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Old 07-03-2019, 06:23 AM   #1
Huinesoron
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Elves visiting Numenor

Okay, so:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silm: Akallabeth
But the wise among [the Numenoreans] knew that this distant land was not indeed the Blessed Realm of Valinor, but was Avallónë, the haven of the Eldar upon Eressëa, easternmost of the Undying Lands. And thence at times the Firstborn still would come sailing to Númenor in oarless boats, as white birds flying from the sunset. And they brought to Númenor many gifts: birds of song, and fragrant flowers, and herbs of great virtue. And a seedling they brought of Celeborn, the White Tree that grew in the midst of Eressëa; and that was in its turn a seedling of Galathilion the Tree of Túna, the image of Telperion that Yavanna gave to the Eldar in the Blessed Realm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UT: Description of the Island of Numenor
At the centre of the Bay of Eldanna was the most beautiful of all the havens of Númenor, Eldalondë the Green; and hither in the earlier days the swift white ships of the Eldar of Eressëa came most often.

... Of the Elves of Eressëa in the days of their friendship they had at times gifts of gold and silver and jewels; but such things were rare and prized in all the earlier centuries, until the power of the Kings was spread to the coasts of the East.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UT: Aldarion and Erendis
In the morning before the feast Aldarion gazed out from the window of the bedchamber, which looked west-over-sea. "See, Erendis!" he cried. "There is a ship speeding to haven; and it is no ship of Númenor, but one such as neither you nor I shall ever set foot upon, even if we would." Then Erendis looked forth, and she saw a tall white ship, with white birds turning in the sunlight all about it; and its sails glimmered with silver as with foam at the stem it rode towards the harbour. Thus the Eldar graced the wedding of Erendis, for love of the people of the Westlands, who were closest in their friendship. Their ship was laden with flowers for the adornment of the feast, so that all that sat there, when evening was come, were crowned with elanor and sweet lissuin whose fragrance brings heart's ease. Minstrels they brought also, singers who remembered songs of: Elves and Men in the days of Nargothrond and Gondolin long ago; and many of the Eldar high and fair were seated among Men at the tables. But the people of Andúnië, looking upon the blissful company, said that none were more fair than Erendis; and they said that her eyes were as bright as were the eyes of Morwen Eledhwen of old," or even as those of Avallónë.

Many gifts the Eldar brought also. To Aldarion they gave a sapling tree, whose bark was snow-white, and its stem straight, strong and pliant as it were of steel; but it was not yet in leaf. "I thank you," said Aldarion to the Elves. "The wood of such a tree must be precious indeed."
Quote:
Originally Posted by UT: Aldarion and Erendis (note)
This note further states that although Sindarin as used for a long period by mortal Men tended to become divergent and dialectal, this process was largely checked in Númenor, at least among the nobles and the learned, by their contact with the Eldar of Eressëa and Lindon.
It's clear that in the early days of Numenor, there was a fair amount of traffic between there and Eressea. The elves of Tol Eressea were those who sailed West from Middle-earth, and at this point in time that means returnees and Sindarin refugees from Beleriand. So my question is... who? Are there any named characters who could have made that journey? (Or, to put it another way: are there any named characters known to have sailed to Eressea after the War of Wrath?)

I think House Finwe are mostly out of luck: they're almost all either dead, or hanging around in Middle-earth. There's a few exceptions, though:

-Idril definitely sailed West, with her husband, but the Silm is pretty cagey about what happened to her:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silm: Of Tuor
In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the Sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Eärrámë, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.
It's generally assumed she and Tuor made it to Aman... so could they have come back to visit their descendents? It's a charming idea, but I feel like a) some mention would have been made of the fact, and b) the fact that the author of the Quenta didn't know for sure implies that she didn't.

-Earendil and Elwing are probably another no, because of the injunction that they never set foot in Middle-earth again. Numenor, blessed though it is, is one of the Mortal Lands, so I assume they'd be banned there too.

