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06-15-2013, 05:18 PM | #1 |
Wight
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Luthien weilding Vilya
Let's suspend our beliefs for a bit of what we know as canon in the Tolkien universe and engage a hypothetical situation.
Let's suppose a couple of things:
With these three mighty guardians wielding the Three, can we not suppose then that their kingdoms can survive... no even resist Sauron's onslaught of his dark magic ('cause Morgoth has already diminished in his native might), or an attack led by Glaurung and the Balrogs? Or at least the most guaranteed of the three would be Luthien, who is half Maia--who wields the mightiest ring, Vilya--reviving the ruined Menegroth? Would those kingdoms in the First Age fare better if said guardians (Luthien, Galadriel, and Finrod) had employed the Three, even in Morgoth's reign? Remember the native might of the bearers as well as their elven-rings when considering their survivability.
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I am Annatar, the Lord of Gifts. Last edited by Gorthaur the Cruel; 06-15-2013 at 05:30 PM. |
06-15-2013, 05:41 PM | #2 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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Also, remember that both Elrond (a descendant of Lúthien) and Galadriel (a Valinor-born Noldo) did not think it feasible for them to resist Sauron without him possessing the One. I think your scenario is in a similar vein.
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06-16-2013, 08:29 AM | #3 | |
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I believe it was only Elrond who thought it would be futile to resist even a ringless Sauron. Remember Galadriel saying to Frodo that if her wishes had any avail, the One shouldn't have been created or remained forever lost. The underscored part is telling, knowing Sauron's strength. This implies that she can manage against Sauron so long as Nenya isn't shorn of its powers and the One remained inoperable/incapacitated state. In the ROTK appendix, it states that Lorien would not fall unless Sauron would come there himself (we can assume the kingdom would fall, but that doesn't automatically mean that Galadriel would meet a similar fate to Finrod in this contest [if it came to a face-face fight with Sauron] as she has Nenya and is innately greater than her brother). So we can imagine that even if the entire forces of Mordor (instead of Minas Tirith being attacked) and Dol Guldur were poured forth on Lothlorien, without Sauron in the presence of his armies, these combined, full attacks would still be repelled indefinitely because of the power of Galadriel. That's pretty awesome, if you ask me. And how well does she stack up against the other two hypothetical bearers in this scenarario:
Then you have Finrod who actually tasted a contest between Sauron, and though he was able to hold out for a while, he lost. But in this new scenario:
And finally Luthien. In this scenario she is resurrected and retains inherent grace and immortality:
So taking all this into account, do the Eldar not have a greater chance of survival (even in the 1st age) with all the magical trinkets and innately powerful and wise guardians? Take also the fact that the Three can arrest decay and weariness (which has a far-reaching healing and preserving effect compared to the Seven and Nine, that only enhanced their bearers and not their surrounding environment), so the curse of Mandos on weariness has no effect on wherever kingdom these rings reside.
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I am Annatar, the Lord of Gifts. Last edited by Gorthaur the Cruel; 06-16-2013 at 08:53 AM. |
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06-16-2013, 03:59 PM | #4 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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1- I think that there would still need to be a most skilled craftsman and I believe Feanor's grandson who forged these Rings, with the aid of Sauron, was closest to his grandfather in skill of hand. I can see some sort of venture to stop the fading being looked into since they were not in undying lands which was more their abode than the lands of Middle-earth.
2- I would think that Beren would probably be granted a fate like the Elves then and would have to come back as an Elf. If Finrod was sent back he would be mightier than he was when he was felled by Sauron in battle. 3- I like Felagund with Narya since he seems to be an Elf of the other people. 4- Luthien might wield the strongest Ring, but Galadriel would still be the mightiest Elf. Even when Elrond bore it she was still the greatest Elf in Middle-earth. Albiet, so long as Feanor is not around she is the top Elf. However, it is clear that no power save Sauron's could penetrate Galadriel's defenses in the 3rd Age. I think therefore that even in the 1st Age with these Rings of Power Sauron could breach the realms where the Rings were held in possession. Remember, Sauron may have been a servant but he was still a mighty Maia. It is clear that Elves can match the Maia as we have seen with the feats of the Noldor in the 1st Age. Obviously aside from Galadriel the new bearers are stronger than Elrond, however in the 3rd Age Gandalf wielded a Ring and he would clearly be comparable to any of them. Personally I'm not sure I can see Luthien ruling any realm. She does not seem the type to want to run a principality. What of the sons of Feanor, how would they feel about these things? I don't know. Would the curse of Mandos work its way into this new discovery? I believe that a diminished Melkor is still stronger than most in Middle-earth. Also unlike the One these Rings were made for preservation. So they may have some use in the defense of one's realm they are not meant to be tools of dominion. That's not to say that they cannot be used to aid in war as Gandalf could inspire hearts and light a fire under his men with his Ring.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche Last edited by Belegorn; 06-16-2013 at 04:07 PM. |
06-22-2013, 01:58 PM | #5 | |||||||||
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I am Annatar, the Lord of Gifts. Last edited by Gorthaur the Cruel; 06-22-2013 at 02:11 PM. |
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06-23-2013, 03:10 AM | #6 |
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To look at it in terms of the stature of their Enemies rather than the wielders themselves, I can't help but feel that no Elven-Ring would have made any realm in Beleriand impregnable to the Hosts of Morgoth. Morgoth may have been frustrated had he attacked a Ring-wielder in person, mind you, but I feel as if the Elves could not have resisted indefinitely dragons and Balrogs in any significant numbers.
