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Old 09-15-2015, 11:59 AM   #1
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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4 Of the coming of the Elves

Following the special desire of Arvegil145 I post here my first draft of chapter 4 Of the coming of the Elves.

Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silamrillion given in HoME 10; page 158-171. Were ever the text is different from that of including the changes introduced in the second phase (LQ2) this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
CE-EX-xx for Of the coming of the Elves, Expansion
CE-SL-xx for Of the coming of the Elves, story line

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new these is indicated by a missing > at the end of the and a missing < at the beginning of the next.
Quote:
4 Of the Coming of the Elves
<18 In all this time, since Melkor overthrew the Lamps, ... In those lands and forests Orom would often hunt; and there too at times Yavanna came, singing sorrowfully; for she was grieved at the darkness of Middle-earth and ill content that it was forsaken. But the other Valar came seldom thither CE-EX-01 <AAm save only Yavanna and Orom; and Yavanna often would walk there in the shadows, grieving because all the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was checked. And she set a sleep upon many fair things that had arisen in the Spring, both tree and herb and beast and bird, so that they should not age but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.
But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread>; and in the North Melkor built his strength, and gathered his demons about him. CE-SL-01 {These were the first made of his creatures: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named by the Noldor in later days. And in that dark time Melkor made many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world; yet the Orcs were not made until he had looked upon the Elves, and he made them in mockery of the Children of Ilvatar.}<LQ; Ch. 3; Note to 18 These were the {(}ealar{)} [footnote: 'spirit' (not incarnate, which was fea, {S[indarin]}Sindarin fae). eala 'being'.] spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named by the Noldor in later days. And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world; and his realm spread now ever southward over the Middle-earth. But the Orks, mockeries and perversions of the Children of Eru, did not appear until after the Awakening of the Elves.> {His realm spread now ever southward over the Middle-earth.} CE-EX-02 <AAm But {these}the Balrogs came not yet from the gates of Utumno, because of the watchfulness of Orom.
31 Now Orom dearly loved all the works of Yavanna, ... Yet ever his dominion spread southward over Middle-earth, for even as Orom passed the servants of Melkor would gather again; and the Earth was full of shadows and deceit.>
18a It came to pass that the Valar held council CE-EX-03 <AAm for they became troubled by the tidings that Yavanna and Orom brought from the Outer Lands>, and Yavanna spoke before them, saying: ...
And Tulkas cried aloud: ...
But at the bidding of Manw Mandos spoke ...
19 And Varda said naught, ...
Then Varda took the silver dews ... set as signs in Heaven that the {Gods}[Valar] may read: Wilwarin, Telumendil, Soronm, and Anarrma; and Menelmakar with his shining belt that forebodes the Last Battle that shall be. And high in the North as a challenge unto Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, the Valakirka, the Sickle of the {Gods}[Valar] and sign of doom. LQ; Ch. 3; Note to 19 [Footnote: Many names have these stars been given; but in the North in the Elder Days Men called them the Burning Briar. {quoth Pengolod [>} (quoth {Pengolo}[Pengolodh]){]}].
20 It is told that even as Varda ended her labours, and they were long, when first Menelmakar strode up the sky and the blue fire of Helluin flickered in the mists above the borders of the world, in that hour the Children of the Earth awoke, the First-born of Ilvatar. CE-EX-04 <Q&E
The legend of the Awaking of the Quendi
(Cuivienyarna)
While their first bodies were being made ... These three Elf-fathers are named in the ancient tales Imin, Tata, and Enel. They awoke in that order, but with little time between each; and from them, say the Eldar, the words for one, two, and three were made: the oldest of all numerals. [footnote to the text: The Eldarin words referred to are Min, Atta (or Tata), Nel. The reverse is probably historical. The Three had no names until they had developed language, and were given (or took) names after they had devised numerals (or at least the first twelve).]
Imin, Tata and Enel awoke before their spouses, and the first thing that they saw was the starsCE-SL-02{, for they woke in the early twilight before dawn}. And the next thing they saw was their destined spouses lying asleep ...
Now after a time, ... and the stars were again shining CE-SL-03{in the morrow-dim} and the elf-men were just waking.
Then Imin claimed ...
Then Tata claimed ...
Then Enel claimed ...
At length they all ... But CE-SL-04{before dawn} a wind came, and roused the elf-men, and they woke and were amazed at the stars; ...
Now Imin said: ...
And the ninety-six Quendi now spoke together, ...
Then they all set out again together, ...
But again Imin withheld his choice, ...
At length Imin said: 'It is time now that we should go on and seek more companions.' But most of the others were content. So Imin and Iminye and their twelve companions set out, and they walked long CE-SL-05{by day and by twilight} in the country about the lake, near which all the Quendi had awakened - for which reason it is called Cuivienen. But they never found any more companions, for the tale of the First Elves was complete.
And so it was that ...
Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and CE-SL-06 <later> the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars, and the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrowdim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy. CE-SL-07 For {in }those hours <editorial addition resembled most the time >in the spring of the year <editorial addition when >they had first awakened to life in Arda. But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.>
CE-EX-05 <AAm 38 In the changes of the world the shapes of lands and of seas have been broken and remade; rivers have not kept their courses, neither have mountains remained steadfast; and to {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen] there is no returning. ...
39 Long the Quendi ...
40 At this time also, it is said, ...
{ 1085}
41 And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years) it chanced that ... he heard afar off many voices singing. CE-EX-05.5{
}42 Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited.{ And when Orom looked upon them he was filled with wonder, as though they were things unforeseen and unimagined; and he loved the Quendi, and named them Eldar, the people of the stars. }
43 Yet many of the Quendi were adread at his coming. ...
44 Thus it was that when Nahar neighed and Orom indeed came among them, ...
45 But of those hapless who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living hath descended into the pits of Utumno, or hath explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressa: that all those of the Quendi that came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty and wickedness were corrupted and enslaved. CE-EX-06{Thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orkor in envy and mockery of the Eldar, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.} CE-EX-07 <Myths Transformed, Text VIII: Orcs It does however seem best to view Melkor's corrupting power as always starting, at least, in the moral or theological level. Any creature that took him for Lord (and especially those who blasphemously called him Father or Creator) became soon corrupted in all parts of its being, the fea dragging down the hroa in its descent into {Morgoth}[Melkor]ism: hate and destruction. As for Elves being 'immortal': they in fact only had enormously long lives, and were themselves physically 'wearing out', and suffering a slow progressive weakening of their bodies.>
CE-EX-08 < Myths Transformed, Text IX The Elves from their earliest times invented and used a word or words with a base (o)rok to denote anything that caused fear and/or horror. It would originally have been applied to 'phantoms' (spirits assuming visible forms) as well as to any independently existing creatures. Its application (in all Elvish tongues) specifically to the creatures called Orks{ - so I shall spell it in The Silmarillion -} was later.> CE-EX-09 <Q&E, Appendix C: Elvish names for the Orcs The Orcs of the later wars, after the escape of Melkor{-Morgoth} and his return to Middle-earth, were neither spirits nor phantoms, but living creatures, capable of speech and of some crafts and organization, or at least capable of learning such things from higher creatures or from their Master. They bred and multiplied rapidly whenever left undisturbed.> For the Orkor had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of IlvatarCE-EX-10{; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance thereof, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the Beginning: so say the wise}. CE-EX-11 <Letter to Mrs, Munby There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known>. CE-EX-12 <Q&E, Appendix C: Elvish names for the Orcs It is unlikely, as a consideration of the ultimate origin of this race CE-EX-13{would }makes clearer, that the Quendi had met any Orcs of this kind, before their finding by Orome and the separation of Eldar and Avari.
But it is known that Melkor had become aware of the Quendi before the Valar began their war against him, and the joy of the Elves in Middle-earth had already been darkened by shadows of fear. Dreadful shapes had begun to haunt the borders of their dwellings, and some of their people vanished into the darkness and were heard of no more. Some of these things may have been phantoms and delusions; but some were, no doubt, shapes taken by the servants of Melkor, mocking and degrading the very forms of the Children. For Melkor had in his service great numbers of the Maiar, who had the power, as had their Master, of taking visible and tangible shape in Arda.>
CE-EX-14 <Myths Transformed, Text X: Orcs The origin of the Orcs is a matter of debate. Some have called them the Melkorohini, the Children of Melkor; but the wiser say: nay, the slaves of Melkor, but not his children; for Melkor had no children. Nonetheless, it was by the malice of Melkor that the Orcs arose, and plainly they were meant by him to be a mockery of the Children of Eru, being bred to be wholly subservient to his will and filled with unappeasable hatred of Elves and Men.
CE-EX-15{Now the Orcs of the later wars, ... before the coming of Orome to Cuivienen.}
Those who believe that the Orcs were bred from some kind of Men, captured and perverted by Melkor, assert that it was impossible for the Quendi to have known of Orcs before the Separation and the departure of the Eldar. CE-SL-08{For though the time of the awakening of Men is not known, even the calculations of the loremasters that place it earliest do not assign it a date long before the Great March began, certainly not long enough before it to allow for the corruption of Men into Orcs.} On the other hand, it is plain that soon after his return {Morgoth}[Melkor] had at his command a great number of these creatures, with whom he ere long began to attack the Elves. There was still less time between his return and these first assaults for the breeding of Orcs and for the transfer of their hosts westward.
This view of the origin of the Orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. ...
But the Orcs were not of this kind. [footnote to the text: The orks, it is true, sometimes appear to have been reduced to a condition very similar, though there remains actually a profound difference. ... and soon died or slew themselves.
Other originally independent creatures, and Men among them (but neither Elves nor Dwarves), ... a great expense of will. {Morgoth}[Melkor] though in origin possessed of vast power was finite; ... so dissipated his powers of mind that {Morgoth}[Melkor]'s overthrow became possible. ... Then they might neglect his orders.] They were certainly dominated by their Master, but his dominion was by fear, ... They were capable of acting on their own, doing evil deeds unbidden for their own sport; or if {Morgoth}[Melkor] and his agents were far away, they might neglect his commands. CE-EX-16{They sometimes fought [> }They hated one another and often fought{]} among themselves, to the detriment of {Morgoth}[Melkor]'s plans.
Moreover, the Orcs continued to live and breed and to carry on their business of ravaging and plundering after {Morgoth}[Melkor] was overthrown. ...
This last point was not well understood in the Elder Days. ... Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men[footnote to the text: Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs.] CE-EX-17<Myths Transformed, Text VIII: Orcs ; but by practising when embodied procreation they would {(cf. Melian) [}become{]} more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, {like Sauron, }be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).>
Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of {Morgoth}[Melkor] or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. CE-EX-18{There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.}
But even before this wickedness of {Morgoth}[Melkor] was suspected ... If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.[footnote to the text: Few Orcs ever did so in the Elder Days, and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf. For one thing {Morgoth}[Melkor] had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that the Elves were crueller than themselves, taking captives only for 'amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need).] This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.>
CE-EX-19 <Myths Transformed, Text X: Orcs It is CE-EX-20 {thus }probably to Sauron that we may look for a solution of the problem of chronology. Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, ...
We may assume, ... though the beginning of their actual breeding must await the awakening of CE-SL-09{Men}[Elves]. CE-EX-21 <Myths Transformed, Text VIII: Orcs These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.>
When Melkor was made captive, ... before Melkor came back at last CE-EX-22{, as Morgoth the Black Enemy}, and sent them forth to bring ruin upon all that was fair.> CE-EX-23 <AAmThis maybe was the vilest deed of Melkor and the most hateful to Eru.>CE-EX-24 <editorial addition
Of the captivity of Melkor
>CE-EX-25<AAm Themselves {they}the Elves named the Quendi CE-SL-10 {, whom we call Elves (quoth lfwine)}; but Orom named them in their own tongue Eldar, ...
And Orom looking upon the Elves was filled with love and wonder, as though they were beings sudden and marvellous and unforetold. For {[}so{]} it shall ...
Thus it was that Orom came upon the Quendi by chance in his wandering, while they dwelt yet silent {upon [read }beside{]} the star-lit mere, {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen], Water of Awakening, in the East of Middle-earth. For a while he abode with them. CE-SL-11 {and aided them in the making of language; ... and yet were amazed at what he told; but}<LQ; Ch. 3; Note to 19 Then swiftly he rode back over land and sea to Valinor, filled with the thought of the beauty of the long-awaited, and he brought the tidings to Valmar. CE-EX-26 <LT Orom {pricks}pricked over the plain, and drawing rein he {shouts}shouted aloud so that all the ears in Valmar may hear him: Tulielto! Tulieito! They have come - they have come! Then he {stands}stood midway between the Two Trees and {winds}wound his horn, and the gates of Valmar {are}were opened, and the Vali trooped into the plain, for they guessed that tidings of wonder {have}had come into the world. Then spake Orom: Behold the woods of the Great Lands, even in Palisor the midmost region where the pinewoods murmur unceasingly, are full of a strange noise. There did I wander, and lo! 'twas as if folk arose betimes beneath the latest stars. There was a stir among the distant trees and words were spoken suddenly, and feet went to and fro. Then did I CE-EX-27{say what is this deed that Palrien my mother has wrought in secret, and I sought her out and questioned her, and she answered: This is no work of mine, but the hand of one far greater did this.} think: 'Ilvatar hath awakened his children at the last - ride home to Valinor and tell the {Gods}[Valar] that the Eldar have come indeed!{}
