Sauron's great mistake - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lord of Angmar · 06-30-2003, 10:55 AM

It seems to me that Sauron made a few blunders, particularly in regards to Numenor. As we know, he bewitched King Ar-Pharazon into attempting war on the Valar and thus ruining Numenor. However, given his ultimate goal of becoming lord of the Middle Earth, and given the fact that he must have known an assault upon Aman would surely be fruitless, why didn't Sauron instead try to convince the Numenoreans to attempt to entirely conquer Middle Earth and then use his powerful sway over Ar-Pharazon to usurp the throne? Since in the Third Age his goal was to control all of Middle Earth, and no more ambitious then that, surely he must have realized his mistake in not using the Numenoreans to achieve his purpose.

Finwe · 06-30-2003, 10:59 AM

I think that he wanted to get rid of the Numenoreans first, then he would take over "the world" himself. He wanted to show that they were just arrogant fools, who would do anything. He wanted to completely discredit them in the eyes of the other inhabitants of Middle-earth.

Lord of Angmar · 06-30-2003, 11:06 AM

But surely he could have used their extremely mighty force to take over Middle Earth, since it seemed as if he had almost complete control over them. And Surely he must have known of the Elendili and known that they could provide an obstacle in his dominion over ME. Why then did he not simply tell Ar-Pharazon to take command of Middle-Earth, then usurp the throne, which I'm sure he could easily have done given the mindset of the majority of the King's Men (they called him a god at one point). He could have then gotten rid of the Elendili and taken control of the strongest force of Men ever. Of course, this would be an unhappy ending and leave no room for the LotR, but bare with me. The only way it could be happy is if once again the Valar intervened to save the day...

Gorthol · 06-30-2003, 11:45 AM

I think the answer lies maybe within *what* the numenoreans were longing for, everlasting life. They thought they could wrest this with force from the Valar. Remember that Ar-Pharazon was already "Lord of Middle-earth" as far as anything goes.. Fighting elves in Middle-earth would not bring him closer to his goal of becoming imortal.

Quote:

At length Ar-Pharazôn listened to this counsel, for he felt the waining of his days and was besotted by the fear of Death. He prepared then the greatest armament that the world had seen."

Sauron also despised the race of men and I don't think he wanted more interaction with them than what was absolutely necessary.

Elendil did leave Numenorë with only 9 ships, hardly more noticable by Sauron than "the Witch Kings" reaction of Master Samwise's crawl in the mud "like a worm".

Lord of Angmar · 06-30-2003, 11:55 AM

Ahh I see, very good point. But I just do not fully understand why he would want the Numenoreans to destroy themselves when they were already under his power. Could he not have told Ar-Pharazon that the Numenoreans could only assail Valinor and claim Immortality if first they had conquered all the lands of Middle Earth and had all the military forces possible under their dominion? Then again, perhaps his plan was simply to forever estrange the Valar from the Atani... although that goal was never really achieved anyway...

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

Finwe · 06-30-2003, 02:56 PM

He didn't want the power of the Numenoreans, he wanted to see them destroy themselves. He hated them, with every evil bone in his body. He knew that with them gone, he would be able to take over Middle-earth. He just wanted them gone.

akhtene · 07-02-2003, 08:14 PM

Quote:

they (numenorians) were already under his power.

I'd say yes, but only due to the encouraged attack on Valinor. I don't believe that even the fallen Numenorians had any grievances against M-E.

Besides, I suppose, time should also be considered. Ar-Pharazon gave ear to Sauron as he wasn't young any more and "was besotted by the fear of death" The qonquest of the whole M-E would have taken years! Could the King afford such time? + the risk of getting killed in a battle? I don't suppose he could agree, even if Sauron suggested that course of action.

Lord of Angmar · 07-02-2003, 09:50 PM

He gave ear to Sauron partly because of his fear of death, yes, but he took counsel from Sauron even before Sauron's suggestion that they assail Valinor. You say that you don't think even the fallen Numenoreans would do his bidding, yet they revered him as a God and he even taught them to worship Morgoth! I believe it is safe to say he held considerable sway over their thoughts and deeds.

06-30-2003, 10:55 AM	#1
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Sauron's great mistake It seems to me that Sauron made a few blunders, particularly in regards to Numenor. As we know, he bewitched King Ar-Pharazon into attempting war on the Valar and thus ruining Numenor. However, given his ultimate goal of becoming lord of the Middle Earth, and given the fact that he must have known an assault upon Aman would surely be fruitless, why didn't Sauron instead try to convince the Numenoreans to attempt to entirely conquer Middle Earth and then use his powerful sway over Ar-Pharazon to usurp the throne? Since in the Third Age his goal was to control all of Middle Earth, and no more ambitious then that, surely he must have realized his mistake in not using the Numenoreans to achieve his purpose. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

06-30-2003, 10:59 AM	#2
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I think that he wanted to get rid of the Numenoreans first, then he would take over "the world" himself. He wanted to show that they were just arrogant fools, who would do anything. He wanted to completely discredit them in the eyes of the other inhabitants of Middle-earth. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

06-30-2003, 11:06 AM	#3
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	But surely he could have used their extremely mighty force to take over Middle Earth, since it seemed as if he had almost complete control over them. And Surely he must have known of the Elendili and known that they could provide an obstacle in his dominion over ME. Why then did he not simply tell Ar-Pharazon to take command of Middle-Earth, then usurp the throne, which I'm sure he could easily have done given the mindset of the majority of the King's Men (they called him a god at one point). He could have then gotten rid of the Elendili and taken control of the strongest force of Men ever. Of course, this would be an unhappy ending and leave no room for the LotR, but bare with me. The only way it could be happy is if once again the Valar intervened to save the day... __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

06-30-2003, 11:55 AM	#5
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Ahh I see, very good point. But I just do not fully understand why he would want the Numenoreans to destroy themselves when they were already under his power. Could he not have told Ar-Pharazon that the Numenoreans could only assail Valinor and claim Immortality if first they had conquered all the lands of Middle Earth and had all the military forces possible under their dominion? Then again, perhaps his plan was simply to forever estrange the Valar from the Atani... although that goal was never really achieved anyway... [ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ] __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

06-30-2003, 02:56 PM	#6
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	He didn't want the power of the Numenoreans, he wanted to see them destroy themselves. He hated them, with every evil bone in his body. He knew that with them gone, he would be able to take over Middle-earth. He just wanted them gone. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

07-02-2003, 09:50 PM	#8
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	He gave ear to Sauron partly because of his fear of death, yes, but he took counsel from Sauron even before Sauron's suggestion that they assail Valinor. You say that you don't think even the fallen Numenoreans would do his bidding, yet they revered him as a God and he even taught them to worship Morgoth! I believe it is safe to say he held considerable sway over their thoughts and deeds. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.