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06-27-2003, 06:57 PM | #1 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sometimes Imladris....sometimes Mirkwood...other times ....Lothlorien
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Undyling Lands Part 2
Recently I posted a topic concerning all the mortal characters in LOTR who traveled to the undying lands after the One Ring was destroyed. From your replies the impression I got was that the mortals never actually were allowed into the city of Valinor and stayed on one of the nearby islands ( correct me if I am wrong). Also, that they did not become immortal once they stepped foot into this area. That it would just become a "pergatory" or a kind of peaceful waiting place for death, free of the troubles of Middle Earth. If this is so, answer me this question in your own opinion:
If the mortals ( Frodo-especially him-Samwise,Bilbo, and Gimli) were granted the "gift" of immortality once they arrived at the undying lands, (regardless of how the story actually went) how do you think their lives would be? What I mean to say is, do you think they would be happy or tire from this gift? Do you think it wise for the Valar to not permit them to become immortal ( if granting them the gift is possible ).Or do you think they were selfish or foolish not to at least permit Frodo to enter Valinor and live forever? Use your imagination. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Maiden of Rivendell "Anything to get away from the evil monkey in my bedroom." Fine! I admit it. I am a supporter of Agent Elrond. Now would you please leave me be? |
06-27-2003, 08:15 PM | #2 | |
A Northern Soul
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Had the ships carrying the Fellowship sailed to Valinor, it seems likely that Sam would be interested in seeing Lorien, Frodo/Biblo might've enjoyed the company of the Vanyar and their songs/crafts, and Gimli might spend time in the mountains of Valinor, make occasional visits to Legolas (who might dwell with his kindred in Alqualondë), and get acquainted with his somewhat-creator, Aulë.
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06-27-2003, 08:19 PM | #3 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Ahh, this Alqualonde that you speak of sounds familiar. Is it another term for Valinor, or just a section of it? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Maiden of Rivendell "Anything to get away from the evil monkey in my bedroom." Fine! I admit it. I am a supporter of Agent Elrond. Now would you please leave me be? |
06-27-2003, 08:33 PM | #4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I couldn't really say what Frodo would do seeing as i am not him, but he might choose to be immortal. But that brings up the point of the anniversary (if you will) of when he was stabbed by the Morgul blade and when he was bitten by Shelob, on those days he experiences great pain and misery, or would that happen when he went to Valinor? Would the Valar relieve him of his anguish? Would he be too overwhelmed by the beauty and peace there to linger on those harse thoughts..hopefully so, because I feel that's why he went there in the first place. As for Bilbo he is quite aged but perhaps he would want to live at least a few more years among that land. Gimli i'm really not sure about I don't know much about Dwarve kind, but he is a very good friend with Legolas so perhaps he would not want to part with him or perhaps he would choose his mortality so he could be with his anchestors. The Valar are merciful and kind, I truly think that they would allow the mortals to stay in Valinor although mortality was a gift of Iluvatar, so they mey not bring up that decision, seeing as it is most likely beyond their hands.
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06-27-2003, 09:04 PM | #5 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2003
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Arwen Melian,
Alqualonde is the name of a sea-side city in Aman dwelt in by the Teleri who loved the sea too much to stay away from it. They were the late-comers to Aman, and had grown to love the sea in their time along the shores of M-E, so they built their city by the sea and had ships of great speed and renown that were later burned at Losgar by Feanor. The name Alqualonde means 'Haven of the Swans,' in reference to their ships. Probably more than you wanted to know, but there you are. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Peace
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06-28-2003, 02:18 PM | #6 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sometimes Imladris....sometimes Mirkwood...other times ....Lothlorien
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Yavanna,
I am always grateful for more information than is needed, just for future reference. I appreciate your effort and thank you for responding to my question. Also, many thanks to the others who have but in their bit so far(Legolas and Esgallhugwen). Keep your ideas coming. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Maiden of Rivendell "Anything to get away from the evil monkey in my bedroom." Fine! I admit it. I am a supporter of Agent Elrond. Now would you please leave me be? |
06-28-2003, 04:02 PM | #7 | |||||
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[ July 01, 2003: Message edited by: Gorthol ]
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06-28-2003, 06:56 PM | #8 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2003
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Arwen Melian,
You said to use imagination, so I will do some postulating of my own. Since this thread is somewhat based on opinion, it may get placed in the Novices and Newcomers forum. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Well, since mortality is Eru's gift to mortals, I'm wondering how well they would be able to handle immortality. I think that the rest beyond the circles of the Earth that was given to mortals may have programmed them to actually crave it, after awhile. I don't know that Frodo, Bilbo, and the rest would be content with living forever, especially Frodo. The Valar may or may not have been able to ease his mind from all the hardships and trials he had endured. Death may have been the only cure. I have more thoughts on this, but I'm going to wait till they sort themselves out to post them. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Peace
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06-29-2003, 12:18 AM | #9 |
Wight
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I dont think they would have lived forever, because that would mean that Eru took away his gift to Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits. Just a guess, but maybe they would have lived a very, very long time before finally leaving this world for good. Too bad we cant go and ask them ourselves [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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06-29-2003, 06:34 AM | #10 | ||
Scent of Simbelmynë
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Sophia
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06-30-2003, 08:21 PM | #11 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Oct 2002
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purgatory is a word Tolkien himself (more than once) uses to describe the occassion. However, it is not simply the Christian idea of purging one's sins (and that is the basic idea, not the more in depth one--I know), but a more broad use of the word (Tolkien knowing more about words than anybody freely used archaic definitions of everyday words that differ quite a bit). It is a purgatory, "but one of peace and healing" (letter 325), and "period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil." (letter 246).
If anything, the purgatory is not a time (here before death) of omitting guilt, but of understanding, for Frodo, that he had not failed, a coming to peace of mind. And I think that the Ringbearers go a bit further than Eressea for their final home. In Letter 154 Tolkien writes they "may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome." Elvenhome is typically applied strictly to Eldamar on Aman. And in Letter 325,he writes that they dwelt in Aman. Though in a text in Morgoth's Ring their passage to the West is given in a paragraph discussing the passage of the Elves to Eressea, without saying the mortals too went only to the island, but also without saying more.
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07-03-2003, 10:39 AM | #12 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I know that this doesn't directly deal with the subject at hand, but it deals with something I had said earlier on. Here is a passage from the Silmarillion that I found this morning:
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I know that the Numenoreans wanted to come to Aman because of their pride and the fact that they were loath to leave their glory and what they had made, and that Frodo and the rest came to Valinor because they were to rest. They were brought willingly, so I suppose that the above passage may not directly relate to the fates of the Ringbearers. Still, it's a good passage on the effect of Undying Lands on mortals. Peace
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07-03-2003, 11:56 AM | #13 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Thank you for posting that passage, Yavanna. I find the following extract quite interesting:
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07-03-2003, 12:38 PM | #14 | |||
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07-03-2003, 01:03 PM | #15 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I'm sorry, Gorthol. I just thought that a quote from one of the books would cement the authority for saying such things.
Peace
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07-03-2003, 05:47 PM | #16 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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