The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Announcements and Obituaries > Haudh-en-Ndengin
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-28-2002, 04:37 PM   #1
tom bombariffic
Wight
 
tom bombariffic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: In the house of Tom Bombariffic
Posts: 196
tom bombariffic has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien Orcs and Uruk Hai

Hello

Im sure this question has been raised hundreds of times before (I saw someone mention it in another thread, but the question wasnt really addressed). Basically, I was wondering:

1) Is there a difference between Orcs and Goblins
2) Are Uruk Hai a cross between Orcs and Men, or Orcs and Goblins?

I got confused, because i've heard people say that orcs and goblins are the same thing, but i was sure that the two towers talked about Uruk hai from Isengard, Orcs from Mordor and goblins from the north. Hoom hum. Well if anyone can clarify this, it would be much appreciated.

Bombariffic
__________________
The 'hum' generated by an electric car is not in fact the noise of the engine, but that of the driver's self-righteousness oscillating at a high frequency.
tom bombariffic is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 04:45 PM   #2
Curulin
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The woods of Orome.
Posts: 58
Curulin has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

hello bomberiffic.
well, in answer to one of your questions, it is not rididly: ors from mordor, uruk-hai from isengard and goblins from the north. Uruk hai (or uruks) were just a strong type of fighting orc, and both Saruman and Sauron used them. Orcs are twisted beings, first created by Morgoth, and then spread throughout middle-earth, inhabiting it where they could.
As for Goblins and orcs I think that the terms are intrchangeable. I think Tolkien states this or uses the terms interchangeably in one of his letters.
hope that answers some of your questions.
Bomberiffic? dont i know you from somewhwre? Guess i mustve dreamt it...
Curulin
__________________
Well, I'm back.
Curulin is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 04:47 PM   #3
Ar-Gilien
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Ossiriand
Posts: 26
Ar-Gilien has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

The first orcs, called Olog-hai, were those elves captured and perverted by Melkor/Morgoth, so turned to evil, that they shunned the sunlight. Those elves that had fallen prey to his lies, and which descended into the very pits of Utumno, where they were broken and changed into the creatures of Morgoth's dark will. "Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, put into prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves.." (See: The Silmarillion, page 50, second paragraph.) It said that these very elves were made a mockery of the Children of Iluvatar.

Goblins, I believe, were a different race altogether than orcs. Yes, I think they were created at the same time, or a little after the Olog-hai, but different. Not elvish in their origins, just something evil.

The Uruk-hai, or second orcs were bred either by Sauron, in secret in Mordor (See entry: "Uruk-hai", The Tolkien Companion, page 498.) It says that the uruk-hai, or 'orc-race', are the second race, taller and stronger than their weaker cousins. It also says that they are are blending of orcs and of men. However, in the first LoTR movie, it shows that Saruman is responsible for their creation, but again, there it says, a 'blending of orcs and men.' Who created the uruk-hai is debatable, but with two sources cited, I am willing to bet they (uruk-hai) are a cross strain of both orcs and men, especially if Morgoth's creation of the Olog-hai, were such proved failures.

[ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: Ar-Gilien ]
__________________
"We'll getses you, my preciousss, and your little dog, too!"~Gollum, portraying the Wicked Witch of the West, from 'Wizard of Oz'~
Ar-Gilien is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 04:57 PM   #4
tom bombariffic
Wight
 
tom bombariffic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: In the house of Tom Bombariffic
Posts: 196
tom bombariffic has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

sorry, Im being a bit slow here, but "lets not be hasty" eh? im sure you're right, but I always thought that the whole point of Uruk Hai was that they could fight well (like one of their roots, presumaby orcs) but could also travel in the light (like whatever else they derived from). BUt men are both better fighters than orcs and can travel in daylight.
Im sure you're right about being a different race, but I doubt the goblins were created, they probably just evolved from orcs after living in the mountains.
__________________
The 'hum' generated by an electric car is not in fact the noise of the engine, but that of the driver's self-righteousness oscillating at a high frequency.
tom bombariffic is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 05:06 PM   #5
Ar-Gilien
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Ossiriand
Posts: 26
Ar-Gilien has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

In all honesty, I have never seen an entry about the creation of the goblin race, so the theory of their evolution is quite intriguing.

As for the Uruk-hai having the ability to travel in daylight, being smarter, faster, than their dark loving cousins, again, that would be a factor of breeding. I would think that they would inherit certain traits from both parent races. The time factor is there as well. The uruk-hai were not created 'overnight', after all, Gandalf was held prisoner by Saruman, for possibly 30 or so years. In that time, Saruman, should he prove to be the one who created the uruk-hai, would have had time to refine the orc's inherent traits of intelligence and warcraft, as well as combat skills, endurance, and so forth. With dark magic and dark knowledge combined, I'd say the Uruk-hai were quite a step up from their progenitors, the Olog-hai.

[ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: Ar-Gilien ]
__________________
"We'll getses you, my preciousss, and your little dog, too!"~Gollum, portraying the Wicked Witch of the West, from 'Wizard of Oz'~
Ar-Gilien is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 05:34 PM   #6
Curulin
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The woods of Orome.
Posts: 58
Curulin has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

just a small couple of points to modify what your saying:
the olog-hai were not orcs, but a strong race of Trolls bred by Sauron at the end of the Third Age. Unlike others of Troll-kind, they could endure the light of the Sun. I think this is true, but if you can find the relevant passage from the books, then ill be wrong.
I dont think it is possible that gandalf could be held by Saruman for 30 or so years seeing as from the time he left frodo to the time he met him again in rivendell less than one year or so had passed.
as for the creation of Goblins, as i said earlier, tolkien uses the term orc and goblin interchangeably, suggesting that they are one and the same, not a race apart. On top of this, they could not be a seperate race, as only Eru had the power to give life to a race, so in making Goblins, Melkor would have broken one of the axani (laws) set down by Eru.

[ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: Curulin ]
__________________
Well, I'm back.
Curulin is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 05:38 PM   #7
tom bombariffic
Wight
 
tom bombariffic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: In the house of Tom Bombariffic
Posts: 196
tom bombariffic has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

I dont think thay were a separate race, but were still different to orcs. Where in the books does he use the names interchangeably? as far as I know, he always says orcs for those from isengard or mordor (or uruk hai) and always goblins in, say, the hobbit.
__________________
The 'hum' generated by an electric car is not in fact the noise of the engine, but that of the driver's self-righteousness oscillating at a high frequency.
tom bombariffic is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 05:45 PM   #8
Ar-Gilien
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Ossiriand
Posts: 26
Ar-Gilien has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Ah, Curulin, you are indeed quite correct about the Olog-hai. I bow to your knowledge upon that subject. But the time is late for me here, and things begin to run together at this hour.

*Side Note: But as for Gandalf being held prisoner for (I correct myself) 20 or so years, if you look in the book, "Fellowship of the Ring",Chapter 2,pages 41-42, Gandalf was held prisoner for 28 years, as Frodo was 33 years of age at Bilbo's Birthday party, when Gandalf comes back, Frodo is 50. That would still give Saruman the time to perfect the race of the uruk-hai.

Also, as for orcs and goblins being used interchangeably...Tolkien was a linguist above all else, and wouldn't use any name interchangeably without explanation.

[ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: Ar-Gilien ]

[ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: Ar-Gilien ]
__________________
"We'll getses you, my preciousss, and your little dog, too!"~Gollum, portraying the Wicked Witch of the West, from 'Wizard of Oz'~
Ar-Gilien is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 05:46 PM   #9
Curulin
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The woods of Orome.
Posts: 58
Curulin has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

he uses both terms in one of the letters, and the implication is that they are the same.

As for Uruk-hai or Uruk, we can see from Appendix F from The Lord of the Rings:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was iorch. Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________________
Well, I'm back.
Curulin is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 05:50 PM   #10
Ar-Gilien
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Ossiriand
Posts: 26
Ar-Gilien has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

What are the letters that you are talking about? Does this pertain to the Lord of the Rings? If so, care to cite your source?
__________________
"We'll getses you, my preciousss, and your little dog, too!"~Gollum, portraying the Wicked Witch of the West, from 'Wizard of Oz'~
Ar-Gilien is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 05:51 PM   #11
tom bombariffic
Wight
 
tom bombariffic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: In the house of Tom Bombariffic
Posts: 196
tom bombariffic has just left Hobbiton.
Boots

But gandalf wasnt imprisoned between bilbos party and Frodo leaving, he was imprisoned between frodo leaving and frodo reaching rivendell, which is not even a year.

(in relation to what was said a couple of posts ago. hoom hoom im so slow...well, best not to be hasty)

[ December 28, 2002: Message edited by: tom bombariffic ]
__________________
The 'hum' generated by an electric car is not in fact the noise of the engine, but that of the driver's self-righteousness oscillating at a high frequency.
tom bombariffic is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 05:55 PM   #12
Curulin
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The woods of Orome.
Posts: 58
Curulin has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

The Letters of J.R.R Tolkien, edited by Humphrey Carpenter with the assistance of Christopher Tolkien and first Published by Harper Collins Books in 1981.
I suggest you go and buy them, it would be to your
advantage.
__________________
Well, I'm back.
Curulin is offline  
Old 12-28-2002, 07:29 PM   #13
Tar Elenion
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 283
Tar Elenion has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Orc and Goblin are interchangable.
Both Sauron and Saruman had Uruk-hai.
Gandalf was imprisoned on July 10, 3019 and escaped Sept. 18, 3019.
__________________
Tar-Elenion
Tar Elenion is offline  
Old 12-29-2002, 10:21 AM   #14
Bill Ferny
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bree
Posts: 392
Bill Ferny has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

This subject often comes up on the forum. The most definitive discussion of the subject is a rather long thread, but it is by far the most thorough investigation of orc kind on the forum and well worth the read if you are interested in the subject: orcish fear.

