About the map of Middle-Earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galdor · 02-24-2002, 11:53 AM

On the map of Middle-Earth, the left end of the map ends with the Sea, but the right end of it ends with land. If M-E is a globe, how could that work? Does the Sea end abrubtly and land start from the end of it?

Gayahithwen · 02-24-2002, 12:24 PM

I would guess that the map is not of the whole ME, but just from the parts needed to know anything about. That is only a guess, and if anyone else have a better explaination, I'm willing to listen to them.

Elven-Maiden · 02-24-2002, 12:29 PM

On my map, which sounds like the one you're describing, it's called "The West of Middle Earth". I assume that there's more beyond the map that wasn't necessary in the book.

Starbreeze · 02-24-2002, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gayahithwen:
<STRONG>I would guess that the map is not of the whole ME, but just from the parts needed to know anything about.</STRONG>

Well, thats what I thought anyways. I pondered about this for some time before deciding that I couldn't be bothered to find out any more. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Kuruharan · 02-24-2002, 01:24 PM

[yet another shameless plugs for one of my favorite Middle earth books, I oughta start charging Fonstad advertising fees.]

The Atlas of Middle Earth by Karen Fonstad has just about everything that you could want to know about the geography of Middle Earth.
Yes, the maps in the book are only of parts of the world. The landmass went much, much farther to the east and south than we ever see. There are also other continents and so forth across the seas. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Belsirithil · 02-24-2002, 01:42 PM

Crud... My post just got deleted because the "network is busy"! So I'll make it simple... Middle-earth is Middle-earth. If the elves sailed over the sea to leave Middle-earth forever, they did not return to some other part of Middle-earth!

Elven-Maiden · 02-24-2002, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Belsirithil:
<STRONG>Crud... My post just got deleted because the "network is busy"! So I'll make it simple... Middle-earth is Middle-earth. If the elves sailed over the sea to leave Middle-earth forever, they did not return to some other part of Middle-earth!</STRONG>

Oh, please expand on that! I'd love to know what you wanted to write! It sounds thought-provoking and imaginative! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Belsirithil · 02-24-2002, 02:26 PM

Well, there isn't much more to say... Why did Tolkien name Middle-earth "Middle-earth"? It must be because it is the main part of the earth, though not necessarily the only part. Middle-earth is not the whole globe. Tolkien did not say that the Elves sailed across the sea forever just to end up on the other side of Middle-earth or something. They sailed to another continent. If you read The Silmarillion, it says that practically all except Ulmo and Melkor and his minions left Middle-earth at one point. Ulmo (the sea), you see, was between them and Middle-earth.

Bruce MacCulloch · 02-24-2002, 04:32 PM

The term "Middle Earth" is the term used in Germanic mytholgy for the earth.

Belsirithil · 02-24-2002, 04:34 PM

Well, I seriously doubt that Tolkien was referring to that, for Middle-earth is obviously not the only place on earth!

Bruce MacCulloch · 02-24-2002, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Well, I seriously doubt that Tolkien was referring to that

Actually, Professor Tolkien said himself that he was referring to this.

Quote:

'Middle-earth', by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in (like the Mercury of Eddison). It is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English Middangeard: the name for the inhabited lands of Men 'between the seas'.

Letters, no 165

Middangeard is the Old English equivalent of the Midgard of Wagner and the Eddas.

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

Belsirithil · 02-24-2002, 04:50 PM

Well, then I personally find his writings to be scrambled, or crooked rather, if what you say is true. No offense to them, though; I enjoyed them much.

Snowdog · 06-27-2003, 11:42 AM

I have to give another shameless plug for the Atlas of Middle Earth myself, So I am echoing what Kuruharan said.

Duncariel · 06-27-2003, 07:18 PM

When the Elves "sailed off into the West" they were returning to Aman, the Undying Lands, which are west of Middle Earth. Kind of amazing how that works, ain't it? Tolkien's ME was connected to Aman by the Helcaraxe ( The Grinding Ice ) that the rest of the Noldor crossed when Feanor burned the ships of the Teleri after crossing from Aman. Numenor lay between them.

Tolkien never says whether there are any lands on the other side of the world, that I know of.

Marroc Underhill · 06-29-2003, 06:43 AM

I have an Atlas of Middle-Earth and east
there is the Inland Sea of Helcar and past that is Hildorien and east of that is the East Sea, and there is a land past that is a land with mountains called the Walls of the
Sun. South-East of Middle-Earth is Dark Land
or South Land. South of Middle-Earth is Hitcher Lands with the Grey Mountains.
West of Middle-Earth is Aman.
I do hope I helped.