Sauron could only have successfully assailed Lothlórien had he come there himself; but we know that in terms of power Sauron was, in a sense, the opposite of Morgoth: with both in a weakened state (Morgoth at the end of the First Age, Sauron at the end of the Third), Sauron was more powerful in person than indirectly (due to his power being largely invested in the Ring, which he lacked) while Morgoth was more powerful 'by proxy' than in person, which is to say that by that point his powerful armies and servants were more dangerous than he was as an individual, because his power was invested in the world as a whole and everything in it, and especially the most powerful of his forces. Sauron's power was concentrated, Morgoth's diffuse. I think that may have a part to play in understanding how an attack by Morgoth's armies might deal with an Elven Ring. As an aside, it's interesting to note that in some early jotting by the Professor (as recounted in The Return of the Shadow, possibly?) he mused on an origin where the Rings were forged by Fëanor in Aman and were part of the stash of goodies Morgoth stole from Formenos - so this discussion is not an unprecedented notion!
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07-01-2013, 10:32 PM | #7 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Gorthaur, I do not recall Lúthien ever being mentioned as the prime Elf. I will cite several texts that seem to me to clearly say that Fëanor is above all others the foremost of all the Children of Iluvatar.
"Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind... of all the Children of Iluvatar" [Sil, p. 112] "his likeness has never again appeared in Arda... Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor" [p. 125] "he was mighty in body and in all the skills of the body, and supreme among the Eldar in eagerness and strength and subtlety of mind" [Morgoth's Ring, p. 236] "This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar." [p. 240] "Aulë nameth Fëanor the greatest of the Eldar, and in potency that is true." [p. 247] He was skillful, cunning, and astute in mind, and his potency is not matched by any of the Eldar according to the Valar. It was mentioned that it was not known of what substance the Silmarils were made of. It would be interesting that this creation even baffled the Valar who had a hand in the building up of Arda. Quote:
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I do agree with you about the Witch-King, for it is said that while he was searching for Gollum and the Shire, "the power of the White Ring [Nenya] he [Witch-king] would not defy, nor yet enter into Lórien." [Unfinished Tales, p. 354] Also in this same chapter Gandalf believed Sauron could overthrow Lórien and Rivendell, "And those places might have fallen, I think, if Sauron had thrown all his power against them first" [p. 345] Quote:
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"There was none to see... what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire." [The Two Towers, p. 125] Quote:
Also read Zigûr's post because the approach between the two Lord's would be different. Sauron's power was mostly poured into the Ring which is why it could be his undoing if destroyed. Morgoth poured his strength into various things and therefore in his servants you had much to worry about. As far as I know, Melkor was more likely to avoid any physical confrontation anyway. After he disposed of Fingolfin he never left his chambers again until he was taken by force. Sauron did go out several times to meet his enemies and the one where he did the most damage was in his deception of Númenor and its downfall when he went there as a voluntary prisoner. In this case he used deception because he knew his servants, none of them, could stand up to the Númenóreans.
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07-03-2013, 06:05 PM | #8 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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"These two kinsfolk [Feanor & Galadriel], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever."14
Endnote 14: "Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves." Shibboleth of Feanor, PoME
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07-04-2013, 08:13 PM | #9 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Tar that is interesting. It appears to fly in the face of everything that has been attributed to Fëanor. Look at the first quote for instance. I would assume that Lúthien was one of the Children of Iluvatar. There is a contradiction there.
"Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind... of all the Children of Iluvatar" [Sil, p. 112] There are instances where terms like these, greatest, mightiest, or fairest have been used for various characters. I'd ask if it's this one or that? Contradiction aside, whether Luthien, or Galadriel, I would say that Sauron or some other great force of Melkor's could take down any realm in the F.A. held by different bearers of the Rings. The Elves are powerful and even the really top one's like Glorfindel, who is said to be nearly equal to the Maiar, could not stop them. If he is held to be so powerful, and Galadriel who is greater imo as per, "the mightiest and fairest of all the elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil, p. 370], could have her realm toppled by a Ringless Sauron if he chose to throw all of his strength at her, then any other Elven kingdom could be destroyed no matter what Elf held a Ring of Power.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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