Then shouted all the people of Valinor: I-Eldar tulier - the Eldar have come - and it was not until that hour that the {Gods}[Valar] knew that their joy had contained a flaw, or that they had waited in hunger for its completion, but now they knew that the world had been an empty place beset with loneliness having no children for her own.> And the {Gods}[Valar] rejoiced, and yet were in doubt amid their mirth, and they debated what counsel it were best now to take to guard the Elves from the shadow of Melkor. At once Orom returned to {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen], and he abode there long among the Elves, and aided them in the making of language; for that was their first work of craft upon Earth, and ever the dearest to their hearts, and sweet was the Elven-tongue on the ears of the Valar. But> Manw sat long upon Taniquetil deep in thought, and he sought the counsel of Ilvatar. And coming then down to Valmar he called a conclave of the Great, and thither came even Ulmo from the Outer Sea.
And Manw said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows of Melkor.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aul was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife{.} CE-EX-28 <LT ; and of the redes there spoken the {Gods}[Valar] devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aul and the wide knowledge of Manw. Behold, Aul now gathered six metals, ...
But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with greatpower - and to entxeat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to overcome him by force or guile, and set him in a bondage from which there should be no escape.>
CE-EX-29 <MT; VI The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of {his}Melkors sphere of influence.> 21 But now the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in the strength of war, resolving to assault the CE-SL-12{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor in the North{ and make an end}. CE-EX-30 <LT Now as Aul smithied the {Gods}[Valar] arrayed themselves in armour, CE-EX-31{ which they had of Makar, and he was fain to see them} putting on weapons and going as to warCE-EX-32{, howso their wrath be directed against Melko}. But when the great {Gods}[Valar] and all their folk were armed, then Manw climbed into his blue chariot whose three horses were the whitest that roamed in Orom's domain, and his hand bore a great white bow that would shoot an arrow like a gust of wind across the widest seas. CE-EX-33{Fionwe his son stood behind him and Nornore}[Enw] who was his herald ran before; but Orom rode alone upon CE-EX-34{a chestnut}[Nahar his] horse and had a spear, and Tulkas strode mightily beside his stirrup, having a tunic of hide and a brazen belt and no weapon save a gauntlet upon his right hand, iron-bound. CE-EX-35{Telimektar his son but just war-high was by his shoulder with a long sword girt about his waist by a silver girdle. }There rode the {Fanturi}[Fanturi] upon a car of black, and there was a black horse upon the side of Mandos and a dappled grey upon the side of Lrin, and Salmar and Omar came behind running speedily, but Aul who was late tarrying overlong at his smithy came last, and he was not armed, but caught up his long-handled hammer as he left his forge and fared hastily to the borders of the Shadowy Sea, and the fathoms of his chain were borne behind by four of his smithy-folk.
Upon those shores Falman-Oss met them and drew them across on a mighty raft whereon he himself sat in shimmering mail; but Ulmo Vailimo was far ahead roaring in his deep-sea car and trumpeting in wrath upon a horn of conches. Thus was it that the {Gods}[Valar] got them over the sea and through the isles, and set foot upon the wide lands, and marched in great power and anger ever more to the North. Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.> Never did Melkor forget ... and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the {Gods}[Valar]. In those days the shape of Middle-earth was changed and broken and the seas were moved. CE-SL-36{ Tulkas it was who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him}CE-EX-36 <AAm
48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, ...
{ 1092-1100}
49 That siege was long and grievous, ...
{ 1099}
CE-EX-37 <LT There in the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar Ringil {they}[the Valar] came upon the huge gates of deep {Utumna}[Utumno], and {Melko}[Melkor] shut them with great clangour before their faces.
Then Tulkas angered smote them thunderously with his great fist, and they rang and stirred not, but Orom alighting grasped his horn and blew such a blast thereon that they fled open instantly, and Manw raised his immeasurable voice and bade {Melko}[Mekor] come forth.> 50 {It}Thus it came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken and its halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden CE-EX-38 {a host of}<AAm, late scribbeld changes his> Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained <AAm, late scribbeld changes faithfull to him>, and they assailed the standard of Manw, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.>
CE-EX-39 <MT; VI But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming 'CE-EX-40{the Morgoth, }a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), {+}plus his agents'. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the CE-EX-41{Morgoth}[tyrant]' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a powerlevel with the Valar. The Valar {find}found that they {can}could deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they {come}came at last to Utumno itself and {find}found that {'the Morgoth'}[Melkor] {has}had no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. CE-EX-42 <LT {and now they follow}And now the Valar followed Manw and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil magic, and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof.> Manw at last {faces}faced Melkor again, as he {has}had not done since he entered Arda. Both {are}were amazed: Manw to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he {has}had now less personal force than Manw, and {can}could no longer daunt him with his gaze.
{Either }Manw {must tell}told him {so or}/and/ he {must }himself suddenly {realize (or both) }realized that this {has}had happened: he {is}had 'dispersed'. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, {has}had become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (/as it /possibly was by absolute and unfeigned selfabasement and repentance only) he {cannot}could not bring himself to do it. [footnote to the text: One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', CE-EX-43{Orcs, Balrogs, etc. }power of recuperation and multiplication. So that they will gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power has gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control.] {As with all other characters there must be}/In/ a trembling moment {when it is}/he was/ in the balance: he nearly {repents}repented - and {does}did not, and {becomes}became much wickeder, and more foolish.
Possibly (and he {thinks}thought it possible) he could now at that moment be humiliated against his own will and 'chained' - if and before his dispersed forces {reassemble}reassembled. So - as soon as he {has}had mentally rejected repentance - he (just like Sauron afterwards on this model) {makes}made a mockery of selfabasement and repentance. From which actually he {gets}got a kind of perverted pleasure as in desecrating something holy - [for the mere contemplating of the possibility of genuine repentance, if that did not come specially then as a direct grace from Eru, was at least one last flicker of his true primeval nature.] He {feigns}feigned remorse and repentance. He actually {kneels}kneeled before Manw and {surrenders}surrendered - in the first instance to avoid being chained by the Chain Angainor, which once upon him he {fears}feared would not ever be able to be shaken off. But also suddenly he {has}had the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he {offers}offered to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he {has}had done. It {is}was this offer which {seduces}seduced or {deludes}deluded Manw - Manw {must be shown to have}/had/ his own inherent fault (though not sin) [footnote to the text: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]: he {has}had become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering - even 'keeping the status quo' - to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he {grants}granted Melkor's prayer.
CE-EX-44 <LT Tulkas and Ulmo {break}brook the gates of {Utumna}[Utumno] and {pile}piled hills of stone upon them. And the saps and cavernous places beneath the surface of the earth are full yet of the dark spirits that were prisoned that day when {Melko}[Melkor] was taken, and yet many are the ways whereby they find the outer world from time to time - from fissures where they shriek with the voices of the tide on rocky coasts, down dark water-ways that wind unseen for many leagues, or out of the blue arches where the glaciers of {Melko}[Melkor] find their end.
After these things did the {Gods}[Valar] return to Valmar by long ways and dark, guarding Melko every moment, and he gnawed his consuming rage.> Melkor {is}was taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas[footnote to the text: Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that any one less than Eru can redress this, or rewrite the tale of Arda.] who {follows}followed bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).
CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is} a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the Vali great and small{, lying bound before the silver chair of Manw}. Against him {speaketh}spoke Oss, and Orom, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vana in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violenceCE-EX-46{; yet Makar still spake for him, although not warmly, for said he: "'Twerean ill thing if peace were for always: already no blow echoes ever in the eternal quietude of Valinor, wherefore, if one might neither see deed of battle nor riotous joy even in the world without, then 'twould be irksome indeed, and I for one long not for such times!"} Thereat arose {Palrien}[Kementri] in sorrow and tears, ... but {Melko}[Melkor] CE-SL-14{writhed}[simmered] in rage at the name of Eldar and of Men and at his own impotence.
Now Aul mightily backed her in this and after him many else of the {Gods}[Valar], yet Mandos and Lrin held their peace, ... Liever would he have CE-SL-15{unchained Melko and }fought {him}Melkor then and there alone upon the plain of Valinor, ... and was moved by the speech of {Palrien}[Kementri], yet was it his thought that {Melko}[Melkor] was an Ainu and powerful beyond measure for the future good or evil of the world; wherefore he put away harshness.> But at the council Melkor {is}was not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}was remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress).
Then {he begins}Melkor began to doubt the wisdom of his own policy, and would have rejected it all and burst out into flaming rebellion - but he {is}was now absolutely isolated from his agents and in enemy territory. He {cannot}/could not do this/. Therefore he {swallows}swallowed the bitter pill (but it greatly {increases}increased his hate, and he ever {afterward}afterwards accused Manw of being faithless).> CE-EX-47{and}And he was {bound with the chain Angainor that Aul had wrought, and} led captive CE-SL-16<moved from below into prison in the halls of Mandos, from whence none have ever escaped save by the will of Mandos and Manw, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. ... There was Melkor doomed to abide for {seven [> }three{]} ages long, ere his cause should be tried again, or he should sue for pardon>; and the world had peace for a great age. Nonetheless the CE-SL-17{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor{ at Utumno} had many mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under earth, ... awaiting a more evil hour. CE-SL-18{
22 But when the Battle was ended ... or he should sue for pardon.}
23 Then again the {Gods}[Valar] were gathered in council ... and they were filled moreover with the love of the beauty of the Elves and desired their fellowship. CE-EX-48 <LT Then {she}Yavanna looked upon Laurelin and her heart thought of the fruitful orchards in Valmar, and she whispered to Tuivana who sat beside her, {gazing upon the tender grace of those Eldar}; then those twain said to Manw: Lo! the Earth and its shadows are no place for creatures so fair, whom only the heart and mind of Ilvatar have conceived. Fair are the pine-forests and the thickets, but they are full of {unelfin}unelvish spirits and Mandos' CE-EX-49{children}[folk] walk abroad and vassals of {Melko}[Melkor] lurk in strange places - and we ourselves would not be without the sight of this sweet folk. ... Then arose a clamour among the {Gods}[Valar] and the most spake for {Palrien}[Kementri] and Vana, whereas CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world? {In this Measse backed him, and }Mandos and {Fui}[Ninna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else; yet was Varda vehement in support of Yavanna and Tuivana, and indeed her love for the Eldar has ever been the greatest of all the folk of Valinor; and Aul and Lrin, Orom and NessaCE-EX-51{ and Ulmo most mightily} proclaimed their desire for the bidding of the Eldar to dwell among the {Gods}[Valar].
Wherefore, albeit Oss spake cautiously against it belike out of that ever-smouldering jealousy and rebellion he felt against Ulmo - it was the voice of the council that the Eldar should be bidden, and the {Gods}[Valar] awaited but the judgement of Manw. CE-SL-19{Behold even Melko seeing ... and spoken for the freedom of the Elves.}
Maybe indeed had the {Gods}[Valar] decided otherwise the world had been a fairer place now and the Eldar a happier folk, but never would they have achieved such glory, knowledge, and beauty as they did of old, and still less would any of {Melko}[Melkor]'s redes have benefited them.
Now having hearkened to all that was said Manw gave judgement and was glad, for indeed his heart leaned of itself to the leading of the Eldar from the dusky world to the light of Valinor.> At the last, therefore, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor, there to be gathered at the knees of the {Gods}[Valar] in the light of the blessed Trees for ever. And Mandos who had spoken not at all in the debate broke silence and said: 'So it is doomed.' CE-EX-52 <AAm And Orom bore the message of the Valar to {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen].> For of this summons came many woes that after befell; yet those who hold that the Valar erred, thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the Earth, and seeking to wrest the will of Ilvatar to their own pleasure, speak with the {tongues [read }tongue{]} of Melkor.
Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling to hearken to the summons, for they had as yet seen the Valar only in their wrath as they went to war, save Orom alone, and they were filled with dread. CE-EX-53 <LT Now once more {is}was a council set and Manw sitteth before the {Gods}[Valar] there amid the Two Trees - and those had now borne light for four ages. Every one of the Vali fare thither, even Ulmo Vailimo in great haste from the Outer Seas, and his face is eager and glad. CE-SL-20{
On that day Manw released Melko ... and humble cheer.
}At length it is the word of the {Gods}[Valar] that some of the newcomer Eldar be bidden to Valinor, there to speak to Manw and his people, telling of their coming into the world and of the desires that it awakened in them.> Therefore Orom was sent again to them, and he chose from among them three ambassadors; and he brought them to Valmar.
CE-EX-54{These were Ingw and Finw and Elw, who after were kings of the Three Kindreds of the Eldar; and coming they were filled with awe by the glory and majesty of the Valar and desired greatly the light and splendour of the Trees. Therefore they returned and counselled the Elves to remove into the West, and the greater part of the people hearkened to their counsel.} CE-EX-55 <AAm And three only of the chieftains of the Quendi were willing to adventure the journey: Ingw, Finw, and Elw, who afterward were kings.
56 And after they had dwelt in Valinor a while, > {55 The three Elf-lords were brought, therefore, to Valmar, and there spoke with Manw and the Valar; and they were filled with awe, but the beauty and splendour of the land of Valinor overcame their fear, and they desired the Light of the Trees.} CE-EX-56 <LT {Behold}behold now brought by {Nornore}[Enw] the three Elves stood before the {Gods}[Valar], and it was at that time the changing of the lights, ...
But {Noleme}[Finw] answering said: ...