Droggo Underhill

Manwe Sulimo · 06-29-2003, 07:16 AM

The map shows just a small part of the continent of Middle-earth. In parts of Book V there are numerous descriptions of "Easterlings", people who came from beyond Mordor. Haradwaith is referred to as "the land where the stars are strange", meaning the southern hemisphere of Arda. The equator is probably somewhere in South Gondor. Gimli also calls Moria "one of the wonders of the northern world", which again shows the small scale of the map of northwestern Middle-earth.

There are maps of the whole of Arda, in some of the HoMe books (I'm not sure which, but I think IV has the most). While not published (and therefore not canon), they are JRRT's most complete maps that CRRT has found. I think they are the ones that Marroc Underhill was referring to.

EDIT: There's a good map at the Encyclopedia of Arda, under the entry "Arda".

[ June 29, 2003: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ]

Meneltarmacil · 07-05-2003, 03:21 PM

Actually, the equator (in this case, it's called the "Girdle of Arda") is much farther south than that. I happen to have an Atlas of Middle Earth, so I can tell you that there is more stuff to the east and south. If you look at the Sea of Rhun, there is a river running into it on one side, but where there should be a river on the eastern side, there's nothing. In The Atlas, there is a river going through there that starts in the Orocarni, which is another mountain range that's slightly longer than the Misty Mountains. In the southern part of the Orocarni, there is a forest called the Wild Wood and another river running south toward the Inner Seas. East of the Orocarni, there is a coastal plain with rivers running toward the East Sea. To the south, there are the Grey Mountains along the coast going south from Umbar. There is a river going east to the Inner Seas and a lot of forests which I take to be jungles in the south. There is also a continent in the southeast called the Dark Land which seems to be covered in jungle and in the far east there is a place that looks a whole lot like a mirror image of Valinor.

piosenniel · 07-05-2003, 03:35 PM

Look
HERE.

[ July 05, 2003: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

Aragost · 07-08-2003, 06:38 PM

HoME # IV does have the most maps of Arda

02-24-2002, 11:53 AM	#1
Galdor Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Look up. Yeah, in the big tree. No, the one to the right. Posts: 12	About the map of Middle-Earth On the map of Middle-Earth, the left end of the map ends with the Sea, but the right end of it ends with land. If M-E is a globe, how could that work? Does the Sea end abrubtly and land start from the end of it? __________________ "Now thats an eyeopener, and that's no mistake." -Samwise Gamgee

02-24-2002, 12:24 PM	#2
Gayahithwen Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The chat-room. Posts: 243	I would guess that the map is not of the whole ME, but just from the parts needed to know anything about. That is only a guess, and if anyone else have a better explaination, I'm willing to listen to them. __________________ Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away - and barefoot.

02-24-2002, 12:29 PM	#3
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 307	On my map, which sounds like the one you're describing, it's called "The West of Middle Earth". I assume that there's more beyond the map that wasn't necessary in the book. __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

02-24-2002, 01:24 PM	#5
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,685	[yet another shameless plugs for one of my favorite Middle earth books, I oughta start charging Fonstad advertising fees.] The Atlas of Middle Earth by Karen Fonstad has just about everything that you could want to know about the geography of Middle Earth. Yes, the maps in the book are only of parts of the world. The landmass went much, much farther to the east and south than we ever see. There are also other continents and so forth across the seas. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

02-24-2002, 01:42 PM	#6
Belsirithil Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cimmura, Elenia, Eosia Posts: 22	Crud... My post just got deleted because the "network is busy"! So I'll make it simple... Middle-earth is Middle-earth. If the elves sailed over the sea to leave Middle-earth forever, they did not return to some other part of Middle-earth! __________________ Elenia: http://www.angelfire.com/ego/elenia Live long and prosper, in the hearts of Child-Goddess Aphrael, Sephrenia, and me! ~-~Ehlana

02-24-2002, 02:26 PM	#8
Belsirithil Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cimmura, Elenia, Eosia Posts: 22	Well, there isn't much more to say... Why did Tolkien name Middle-earth "Middle-earth"? It must be because it is the main part of the earth, though not necessarily the only part. Middle-earth is not the whole globe. Tolkien did not say that the Elves sailed across the sea forever just to end up on the other side of Middle-earth or something. They sailed to another continent. If you read The Silmarillion, it says that practically all except Ulmo and Melkor and his minions left Middle-earth at one point. Ulmo (the sea), you see, was between them and Middle-earth. __________________ Elenia: http://www.angelfire.com/ego/elenia Live long and prosper, in the hearts of Child-Goddess Aphrael, Sephrenia, and me! ~-~Ehlana