Those who contributed to this thread really did their research!
__________________
I prefer Gillaume dFrny, connoisseur of fine fruit.
Bill Ferny is offline  
Old 12-12-2003, 07:25 PM   #15
Eol Telemnar
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be?
Posts: 89
Eol Telemnar has just left Hobbiton.
Eye

Going back to the original question:

There is a small difference between goblins and orcs. Goblins mainly stay underground (which is why they have gigantic eyes [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) Orcs usualy are on ground level most of the time.

Yes! Uruk-hai are a combination of orcs and goblins [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
__________________
Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.
Eol Telemnar is offline  
Old 12-13-2003, 10:22 PM   #16
Gashberz
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Diego, U.S.A
Posts: 57
Gashberz has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Gashberz
Sting

yeah I'll post something on it later cause i dont feel like typing it now.
__________________
"We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us mans flesh to eat!"
-Uglk
Gashberz is offline  
Old 12-13-2003, 11:18 PM   #17
Tar Elenion
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 283
Tar Elenion has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

"There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men."
LotR, TT
The 'goblin-soldiers' are Uruk-hai.

"Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen."
LotR, TT

Another Uruk-hai, perhaps Ugluk

"They had run a long way shouting-he could not remember how far or how long; and then suddenly they had crashed right into a group of Orcs: they were standing listening, and they did not appear to see Merry and Pippin until they were almost in their arms. Then they yelled and dozens of other goblins had sprung out of the trees. Merry and he had drawn their swords, but the Orcs did not wish to fight, and had tried only to lay hold of them, even when Merry had cut off several of their arms and hands. Good old Merry!"
LotR, TT

The Uruk-hai here are referred to as both 'goblins' and 'Orcs'.


"Also the Orcs (goblins) and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed."
Letter 131


"Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in the Black Speech."
Letter 144

"This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin..."
The Hobbit

Note the translation of ORCrist as GOBLIN-cleaver

"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kind)."
The Hobbit, Foreword

'Orc' and 'goblin' are interchangeable and refer to the same type of being.
__________________
Tar-Elenion
Tar Elenion is offline  
Old 12-14-2003, 11:53 AM   #18
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Sting

To be precise, the word "Orc" is actually Sindarin for "Goblin" or "Monster," and the plural is "Yrch." In Quenya, the word is "Urcu" or "Urco," which stands for "Bogey" or "Monster," and is used to represent the race of Orcs in Tolkien's mythos.
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fanor, and there he slew Finw King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finw alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline  
Old 12-15-2003, 03:37 PM   #19
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth...
Posts: 137
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
Yes! Uruk-hai are a combination of orcs and goblins
Um, no. Uruk means Orc in the black speech, and Hai means folk, group, or something of this nature. Uruk-Hai simply means Orcfolk, usually referring to the larger orcs.
However, there are several threads on this topic, so lets not go into it here.
__________________
Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered.

No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar is offline  
Old 12-15-2003, 03:56 PM   #20
Burzdol
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Fair City of Rivendell
Posts: 276
Burzdol has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Aren't goblins a lot smaller? I thought they could climb and were better at blending with darkness. As for Urks, they are just a larger breed of orc. But that also raises another question, how many orc breeds are there?
__________________
"Kill them all for all I care. You just keep that bow away from me!"
Burzdol is offline  
Old 12-15-2003, 07:13 PM   #21
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth...
Posts: 137
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
Aren't goblins a lot smaller? I thought they could climb and were better at blending with darkness
NO, NO, NO!!! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Look at Tar Elenion's earlier post. He takes many quotes that make a great argument.
__________________
Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered.

No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar is offline  
Old 12-21-2003, 11:18 PM   #22
surjay
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

The difference in Frodo's age at the time of Bilbo's birthday party and the time they are together in Rivendel is because Frodo didn't leave the Shire until a good 17 YEARS after Bilbo's birthday party. He was 33 then, but 50 when he set out. Read the FOTR again and this is pretty clear. Gandalf wasn't imprisoned by Saruman for even 1 year, let alone 30.

Goblin is just another word for Orc.

"Orcrist" = "Goblin-Cleaver"
Orc = Goblin
 
Old 12-21-2003, 11:22 PM   #23
Rasputin
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 23
Rasputin has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Rasputin
Sting

i remember someone in fellowship in the ring said (i cant remember who, i think it was elrond) "By foul craft saruman is breeding orcs with goblin men". i beileve it goes like that. that leads me to beileve that goblins are entirely different.
Rasputin is offline  
Old 12-22-2003, 06:20 AM   #24
Olorin_TLA
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Gardens of Lrien, Valinor.
Posts: 420
Olorin_TLA has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

That was a line from the moives, invented by Peter Jackson.

It is not true.

Especially since in the books it's made very clear that Saruman's Uruk-hai are Orks bred with men.

It's got to be the one line in all 3 films which has confused people.

Just remember: it's wrong! [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

(This mistake is as bad as how he's got the Easterlings pegged as Southrons (physical description, FLAGS!, etc) for years, and not noticed!)
__________________
"For I am Olrin! And Olrin means me!"

ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"
Olorin_TLA is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:59 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.