Then Manw saw that Ilvatar had wiped from the minds of the Eldar all knowledge of the manner of their coming, and that the {Gods}[Valar] might not discover it; and he was filled with deep astonishment.{} Turning to the three Eldar he said: Go ye back now to your kindreds and {Nornore}[Enw] shall bring you swiftly there, even to {Koivie-neni}[Cuivienen] in Palisor. Behold, this is the word of Manw Sulimo, and the voice of the Valar's desire, that the people of the Eldali, the Children of Ilvatar, fare to Valinor, and there dwell in the splendour of Laurelin and the radiance of Silpion and know the happiness of the {Gods}[Valar]. An abode of surpassing beauty shall they possess, and the {Gods}[Valar] will aid them in its building.
Thereto answered {Inwe}[Ingw]: ... Thereafter {Nornore}[Enw] guided those Elves back to the bare margins of {Koivie-neni}[Cuivienen], and standing upon a boulder {Inwe}[Ingw] spake the embassy to all those hosts of the Eldali that Ilvatar waked first upon the Earth, and all such as heard his words were filled with desire to see the faces of the {Gods}[Valar].
When {Nornore}[Enw] returning told the Valar that the Elves were indeed coming and that Ilvatar had set already a great multitude upon the Earth, the {Gods}[Valar] made mighty preparation. Behold Aul {gathers}gathered his tools and stuffs and Yavanna and Tuivana wandered about the plain even to the foothills of the mountains and the bare coasts of the Shadowy Seas, seeking them a home and an abiding-place; but Orom goeth straightway out of Valinor into the forests whose every darkling glade he knew and every dim path had traversed, for he purposed to guide the troops of the Eldar from Palisor over all the wide lands west till they came to the confines of the Great Sea.>
CE-EX-57 <AAm 57 Then befell the first sundering of the Elvenfolk. For the kindred of Ingw, and the most part of the kindreds of Finw and Olw, were swayed by the words of their lords, and were willing to depart and follow Orom.> This they did of their free will, and yet were swayed by the majesty of the {Gods}[Valar], ere their own wisdom was full grown. The Elves that obeyed the summons and followed the three kings are called the Eldar, by the name that Orom gave them; for he was their guide and led them at the last unto Valinor. CE-EX-58{Yet there were many who preferred the starlight and the wide spaces of the Earth to the rumour of the glory of the Trees, and they remained behind. These are called the Avari, the Unwilling.} <AAm But the kindreds of Morw and Nurw were unwilling and refused the summons, preferring the starlight and the wide spaces of the Earth to the rumour of the Trees. Now these dwelt furthest from the waters of {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen], and wandered in the hills, and they had not seen Orom at his first coming, and of the Valar they knew no more than shapes and rumours of wrath and power as they marched to war. And mayhap the lies of Melkor concerning Orom and Nahar (that above were recalled) lived still among them, so that they feared him as a demon that would devour them. These are the Avari, the Unwilling, and they were sundered in that time from the Eldar, and met never again until many ages were past.>
CE-EX-59 <Q&E There also existed two old compounds containing *kwendi:
*kala-kwendi and *mori-kwendi, the Light-folk and the Dark- folk. ... But already before the final separation *mori-kwendi may have referred to the glooms and the clouds dimming CE-EX-60 {the sun and }the stars during the War of the Valar and Melkor, so that the term from the beginning had a tinge of scorn, implying that such folk were not averse to the shadows of Melkor upon Middle-earth.
The lineal descendants ... and powers by their association with the Valar and Maiar.>
24 The Eldar prepared now a great march from their first homes in the East. When all was made ready, Orom rode at their head upon Nahar, his white horse shod with gold; and behind him the Eldali were arrayed in three hosts. CE-EX-61 <Q&E
The Clan-names,
with notes on other names for divisions of the Eldar.
In Quenya form the names of the three great Clans were Vanyar, oldor, and Lindar. The oldest of these names was Lindar, which certainly goes back to days before the Separation. The other two probably arose in the same period, if somewhat later: their original forms may thus be given in PQ as *wanjā, *golodō, and lindā /glindā.[footnote: For the late PQ gl- as an initial variation of l- see General Phonology. Though this Clan-name has *glind- in Sindarin, the g- does not appear in Amanya Telerin, nor in Nandorin, so that in this case it may be an addition in Sindarin, which favoured and much increased initial groups of this kind.]
According to the legend, preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar, the Three Clans were in the beginning derived from the three Elf-fathers: Imin, Tata, and Enel (sc. One, Two, Three), and those whom each chose to join his following. So they had at first simply the names Minyar 'Firsts', Tatyar 'Seconds', and Nelyar 'Thirds'. These numbered, out of the original 144 Elves that first awoke, 14, 56, and 74; and these proportions were approximately maintained until the Separation.
It is said that of the small clan of the Minyar none became Avari. The Tatyar were evenly divided. The Nelyar were most reluctant to leave their lakeside homes; but they were very cohesive, and very conscious of the separate unity of their Clan (as they continued to be), so that when it became clear that their chieftains Elw and Olw were resolved to depart and would have a large following, many of those among them who had at first joined the Avari went over to the Eldar rather than be separated from their kin. The oldor indeed asserted that most of the 'Teleri' were at heart Avari, and that only the Eglain really regretted being left in Beleriand.
According to the oldorin historians the proportions, out of 144, that when the March began became Avari or Eldar were approximately so:
Minyar 14: Avari 0 Eldar 14
Tatyar 56: Avari 28 Eldar 28
Nelyar 74: Avari 28 Eldar 46 > Amanyar Teleri 20;
Sinda and Nandor 26
In the result the Noldor were the largest clan of Elves in Aman; while the Elves that remained in Middle-earth (the Moriquendi in the Quenya of Aman) outnumbered the Amanyar in the proportion of 82 to 62.
How far the descriptive Clan-names, *wanjā, *golodō, and *lindā were preserved ...
This ill-feeling descended ... that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together.>
25 The smallest host and the first to set forth was led by Ingw, the most high lord of all the Elvish race. He entered into Valinor and sits at the feet of the Powers, and all Elves revere his name; but he has never returned nor looked again upon Middle-earth. The {Lindar [> }Vanyar{]} were his folk, fairest of the Quendi; they are the High Elves, and the beloved of Manw and Varda, and few Men have spoken with them. CE-EX-62 <Q&E The name Vanyar{
This name} was probably given to the First Clan by the Noldor. They accepted it, but continued to call themselves most often by their old numerical name Minyar (since the whole of this clan had joined the Eldar and reached Aman). ...
Vanyar thus comes ...
Since the Lindar ... where the First Clan (in lore and history only) were called Miniel, pl. Mnil.>
26 Next came the Noldor, a name of wisdom. [footnote to the text: The Gnomes they may be called{ in our tongue, quoth lfwine}. ({The word that he uses is Witan. }More is said of this matter in the {Tenth}[Twentieth] Chapter where the tale speaks of the Edain.)] They are the Deep Elves, and the friends of Aul. Their lord was Finw, wisest of all the children of the world. His kindred are renowned in song, for they fought and laboured long and grievously in the northern lands of old. CE-EX-63 <LQ; Ch. 3; Note to 19 Dark is their hue and grey are their eyes>. CE-EX-64 <Q&E The name oldor{
This name} was probably older than Vanyar, and may have been made before the March. ...
The variant forms of the name: ... and knowledge derived from {Morgoth}[Melkor].
Those indeed among the Sindar who were unfriendly to the oldor attributed their supremacy in the arts and lore to their learning from Melkor{-Morgoth}. This was a falsehood, coming itself ultimately from {Morgoth}[Melkor]; though it was not without any foundation (as the lies of {Morgoth}[Melkor] seldom were). But the great gifts of the oldor did not come from the teaching of Melkor. Fanor the greatest of them all never had any dealings with Melkor in Aman, and was his greatest foe.>
27 The greatest host came last, ... The Sea-elves therefore they became in Valinor, the {Soloneldi [> }Falmari{]}, for they made music beside the breaking waves. Two lords they had, for their numbers were very great: Elw Singollo, which signifies Greymantle, and Olw his brother. The hair of Olw was long and white, and his eyes were blue; but the hair of Elw was grey as silver, and his eyes were as stars; he was the tallest of all the Elven-folk. CE-EX-65 <Q&E The Lindar (Teleri){
These} were, as has been seen, much the largest of the ancient clans. The name, ... and those that moved into the West became enamoured of the Sea. [footnote: For this reason the most frequently used of the 'titles' or secondary names of the Lindar was Nendili 'Water-lovers'.]
In Quenya, ... cf. telma, which was often applied to the last item in a structure, such as a coping-stone, or a topmost pinnacle.]>
29 These are the chief peoples of the Eldali, ... These the Kalaquendi CE-EX-66 called {the Alamanyar [> Umanyar], since they came never to the Land of Aman and the Blessed Realm. But the Alamanyar [> Umanyar] and the Avari alike they name} the Moriquendi, Elves of the Darkness, for they never beheld the light before the Sun and Moon. CE-EX-67<Q&E In the period of Exile the Noldor modified their use of these terms, which was offensive to the Sindar. ... was represented by the new terms Amanyar 'those of Aman', and Uamanyar or Umanyar 'those not of Aman', beside the longer forms Amaneldi and Umaneldi.>
CE-EX-68{The Alamanyar [> Umanyar] were for the most part of the race of the Teleri. For the hindmost of that people, repenting of the journey, forsook the host of Olw, and Dn was their leader; and they turned southward and wandered long and far; and they became a folk apart, unlike their kin, save that they loved water, and dwelt most beside falls and running streams. They had greater lore of living things, tree and herb, bird and beast, than all other Elves. The Nandor they are called. It was Denethor son of Dn who turning again west at last led a part of that people over the mountains into Beleriand ere the rising of the Moon.}
CE-EX-69<AAm And they began their long journey ...
{ 1115.}
59 Long and slow was the March ...
60 And it came to pass that CE-SL-21{after ten Years of journeying in this manner (which is to say in such a time as we now should reckon well nigh a century of our years)} the Eldar passed through a forest, and came to a great river, wider and broader than any that they yet had seen, and beyond it were mountains whose sharp horns seemed to pierce the realm of the stars.
61 This river, it is said, ...
62 Then one arose in the host of Olw, which was ever hindmost on the march, CE-EX-70{and his name was Nano (or Dn in the tongue of his own people). And}and he forsook the westward march, and led away a numerous folk, and they went south down the River, and passed out of the knowledge of the Eldar until long years were over. These were the {Nandor.}> CE-EX-71 <Q&E Nandor. {
}This name must have been made at the time, in the latter days of the March, when certain groups of the Teleri gave up the March; and it was especially applied to the large following of Lenwe, [footnote: Lenwe is the form in which his name was remembered in oldorin histories. His name was probably *Denwego, Nandorin Denweg. His son was the Nandorin chieftain Denethor. These names probably meant 'lithe-and-active' and 'lithe-and-lank', from *dene- 'thin and strong, pliant, lithe', and *thara- 'tall (or long) and slender'.] who refused to cross the Hithaeglir.
The name was often interpreted as 'Those who go back'; but in fact none of the Nandor appear to have returned, ... Some of these finally entered Beleriand, CE-EX-72{not} long before the return of {Morgoth}[Melkor]. These were under the leadership of Denethor, son of Denweg [footnote: see Note {17}/on page xyz/], who became an ally of Elw in the first battles with the creatures of {Morgoth}[Melkor]. The old name Nandor was however only remembered by the oldorin historians in Aman; ...
This name they at first applied to the Nandor ...
These names were however ... and took as little part in the strife with {Morgoth}[Melkor] as they could. This name, S Laegel, pl. Laegil, class-plural Laegrim or Laegel(d)rim, was given both because of the greenness of the land of Lindon, and because the Laegrim clothed themselves in green as an aid to secrecy. This term the oldor translated into Quenya Laiquendi; but it was not much used.>
CE-EX-73<AAm { 1125.}
63 And when again CE-SL-22{ten}[long] years had passed, the Vanyar and Noldor came at length over the mountains that stood between Eriador and the westernmost land of Middle-earth, that the Elves after named Beleriand. CE-EX-74 <LT Now {Ulmo stands there and there comes a glint in }the woods{ that} marched even down to the sea-foam in those quiet days, and {behold! he hears the footsteps of }the {Teleri}[Vanyar] {crackle}crackeld in the forest, and {Inwe}[Ingw] {is}was at their head beside the stirrup of Orom. Grievous had been their march, and dark and difficult the way through {Hisilome} the land of shade, despite the skill and power of Orom. Indeed long after the joy of Valinor had washed its memory faint the Elves sang still sadly of it, and told tales of many of their folk whom they said and say were lost in those old forests and ever wandered there in sorrow.> And the foremost companies passed over the Vale of Sirion and came to the shores of the Great Sea. Then great fear came upon them, and many repented sorely of their journey and withdrew into the woods of Beleriand. And Orom returned to Valinor to seek the counsel of Manw.
{ 1128.}
64 Now the host of the Teleri ...
{ 1130.}
65 At this time Elw strayed in the woods of Beleriand and was lost, and his people sought him long in vain> {30 Others there were also of the Teleri that remained in Middle-earth. These were the Elves of Beleriand in the west of the Northern lands. They came from the host of Elw the Grey. He was lost in the woods and many of his folk sought him long in vain}; and thus when their kindred departed over Sea they were left behind and went not into the West. Therefore they are called the Sindar, the Grey Elves, but themselves they named Eglath, the Forsaken. CE-EX-75 <Q&E Less commonly the form Sindel, pl. Sindeldi, is also met in Exilic Quenya.> Elw after became their king, mightiest of all the {Alamanyar [correction to }Umanyar{ missed]}. He it was who was called Thingol in the language of Doriath. CE-EX-76 <Q&E Sindar{
Less commonly the form Sindel, pl. Sindeldi, is also met in Exilic Quenya. This} was the name given by the Exiled oldor [footnot: see Note {11}/on page XYZ/] to the second largest of the divisions of the Eldar. [footnote: See above{, p. 381}. The proportion, per 144, of the Eldar remaining in Middle-earth was reckoned at 26, of which about 8 were Nandor.] It was applied to all the Elves of Telerin origin that the oldor found in Beleriand, though it later excluded the Nandor, except those who were the direct subjects of Elw, or had become merged with his people. The name meant 'the Grey', or 'the Grey-elves', and was derived from *THIN, PQ *thindi 'grey, pale or silvery grey', Q inde, dialect sinde. [footnote: On the origin of this name see Note {11}/on page xyz/]
The Loremasters also supposed ... For which reason the Sindar often called them Lachend, pl. Lechind 'flame-eyed'.>[Footnote: Other names in song and tale are given to these peoples. The Vanyar are the Blessed Elves, and the Spear-elves, the Elves of the Air, the friends of the {Gods}[Valar], the Holy Elves and the Immortal, and the Children of Ingw; they are the Fair Folk and the White.
The Noldor are the Wise, and the Golden, the Valiant, the Sword-elves, the Elves of the Earth, the Foes of Melkor, the Skilled of Hand, the Jewel-wrights, the Companions of Men, the Followers of Finw.
The Teleri are the Foam-riders, the Singers of the Shore, the Free, and the Swift, and the Arrow-elves; they are the Elves of the Sea, the Ship-wrights, the Swanherds, the Gatherers of Pearl, the Blue Elves, the people of Olw. The Nandor are CE-EX-77{the Host of Dn, }the Wood-elves, the Wanderers, the Axe-elves, the Green Elves and the Brown, the Hidden People; and those that came at last to Ossiriand are the Elves of the Seven Rivers, the Singers Unseen, the Kingless, the Weaponless, and the Lost Folk, for they are now no more. The Sindar are the Lemberi, the Lingerers; they are the Friends of Oss, the Elves of the Twilight, the Silvern, the Enchanters, the Wards of Melian, the Kindred of Luthien, the people of Elw. Quoth Pengolod.]>
My comments have to wait for an other day, I have spend already to much time on prepairing the text.

