Noob Needs help

[danb]

hey guys im new and was wondering if someone could teach me Quenya. I have msn. skype. and teamviewer. i would just like to speak with someone who can teach me.

[Mnemosyne]

danb, I would recommend Helge Fauskanger's excellent website, Ardalambion, which has a 20-lesson Quenya course here.

A word (or three) of caution, though: first of all, because Quenya is an incomplete language, there is, in a sense, no such thing as "learning" it, the way you'd learn (say) French or even Esperanto. Second (though you may already know this), it really does work like a foreign language, meaning that it has a completely different underlying grammatical structure to it than English. (On the other hand, whenever you learn more about a foreign grammar, you end up learning something new about your own!)

It's been a while since I've been through the course, but if you're willing to work through it and need a buddy or a different way of explaining things, you can send me a private message. But I don't have the time to teach someone a language that I myself only know a smattering of.

[danb]

thanks for that info... all i really want to know though is like how to write in Quenya and say basic stuff

[Mnemosyne]

"Quenya" is the name of the language, not the alphabet, which is Tengwar. That is super easy, especially if you are okay with downloading the fonts and the conversion software that makes the diacritical marks for you (in Tengwar, the vowels go above the consonants).

As far as saying basic things... there were some old internet phrasebooks back from when the movies came out, but I haven't seen them in ages... much more fun to delve into the real thing.

[Alfirin]

That brings up a question I've had for some time. Is what those courses and phrasebooks teach Quenya, or Sindarin? that is is it old/high Elvish or new/modern/Grey Elvish? I had one of those hard copy books some time ago, and when it classified the Elvish quotes in LOTR, almost all of them were marked as being in Sindarin (Quenya seemed reserved for the more noble and educated. I sort of Compare the situation to that of people in Japan, who speak and write modern Japanese for day to day things, but also learn Classical Japanese in school so they can read older works) , so I assumed that Sindarin, was what most people practice when they learn to "speak Elvish". Or do most people learn both?

[Pitchwife]

Alfirin, Quenya and Sindarin aren't so much 'old' and 'modern' forms of the same language as distinct languages, about as different from each other in sound and grammar as, say, Latin and Welsh, although they're both descended from the same ancestor language, Primitive Quendian (just like both Latin and Welsh can be traced back to Proto-Indo-European). But I suppose you can say that Quenya is more 'classical' in so far as it's less changed from PQ than Sindarin is, and also it has at the time of LotR become a language of lore and ceremony rather than a living language - again, think of Latin in medieval and early modern Europe (actually, Tolkien occasionally called it 'Elf-latin', drawing attention to the analogy).

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Alfirin, Quenya and Sindarin aren't so much 'old' and 'modern' forms of the same language as distinct languages, about as different from each other in sound and grammar as, say, Latin and Welsh, although they're both descended from the same ancestor language, Primitive Quendian (just like both Latin and Welsh can be traced back to Proto-Indo-European). But I suppose you can say that Quenya is more 'classical' in so far as it's less changed from PQ than Sindarin is, and also it has at the time of LotR become a language of lore and ceremony rather than a living language - again, think of Latin in medieval and early modern Europe (actually, Tolkien occasionally called it 'Elf-latin', drawing attention to the analogy).

Okay I understand that, I wasn't actually thinking of the two as being connected (when my mind said Old Elvish it was actually thiunking in terms of "the Elvish spoken by the Old Elves" versus "The elvish spoken by the modern elves" (if one take LOTR as being "modern times" for the Elvish people, as it is thier last age) But that still brings up the question, if you wanted to "talk like an elf" wouldn't you want to learn Sindarin, not Quenya? Quenya sounds like a Ceremonial/Academic langauge in LOTR times (as you said like Latin in Europe). The closest analouge I can think of would be trying to converse in Church/Academic Latin if you hit a time warp and suddenly found yourself in ancient Rome, (or possibly trying to speak Hebrew in Israel when the only Hebrew you know is what you learned in synagouge.)

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Okay I understand that, I wasn't actually thinking of the two as being connected (when my mind said Old Elvish it was actually thiunking in terms of "the Elvish spoken by the Old Elves" versus "The elvish spoken by the modern elves" (if one take LOTR as being "modern times" for the Elvish people, as it is thier last age) But that still brings up the question, if you wanted to "talk like an elf" wouldn't you want to learn Sindarin, not Quenya? Quenya sounds like a Ceremonial/Academic langauge in LOTR times (as you said like Latin in Europe). The closest analouge I can think of would be trying to converse in Church/Academic Latin if you hit a time warp and suddenly found yourself in ancient Rome, (or possibly trying to speak Hebrew in Israel when the only Hebrew you know is what you learned in synagouge.)

Your analogies are close, but not complete, and I think the lack of completion makes a big difference. Quenya, unlike Latin or Biblical Hebrew, is not a dead or resurrected language, even if it's not the lingua franca of Elvendom. If only because of the immortality of the Elves, the situation is different. There are still Elves about (Galadriel and Glorfindel come to mind) who spoke it from birth. Quenya, like the Quendi, has not "died," even if it has faded.

Also, one could argue that Sindarin, precisely because it was more current and common, was less "Elvish" than Quenya in the Third Age, what with its status as a living (if little changing) tongue in the Dúnedain communities.

Ultimately, I think it'd be unfair to say that one language is more Elvish than the other--that'd be like saying the Elves in Valinor are more Elvish than the Elves in Rivendell, or that Fingolfin is more of an Elf than Thingol. It's purely a question of taste which language one would want to learn, and since even Tolkien himself shifted back and forth according to mood in terms of which he preferred, I daresay any fan could do likewise.

[Galin]

I guess it depends on how one looks at it, as Quenya could be said to be 'dead' in a sense...

'At the time of the L. R. (see II 106) Quenya had been a 'dead' [language] (sc. one not inherited by childhood, but learnt) for many centuries (act. about 6,000 years).'

JRRT, Letters

Sojourning back to Frodo's day, the language one would want to learn is Sindarin, for everyday speech anyway. There were Quenya speakers, but 'regular chatting' with even Galadriel would be in a form of Sindarin...

... though maybe if a mortal wanted to impress her (if time travel wasn't enough!), toss in a bit of High Elven!