"Lost Tales" and Trilogy discrepancy - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Knight of Gondor · 10-26-2003, 09:28 PM

Only recently was I able to get a hold of the Lost Tales books. And I found them interesting, if for nothing more than elaborations on the Silmarillion. But why does Tolkien basically merge his ancient mythology with Earth's history?? The great island that uh...drat, I forget the name of the Sea-angel...dragged back, but Osse tried to stop him, and in the book this was put forth as the forming of England and Ireland! And it is said that the Elves faded as Men increased, and that the Lonely Isle became England, and all that...hello? Where does Frodo and Gandalf and Gondor and Isengard and Mordor and Sauron and Aragorn all come into the picture here? Did any body notice this? What's the deal?

Maéglin · 10-26-2003, 09:44 PM

Well Tolkien's mythology was originally made because he felt that England lacked any specific identify after the Norman invasion by William the Conquerer. So he made it as to compensate for this, his own mythology for how England came to be... other specifics about what islands beecame what in the British isles I cannot say, because I havent read the Lost Tales completely.

Child of the 7th Age · 10-26-2003, 11:25 PM

Maeglin is correct. Take a look at what the author says in Letter 130 from 1950:

Quote:

I was from early days aggrieved
by the poverty of my own beloved country; it had no stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought....

Quote:

Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make abody of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story.....which I would dedicate simply to: England; to my country.

At one point Tolkien envivisioned the floating isle of Tol Eressea as eventually becoming anchored as England. He also used the framing device of an English mariner as the narrator of the tales; this individual went by different names: Eriol, Aelfwine, etc. What he initially set out to do was to create a series of tales that could be regarded as another Old English text. We know that he actually translated small sections of the Lost Tales into Anglo-Saxon; perhaps he contemplated putting the whole thing into Old English!

Remember that these tales go back all the way to 1916 when Tolkien was just 25 years old. Over the years, his ideas would change and mature and the connection with "England's mythlogy" become less overt. But there are still hints of it, even in the "finished" writings that we have. One one level, the Shire and its inhabitants are obviously an idealized piece of England, perhaps Edwardian or Victorian. You can still see the city of Avalonne, an obvious allusion to Avalon of the Arthurian tales. And we still have the device of the narrator: this time loosely filled by the hobbits Bilbo and Frodo rather than ancient mariners.

So, yes! It's definitely a bit different than the later writings and simply shows the evolution of some of his themes and ideas.

sharon

[ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

***Sharkû*** · 10-27-2003, 04:49 AM

Many elements of the Lost Tales which linked ME to our present world were discarded, but the general idea that ME is not another planet, but just another past time on our Earth was always present in the Legendarium. The only things that changed were the 'links' -- the idea of England's origin as an Elven island was relatively short-lived, as was Tolkien's Lost Road idea, but the character of Ælfwine, for example, stuck around for decades (or at least reappeared). This is in turn why we have to bear in mind that the Shire may be meant to resemble England, but it certainly is not Tolkien's representation of England in the Legendarium. He well knew that there were no Victorians six to seven thousand years ago. This would supposedly come some ages later.

[ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

Gilbo · 10-27-2003, 06:07 PM

Now this may sound a bit odd, but when I read the books, so many years ago, for the first time, I got the feeling that JRRT was writng metaphoically about England, with Hitler being the Darkness in the East, and America being the West. It might have been American chauvinism, but that's how I felt. Please understand that it was years later that I finally read the Silmarillion and discovered Eru and the Valar. I am more humble now. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]null[/img] [LIST]

Child of the 7th Age · 10-27-2003, 06:19 PM

Thanks Sharku! In terms of the Shire "resemblence" is correct rather than any direct representation or allegory. But the undertones are definitely there.

Child

Maéglin · 10-29-2003, 04:35 AM

Gilbo it's understandable. You can easily apply the overall story of the LOTR to events in real life. Although why American? :P Tolkien was English mate!

Gilbo · 10-29-2003, 08:49 AM

Maeglin, I meant my chauvinism in thinking of America as The West, the land of hope for the war weary English. The error was in my less than knowledgable interpretation. As I said, it was well before my reading of The Sil. I don't mean to equate the US with the home of the Valar. Although, I'm pleased to live here. It makes me much happier than some places I've been. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

10-26-2003, 09:28 PM	#1
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	"Lost Tales" and Trilogy discrepancy Only recently was I able to get a hold of the Lost Tales books. And I found them interesting, if for nothing more than elaborations on the Silmarillion. But why does Tolkien basically merge his ancient mythology with Earth's history?? The great island that uh...drat, I forget the name of the Sea-angel...dragged back, but Osse tried to stop him, and in the book this was put forth as the forming of England and Ireland! And it is said that the Elves faded as Men increased, and that the Lonely Isle became England, and all that...hello? Where does Frodo and Gandalf and Gondor and Isengard and Mordor and Sauron and Aragorn all come into the picture here? Did any body notice this? What's the deal? __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

10-27-2003, 06:19 PM	#6
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	Thanks Sharku! In terms of the Shire "resemblence" is correct rather than any direct representation or allegory. But the undertones are definitely there. Child __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

10-26-2003, 09:44 PM	#2
Maéglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 99	Well Tolkien's mythology was originally made because he felt that England lacked any specific identify after the Norman invasion by William the Conquerer. So he made it as to compensate for this, his own mythology for how England came to be... other specifics about what islands beecame what in the British isles I cannot say, because I havent read the Lost Tales completely.

10-27-2003, 04:49 AM	#4
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,721	Many elements of the Lost Tales which linked ME to our present world were discarded, but the general idea that ME is not another planet, but just another past time on our Earth was always present in the Legendarium. The only things that changed were the 'links' -- the idea of England's origin as an Elven island was relatively short-lived, as was Tolkien's Lost Road idea, but the character of Ælfwine, for example, stuck around for decades (or at least reappeared). This is in turn why we have to bear in mind that the Shire may be meant to resemble England, but it certainly is not Tolkien's representation of England in the Legendarium. He well knew that there were no Victorians six to seven thousand years ago. This would supposedly come some ages later. [ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

10-27-2003, 06:07 PM	#5
Gilbo Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: maryland Posts: 34	Now this may sound a bit odd, but when I read the books, so many years ago, for the first time, I got the feeling that JRRT was writng metaphoically about England, with Hitler being the Darkness in the East, and America being the West. It might have been American chauvinism, but that's how I felt. Please understand that it was years later that I finally read the Silmarillion and discovered Eru and the Valar. I am more humble now. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]null[/img] [LIST]

10-29-2003, 04:35 AM	#7
Maéglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 99	Gilbo it's understandable. You can easily apply the overall story of the LOTR to events in real life. Although why American? :P Tolkien was English mate!

10-29-2003, 08:49 AM	#8
Gilbo Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: maryland Posts: 34	Maeglin, I meant my chauvinism in thinking of America as The West, the land of hope for the war weary English. The error was in my less than knowledgable interpretation. As I said, it was well before my reading of The Sil. I don't mean to equate the US with the home of the Valar. Although, I'm pleased to live here. It makes me much happier than some places I've been. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]