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Old 09-17-2015, 01:11 AM   #2
Arvegil145
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It looks great (so far), but I haven't looked at it closely enough. I've been busy these days, and could not afford to take a more thorough look at it.

And jumping ahead a little - is Elulindo still valid as a son of Olw? And where would you (if you would indeed) place Gostir, the dragon known only by name - but I think that it needs a mention somewhere.


In any case - I will be analyzing your post with great attention. And I have only praise for your relentless work.
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Old 09-17-2015, 03:29 PM   #3
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Elulindo seems to be still valid, but I see no role he would play in any narative. Therefore I think if included at all it will only be in genelogical tables if we provide these.

I don't remember Gostir at all in the moment. Please provide us with a source information about him.

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Old 09-17-2015, 06:04 PM   #4
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Elulindo seems to be still valid, but I see no role he would play in any narative. Therefore I think if included at all it will only be in genelogical tables if we provide these.
In Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldali when it is mentioned that Finarfin was a friend with the sons of Olw, I included Elulindo too.

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I don't remember Gostir at all in the moment. Please provide us with a source information about him.
From The Lost Road and Other Writings: Etymologies -

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GOS-, GOTH- dread. Q osse terror, as name Osse. Cf. Mandos (see mbad). N has Oeros for Osse (*Goss). Cf. Taur-os [twar], N gost dread, terror; gosta- fear exceedingly; cf. Gothrog = Dread Demon [ruk]; Gothmog [mbaw], Gostir ^dread glance, dragon-name [th].
Also:

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THE- look (see or seem). N thir (*thr) look, face, expression, countenance; cf. Cranthir Ruddy-face [karn], Gostir older Gorsthir dread-glance, dragon-name [gos]. N thio to seem, thia it appears.
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Old 09-18-2015, 09:34 AM   #5
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Looking deeper into the case of Elulindo, I have some doubts. When the charachter recieved the Name, he was the son of Elw or Elu in the speak of his own people. Then Olw, the brother Elu took ofer the role of the 'Lord of the Ships'. We knew that Olw had many sons. but we can by no means be sure that on of them was still suposed to be named Elulindo.

About Gostir: I can see why you would like to have him mentioned, but I see not were we could include him without cerating a fact that is not based on any hint from JRR Tolkien. If you can think on a way to introduce him under that premission, I will gladly discuss it with you.

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Old 09-20-2015, 03:43 PM   #6
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I promissed to give some comments on my changes and here is the first part of this:
First an unusual general change {Morgoth}[Melkor]: I suppose we start calling him Morgoth after Feanor named him thus.

CE-EX-01: The sleep of Yavanna entered the history only in AAm therefore we need this addition.
CE-SL-01: In the later scripts the Balrog were not made by Melkor.
CE-EX-02: Again a long insert from AAm, but what is said there is otherwise not found.
CE-EX-03: The reason from council should be given.
CE-EX-04: Here I have inserted the Legend of the Awaking of the Quendi. As this is a relatively late text I see good reason to insert it.
CE-SL-02, -03, -04 and -05: Our version is a flat earth story, there fore we have to change all passages that refers to the day cycle.
CE-SL-06, -07: This editorial additions serves the same reason: It brings this to reference to the sun and the daytime in line with a flat earth version.
CE-EX-05: A long addition from AAm where the more detailed description is given.
CE-EX-06: Following the idea of gondowe, I added part of the Orc-texts from MT here, and therefore this sentence has to go.
CE-EX-07: I start with the how Melkor did it.
CE-EX-08: The transition to the etymological stuff might be a bit hard. I would appreciate if some one comes up with some thing smother.
CE-EX-09: We also might consider too take more then only the introduction.
CE-EX-10: This half sentence is moved to a later position.
CE-EX-11: If we want transport the full picture, this info from the Munby letter has to included.
CE-EX-12: I just wanted to indicate the origin of the text we go on with.
CE-EX-13, -14: Since what follows in my draft is exactly this consideration of the ultimate origin I changed this sentence accordingly.
CE-EX-15: This sentence was moved.
CE-SL-08: Again we stick to our flat earth version and to the time structure in which Men arrive with the first rising of the sun.
CE-EX-16: This is a change made by JRR Tolkien himself.
CE-EX-17: I included this additional info about the Maia-Orks because I found it important. But I removed the comparison to Sauron. We have to discuss if we want to keep the poltergeist.
CE-EX-18: This reference to the third age must go.
CE-EX-19: In the end this is more a paragraph taken out.
CE-EX-20: This back reference is to the paragraph taken out.
CE-SL-09: Again Men are not available until much later.
CE-EX-21: This wild mixture is to e included, I think.
CE-EX-22: Again a reference to Morgoth to be taken out.
CE-EX-23: A last summary of the Ork creation.

I will follow with further comments as fast as I can handle.

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Old 09-21-2015, 12:33 AM   #7
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One more character came to my mind while I was rereading the Lost Tales: Ainairos - although he doesn't come until later - should he be kept? I don't see a reason why he shouldn't.
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Old 09-21-2015, 10:22 AM   #8
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Uffff. With patience. I need time to revise. Of course with a first look, there are many things very different with my edition. For the moment only say that, in my opinion, the MT texts in many cases are very "essayist" to include in a "narrative" stuff. (CE-EX-39 f.e.).
Well, when I can do it.

