillion, were all abandoned. I have little doubt that
despair of publication, at least in the form that he regarded as
essential, was the prime cause. The negotiations with Collins
to publish both works had collapsed.
Morgoth's Ring, vii
Quote:
The evidence is clear that when The Lord of the Rings was at last
completed my father returned with great energy to the legends of the
Elder Days. He was working on the new version of the Lay of Leithian
in 1950 (III.330); and he noted (V.294) that he had revised the Quenta
Silmarillion as far as the end of the tale of Beren and Luthien on
10 May 1951. The last page of the later Tale of Tuor, where the
manuscript is reduced to notes before finally breaking off (Unfinished
Tales p. 56), is written on a page from an engagement calendar
bearing the date September 1951, and the same calendar, with dates in
September, October, and November 1951, was used for riders to Tuor
and the Grey Annals (the last version of the Annals of Beleriand and a
close companion work to the Annals of Aman, the last version of the
Annals of Valinor).
Morgoth's Ring, 3
Quote:
Of the Annals of Aman, which I shall refer to throughout by the
abbreviation 'AAm', there is a good clear manuscript, with a fair
amount of correction in different 'layers'. Emendations belonging to
the time of composition, or soon after, were carefully made; and the
manuscript gives the impression of being a 'fair copy', a second text.
But while passages of drafting may have been lost, I very much doubt
that a complete 'first text' of the Annals existed (see further p. 121
note 17). The work undoubtedly belongs with the large development
and recasting of the Matter of the Elder Days that my father
undertook when The Lord of the Rings was finished (see p. 3), and it
stands in close relationship to the revision at that time of the
corresponding parts of the Quenta Silmarillion (V.204-43
, referred to
throughout as QS), the text that had been abandoned at the end of
1937.
Morgoth's Ring, 47
Quote:
As with the Annals of Valinor (Aman) (p. 47), my father did not
begin revision of the Quenta Silmarillion as a new venture on blank
sheets, but took up again the original QS manuscript and the
typescript (entitled 'Eldanyare') derived from it (see V.199 - 201) and
covered them with corrections and expansions. As already seen (p. 3),
he noted that the revision had reached the end of the tale of Beren and
Luthien on 10 May 1951.
The chapters were very differently treated,
some being much more developed than others and running to several
further texts.
An amanuensis typescript was then made, providing a reasonably
clear and uniform text from the now complicated and difficult
materials. This was made by the same person as made the typescript of
Ainulindale' D (p. 39) and seems to have been paginated continuously
on from it. I shall call this typescript 'LQ 1' (for 'Later Quenta 1', i.e.
'the first continuous text of the later Quenta Silmarillion'). It seems
virtually certain that it was made in 1951( - 2).


[...]

Finally [i.e. after the second (1958) series of amanuensis typescripts], my father turned to new narrative writing in the Matter of
the First Age before the Hiding of Valinor. The first chapter, Of the
Valar, much altered at this time, became separated off from the
Quenta Silmarillion proper under the title Valaquenta; while the sixth
chapter, Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor (numbered 4 in
QS, V.227), and a part of the seventh, Of the Flight of the Noldor
(numbered 5 in QS), were very greatly enlarged and gave rise to new
chapters with these titles:
Of Finwe and Miriel
Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
Of the Darkening of Valinor
Of the Rape of the Silmarils
Of the Thieves' Quarrel
This new work exemplifies the 'remoulding' to which my father
looked forward in the [December 1957] letter to Rayner Unwin cited above. It repre-
sents (together with much other writing of a predominantly specula-
tive nature) a second phase in his later work on The Silmarillion. The
first phase included the new version of the Lay of Leithian, the later
Ainulindale, the Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals, the later Tale
of Tuor, and the first wave of revision of the Quenta Silmarillion
,
much of this work left unfinished. The years 1953 - 5 saw the
preparation and publication of The Lord of the Rings; and there seems
reason to think that it was a good while yet before he turned again to
The Silmarillion, or at least to its earlier chapters.
Morgoth's Ring, 141-42
Quote:
After much experimentation the plan I have
followed is based on this consideration: seeing that a great deal of the
development can be ascribed to a relatively short time (the '1951
revision')
, it seems best to take LQ 1, marking the end of that stage, as
the 'common text'. But while I print LQ 1 in full as it was typed (as far
as Chapter 5: Chapters 6 - 8 are differently treated), I also include in
the text the corrections and expansions made to it subsequently,
indicated as such. This gives at once a view of the state of the work in
both LQ 1, at the end of the 'first phase', and in LQ 2, at the beginning
of the 'second phase' some seven years later.
Morgoth's Ring, 143
Quote:
6 OF THE SILMARILS AND THE DARKENING
OF VALINOR.