-... Finrod? Finrod has promise. Silm tells us plainly: But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar. In other words, he did not stay long in Mandos. How long is not long? Well, the Grey Annals contain a similar claim ([he] dwells now in Valinor with Amarie), and are introduced by the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoME XI: The Grey Annals
These are the Annals of Beleriand as they were made by the Sindar, the Grey Elves of Doriath and the Havens, and enlarged from the records and memories of the remnant of the Noldor of Nargothrond and Gondolin at the Mouths of Sirion, whence they were brought back into the West.
So Finrod's rebirth was already known before Earendil sailed West, and... well, it's hard to imagine Beleriand's premier diplomat and mortal-lover not wanting to pay a visit to the grandest of Mortal realms. Is there any evidence against this idea?

-... is that it? Is that the entire Returning branch of House Finwe prior to Galadriel? I think it might actually be. Yikes.

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Old 07-03-2019, 07:39 AM   #2
William Cloud Hicklin
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-... is that it? Is that the entire Returning branch of House Finwe prior to Galadriel? I think it might actually be. Yikes.
Mandos doesn't kid around.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:24 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Originally Posted by HoME XI: The Grey Annals
These are the Annals of Beleriand as they were made by the Sindar, the Grey Elves of Doriath and the Havens, and enlarged from the records and memories of the remnant of the Noldor of Nargothrond and Gondolin at the Mouths of Sirion, whence they were brought back into the West.
Just to add, this early 1950s description is, in context, part of the Elfwine-Pengolodh transmission. And to give Tolkien a little more elbow room here, it's arguable that both Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals were (ultimately) not to be considered in-world texts at all, even if mined for a replacement Tale of Years.

I realize we use the texts we have, so to speak, but I like to remind/annoy that the Numenorean-Bilbo transmission seems to have more "fully" bloomed in the 1960s (the speculated date of AAm* throws me a bit here, but so be it with respect to this text and its Numenorean introduction).


In the revised Fellowship of the Ring, from Note on the Shire Records, it's said: "It was probably at Great Smials that The Tales of Years was put together (*represented in much reduced form in Appendix B as far as the end of the Third Age. ( . . .) It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistance and information from Rivendell, which he visited more than once."

In fuller context the emphasis for this reduced form appears to concern the Second and Third Ages, possibly/arguably leaving room for more explanation concerning authorship with respect to the First Age section.

Or something.

____________________

When is "now" (Finrod in Aman)? In a late text about Glorfindel Tolkien makes a rather notable point about any of the Exiles not being allowed to return to bodily life in Aman before the War of Wrath and the pardon of the Valar. So much so that he (in my opinion) "feels forced" to come up with more that one reason to allow Glorfindel to break that rule (that's another story).

Yep, somehow I know how Tolkien felt when he wrote about Glorfindel


Anyway JRRT actually published (RGEO) that Galadriel was under a special ban from returning West due to her role in leading the Exiles.

A role she shared with Finrod.

Finrod is special in my book, and awesome, but "when" did he walk in Aman back in his own body? Also [sidenote] in the early 1950s, it appears that Finrod would have been walking in Aman with a new body, at least given what we read about Elven reincarnation in the later 1950s, this idea itself revised even later.


I think Tolkien had some work to do here

Last edited by Galin; 07-16-2019 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 07-17-2019, 06:53 AM   #4
Huinesoron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galin View Post
I realize we use the texts we have, so to speak, but I like to remind/annoy that the Numenorean-Bilbo transmission seems to have more "fully" bloomed in the 1960s (the speculated date of AAm* throws me a bit here, but so be it with respect to this text and its Numenorean introduction).
This is a generally excellent post, but I want to poke at this point a little more. If we assume that the Great Tales as they came down to us are Bilbo's translations from Numenorean texts, then how did they know that Finrod was out and about again?

-Messages during the First Age, presumably by dream from Ulmo, but potentially brought back by Luthien and Beren on their rebirth. (Credit for this notion goes, I believe, to Philosopher@Large, though she may have cribbed it from somewhere else.)

-Messages brought during the War of Wrath, by the soldiers involved.