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Old 09-21-2015, 10:36 AM   #9
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A second go on Comments:
CE-EX-24: This headline for the sub-chapter has no source in Tolkien. If someone has more authoritative idea I would gladly take it.
CE-EX-25: At this point the source info was wrong. Actually we change back to our basis text LQ.
CE-SL-10: lfwine is out of our version and this does together with our inserts provoke the grammatical change from {they}the Elves.
CE-SL-11: Orom’s help in making language is mention some were else already and the rest is deleted due to Tolkiens own change.
CE-EX-26: The pure joy of the Valar at the coming of the Elves is only hinted at in the later legendarium. I see nothing that speaks against the more direct version of LT.
CE-EX-27: In the later legendarium Orom seems no longer in need of his mother to tell him about the children of Eru.
CE-EX-28: Angainor is still valid as the inserts from MT show. So I think we should also take up it making. At least we should take the next paragraph with the counsel taken.
CE-EX-29: The change from the direct story telling of LT to the remote comments of the essays from MT adds a nice contrast.
CE-SL-12: In the later legendarium the Valar have to deal with Utumno and Angband.
CE-EX-30: The armour taking of the Valar might be to pictorial, but I find it still fitting.
CE-EX-31, -32: Okay, Makar and Messa have no place in our version.
CE-EX-33: In the later legendarium some tasks that were Nonores were taken up by Enw and of course all the parts of Fionwe. Thus we might choose if Enw should be behind Manw on the chariot or go before.
CE-EX-34: Nahar, Orome’s horse is white not brown.
CE-EX-35: If one of the Valar of the later legendarium would be probable to have a son then it is Tulkas, but still I think it is much safer to leave Telimektar out of our version.
CE-SL-36: Ops! A pure numbering error it should be CE-SL-13. To the point itself, as we learn from MT even in this battle Melkor was not willing to fight it out personally.
CE-EX-36: Here follow a long insert from AAm which provides the best description of the war.
CE-EX-37: This is an insert in the insert. And it takes the breaking of the gates from LT. No later account is found how the Valar broke that gate, so why not by the magic of Orom’s horn?
CE-EX-38: These changes are based on Tolkiens plan to reduce the number of the Balrogs and by that make them more formidable. As we have based our work in FoG on the assumption 3 or maximum 7 we are obliged to take this changes as well.
CE-EX-39: Here it is high time for this addition, as it explains nicely what the Valar had archived in the war up to this point.
CE-EX-40, -14: As explained in my last post, Morgoth has to go. But the theory here bound to that name is valid and for sure worth recording.
CE-EX-42: This is the only descriptive look into the pits of Utumno we will ever get. It would be a shame to lose it.
CE-EX-43: This is dangerous territory. Has Melkor given to the Orcs and Balrogs the power of recuperation and multiplication? Not if the Orcs were at least in part Elves, Men, Maiar or even pre-existing beasts and for the Balrogs not if they are Maiar. Therefore I think it much more safe to eliminate the examples.
CE-EX-44: Again a description from LT that never changed: The gates of Utumno were blocked but the caverns were still full of evil creatures that a times would find a way out.
CE-EX-45: We later seldom get a chance to ears drop on the Valar in council.
CE-EX-46: Again Makar the War-God of Tolkien that later was removed.
CE-SL-14: Melkor is no longer bound. He has to hold his peace by himself or his plans, recorded in the MT-passages would come to light.
CE-SL-15: Again: Melkor is unchained.
CE-EX-47: Here at long last we come back to our basis text. And we have to discuss if Melkor was bound with Angainor while he was prisoner in Mandos or not. My feeling is that this was not the case. The reclusion was probably not even meant as a punishment but a help in repentance and selfabasement in order to reassemble his ‘disperesed’ inherent power.
CE-SL-16 and -18: This rearrangement is due to my additions. Probably we can delete what follows as redundant, but found it more profitable to keep at least the three ages of peace.
CE-SL-17: Again we are talking of Utumno and Angband and not one of them alone.
CE-EX-48: Here we have the next chance to listen directly to the Valar in council.
CE-EX-49: Nearly a regular change from the later abounded children of the Valar to their folk.
CE-EX-50: Ulmo is the one Valar that we knew to oppose the bringing of the Elves to Valinor. Therefore I shifted this argument of Makar to him even so that might be discussed.
CE-EX-51: Again, we know that Ulmo was in opposition to this.
CE-EX-52: Being back in our basic text we add here the info who brought the message to Cuivienen.
CE-EX-53: The second council again reported most excellently in LT. Here might be mentioned that the motive for Ulmo’s smile is changed significantly. When it was written he hope for the Elves to come soon, now he has found some hope that they might refuse the summon.
CE-SL-20: The old timeline had Melkor in prison for a long time when the Elves arrived. This was clearly changed.
CE-EX-54 to -58: AAm and LT have here the fuller accounts and are therefore the texts I have chosen.

With CE-EX-59 begin the additions from Q&E, but since it is getting late already and I think I missed at least one of these, I will stop here and come back to it later this week.

About Ainairos: Up to now I have not included him or his role as leader of the Teleri party speaking against the Noldor after the kin-slying into my draft. But now he will be one of the points checked before I post these part of my draft.

