Undyling Lands Part 2

[Arwen Melian]

Recently I posted a topic concerning all the mortal characters in LOTR who traveled to the undying lands after the One Ring was destroyed. From your replies the impression I got was that the mortals never actually were allowed into the city of Valinor and stayed on one of the nearby islands ( correct me if I am wrong). Also, that they did not become immortal once they stepped foot into this area. That it would just become a "pergatory" or a kind of peaceful waiting place for death, free of the troubles of Middle Earth. If this is so, answer me this question in your own opinion:
If the mortals ( Frodo-especially him-Samwise,Bilbo, and Gimli) were granted the "gift" of immortality once they arrived at the undying lands, (regardless of how the story actually went) how do you think their lives would be? What I mean to say is, do you think they would be happy or tire from this gift? Do you think it wise for the Valar to not permit them to become immortal ( if granting them the gift is possible ).Or do you think they were selfish or foolish not to at least permit Frodo to enter Valinor and live forever? Use your imagination. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

were granted the "gift" of immortality

Just a note - mortality was actually called the Gift of Eru.

Had the ships carrying the Fellowship sailed to Valinor, it seems likely that Sam would be interested in seeing Lorien, Frodo/Biblo might've enjoyed the company of the Vanyar and their songs/crafts, and Gimli might spend time in the mountains of Valinor, make occasional visits to Legolas (who might dwell with his kindred in Alqualondë), and get acquainted with his somewhat-creator, Aulë.

[Arwen Melian]

Ahh, this Alqualonde that you speak of sounds familiar. Is it another term for Valinor, or just a section of it? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Esgallhugwen]

I couldn't really say what Frodo would do seeing as i am not him, but he might choose to be immortal. But that brings up the point of the anniversary (if you will) of when he was stabbed by the Morgul blade and when he was bitten by Shelob, on those days he experiences great pain and misery, or would that happen when he went to Valinor? Would the Valar relieve him of his anguish? Would he be too overwhelmed by the beauty and peace there to linger on those harse thoughts..hopefully so, because I feel that's why he went there in the first place. As for Bilbo he is quite aged but perhaps he would want to live at least a few more years among that land. Gimli i'm really not sure about I don't know much about Dwarve kind, but he is a very good friend with Legolas so perhaps he would not want to part with him or perhaps he would choose his mortality so he could be with his anchestors. The Valar are merciful and kind, I truly think that they would allow the mortals to stay in Valinor although mortality was a gift of Iluvatar, so they mey not bring up that decision, seeing as it is most likely beyond their hands.

[Yavanna228]

Arwen Melian,
Alqualonde is the name of a sea-side city in Aman dwelt in by the Teleri who loved the sea too much to stay away from it. They were the late-comers to Aman, and had grown to love the sea in their time along the shores of M-E, so they built their city by the sea and had ships of great speed and renown that were later burned at Losgar by Feanor. The name Alqualonde means 'Haven of the Swans,' in reference to their ships.
Probably more than you wanted to know, but there you are. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace

[Arwen Melian]

Yavanna,
I am always grateful for more information than is needed, just for future reference. I appreciate your effort and thank you for responding to my question. Also, many thanks to the others who have but in their bit so far(Legolas and Esgallhugwen). Keep your ideas coming. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Gorthol]

From your replies the impression I got was that the mortals never actually were allowed into the city of Valinor and stayed on one of the nearby islands ( correct me if I am wrong).

They were probably allowed to go there, but most likely they lived afterwards on Tol Eressëa..

Also, that they did not become immortal once they stepped foot into this area. That it would just become a "pergatory" or a kind of peaceful waiting place for death, free of the troubles of Middle Earth.

That is correct, immortality was not to be granted by the Valar, because they had not the "right" to take away Eru's "gift" to men or interfere with it, nor could they do it, unless it was through Manwë fulfilling the wishes of Ilúvatar.

If the mortals (Frodo-especially him-Samwise, Bilbo, and Gimli) were granted the "gift" of immortality once they arrived at the undying lands, (regardless of how the story actually went) how do you think their lives would be? What I mean to say is, do you think they would be happy or tire from this gift?

Maybe they would in time be "consumed" by the glory and splendour of Aman, the light would be too strong for them. Something in line with what happened to Lúthien in the end by the Silmaril she wore when she had become a mortal..

Do you think it wise for the Valar to not permit them to become immortal ( if granting them the gift is possible ).

If it was up to the Valar to decide (which it wasn't) it would probably be wise since they knew that the light eventually would "burn them out"..

Or do you think they were selfish or foolish not to at least permit Frodo to enter Valinor and live forever? Use your imagination.

They could not take Eru's gift away, only "The One" could.