The textual history of this chapter is entirely different from that of any
of the preceding ones. In the first stage of revision, only few and slight
changes were made to the QS manuscript (the old QS typescript text
having stopped at the end of the previous chapter), and these were
taken up into LQ 1. But after LQ 1 had been made, my father returned
to the old manuscript, and on the verso pages began a new version -
rather oddly, paginating it on from the end of the QS typescript, and
retaining the chapter number 4. This was clearly an element in the
revision of 1951.


[...]

A comparison will show that the new writing in LQ stands in close
relation to the corresponding part of AAm. New elements in LQ
appear also in AAm, such as Feanor's mother Miriel ($78, p. 92), the
devising of letters by Rumil and Feanor ($$80, 83), or the placing of
the making of the Silmarils after the release of Melkor (p. 104, $92).
There are constant similarities of wording and many actual identities
of phrase (notably in the encounter of Feanor with Melkor at
Formenos, LQ $54, AAm $102).
Can precedence be established between the two? It is scarcely
possible to demonstrate it one way or the other... I think in fact that the two
texts were closely contemporary.
Morgoth's Ring, 184, 191
Quote:
(II) THE SECOND PHASE.
An acute problem of presentation arose in the treatment of the late
expanded version of Chapter 6 Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of
Valinor (see pp. 142, 184 ff.)... For this reason I have divided this part
of the book into two sections, and give here separately the late
narrative versions of Chapters 1, 6, and a part of 7
together with the
essay on the Eldar. To date these writings (and those given in Part
Four) with any real precision seems impossible on the evidence that I
know of, but such as there is points clearly in most cases to the late
1950s and not much later
(for detailed discussion see p. 300).
Morgoth's Ring, 199
Quote:
Note on Dating.

It is convenient to collect here the evidence, such as it is, bearing on the
date of this late rewriting, and the texts associated with it.
I have mentioned that in a letter of December 1957 my father told
Rayner Unwin that it was his intention to 'get copies made of all
copyable material', with a view to 'remoulding' The Silmarillion; and I
have suggested that the amanuensis typescript LQ 2 of The Silmaril-
lion and that of the Annals of Aman, which were made on the same
typewriter and probably belong to the same time, may therefore be
tentatively ascribed to about 1958 (see pp. 141 - 2).
If this dating is accepted for the moment, then the annals inserted
into the manuscript of AAm concerning the death of Miriel, the
'Doom of Manwe concerning the espousals of the Eldar', and the
marriage of Finwe to Indis must have preceded 1958 or belong to that
year, since they appear in the typescript of AAm as typed (p. 101 notes
1 and 4, p. 127, $120); while the rider FM 1 to LQ concerning Finwe
and Miriel is certainly contemporary with the AAm insertions
(p. 205). The story of Finwe and Miriel in the manuscript (A) of Laws
and Customs among the Eldar certainly followed FM 1, but the two
texts were probably close in time (p. 233). It is thus notable that in the
letter written by my father in October 1958 (see pp. 267, 270) this
story and its implications were in the forefront of his mind.
The second text of the story of Finwe and Miriel (FM 2, p. 254)
intended for inclusion in The Silmarillion very probably preceded the
typescript (B) of Laws and Customs among the Eldar, since this latter
was typed on a new typewriter with a rather distinctive typeface. Also
typed on this machine were the Valaquenta and the texts of the late
rewriting of Chapter 6( - 7). The first letter of my father's that I know
of to be typed on the new typewriter is dated January 1959.
There is no actual proof of date in any of this, of course, but taken
together it points clearly, I think, to the late 1950s as the time when
the story of Finwe and Miriel arose and Laws and Customs among the
Eldar was written.
Morgoth's Ring, 300

Given that you have cited some of these very passages, it is startling indeed that you have somehow managed to extract from them something other than what they plainly say: that the Annals and the 'first phase" revision of QS, together with much else, were produced in a great surge of creativity 1949-52; in fact the very reason that CT divided the chapter "The Later Quenta Silmarillion" into two 'phases' was precisely to separate this material from the later matter composed circa 1958 arising from the new conception of the House of Finwe.
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