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Old 09-22-2015, 08:27 AM   #10
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Before I go on with my comments on the changes I would like to introduce some more material:
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CE-EX-05 <AAm 38 In the changes of the world the shapes of lands and of seas have been broken and remade; rivers have not kept their courses, neither have mountains remained steadfast; and to {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen] there is no returning. ...
39 Long the Quendi ...
40 At this time also, it is said, ...
{ 1085}
41 And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years) it chanced that ... he heard afar off many voices singing. CE-EX-05.5{
}42 Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited.{ And when Orom looked upon them he was filled with wonder, as though they were things unforeseen and unimagined; and he loved the Quendi, and named them Eldar, the people of the stars. }
43 Yet many of the Quendi were adread at his coming. ...
44 Thus it was that when Nahar neighed and Orom indeed came among them, ...
45 But of those hapless who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living hath descended into the pits of Utumno, or hath explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressa: that all those of the Quendi that came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty and wickedness were corrupted and enslaved. CE-EX-06{Thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orkor in envy and mockery of the Eldar, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.} CE-EX-07 <Myths Transformed, Text VIII: Orcs It does however seem best to view Melkor's corrupting power as always starting, at least, in the moral or theological level. Any creature that took him for Lord (and especially those who blasphemously called him Father or Creator) became soon corrupted in all parts of its being, the fea dragging down the hroa in its descent into {Morgoth}[Melkor]ism: hate and destruction. As for Elves being 'immortal': they in fact only had enormously long lives, and were themselves physically 'wearing out', and suffering a slow progressive weakening of their bodies.>
CE-EX-08 < Myths Transformed, Text IX The Elves from their earliest times invented and used a word or words with a base (o)rok to denote anything that caused fear and/or horror. It would originally have been applied to 'phantoms' (spirits assuming visible forms) as well as to any independently existing creatures. Its application (in all Elvish tongues) specifically to the creatures called Orks{ - so I shall spell it in The Silmarillion -} was later.> CE-EX-09 <Q&E, Appendix C, MT Text X The Orcs of the later wars, after the escape of Melkor{-Morgoth} and his return to Middle-earth, were neither spirits nor phantoms, but living creatures, capable of speech and of some crafts and organization, or at least capable of learning such things from higher creatures or from their Master. They bred and multiplied rapidly whenever left undisturbed.> For the Orkor had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of IlvatarCE-EX-10{; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance thereof, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the Beginning: so say the wise}. CE-EX-11 <Letter to Mrs, Munby There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known>. CE-EX-12 <Q&E, Appendix C, MT Text X It is unlikely, as a consideration of the ultimate origin of this race CE-EX-13{would }makes clearer, that the Quendi had met any Orcs of this kind, before their finding by Orome and the separation of Eldar and Avari.
But it is known that Melkor had become aware of the Quendi before the Valar began their war against him, and the joy of the Elves in Middle-earth had already been darkened by shadows of fear. Dreadful shapes had begun to haunt the borders of their dwellings, and some of their people vanished into the darkness and were heard of no more. Some of these things may have been phantoms and delusions; but some were, no doubt, shapes taken by the servants of Melkor, mocking and degrading the very forms of the Children. For Melkor had in his service great numbers of the Maiar, who had the power, as had their Master, of taking visible and tangible shape in Arda.>
CE-EX-13.2 <Q&E, Appendix C: Elvish names for the OrcsFor these shapes and the terror that they inspired the element chiefly used in the ancient tongue of the Elves appears to have been *RUKU. ...In all the Eldarin tongues (and, it is said, in the Avarin also) there are many derivatives of this stem, having such ancient forms as: ruk-, rauk-, uruk-, urk(u) , runk-, rukut/s, besides the strengthened stem gruk-, and the elaborated guruk-, nguruk. [footnote: *(n)guruk is due to a combination of *(g)ruk with *NGUR 'horror', seen in S gorth, gorthob 'horror, horrible', and (reduplicated) gorgor 'extreme horror'.] Already in PQ that word must have been formed which had in CE the form *rauku or *rauko. This was applied to the larger and more terrible of the enemy shapes. But ancient were also the forms uruk, urku/o, and the adjectival urka 'horrible'. [footnote: Some other derivatives are in Quenya: rukin 'I feel fear or horror' (constructed with 'from' of the object feared); ruhta- 'terrify'; rukima 'terrible'; rauko and [i]arauko[i] < *grauk-) 'a powerful, hostile, and terrible creature', especially in the compound Valarauko 'Demon of Might', applied later to the more powerful and terrible of the Maia servants of {Morgoth}[Melkor]. In Sindarin appear, for instance, raug and graug, and the compound Balrog (equivalents of Q rauko, etc.); groga- 'feel terror'; gruitha 'terrify'; gorog (<*guruk) 'horror'.]
In Quenya we meet the noun urko, pl. urqui, deriving as the plural form shows from *urku or *uruku. In Sindarin is found the corresponding urug; but there is in frequent use the form orch, which must be derived from *urko or the adjectival *urka.
In the lore of the Blessed Realm the Q urko naturally seldom occurs, except in tales of the ancient days and the March, and then is vague in meaning, referring to anything that caused fear to the Elves, any dubious shape or shadow, or prowling creature. In Sindarin urug has a similar use. It might indeed be translated 'bogey'. But the form orch seems at once to have been applied to the Orcs, as soon as they appeared; and Orch, pl. Yrch, class-plural Orchoth remained the regular name for these creatures in Sindarin afterwards. The kinship, though not precise equivalence, of S orch to Q urko, urqui was recognized, and in Exilic Quenya urko was commonly used to translate S orch, though a form showing the influence of Sindarin, orko, pl. orkor and orqui, is also often found.
These names, derived by various routes from the Elvish tongues, from Quenya, Sindarin, Nandorin, and no doubt Avarin dialects, went far and wide, and seem to have been the source of the names for the Orcs in most of the languages of the Elder Days and the early ages of which there is any record. The form in Adunaic urku, urkhu may be direct from Quenya or Sindarin; and this form underlies the words for Orc in the languages of Men of the North-West in the Second and Third Ages. The Orcs themselves adopted it, for the fact that it referred to terror and detestation delighted them. The word uruk that occurs in the Black Speech, devised (it is said) by Sauron to serve as a lingua franca for his subjects, was probably borrowed by him from the Elvish tongues of earlier times. It referred, however, specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of the regiments of Mordor. Lesser breeds seem to have been called snaga.
CE-EX-13.3 <moved from below The word for Orc in the now forgotten tongue of the Druedain in the realm of Gondor is recorded as being (? in the plural) gorgun. This is possibly derived ultimately from the Elvish words.>
CE-EX-13.4 {The Dwarves claimed to have met and fought the Orcs long before the Eldar in Beleriand were aware of them. It was indeed their obvious detestation of the Orcs, and their willingness to assist in any war against them, that convinced the Eldar that the Dwarves were no creatures of Morgoth. Nonetheless the Dwarvish name for Orcs, Rukhs, pl. Rakhas, seems to show affinity to the Elvish names, and was possibly ultimately derived from Avarin.}
The Eldar had many other names for the Orcs, but most of these were 'kennings', descriptive terms of occasional use. One was, however, in frequent use in Sindarin: more often than Orchoth the general name for Orcs as a race that appears in the Annals was Glamhoth. Glam meant 'din, uproar, the confused yelling and bellowing of beasts', so that Glamboth in origin meant more or less 'the Yelling-horde', with reference to the horrible clamour of the Orcs in battle or when in pursuit - they could be stealthy enough at need. But Glamhoth became so firmly associated with Orcs that Glam alone could be used of any body of Orcs, and a singular form was made from it, glamog. (Compare the name of the sword Glamdring.)
CE-EX-13.5 {Note.}[footnote: The word used in translation of Q urko, S orch, is Orc. But that is because of the similarity of the ancient English word orc, 'evil spirit or bogey', to the Elvish words. There is possibly no connexion between them. The English word is now generally supposed to be derived from Latin Orcus.{
The word for Orc in the now forgotten tongue of the Druedain in the realm of Gondor is recorded as being (? in the plural) gorgun. This is possibly derived ultimately from the Elvish words.}]>
CE-EX-14 <Myths Transformed, Text X: Orcs The origin of the Orcs is a matter of debate. ...
And:
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CE-EX-57 <AAm 57 Then befell the first sundering of the Elvenfolk. For the kindred of Ingw, and the most part of the kindreds of Finw and Olw, were swayed by the words of their lords, and were willing to depart and follow Orom.> This they did of their free will, and yet were swayed by the majesty of the {Gods}[Valar], ere their own wisdom was full grown. The Elves that obeyed the summons and followed the three kings are called the Eldar, by the name that Orom gave them; for he was their guide and led them at the last unto Valinor. CE-EX-58{Yet there were many who preferred the starlight and the wide spaces of the Earth to the rumour of the glory of the Trees, and they remained behind. These are called the Avari, the Unwilling.} <AAm But the kindreds of Morw and Nurw were unwilling and refused the summons, preferring the starlight and the wide spaces of the Earth to the rumour of the Trees. Now these dwelt furthest from the waters of {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen], and wandered in the hills, and they had not seen Orom at his first coming, and of the Valar they knew no more than shapes and rumours of wrath and power as they marched to war. And mayhap the lies of Melkor concerning Orom and Nahar (that above were recalled) lived still among them, so that they feared him as a demon that would devour them. These are the Avari, the Unwilling, and they were sundered in that time from the Eldar, and met never again until many ages were past.> CE-EX-58.3 <Q&E This name, evidently made by the Eldar at the time of the Separation, is found in histories in the Quenya form Avari, and the Telerin form Abari. It was still used by the historians of the Exiled Noldor, though it hardly differed from Moriquendi, which (see CE-EX-58.4{above}<below>) was no longer used by the Exiles to include Elves of Eldarin origin. The plural Evair was known to Sindarin loremasters, but was no longer in use. Such Avari as came into Beleriand wereCE-EX-58.5{, as has been said,} called Morben, or Mornedhel.>
CE-EX-59 <Q&E There also existed two old compounds containing *kwendi:
*kala-kwendi and *mori-kwendi, the Light-folk and the Dark- folk. These terms appear to go back to the period before the Separation, or rather to the time of the debate among the Quendi concerning the invitation of the Valar. They were evidently made by the party favourable to Orom, and referred originally to those who desired the Light of Valinor (where the ambassadors of the Elves reported that there was no darkness), and those who did not wish for a place in which there was no night. But already before the final separation *mori-kwendi may have referred to the glooms and the clouds dimming CE-EX-60 {the sun and }the stars during the War of the Valar and Melkor, so that the term from the beginning had a tinge of scorn, implying that such folk were not averse to the shadows of Melkor upon Middle-earth.
The lineal descendants of these terms survived only in the languages of Aman. The Quenya forms were Kalaquendi and Moriquendi. The Kalaquendi in Quenya applied only to the Elves who actually lived or had lived in Aman; and the Moriquendi was applied to all others, whether they had come on the March or not. The latter were regarded as greatly inferior to the Kalaquendi, who had experienced the Light of Valinor, and had also acquired far greater knowledge and powers by their association with the Valar and Maiar.>
CE-EX-60.3 <Q&E Associated with these compounds were the two old words Calben (Celbin) and Morben (Moerbin). CE-EX-60.4{On the formal relation of these to Quenya Kalaquendi and Moriquendi see p. 362.} They had no reference to Elves, except by accident of circumstance. Celbin retained what was, as has been said, probably its original meaning: all Elves other than the Avari; and it included the Sindar. It was in fact the equivalent (when one was needed) of the Quenya Eldar, Telerin Elloi. But it referred to Elves only because no other people qualified for the title. Moerbin was similarly an equivalent for Avari; but that it did not mean only 'Dark-elves' is seen by its ready application to other Incarnates, when they later became known. By the Sindar anyone dwelling outside Beleriand, or entering their realm from outside, was called a Morben. The first people of this kind to be met werethe Nandor, who entered East Beleriand over the passes of the Mountains before the return of Morgoth; soon after his return came the first invasions of his Orcs from the North. Somewhat later the Sindar became aware of Avari, who had crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand from the South. Later came the Men of the Three Houses, who were friendly; and later still Men of other kinds. All these were at first acquaintance called Moerbin.[footnote: The Dwarves were in a special position. They claimed to have known Beleriand before even the Eldar first came there; and there do appear to have been small groups dwelling furtively in the highlands west of Sirion from a very early date: they attacked and waylaid the Elves by stealth, and the Elves did not at first recognize them as Incarnates, but thought them to be some kind of cunning animal, and hunted them. By their own account they were fugitives, driven into the wilderness by their own kin further east, and later they were called the Noegyth Nibin or Petty-dwarves, for they had become smaller than the norm of their kind, and filled with hate for all other creatures. When the Elves met the powerful Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, in the eastern side of the Mountains, they recognized them as Incarnates, for they had skill in many crafts, and learned the Elvish speech readily for purposes of traffic. At first the Elves were in doubt concerning them, believing them to be related to Orcs and creatures of Morgoth; but when they found that, though proud and unfriendly, they could be trusted to keep any treaties that they made, and did not molest those who left them in peace, they traded with them and let them come and go as they would. They no longer classed them as Moerbin, but neither did they ever reckon them as Celbin, calling them the Dornhoth ('the thrawn folk') or the Naugrim ('the stunted people').] But when the Nandor were recognized as kinsfolk of Lindarin origin and speech (as was still recognizable), they were received into the class of Celbin. The Men of the Three Houses were also soon removed from the class of Moerbin.[footnote: Though Morben might still be applied to them by any who remained hostile to Men (as were the people of Doriath for the most part); but this was intended to be insulting.] They were given their own name, Edain, and were seldom actually called Celbin, but they were recognized as belonging to this class, which became . practically equivalent to 'peoples in alliance in the War against Morgoth'. The Avari thus remained the chief examples of Moerbin. Any individual Avar who joined with or was admitted among the Sindar (it rarely happened) became a Calben; but the Avari in general remained secretive, hostile to the Eldar, and untrustworthy; and they dwelt in hidden places in the deeper woods, or in caves.[footnote: The implication that as opposed to Celbin the Moerbin were allies of {Morgoth}[Melkor], or at least of dubious loyalty, was, however, untrue with regard to the Avari. No Elf of any kind ever sided with {Morgoth}[Melkor] of free will, though under torture or the stress of great fear, or deluded by lies, they might obey his commands: but this applied also to Celbin. The 'Dark-elves', however, often were hostile, and even treacherous, in their dealings with the Sindar and Noldor; and if they fought, as they did when themselves assailed by the Orcs, they never took any open part in the War on the side of the Celbin. They were, it seems, filled with an inherited bitterness against the Eldar, whom they regarded as deserters of their kin, and in Beleriand this feeling was increased by envy (especially of the Amanyar), and by resentment of their lordliness. The belief of the Celbin that, at the least, they were weaker in resistance to the pressures or lies of {Morgoth}[Melkor], if this grievance was concerned, may have been justified CE-EX-60.5{; but the only case recorded in the histories is that of Maeglin, the son of El. El was a Mornedhel, and is said to have belonged to the Second Clan (whose representatives among the Eldar were the Noldor). He dwelt in East Beleriand not far from the borders of Doriath. He had great smith-craft, especially in the making of swords, in which work he surpassed even the Noldor of Aman; and many therefore believed that he used the morgul, the black arts taught by Morgoth. The Noldor themselves had indeed learned much from Morgoth in the days of his captivity in Valinor; but it is more likely that El was acquainted with the Dwarves, for in many places the Avari became closer in friendship with that people than the Amanyar or the Sindar. El found Irith, the sister of King Turgon, astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar. His son Maeglin was later admitted to Gondolin, and given honour as the king's sisterson; but in the end he betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth. Maeglin was indeed an Elf of evil temper and dark mind, and he had a lust and grudge of his own to satisfy; but even so he did what he did only after torment and under a cloud of fear. Some of the Nandor, who were allowed to be Celbin, were not any better. Saeros, a counsellor of King Thingol, who belonged to a small clan of Nandor living in eastern Doriath, was chiefly responsible for the driving into outlawry of Turin son of Hurin. Turin's mother was named Morwen 'dark maiden', because of her dark hair, and it was one of Saeros' worst insults to call her Morben. For that Turin smote him in the king's hall}.
This resentment on the part of the Avari is illustrated by the history of PQ *kwendi. This word, as has been shown, did not survive in the Telerin languages of Middle-earth, and was almost forgotten even in the Telerin of Aman. But the Loremasters of later days, when more friendly relations had been established with Avari of various kinds in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin, record that it was frequently to be found in Avarin dialects. These were numerous, and often as widely sundered from one another as they were from the Eldarin forms of Elvish speech,. but wherever the descendants of *kwendi were found, they meant not 'Elves in general', but were the names that the Avari gave to themselves. They had evidently continued to call themselves *kwendi, the People, regarding those who went away as deserters - though according to Eldarin tradition the numbers of the Eldar at the time of the Separation were in the approximate proportion of 3:2, as compared with the Avari (see CE-EX-60.6{p. 381}<below>). The Avarin forms cited by the Loremasters were: kindi, cuind, hwenti, windan, kinn-lai, penni. The last is interesting as showing the change kw > p. This might be independent of the Common Telerin change; but it suggests that it had already occurred among the Lindar before the Separation. The form penni is cited as coming from the 'Wood-elven' speech of the Vale of Anduin, and these Elves were among the most friendly to the fugitives from Beleriand, and held themselves akin to the remnants of the Sindar.] Moerbin as applied to them is usually translated 'Dark-elves', partly because Moriquendi in the Quenya of the Exiled Noldor usually referred to them. But that no special reference to Elves was intended by the Sindarin word is shown by the fact that Moerbin was at once applied to the new bands of Men (Easterlings) that appeared before the Battle of the Nirnaeth.[Reference to the last footnote] If in Sindarin an Avar, as distinct from other kinds of Morben, was intended, he was called Mornedhel.>
24 The Eldar prepared now a great march from their first homes in the East. When all was made ready, Orom rode at their head upon Nahar, his white horse shod with gold; and behind him the Eldali were arrayed in three hosts.
Of course we can as well discuss to skip all the linguistcal material and place it all together in volume 3: THE LORE OF THE WISE.

Here only the comments on the first part I added:
CE-EX-09 and -12: I changed the source inforamtion to make clearer where to find this text.
CE-EX-13.2: This is Appendix C of Q&E. It is very linguistic stuff, but with some info include that seems to me worth consideration.
CE-EX-13.3: I moved this paragraph up to hold the info about manish tongues together.
CE-EX-13.4: This should be used later. Probably in the chapter 13 Of the Sindar.
CE-EX-13.5: I moved this Note from the Essay into a footnote in our text.

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Old 09-22-2015, 09:28 AM   #11
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On we go with my comments:
CE-EX-58.3: Here I added the linguistic Information about the Name Avari.
CE-EX-58.4: Since we moved the texts we have to Change the reference.
CE-EX-58.5: Again here, but 'it will been said' seems not okay for me.
CE-EX-59: As this contains a lot of Information about the debate among the Quendi I find it improtant to include it.
CE-EX-60: This should probably have been a -SL- number, but the fact is the sun is not around in our version of this time.
CE-EX-60.3: The Calben/Morben info fits (if at all) in this place.
CE-EX-60.4: The reference is to paragraph we did not take up fully, so it has to go.
CE-EX-60.5: Both Information (about El and Saeros insult) must be considered for inserting in the proper place in the narative.
CE-EX-61: The Long Addition from Q&E does bring in the Information about relative numbers of the sundering of the Elves.
CE-EX-62, -64 and -65: Here are inserted the lingustical information about the respective clan names.
CE-EX-63: A Change in the Basic text made by JRR Tolkien.
CE-EX-66, -67 and -68: The use and Definition of 'Umanyar' is much broder given in Q&E.
CE-EX-69: The journey of the Eldar is best described in AAm.
CE-SL-21: Do we hold that chronology? I found it safer to remove the years.
CE-EX-70: Namo is no longer valid as shown in Q&E below.
CE-EX-71: Linguistics about the Nandor, denying the validity of Namo.
CE-EX-72: Do we Change the chronology? If yes, These might stand. Safest way would probably be to remove both 'not' and 'long'.
CE-EX-73: Again we take up AAm because it gives the fuller account.
CE-SL-22: Again a question if we want to fix the chronolgy or not.
CE-EX-74: I couldn't resist this nice and melacholic part from LT maken clear how horiable that journey must have been.
CE-EX-75 and -76: Linguistics about the Sindar.
CE-EX-77: Since Dn no longer seems to be the right name, his people should be named after him.

A view Point in addition:
- I have marked that I missed some of Tolkiens notes especialy in thses last paragraphs. I will later work on that point.
- I am currently think about an addition here from Q&E about the Falathrim and probably including the Essay Crdan.