-Finrod himself actually showing up in the War of Wrath. Because the Valar would be utterly dense not to take the one person they have to hand who actually knows the country Out East. ^_^ I realise this is a very implausible notion.

-Messages brought to Numenor by visitors from Eressea, possibly including Finrod himself. This is far and away the simplest transmission. Vardamir Nolimon was a noted scholar, and a credible source for at least some Numenorean Transmission texts due to that; he would totally have asked for any extra details the visiting Eldar could give him.

-Umm... and after that we're left with wizards and Glorfindel. At which point, if someone were making edits, they'd probably note in the Gondolin section that Glorfindel was back, right?

Taking all this into account, it seems likely to me that the Eresseans reported to the Numenoreans (and most likely to Vardamir) that Finrod was back. They didn't say the same about Glorfindel, implying that this was the early Second Age, before he was restored - again, pointing the finger at Vardamir.

hS
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:56 AM   #5
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I like your approach HS. So far, my own reaction to this detail has been: it gets ink because it "must" be so.

In other words, the matter isn't so much a certainty due to word of mouth, but a conclusion drawn by later writers.
If I recall correctly, there's a specific revision concerning the Lay of Leithian being Numenorean in authorship, and the actual revision to Finrod's dying words ("long rest" and so on) in the Lay Recommenced is very interesting compared to the QS tradition.

For myself, I think this is a good candidate for one of those details that varies due to source, at least QS versus the Lay of Leithian, but I have no compelling evidence that Tolkien agreed with me, or was headed that way.

I forgot to read JRRT's mind about this.


At a glance it seems odd to me that Galadriel should be banned from Aman until late in the Third Age, and Finrod not, given that the emphasis on her ban appears to be a role that Finrod shared. If so, if Finrod "really" stayed long in Mandos, it sort of lines up, in a sense, with the Galadriel case.


But as that idea also burns the other side of my toast . . .


On The Other Hand

In my opinion Finrod arguably proved his case (so to speak) in the Valar's eyes, in life and death (even before being sent to Mandos), at least earlier than his sister, who remained too proud and power hungry at the end of the First Age (despite Melian I guess), learning and changing over the years, until at last the One marches into her realm and she rejects it, passing the great test.

She also remained "too alive" into the Third Age in any case

It makes sense to me, given the heart and mind that Finrod displays in the tales, that a poet could draw this conclusion. To my mind it's difficult to imagine Finrod not being pardoned along with the other Noldor -- while (again) after the War of Wrath, Galadriel proudly answers that she had no wish to return anyway.

There is also this possible approach I think: Finrod says what he believes will happen to him, in humility. Doesn't mean the Valar see things the same way.


Again I'm not against an actual message being brought to Numenor here. As I say I like the approach, I just need to chew on it more, given that I'm old(ish) and set in my Entish ways.


And I realize my notion of "poet's assumption of truth given Finrod's arguable greatness" seems about as thin as a wilwarin wing, but such wings can be fair to look at.


Last edited by Galin; 07-17-2019 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 07-17-2019, 04:52 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
Mandos doesn't kid around.
I imagine he wasn't the life of the party.
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Old 07-18-2019, 09:58 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galin View Post
Just to add, this early 1950s description is, in context, part of the Elfwine-Pengolodh transmission. And to give Tolkien a little more elbow room here, it's arguable that both Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals were (ultimately) not to be considered in-world texts at all, even if mined for a replacement Tale of Years.

I realize we use the texts we have, so to speak, but I like to remind/annoy that the Numenorean-Bilbo transmission seems to have more "fully" bloomed in the 1960s (the speculated date of AAm* throws me a bit here, but so be it with respect to this text and its Numenorean introduction).


In the revised Fellowship of the Ring, from Note on the Shire Records, it's said: "It was probably at Great Smials that The Tales of Years was put together (*represented in much reduced form in Appendix B as far as the end of the Third Age. ( . . .) It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistance and information from Rivendell, which he visited more than once."

