Beleg and Bombadil - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gwaihir the Windlord · 08-20-2003, 02:55 AM

While browsing through the Lays of Belerian (HoME 3) last night, the thought occured to me when I read this about Beleg.

(CT's commentry)

Quote:

Some very curious things are said of Beleg in the peom [Lay of the Children of Hurin]. He is twice called 'the son of the wilderness who wist no sire', and at line 416 he is 'Beleg the ageless'. There seems to be a mystery about him that sets him apart... from the Elves of Thingol's lordship...

(Just as a note, the book also says that Beleg started out as a Man in Tolkien's earliest writings. He underwent a lot of modification over several years.)

When a read this, I thought of Bombadil. At this stage of the development of the mythology, as far as I know, Tom had not yet been conceived of; it is possible that Tolkien, at this time, had thoughts of a Bombadil-like enigma that was originally designed as the character of Beleg.

Beleg, even at this early stage, is obviously not quite the same person as Bombadil. His personal traits are different for one thing, but the similar anomalous principle may be there. Obviously later revised to apply (in a more advanced form) to the much more aptly-implied Bombadil.

Interesting, isn't it? Just a small observation of mine.

FingolfintheBold · 08-21-2003, 09:42 PM

Thats very interesting. I think youcould be right about Beleg almost being an early draft of Bombadil, so to speak, though obviously a totally different character from what we know.
Of course, such references could have been elven hyperbole or something. Calling him agless could refer to his valor in battle or something along those lines. Good topic!

Gwaihir the Windlord · 08-22-2003, 03:08 AM

Yes, well I thought it was interesting anyway. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

***Sharkû*** · 08-22-2003, 07:46 AM

We might just have an early conception of one of the Elven Firstborn here. Also bear in mind that he seems to have a beard in the old painting Beleg Finds Gwindor.

Maéglin · 08-23-2003, 03:40 AM

Wouldnt the reference to him being 'ageless' just mean that he is of Elvenkind. After all Elves do not really 'age' after a certain point in their growth, not in the manner of man anyways.

Lord of Angmar · 08-23-2003, 10:23 AM

That is a very interesting observation, Gwaihir. I never knew much about Beleg's history. Although I am sure that Beleg is not Bombadil (which nobody is actually implying and which seems impossible since, er, Beleg was killed), it may be that Tolkien's ideas and writings of Bombadil stemmed in some way (consciously or otherwise) from his creation of Beleg Strongbow.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 08-25-2003, 02:48 AM

True, Sharku. And true as well, Maeglin; although there is something rather strange (as CRRT asserts, his quote (which refers to some of the things JRRT wrote about him) is posted in the thread-starter) about Beleg in his early draftings.

Quote:

it may be that Tolkien's ideas and writings of Bombadil stemmed in some way (consciously or otherwise) from his creation of Beleg Strongbow.

What I was suggesting, rather, was that this Bombadilian theme or character was simply something that JRRT had a tendency to invent in hs mythology. At first, he may have done it through Beleg -- Bombadil would therefore be the developed version.

(This thread doesn't really have that large a discussion capacity, and we can't really talk about this with anything other than an air of speculation. A speculative little topic is all this is. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])

StarJewel · 08-29-2003, 09:23 PM

Beleg is my fave character in the Silm, and I would love to find out more about him. HoME 3 is the only Book of Lost Tales that I have, since the bookstores in my town are, er, somewhat lacking. I never drew the parallel between Beleg and Bombadil. Great topic, Gwaihir!

Corwyn Celesil · 08-29-2003, 09:53 PM

StarJewel, I agree with you about Beleg: he is probably my favorite character, too. In fact, I named a constellation after him. (I am not much for astronomy, so I don't know the constellations' real names, so I give them Tolkienesque names.) Sorry; I've gotten somewhat off the thread subject.

08-21-2003, 09:42 PM	#2
FingolfintheBold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Somewhere between knowing my path and walking it Posts: 69	Thats very interesting. I think youcould be right about Beleg almost being an early draft of Bombadil, so to speak, though obviously a totally different character from what we know. Of course, such references could have been elven hyperbole or something. Calling him agless could refer to his valor in battle or something along those lines. Good topic! __________________ There long the golden leaves have grown, upon the branching years, while here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven-tears... but if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me, what ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea?

08-23-2003, 10:23 AM	#6
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	That is a very interesting observation, Gwaihir. I never knew much about Beleg's history. Although I am sure that Beleg is not Bombadil (which nobody is actually implying and which seems impossible since, er, Beleg was killed), it may be that Tolkien's ideas and writings of Bombadil stemmed in some way (consciously or otherwise) from his creation of Beleg Strongbow. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

08-29-2003, 09:23 PM	#8
StarJewel Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: I'm in my dear Maedhros' arms, dreaming the day away. Oh, who am I kidding, Chicago is nothing like that! Posts: 116	Beleg is my fave character in the Silm, and I would love to find out more about him. HoME 3 is the only Book of Lost Tales that I have, since the bookstores in my town are, er, somewhat lacking. I never drew the parallel between Beleg and Bombadil. Great topic, Gwaihir! __________________ Visit my writing site...if you dare http://www.fanfiction.net/~mirielamarian

08-29-2003, 09:53 PM	#9
Corwyn Celesil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The House of the Fountain, Gondolin Posts: 57	StarJewel, I agree with you about Beleg: he is probably my favorite character, too. In fact, I named a constellation after him. (I am not much for astronomy, so I don't know the constellations' real names, so I give them Tolkienesque names.) Sorry; I've gotten somewhat off the thread subject. __________________ Then came there from the south of the city the people of the Fountain, and Ecthelion was their lord, and silver and diamonds were their delight; and swords very long and bright and pale did they wield . . .

08-22-2003, 03:08 AM	#3
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	Yes, well I thought it was interesting anyway. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

08-22-2003, 07:46 AM	#4
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,721	We might just have an early conception of one of the Elven Firstborn here. Also bear in mind that he seems to have a beard in the old painting Beleg Finds Gwindor.

08-23-2003, 03:40 AM	#5
Maéglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 99	Wouldnt the reference to him being 'ageless' just mean that he is of Elvenkind. After all Elves do not really 'age' after a certain point in their growth, not in the manner of man anyways.