02-24-2002, 04:32 PM	#9
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 652	The term "Middle Earth" is the term used in Germanic mytholgy for the earth. __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

02-24-2002, 04:34 PM	#10
Belsirithil Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cimmura, Elenia, Eosia Posts: 22	Well, I seriously doubt that Tolkien was referring to that, for Middle-earth is obviously not the only place on earth! __________________ Elenia: http://www.angelfire.com/ego/elenia Live long and prosper, in the hearts of Child-Goddess Aphrael, Sephrenia, and me! ~-~Ehlana

02-24-2002, 04:50 PM	#12
Belsirithil Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cimmura, Elenia, Eosia Posts: 22	Well, then I personally find his writings to be scrambled, or crooked rather, if what you say is true. No offense to them, though; I enjoyed them much. __________________ Elenia: http://www.angelfire.com/ego/elenia Live long and prosper, in the hearts of Child-Goddess Aphrael, Sephrenia, and me! ~-~Ehlana

06-27-2003, 11:42 AM	#13
Snowdog Emperor of the South Pole Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Western Shore of Lake Evendim Posts: 606	I have to give another shameless plug for the Atlas of Middle Earth myself, So I am echoing what Kuruharan said.

06-27-2003, 07:18 PM	#14
Duncariel Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow Posts: 226	When the Elves "sailed off into the West" they were returning to Aman, the Undying Lands, which are west of Middle Earth. Kind of amazing how that works, ain't it? Tolkien's ME was connected to Aman by the Helcaraxe ( The Grinding Ice ) that the rest of the Noldor crossed when Feanor burned the ships of the Teleri after crossing from Aman. Numenor lay between them. Tolkien never says whether there are any lands on the other side of the world, that I know of. __________________ Middle-earth: Insanity "What, the peons aren't trusted?" -- Yazoo, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children

06-29-2003, 06:43 AM	#15
Marroc Underhill Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In The Deep Places Of The World Posts: 61	I have an Atlas of Middle-Earth and east there is the Inland Sea of Helcar and past that is Hildorien and east of that is the East Sea, and there is a land past that is a land with mountains called the Walls of the Sun. South-East of Middle-Earth is Dark Land or South Land. South of Middle-Earth is Hitcher Lands with the Grey Mountains. West of Middle-Earth is Aman. I do hope I helped. Droggo Underhill __________________ Hail to the Lords of Angmar, for we are the true power!

06-29-2003, 07:16 AM	#16
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	The map shows just a small part of the continent of Middle-earth. In parts of Book V there are numerous descriptions of "Easterlings", people who came from beyond Mordor. Haradwaith is referred to as "the land where the stars are strange", meaning the southern hemisphere of Arda. The equator is probably somewhere in South Gondor. Gimli also calls Moria "one of the wonders of the northern world", which again shows the small scale of the map of northwestern Middle-earth. There are maps of the whole of Arda, in some of the HoMe books (I'm not sure which, but I think IV has the most). While not published (and therefore not canon), they are JRRT's most complete maps that CRRT has found. I think they are the ones that Marroc Underhill was referring to. EDIT: There's a good map at the Encyclopedia of Arda, under the entry "Arda". [ June 29, 2003: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ] __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

07-05-2003, 03:21 PM	#17
Meneltarmacil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The bottom of the ocean, discussing philosophy with a giant squid Posts: 2,287	Actually, the equator (in this case, it's called the "Girdle of Arda") is much farther south than that. I happen to have an Atlas of Middle Earth, so I can tell you that there is more stuff to the east and south. If you look at the Sea of Rhun, there is a river running into it on one side, but where there should be a river on the eastern side, there's nothing. In The Atlas, there is a river going through there that starts in the Orocarni, which is another mountain range that's slightly longer than the Misty Mountains. In the southern part of the Orocarni, there is a forest called the Wild Wood and another river running south toward the Inner Seas. East of the Orocarni, there is a coastal plain with rivers running toward the East Sea. To the south, there are the Grey Mountains along the coast going south from Umbar. There is a river going east to the Inner Seas and a lot of forests which I take to be jungles in the south. There is also a continent in the southeast called the Dark Land which seems to be covered in jungle and in the far east there is a place that looks a whole lot like a mirror image of Valinor. __________________ I ♣ baby seals.

07-05-2003, 03:35 PM	#18
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,816	Look HERE. [ July 05, 2003: Message edited by: piosenniel ] __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

07-08-2003, 06:38 PM	#19
Aragost Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Arthedain Posts: 137	HoME # IV does have the most maps of Arda __________________ Where there's a whip there's a will