[ July 01, 2003: Message edited by: Gorthol ]

[Yavanna228]

Arwen Melian,
You said to use imagination, so I will do some postulating of my own. Since this thread is somewhat based on opinion, it may get placed in the Novices and Newcomers forum. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Well, since mortality is Eru's gift to mortals, I'm wondering how well they would be able to handle immortality. I think that the rest beyond the circles of the Earth that was given to mortals may have programmed them to actually crave it, after awhile. I don't know that Frodo, Bilbo, and the rest would be content with living forever, especially Frodo. The Valar may or may not have been able to ease his mind from all the hardships and trials he had endured. Death may have been the only cure.
I have more thoughts on this, but I'm going to wait till they sort themselves out to post them. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace

[StarJewel]

I dont think they would have lived forever, because that would mean that Eru took away his gift to Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits. Just a guess, but maybe they would have lived a very, very long time before finally leaving this world for good. Too bad we cant go and ask them ourselves [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Well, since mortality is Eru's gift to mortals, I'm wondering how well they would be able to handle immortality. I think that the rest beyond the circles of the Earth that was given to mortals may have programmed them to actually crave it, after awhile.

Even the immortals grew weary of the world.

That it would just become a "pergatory" or a kind of peaceful waiting place for death, free of the troubles of Middle Earth.

Purgatory is probably not the word you’re looking for here. Purgatory implies that one is working off wrongs they have done. What (at least the Ringbearers) were doing was being rewarded and receiving a rest from their sufferings. ‘Paradise’ might be a more appropriate term.

Sophia

[Westerly Wizard]

purgatory is a word Tolkien himself (more than once) uses to describe the occassion. However, it is not simply the Christian idea of purging one's sins (and that is the basic idea, not the more in depth one--I know), but a more broad use of the word (Tolkien knowing more about words than anybody freely used archaic definitions of everyday words that differ quite a bit). It is a purgatory, "but one of peace and healing" (letter 325), and "period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil." (letter 246).

If anything, the purgatory is not a time (here before death) of omitting guilt, but of understanding, for Frodo, that he had not failed, a coming to peace of mind.

And I think that the Ringbearers go a bit further than Eressea for their final home. In Letter 154 Tolkien writes they "may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome." Elvenhome is typically applied strictly to Eldamar on Aman. And in Letter 325,he writes that they dwelt in Aman. Though in a text in Morgoth's Ring their passage to the West is given in a paragraph discussing the passage of the Elves to Eressea, without saying the mortals too went only to the island, but also without saying more.

[Yavanna228]

I know that this doesn't directly deal with the subject at hand, but it deals with something I had said earlier on. Here is a passage from the Silmarillion that I found this morning:

The Doom of the World, they said, One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.
...
And you are punished for the rebellion of Men, you say, in which you had small part, and so it is that you die. But that was not at first appointed for a punishment. Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others?

The context is the messengers of the Valar who are talking to the Numenoreans about their want to come to the Undying Lands, and the second paragraph tells of the escape that Man's death was to be.
I know that the Numenoreans wanted to come to Aman because of their pride and the fact that they were loath to leave their glory and what they had made, and that Frodo and the rest came to Valinor because they were to rest. They were brought willingly, so I suppose that the above passage may not directly relate to the fates of the Ringbearers. Still, it's a good passage on the effect of Undying Lands on mortals.
Peace

[The Saucepan Man]

Thank you for posting that passage, Yavanna. I find the following extract quite interesting:

... and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.

That suggests that Frodo and (assuming that they arrived) Sam and Gimli would in fact have died earlier than they otherwise would have had they remained in ME.

[Gorthol]

Thank you for posting that passage, Yavanna. I find the following extract quite interesting..

Wasn't that almost what I wrote a few posts above?

Maybe they would in time be "consumed" by the glory and splendour of Aman, the light would be too strong for them. Something in line with what happened to Lúthien in the end by the Silmaril she wore when she had become a mortal..

If it was up to the Valar to decide (which it wasn't) it would probably be wise since they knew that the light eventually would "burn them out"..

[Yavanna228]

I'm sorry, Gorthol. I just thought that a quote from one of the books would cement the authority for saying such things.
Peace

[The Saucepan Man]

Wasn't that almost what I wrote a few posts above?

Yes, I had noticed that your thoughts were along the same lines, Gorthol. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] But you were talking about them being consumed by the glory of Aman "in time" and "eventually" burning out, while this reference is specifically stating that the lifespan of mortals would be shortened by residence in Aman. Not so bad for Bilbo, who had already had a fair old innings, but quite sad, if true, for Frodo, Sam and Gimli. But then again, the wonder of the place probably made up for the shortened days. And perhaps, being timeless, time appeared (to mortals) to pass slower there.