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Old 09-22-2015, 09:51 AM   #12
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Okay, I did the work with the Notes directly, so why not share it:
Quote:
... Some of these finally entered Beleriand, CE-EX-72{not} long before the return of {Morgoth}[Melkor]. These were under the leadership of Denethor, son of Denweg [footnote: Lenwe is the form in which his name was remembered in Noldorin histories. His name was probably *Denwego, Nandorin Denweg. His son was the Nandorin chieftain Denethor. These names probably meant 'lithe-and-active' and 'lithe-and-lank', from *dene- 'thin and strong, pliant, lithe', and *thara- 'tall (or long) and slender'.], who became an ally of Elw in the first battles with the creatures of {Morgoth}[Melkor]. ...
Quote:
CE-EX-76 <Q&E Sindar{
Less commonly the form Sindel, pl. Sindeldi, is also met in Exilic Quenya. This} was the name given by the Exiled oldor [footnot: Lake Mithrim, meaning originally 'Lake of the Mithrim'. Mithrim was a name given to them by the southern-dwellers, because of the cooler climate and greyer skies, and the mists of the North. It was probably because the Noldor first came into contact with this northerly branch that they gave in Quenya the name Sindar or Sindeldi 'Grey-elves' to all the Telerin inhabitants of the Westlands who spoke the Sindarin language.
Though this name was also later held to refer to Elwe's name Thingol (Sindikollo) 'Grey-cloak', since he was acknowledged as high-king of all the land and its peoples. It is said also that the folk of the North were clad much in grey, especially after the return of {Morgoth}[Melkor] when secrecy became needed; and the Mithrim had an art of weaving a grey cloth that made its wearers almost invisible in shadowy places or in a stony land.
This art was later used even in the southern lands as the dangers of the War increased.] to the second largest of the divisions of the Eldar. [footnote: See above{, p. 381}<the 1st paragraph of this sub-chapter>. The proportion, per 144, of the Eldar remaining in Middle-earth was reckoned at 26, of which about 8 were Nandor.] It was applied to all the Elves of Telerin origin that the oldor found in Beleriand, though it later excluded the Nandor, except those who were the direct subjects of Elw, or had become merged with his people. The name meant 'the Grey', or 'the Grey-elves', and was derived from *THIN, PQ *thindi 'grey, pale or silvery grey', Q inde, dialect sinde. [footnote: On the origin of this name see {Note 11}<referenc tothe footnote above>]
The Loremasters also supposed that reference was made to the hair of the Sindar. ...
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Old 09-23-2015, 10:46 AM   #13
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Okay, I discovered a mistake of mine: Starting with CE-EX-73 I expanded a part of the LQ that was deliberately a summary of events told later in a much fuller account. The summary is given at this place to complete lingustical account (that is original in LQ) of the names of the Elvish groups. The next chapter 6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldali begins with the Vanyar and Noldor reaching the shore of Beleriand. Therefore here is only the palce for linguistic information to be added and not for expansion the story telling. I worked through the text again keeping that in mind and give it here starting with last paragraph before the changes begin. This paragraph is from an addition coming from Q&E:
Quote:
These names were however later replaced among the Sindar by the name 'Green-elves', at least as far as the inhabitants of Ossiriand were concerned; for they withdrew themselves and took as little part in the strife with {Morgoth}[Melkor] as they could. This name, S Laegel, pl. Laegil, class-plural Laegrim or Laegel(d)rim, was given both because of the greenness of the land of Lindon, and because the Laegrim clothed themselves in green as an aid to secrecy. This term the oldor translated into Quenya Laiquendi; but it was not much used.>
30 Others there were also of the Teleri that remained in Middle-earth. These were the Elves of Beleriand in the west of the Northern lands. They came from the host of Elw the Grey. He was lost in the woods and many of his folk sought him long in vain; and thus when their kindred departed over Sea they were left behind and went not into the West. Therefore they are called the Sindar, the Grey Elves, but themselves they named {Eglath}[ Egladrim], the Forsaken. CE-EX-75 <Q&E Less commonly the form Sindel, pl. Sindeldi, is also met in Exilic Quenya.> Elw after became their king, mightiest of all the {Alamanyar [correction to }Umanyar{ missed]}. He it was who was called Thingol in the language of Doriath. CE-EX-76 <Q&E Sindar{
Less commonly the form Sindel, pl. Sindeldi, is also met in Exilic Quenya. This} was the name given by the Exiled oldor [footnote: Lake Mithrim, meaning originally 'Lake of the Mithrim'. Mithrim was a name given to them by the southern-dwellers, because of the cooler climate and greyer skies, and the mists of the North. It was probably because the Noldor first came into contact with this northerly branch that they gave in Quenya the name Sindar or Sindeldi 'Grey-elves' to all the Telerin inhabitants of the Westlands who spoke the Sindarin language.
Though this name was also later held ...
This art was later used even in the southern lands ...
The Loremasters also supposed that reference was ... For which reason the Sindar often called them Lachend, pl. Lechind 'flame-eyed'.>
CE-EX-76.1 <Q&E The Sindar had no general name for themselves as distinct from other varieties of Elf, until other kinds entered Beleriand. ...
The old clan-name *Lindai survived in the compound Glinnel, pl. Glinnil, a word only known in historical lore, and the equivalent of Quenya Teleri or Lindar CE-EX-76.2{; see the Notes on the Clan-names below}. All the Sindarin subjects of King Elu-Thingol, as distinguished from the incoming Noldor, ...
While the Noldor were still distinct, ...
Odhil thus became specially the name of the Exiled Noldor.
In this sense the form Godhel, pl. Godhil soon replaced the older form. ... The name was, moreover, chiefly used by those who wished to mark the difference between the Noldor and the Sindar, and to ignore the dwelling of the Noldor in Aman which might give them a claim to superiority. CE-EX-76.3{This was especially the case in Doriath, where King Thingol was hostile to the Noldorin chieftains, Feanor and his sons, and Fingolfin, because of their assault upon the Teleri in Aman, the people of his brother Olw. }The Noldor, therefore, when using Sindarin, never applied this name (Golodh) to themselves, and it fell out of use among those friendly to them.
CE-EX-76.4{4. }The name Eglan, pl. Eglain, Egladrim{. This name}, 'the Forsaken', was, as has been said, given by the Sindar to themselves. ... But they acknowledged the high-kingship of Thingol, and Crdan never took the title of king.>[Footnote: Other names in song and tale are given to these peoples. The Vanyar are the Blessed Elves, and the Spear-elves, the Elves of the Air, the friends of the {Gods}[Valar], the Holy Elves and the Immortal, and the Children of Ingw; they are the Fair Folk and the White.
The Noldor are the Wise, and the Golden, the Valiant, the Sword-elves, the Elves of the Earth, the Foes of Melkor, the Skilled of Hand, the Jewel-wrights, the Companions of Men, the Followers of Finw.
The Teleri are the Foam-riders, the Singers of the Shore, the Free, and the Swift, and the Arrow-elves; they are the Elves of the Sea, the Ship-wrights, the Swanherds, the Gatherers of Pearl, the Blue Elves, the people of Olw. The Nandor are CE-EX-77{the Host of Dn, }the Wood-elves, the Wanderers, the Axe-elves, the Green Elves and the Brown, the Hidden People; and those that came at last to Ossiriand are the Elves of the Seven Rivers, the Singers Unseen, the Kingless, the Weaponless, and the Lost Folk, for they are now no more. The Sindar are the Lemberi, the Lingerers; they are the Friends of Oss, the Elves of the Twilight, the Silvern, the Enchanters, the Wards of Melian, the Kindred of Luthien, the people of Elw. Quoth Pengolod.]>
Here my comments on this new situation:
CE-EX-73 (with CE-SL-22) This Story is told in the next chapter. If the AAm has to be inserted there must be discussed when we edit that chapter.
CE-EX-74 Same is true for this material from [/b]LT[/b].
Accordingly 30 of the original LQ is restored.
CE-EX-75 and -76: These are unchanged from the last version.
CE-EX-76.1: This is a long addition from Q&E. It includes some farther information about the Sindar an general but also adds names in Sindarin for the Noldor and the devision of the Sindar themselves.
CE-EX-76.2: The reference was from one part of Q&E to an other, but due to my editing they are now very close together.
CE-EX-76.3: I removed this spoiler. The enmity between Thingol and the Feanorians should not be fortold.
CE-EX-76.4: Here I removed the structure of the Q&E text.
The last 3 paragraphs about the Crdans folk I would rather use in chapter 6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldali were also the essay Crdan is used.
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:58 PM   #14
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Silmaril My thoughts

Hi all! I have finished reviewing Findegil's changes for this section, and I will here place my thoughts. This will be quite a long post, so I apologize. Before I begin, I want to commend Findegil for doing such a thorough job of finding all relevant passages to be included.

all bits in italics are my proposed changes. Any section not remarked on is one I've agreed with completely.

CE-EX-01: I agree about this insertion, but your version is somewhat choppy, as it contains some repetition. Maybe:

Quote:
18 In all this time, since Melkor overthrew the Lamps, the Middle-earth east of the Mountains was without light. While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong. In those lands and forests Orom would often hunt; and there too at times Yavanna came, singing sorrowfully; for she was grieved {at the darkness of Middle-earth and ill content that it was forsaken.} <AAm because all the growth and promise of the spring of Arda was checked. And she set a sleep upon many fair things that had arisen in the Spring, both tree and herb and beast and bird, so that they should not age but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.> But the other Valar came seldom thither CE-EX-01
this way we keep the Sleep of Yavanna without repeating the wanderings of her and Orome. The next paragraph would simply pick up in the AAm insertion from before.

CE-SL-01: agreed. just a question, are we going with Ork or Orc?

CE-SL-02, -03, -04, -05, -06 and -07: I agree with the fact that they need change, but I have a few minor suggested changes. For 03 we should remove "again" from "the stars were again shining in the morrow-dim" because in this version they have always been shining, so there is no need to make note of their shining "again." For 04 In a similar vein, the preceding sentence reads: "It was still night and clouds were in the sky." we should no doubt change "still night" to "dark" because again, it was always night then. There is a reference you did not mark which I will call CE-SL-04.2 For 05 I think we could keep simply "by twilight" but we could also simply delete it. For 06 I think we should delete the reference to the Sun of summer. Inserting "later" to me seems awkward, and also seems to contradict that the sun was for Men and gave them the greatest joy. For 07 I would remove "in the spring of the year" because it was during the sleep of yavanna, and so there were no seasons.

CE-EX-05: I agree about the insertion. Two small things: in your version Cuivinen is missing its accent mark here and several other places, but that's minor. The other question is "Endon." the published Sil has Endor, so are we sure that "Endon" is the latest form?

CE-EX-07: This section does not work at all tonally or in its subject matter. This is Tolkien analysing the nature of Morgoth, and does not fit at all in this section.

CE-EX-08: The transition is jarring, and I think a subheading is need “Of Orcs.” If we remove the previous paragraph, then it should be placed here. Otherwise, this is good, as it flows with the narrative.

CE-EX-10: I could not find where it was moved to. Why is it out of place there?

CE-EX-11: this has too colloquial of a tone, maybe:

Quote:
CE-EX-11 <Letter to Mrs. Munby: There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords, {we naturally would not learn}[not] much [was learned] about their lives. {Not much was known}>.
The last sentence is redundant.

CE-SL-08: agreed.

I have one question:

Quote:
This view of the origin of the Orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take some comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behavior of Orcs – and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them. But is he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own in mockery of the Incarnates, he would, like Aul, only have succeeded in producing puppets : his creatures would have acted only while the attention of his will was upon them, and they would have shown no reluctance to execute any command of his, even if it were to destroy themselves.
In this version, is Of the Dwarves going with the Anaxartaron Onyalie? Or in the chapter Concerning the Naugrim and the Edain?

CE-EX-17: The text of the note is not finished, and so inserting it as is does not work. Perhaps a rewording of:

Quote:
CE-EX-17 <Myths Transformed, Text VIII: Orcs; but by practicing when embodied procreation they would {(cf. Melian) [}become{]} more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state, {(}even demon-form{)}, until released by death {(killing)}; and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, {like Sauron, }be {'damned': i.e.} reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically {(or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?)}.>
I removed the poltergeist reference. I think this is Tolkien simply thinking as he wrote, and does not fit into the flow of the narrative.

CE-EX-18: agreed.

I noticed that you stopped after
Quote:
This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.
Why not give the next paragraph?
Quote:
CE-EX-18.2 <Myths Transformed, Text X:Orcs It is true, of course, that {Morgoth}[Melkor] held the Orcs in dire thralldom; for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his ‘eye’ wherever they might be; and when {Morgoth}[Melkor] was at last removed from Arda the Orcs that survived in the West were scattered, leaderless and almost witless, and were for a long time without control or purpose.>
CE-EX-19, -20: The section above and this one make me wonder if this whole “Of Orcs” should be moved to the chapter “Of the Sindar.” This way we can use the Morgoth references, and the references to Angband will not seem so out of the blue. It has not been named before, unless I am mistaken.

