Balrog and The One Ring

[skytree]

Did Tolkien ever speculate on what would have occurred if the Balrog had gained the Ring when the Fellowship passed through Moria?

[Inziladun]

I can't recall Tolkien ever discussing it. My opinion is that the Balrog was aware of the Ring's presence, and was drawn to the Fellowship because of it.

If it had gained the Ring, I see no reason why it couldn't have made use of the contained power to become greater than Sauron.
Then again, what would the Balrog have done with that power? Since it was apparently content to hang out in Mordor and be a big fish in a small pond, I wonder what sort of motivation it might have found to do anything else.

[Marwhini]

I will need to dig through the HoM-e books dealing with the writing of the LotR, but I do recall a comment on the subject of the Balrog and its relationship to Sauron.

If I recall correctly, there were rather a lot of interrelated issues concerning the Balrog.

Foremost among them was that Gandalf knew that something must be done about the Balrog to prevent it from becoming an ally of Sauron. So this was one of Gandalf's motivations for the trip through Moria: To scout the Balrog, and ascertain its motivations and goals (and to "deal with it" should the opportunity arise).

I cannot recall Tolkien touching upon the Balrog gaining the One Ring, but I am certain that the thought crossed his mind.

The trick here is whether the Balrog would even have wanted the One Ring (at least for itself).

Most people do a spit-take on this, and exclaim "What-the-What???!!! Why would the Balrog NOT want the One Ring???"

And here you get tangled up in the origins of Balrogs, Sauron, and the corruption of Maia, and their individual goals and reasons for being corrupted.

Both Sauron and the Balrogs still serve Morgoth, even if they remain concerned for their own temporal power within Middle-earth.

And Sauron was, in the Hierarchy of "Middle-earth Hell" the remaining Authority for Morgoth.

In the Cosmology, Morgoth was supposed to eventually re-enter, bodily, Arda by crossing over the Walls of Night. And it could be that Tolkien imagined his Servants seeking to facilitate this.

To that end, Sauron having the One Ring would make that eventuality much more likely than the Balrog having it (and the Balrog would likely know this).

Like I said.... Here we get into a tangled web of the goals and intentions of "Evil" and "Corrupted" spirits/souls in Middle-earth, and things like allegiance, slavery (of the mind and/or body), the corrupted "nature" (psychology) of those fallen to Evil and "Morgothism," as well as to the Loyalty of Morgoth's Ainur Servants (It seems to be only his "Slaves" - Orcs, and Trolls, and other such corruptions or Life - that gave him problems of "rebellion" against his Will, in the same way that Morgoth rebelled against Eru Ilúvatar).

We have to remember that Sauron continued to Worship Morgoth as the Rightful Ruler of Arda. See his behavior at leading Númenóre into Morgothism, and his perverting Humanity after their awakening to the same thing as described in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. Sauron also established such Worship of Morgoth among the Easterlings and Haradrim. Thus Sauron remained "Loyal" even though he sought to establish Temporal Dominion over the peoples of Middle-earth (recall from Morgoth's Ring that Morgoth's goal was dominion over the physical realm of Arda - the "stuff" out of which "creation" was made, rather than dominion over the people - he seems to have delegated this to Sauron, who was more focused upon the dominion over other's Will than was Morgoth).

The question would then be:

"How Loyal to Morgoth would the Balrog have remained?"

My personal feeling is that the Balrog would have little personal interest in the One Ring, as the Balrogs seemed to have cared more about chaotic violence and destruction than they did for dominating the wills of others.

And thus the Balrog would likely believe that delivering the One Ring to Sauron would best further the Balrog's personal goals of sowing chaos and destruction, and of seeking for the return of Morgoth from beyond the Walls of Night.

MB

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

We have to remember that Sauron continued to Worship Morgoth as the Rightful Ruler of Arda. See his behavior at leading Númenóre into Morgothism, and his perverting Humanity after their awakening to the same thing as described in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. Sauron also established such Worship of Morgoth among the Easterlings and Haradrim. Thus Sauron remained "Loyal" even though he sought to establish Temporal Dominion over the peoples of Middle-earth (recall from Morgoth's Ring that Morgoth's goal was dominion over the physical realm of Arda - the "stuff" out of which "creation" was made, rather than dominion over the people - he seems to have delegated this to Sauron, who was more focused upon the dominion over other's Will than was Morgoth).

The question would then be:

"How Loyal to Morgoth would the Balrog have remained?"

My personal feeling is that the Balrog would have little personal interest in the One Ring, as the Balrogs seemed to have cared more about chaotic violence and destruction than they did for dominating the wills of others.

And thus the Balrog would likely believe that delivering the One Ring to Sauron would best further the Balrog's personal goals of sowing chaos and destruction, and of seeking for the return of Morgoth from beyond the Walls of Night.

Speculation is nice, but in this case the speculation is based on the Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath, something that a Balrog hiding in the nether regions of Moria since the end of the 1st Age would know absolutely nothing about. For all the Balrog knew, Morgoth was gone for good, banished with the terrible retribution of the Valar (hence the Balrog hiding in fear of being found out).