In fuller context the emphasis for this reduced form appears to concern the Second and Third Ages, possibly/arguably leaving room for more explanation concerning authorship with respect to the First Age section.

Or something.

____________________

When is "now" (Finrod in Aman)? In a late text about Glorfindel Tolkien makes a rather notable point about any of the Exiles not being allowed to return to bodily life in Aman before the War of Wrath and the pardon of the Valar. So much so that he (in my opinion) "feels forced" to come up with more that one reason to allow Glorfindel to break that rule (that's another story).

Yep, somehow I know how Tolkien felt when he wrote about Glorfindel


Anyway JRRT actually published (RGEO) that Galadriel was under a special ban from returning West due to her role in leading the Exiles.

A role she shared with Finrod.

Finrod is special in my book, and awesome, but "when" did he walk in Aman back in his own body? Also [sidenote] in the early 1950s, it appears that Finrod would have been walking in Aman with a new body, at least given what we read about Elven reincarnation in the later 1950s, this idea itself revised even later.


I think Tolkien had some work to do here
Quote:
even if mined for a replacement Tale of Years.
At least externally, AAm and GA were mined extensively for main Silmarillion text; this of course was the consequence of Tolkien's inevitable tendency to expand "annals" into "historical narrative."

Quote:
*represented in much reduced form in Appendix B as far as the end of the Third Age.
Tolkien's wry reference to the fact that his original, much more detailed Tale of Years had been cut back to the bone at his publishers' insistence.

Quote:
the speculated date of AAm* throws me a bit here
There's nothing especially mystifying here; Tolkien made an earlier pass at a round-world cosmology but didn't like it so went back to flat-world- until he changed his mind again.

More interesting is the Downfall of Anadune, with its fully Adunaic nomenclature. At this time (mid-late 1940s) it seems that T thought of Numenorean sources as using their own tongue, not Noldorin. Which in turn implies that at the time the Noldorin/Quenya texts were deemed to be of Elvish provenance, presumably (and sometimes explicitly) Pengolodh/Aelfwine. The mannish-tradition theory seems to be mid-late 1960s.

-------------------

Finrod and Galadriel: In one of the several versions of her story, T wrote that she "proudly replied that she had no wish to" (repent and) return. Echoes of Sauron! As to Finrod- heroic sacrifice was obviously a Plenary Indulgence to Mandos. T wrote explicitly that that was a big reason Glorfindel got out early, and Finrod of course exemplified the trope from the moment he agreed to leave Nargothrond with Beren, despite having no earthly reason to do so beyond the oath he had sworn to Barahir.
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Old 07-18-2019, 05:57 PM   #8
Galin
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Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
There's nothing especially mystifying here; Tolkien made an earlier pass at a round-world cosmology but didn't like it so went back to flat-world- until he changed his mind again.
I mean with respect to the Numenorean transmission preamble that begins AAM*. If I recall correctly, Christopher Tolkien's stab at a date for AAM* is early 1950s.

The earlier pass at a Round World Ainulindale (version C*) appears to have been written "before the writing of the Return of the King" (CJRT) or at least before The Lord of the Rings was finished . . . and in any case, Elfwine still appears in Ainulindale C*, as I read the description in Morgoth's Ring anyway.


It's true, I guess we can say that there's nothing especially mystifying with Tolkien changing his mind, but what "throws me a bit" is: Christopher Tolkien's statement on dating AAM*: "There seems no way to determine with certainty when it was made, and I can only record my feeling that it belongs with the writing of the AAm manuscript rather than to some later time. At any rate my father soon abandoned it (see, p. 80)." CJRT, section 1 AAm*


No problem. But I think even CJRT would admit that this reads pretty uncertain, while, if I may be so bold, the Numenorean preamble at least, arguably fits better with the later 1950s, where Numenor mixes with Myths Transformed.

If not so be it. It doesn't throw me that much

In other words, the Numenorean transmission Preamble to AAM*, if it lives in the early 1950s, seems fairly "surrounded" by the old Elfwine-Pengolodh transmission.
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