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Old 10-17-2002, 05:28 PM   #1
GildorInglorion
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Sting Possibility of war in 4:th age

I have been thinking; Every age has ended with a great war. Could that possibly happen in the fourth age?

Who or what could gather a new force of evil?
Silmarillion states that all balrogs dissapeared but A FEW who hid deep beneath the earth. One was killed in Moria but there are probably others.
Shelob is still alive but personaly i think she isn't able to rule an empire.
The barrow-wights seem powerful???

And the good forces are much weaker than in the third age. No elves, no istari, and also and no real threat which will probably result in less educated soldiers.
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Old 10-17-2002, 06:42 PM   #2
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I have no clue. There's no powerful dark lord left. The balrogs aren't quite rulers. I always thought that the 4th age was the now, because of the prologue in the Hobbit.
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Old 10-17-2002, 07:00 PM   #3
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The 4th age... World diminishes. Eleves leave. Dwarves dig deeper and become forgotten fable. Istari leave. Nazgul disappear. Few pools of magic good and evil remain... Tom Bombadil in a forest, barrow wights in their cairns... some Balrog in its cave... "spiderdemon" in its hidden lair... as there was in many legend places of good and evil enchantment generations after magic was gone.

Time of mortals has come.

I just loved a short story in a Finnish Tolkien enhusiasts zine some years ago. It was of 4th age. It was of orkish slaves in Gondor. Of a mutual hate between master and slave. Of a gentleness, tenderness and love that bridged this gap and of the last remaining elf witnessing it from distance. It also told of the both lovers getting stoned to death by their own kin for attempting to spread word of reconciliation and peace.

End of epic tales. Time for mortal wars...


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Old 10-17-2002, 07:08 PM   #4
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End of epic tales. That might be the very Sad truth...
No balrog have rissen to start WW3, and Bin Laden is not nearly as interesting. I don't like the idea of the fouth age being us (even though it's true)
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Old 10-17-2002, 07:29 PM   #5
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Sting

I have to agree with ya. I mean, it's written about how hobbits NOW hide from big people. I think the problem is that the other races had issues. The Elves, being immortal, were old, and tired of life in many ways. They wanted their place back in valinor. Its a good bet that they left solely because they were so old. The Dwarves disappeared because they were made by Aule and with imperfection; they were smiths and nothing else. Delving into mountains was all they did. Hobbits... well, they were always reclusive. Evil things died out because the armies were gone. The orcs had no leaders left, and I doubt they wanted to comee out anytime soon. Balrogs had been asleep for a while.

As it is said, it was the dawn of men. Our time to step up. And Men have endured so long because, in Iluvatar's words; we were given the gift of creation and idealism. Our lives are too short to have the problems of the elves. We are curious. Life is exciting, though short. We had no natural ESP or metaphysical power like elves seem to, so our reliance on our wits and endurance has honed it constantly.
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Old 10-18-2002, 03:23 AM   #6
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Sting

I think the 4th War would be fought by men with men. And it would be long, tedious, and with no clear victory on either side, kinda like on our earth now.
But lets not forget that ME is ME, and our earth is not ME. You knew that, right?
I saw a fictional map of 4th age ME once - I forget where - and it resembled our earth more than I would have wished. It was funny, but the humour was bitter. All I remember of it is the 'Socialist Republic of the Hobbits' where the Shire used to be. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
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Old 10-18-2002, 04:52 AM   #7
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Silmaril

What a strange coincidence, Evisse - I just found that one today while looking for other maps. Look here for Middle-Earth: 1999! Very funny!

However, Tolkien himself did not consider our time as the Fourth Age, but very likely Seventh Age. I will try to look up references for specifics - one of our own members' name bears witness to this: Child of the 7th Age.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]
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Old 10-18-2002, 06:25 AM   #8
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After the war of wrath, Morgoth was improsoned in the void outside the world.
But it's said somewhere in the Silmarillion (doesn' have it here) that he will return, and Manwë will descend his mountain etc

The first time Morgoth was captured I think it was for three ages. But after the WoW I don't remember a time-limit. Can anyone help me out here? Three ages would mean that he could beg for mercy at the end of the fourth age (or the beginning of the fifth?.)
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Old 10-18-2002, 07:23 AM   #9
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Silmaril

There's a brief reference (I think in UT, but I haven't got my copy to hand so can't quote it to you) in the passage discussiong the istari. It suggests that the blue wizards (who went into the East and we don't know what happened to them) were the founders of 'cults' that outlived the demise of Sauron. This idea suggests to me the distinct possibility of religious wars, although I don't know if JRRT elaborated on this idea at all. It would tie nicely in with earth history, though.
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Old 10-18-2002, 05:54 PM   #10
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Battle in the fourth age...Hmm
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

well, if you're talking early 4th age, LoTR mentions that Eomer and Aragorn fought together many times, presumably against Easterlings and Haradrim. Tolkien's unfinished (well, barely started!) 4th age novel seemedto be leading towards strife in Gondor,perhaps a civil war of some sort?

On the question of 'ages', would anyone like to have a go at giving speculative dates? Here's mine -
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
4th age - upto last ice age ~10,000BC
5th age - upto end of Roman Empire ~400AD
6th age - upto end of WWII -1945
7th age - ????
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Old 10-18-2002, 11:15 PM   #11
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Silmaril

I really don't believe there could have been a war that ended the 4th age mainly because there was no real threat to put it in danger of ending. I don't think Balrogs had the genius to mass war on ME and neither did Orcs or Barrow Wights.
And for the good forces being weaker without elves or Istari, men were stronger than ever under the leadership of Aragorn and Eomer.
Gandalf was the only Istari out of the three known wizards of Middle-earth who actually completed the task The Valar had sent them for, the Battle of The Pelennor Fields and on the plains of Mordor were fought mostly by men without major reliance on the elves.
Just goes to show you shouldn't underestimate the power of mortals [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 10-18-2002, 11:33 PM   #12
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Sting

Ok, first off a reply to a comment earlier about without any enemy the soldiers going uneducated, that would be untrue, look at our world now, in peace time the armies get atronger not weaker, and second off, you all have frogotten the main relm that is still intact that could pose a threat, if any, Harad. and we must also not froget the impending exploration of middle earth, for what we know from Tolkien's maps are most likley partly untrue, much as early Birttans' maps, there could be a whole entire continent in middle earth that is undescovered, and as my paople mentioned about ME being earth, what I belive is that the Pangea theory partly u could say, I belive that the Me we know, eventuially over millions of millenia into "our" Pangea, whicih then formed the world we know as Earth. Also, if there was to be a war at the end of the fourth age, it would not be between the humans, for the most part, because the capitols of the main mortal Empires, if I should call them that at this time were very very close together geologicly. And last, there may not be a dark lord now, but there may arise a new one at a point. Thank you and Meow
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Old 10-19-2002, 05:44 PM   #13
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Regarding the Fourth and Seventh Age. According to a footnote in the Letters, the ages are now passing by more swiftly that they did in the past. At the time JRRT wrote the letter he postulated that we were in the late 6th or early 7th age. Since we are a number of years from that letter, my name assumes we've taken the leap over into the Seventh Age.

So whatever took place in the Fourth Age is long behind us.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit
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