And what did Sauron know about the Second Prophecy, or care for that matter? Using Morgoth as a prop to build a religion around would certainly be easier selling to the Numenoreans than erecting totems to himself, a prisoner of Numenor. No, by the time of the War of the Ring, it would seem Sauron's only interest was Sauron, of regaining the One Ring, and his mastery of Middle-earth, figuring that the Valar had abandoned the world once Morgoth was imprisoned, and imprisoned with a finality that was much different than when Morgoth was a hostage in Valinor (and Sauron remained the good servant, ruling in his master's stead).

As far as the Balrog and the One Ring, there is zero information that I can find. Who knows what it would have done? Rather like Smaug devouring Bilbo and having access to the One Ring, I can't see a being of such power and evil intent simply surrendering it to Sauron. Power begets power and greed overpowers all.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Speculation is nice, but in this case the speculation is based on the Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath, something that a Balrog hiding in the nether regions of Moria since the end of the 1st Age would know absolutely nothing about. For all the Balrog knew, Morgoth was gone for good, banished with the terrible retribution of the Valar (hence the Balrog hiding in fear of being found out).

And what did Sauron know about the Second Prophecy, or care for that matter? Using Morgoth as a prop to build a religion around would certainly be easier selling to the Numenoreans than erecting totems to himself, a prisoner of Numenor. No, by the time of the War of the Ring, it would seem Sauron's only interest was Sauron, of regaining the One Ring, and his mastery of Middle-earth, figuring that the Valar had abandoned the world once Morgoth was imprisoned, and imprisoned with a finality that was much different than when Morgoth was a hostage in Valinor (and Sauron remained the good servant, ruling in his master's stead).

As far as the Balrog and the One Ring, there is zero information that I can find. Who knows what it would have done? Rather like Smaug devouring Bilbo and having access to the One Ring, I can't see a being of such power and evil intent simply surrendering it to Sauron. Power begets power and greed overpowers all.

In Morgoth's Ring, and elsewhere (I will have a look around), Tolkien points out that No Ainur may be killed, nor their life ended by any but Eru himself.

Both the Balrog and Sauron would know this was well, both being products of the "Mind of God." So both would well know that Morgoth remained "Alive" (or intact), and simply beyond the "Circles of the World."

Both would know that Morgoth (and indeed many of his original Servants and Slaves) had previously travelled outside the Circles of the World into the Void, and returned (Morgoth even hiding there for a time from the Valar).

The only difference at this point would be his binding by the chain Angainor (and perhaps blindfolding and gagging, as he was when first brought into the Ring of Doom after his first capture by the Valar).

And they would know that the world was still Marred by his effused presence within the World as a consequence of the Ainulindalë.

So his returning to within the Circles of the World should not be such an outlandish thing to seek.

If Sauron was so certain that his Lord was gone forever, he would not have set-up the Númenóreans to the Worship of Morgothism, but would instead have made himself the object of veneration.

In the Metaphysics Tolkien imagines for Middle-earth, he actually uses the words "Luciferian," "Devil," and "Satan" to describe Morgoth.

In Christian Mythology, the Servants and Slaves of Satan do not abandon Satan, even though they know that Satan is trapped within Hell until the "End-of-Times" (In Dantë, Satan is trapped, frozen within the Ice of the Ninth Circle of Hell). Yet the Demons who remain "free" to travel between Hell and the Earth continue to serve their Master, even though he remains trapped.

Why would Middle-earth's "Satan" and Daemonic Servants have different roles?

And there does seem to be a somewhat rigid authoritarian hierarchy within Morgoth's Servants and Slaves.

As for what they would have done with the One Ring....

I don't know, exactly.

But I suspect that the Balrog's desires, goals, and intentions are different from Sauron's, regardless of whatever the relationship to the One Ring might be for either.


MB

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

in Morgoth's Ring, and elsewhere, Tolkien points out that No Ainur may be killed, nor their life ended by any but Eru himself.

Both the Balrog and Sauron would know this was well, both being products of the "Mind of God."


But there does seem to be a somewhat rigid authoritarian hierarchy within Morgoth's Servants and Slaves.

As for what they would have done with the One Ring....

I don't know, exactly.

But I suspect that the Balrog's desires, goals, and intentions are different from Sauron's, regardless of the relationship to the One Ring.

But what would Sauron think with the hand of Eru violently drowning Numenor, destroying the greatest armada ever assembled under Ar-Pharazon, and reshaping the very earth itself after interceding for the Valar? What would Sauron think when his own ruin was almost encompassed in that vengeful tidal wave initiated by Illuvatar Himself? Sauron could not possibly hold any hope for Morgoth's release when the hand of God was against him. And Sauron indeed knew it was Eru who had caused the great tumult:

"For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon the sea and land."

Like Morgoth, Sauron's reach had exceeded his grasp, and Sauron decided that Valinor was out of reach of Middle-earth forever. He would concentrate his power on the sole dominion of the world that is as Tyrannus Imperator and God of this World, eschewing any thought of Morgoth's return.

As for the Balrog, it was an age and more that it was under any direction from his Dark Lord, Morgorth. The Balrog was a Maia, like Sauron, and seeing Gandalf's fearful denial of the Ring and Saruman's descent from greatness to degeneracy at the mere consideration of holding the Ring, would not the Balrog, too, succumb to the Ring's lure? The Balrog was not like the Wraiths, beholden to Sauron for their existence and enslaved by Rings of their own. He was not some automaton moving at the behest of Sauron. He would not blithely surrender up such a thing as powerful and tempting as the One Ring because Tolkien was quite specific about the effects on even the greatest of beings.