CE-EX-21: The word (sterile!) is awkward. Maybe remove:

Quote:
CE-EX-21 <Myths Transformed, Text VIII: Orcs These may then even have been mated with beasts {(sterile!)} - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.>
CE-EX-22: see-19, -20 above.

CE-EX-24: I cannot find a source for the subheading, but this heading is plainly necessary, and the Captivity of Melkor is the period and the event it is describing, so it works.

CE-EX-26, -27: This section feels tonally jarring, perhaps some minor editing is needed. I agree with -27 however. Maybe:

Quote:
CE-EX-26 <LT Orom {pricks}[pricked] over the plain, and drawing rein he {shouts}[shouted] aloud so that all the ears in {Valmar}[Valimar] {may}[could] hear him: ‘Tulielto! Tulieito! - They have come - they have come!’ Then he {stands}[stood] midway between the Two Trees and {winds}{[wound]}[blew] his horn, and the gates of {Valmar}[Valimar] {are}[were] opened, and the {Vali}[Valar] {trooped}[came] into the plain, for they guessed that tidings of wonder {have}[had] come into the world. Then [i]{spake} Orom [spoke]: ‘Behold the woods of the Great Lands, even in {Palisor}[Endon/r] the midmost region where the pinewoods murmur unceasingly, are full of a strange noise. There did I wander, and lo! {'twas} [it was] as if folk arose betimes beneath the latest stars. There was a stir among the distant trees and words were spoken suddenly, and feet went to and fro. Then did I CE-EX-27{say what is this deed that Palrien my mother has wrought in secret, and I sought her out and questioned her, and she answered: “This is no work of mine, but the hand of one far greater did this.} think: 'Ilvatar hath awakened his children at the last - ride home to Valinor and tell the {Gods}[Valar] that the Eldar have come indeed!{”}’
Then shouted all the people of Valinor: ‘I-Eldar tulier - the Eldar have come’ - and it was not until that hour that the {Gods}[Valar] knew that their joy had contained a flaw, or that they had waited in hunger for its completion, but now they knew that the world had been an empty place beset with loneliness having no children for her own.>
CE-EX-28: Similar to the last one, the tone is somewhat jarring. Maybe:

Quote:
CE-EX-28 <LT and of the redes there spoken the {Gods}[Valar] devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aul and the wide knowledge of Manw. Behold, Aul now gathered six metals: copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his {magic}[power] a seventh which he named therefore tilcal, and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its color was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aul alone could forge it. Thereafter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness, but of tilcal he had not sufficient to add more than a little to each link. Nonetheless he made two manacles of tilcal only and four fetters likewise. Now the chain was named Angainor, the oppressor{, and the manacles Vorotemnar that bind forever, but the fetters Ilterendi for they might not be filed or cleft}.
But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with great power - and to entreat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to overcome him by force or guile, and set him in a bondage from which there should be no escape.>
The names for the manacles and fetters seem to need extensive linguistic revision, and so maybe it is best to leave them out.

CE-SL-12: Why was “and make an end” removed?

CE-EX-30, -31, -32, -33, -34, and -35: The first part of this section feels to me to be very much against the tone and presentation of the Valar in the later legendarium. They are presented as physical pagan gods in war gear, whereas Tolkien later came to view the Valar as more spiritual and demiurgic in their conflicts. This description of them seems to reduce them from their state in the later legendarium as the Powers of the Earth to simply pagan gods. However, if we want to retain it, we must remove the reference to Salmar and Omar, as they were not major figures in the later legendarium:

Quote:
CE-EX-30 <LT Now as Aul smithied the {Gods}[Valar] arrayed themselves in armor, CE-EX-31{ which they had of Makar, and he was fain to see them} putting on weapons and going as to war CE-EX-32{, howso their wrath be directed against Melko}. But when the great {Gods}[Valar] and all their folk were armed, then Manw climbed into his blue chariot whose three horses were the whitest that roamed in Orom's domain, and his hand bore a great white bow that would shoot an arrow like a gust of wind across the widest seas. CE-EX-33{Fionwe his son stood behind him and Nornore}[Enw] who was his herald ran before; but Orom rode alone upon CE-EX-34{a chestnut}[Nahar his] horse and had a spear, and Tulkas strode mightily beside his stirrup, having a tunic of hide and a brazen belt and no weapon save a gauntlet upon his right hand, iron-bound. CE-EX-35 {Telimektar his son but just war-high was by his shoulder with a long sword girt about his waist by a silver girdle. }There rode the {Fanturi}[Fanturi] upon a car of black, and there was a black horse upon the side of Mandos and a dappled grey upon the side of Lrin, {and Salmar and Omar came behind running speedily,} but Aul who was late tarrying overlong at his smithy came last, and he was not armed, but caught up his long-handled hammer as he left his forge and fared hastily to the borders of the Shadowy Sea, and the fathoms of his chain were borne behind by four of his smithy-folk. Upon those shores Falman-Oss met them and drew them across on a mighty raft whereon he himself sat in shimmering mail; but Ulmo {Vailimo}[Vaiaro] was far ahead roaring in his deep-sea car and trumpeting in wrath upon a horn of conches.
The last part may be kept, even if we discard the first, but will then require revision:

[quote] { Thus was it that}[Then] the {Gods}[Valar] got them over the sea and through the isles, and set foot upon the wide lands, and marched in great power and anger ever more to the North. Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.>

CE-EX-37: Ringil should be Illuin

CE-EX-39, -40, -41, -42, and -43: This section is tonally jarring in many places, being an analytical text of motives, and often does not translate well into narrative form. I will recommend my changes:

Quote:
CE-EX-39 <MT; VI But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming CE-EX-40{the Morgoth, }a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), {{+}plus}[considered with the sum of] his agents{’}. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if {'}the CE-EX-41{Morgoth}[tyrant]{'} could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and {on a power level with}[equal to] the Valar. The Valar {find}[found] that they {can}[could] deal with his agents {(sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.)} {piecemeal}[individually]. So {that} they {come}[came] at last to Utumno itself and {find}[found] that {'the Morgoth'}[Melkor] {has}[had] no longer for the moment sufficient {'}force{'} {(in any sense)} to shield himself from direct personal contact . CE-EX-42 <LT{and now they follow}[And now the Valar followed] Manw and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil {magic}[power], and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof.> Manw at last {faces}[faced] Melkor again, as he {has}[had] not done since he entered Arda. Both {are}[were] amazed: Manw to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view{:}[; as] he {has}[had] now less personal force than Manw, and {can}[could] no longer daunt him with his gaze.
{Either}{Manw} {must tell}{[told] him} {so or}{/and/ he}[He] {must }himself suddenly {realize (or both) }[realized] that this {has}[had] happened: he {is}[had] {'}dispersed{'}. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, {has}[had] become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (/as it /possibly was by absolute and unfeigned self-abasement and repentance only) he {cannot}[could not] bring himself to do it. [footnote to the text: One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his {'}creatures{'}, CE-EX-43{Orcs, Balrogs, etc.} power of recuperation and multiplication{. So}[, so] that they {will}[would] gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power {has}[had] gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control.] {As with all other characters there must be}{/In/ a trembling}[There was a] moment {when it is}[when]/he was/ in the balance{:}[; and] he nearly {repents}[repented]- and {does}[did] not, and {becomes}[became] much wickeder, and more foolish.
Possibly (and he {thinks}[thought] it possible) he could {now} at that moment be humiliated against his own will and {'}chained{'} - if and before his dispersed forces {reassemble}[reassembled]. So - as soon as he {has}[had] mentally rejected repentance - he {(just like Sauron afterwards on this model)} {makes}[made] a mockery of self-abasement and repentance. From {which}[this] actually he {gets}[got]a {kind of} perverted pleasure as in desecrating something holy - [[footnote] for the mere contemplating of the possibility of genuine repentance, if that did not come specially then as a direct grace from Eru, was at least one last flicker of his true primeval nature.] He {feigns}[feigned] remorse and repentance. He {actually}[even] {kneels}[knelt] before Manw and {surrenders}[surrendered] - in the first instance to avoid being chained by the Chain Angainor, which once upon him he {fears}[feared] would not ever be able to be shaken off. But also suddenly he {has}[had] the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he {offers}[offered] to become {'}the least of the Valar{'}, and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he {has}[had] done. It {is}[was] this offer which {seduces}[seduced] or {deludes}[deluded] Manw[.]{ -} Manw {must be shown to have}/had/ his own inherent fault (though not sin) {[footnote to the text: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]}: he {has}[had] become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering { - even 'keeping the status quo' -} to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations. [Thus,] against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he {grants}[granted] Melkor's prayer.
CE-EX-45: Some changes:

Quote:
CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is} a court [was] set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali great and small} [Valar] {,lying bound before} [and] the silver chair of Manw. Against him {speaketh}[spoke] Oss, and Orom, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vna in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violence.
I left the silver chair of Manwe in bc there is no reason to delete it as long as Melkor is not bound. But the line about the Vali feels very “lost tales” and not very “silmarillion.”

CE-SL-15: agreed. But shortly after this there are some lines that are awkward:

Quote:
But at the council Melkor {is}[was] not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}[was] remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress ).
Then {he begins}[Melkor began] to doubt the wisdom of his own policy, and would have rejected it all and burst out into flaming rebellion[.] {- but}[But] he {is}[was] now absolutely isolated from his agents and in {enemy territory}[the lands of his enemies] {. He}[and he] {cannot}/could not do this/. Therefore he {swallows}[swallowed] the bitter pill (but it greatly {increases}[increased] his hate, and he ever {afterward}[afterwards] accused Manw of being faithless).>
Just cleared out a few colloquialisms and cleaned up the sentence structure so that it resembles a narrative format rather than an analytical essay.

CE-EX-48, -49: looks good, except {Valmar}[Valimar] and {Palisor}[Endon/r]

CE-EX-50, -51: This requires some changes:

Quote:
CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar {– ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world ?’} In this {Measse}[Mandos and Ninna] backed him. {and Mandos and {Fui}[Ninna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else;} {yet}[Yet] was Varda vehement in support of Yavanna and Tuivna, and indeed her love for the Eldar has ever been the greatest of all the folk of Valinor; and Aul and Lrin, Orom and Nessa CE-EX-51{ and Ulmo most mightily} proclaimed their desire for the bidding of the Eldar to dwell among the {Gods}[Valar].
Wherefore, {albeit Oss spake cautiously against it – belike out of that ever-smoldering jealousy and rebellion he felt against Ulmo - }it was the voice of the council that the Eldar should be bidden, and the {Gods}[Valar] awaited but the judgement of Manw.
I took out the quote of Makar, as Ulmo would never say this. This is not his reason for opposing the March. He wishes them to be free, not to be rid of them. I also removed Osse, since he is not a Valar, and in this version he isn’t “rebelling against Ulmo” since he’s agreeing with him.

CE-EX-52: This requires minor editing:

Quote:
[b]CE-EX-53 <LT Now once more {is}[was a] council set and Manw {sitteth}[sat] before the {Gods}[Valar] there amid the Two Trees - and those had now borne light for four ages. Every one of the {Vali}[Valar] {fare}[fared] thither, even Ulmo {Vailimo}[Vaiaro] in great haste from the Outer Seas, and his face is eager and glad.
CE-EX-56: This needs some work, firstly because of the mention of Silmo watering the roots of Silpion. If he is to be included in Chapter 2, then this reference can stand. As for the speeches of the Elves, I changed it to be more general, bc in this version they are not the first generation of Elves:

Quote:
CE-EX-56 <LT {Behold}[behold] now brought by {Nornore}[Enw] the three Elves stood before the {Gods}[Valar], and it was at that time the changing of the lights, and {Silpion}[Telperion] was waning but Laurelin was awakening to his greatest glory. {even as Silmo emptied the urn of silver about the roots of the other Tree} Then those Elves..…
But {Noleme}[Finw] answering said: ‘Lo! Most mighty one, whence indeed come we! For {meseems I}[our fathers] awoke {but now} from a sleep eternally profound, whose vast dreams already are forgotten.’ And {Tinwe}[Elw] said thereto that {his heart}[their hearts] told {him}[them] that {he was}[they were] {new-}come from illimitable regions, yet he might not recollect by what dark and strange paths {he}[they] had been brought; and last spake {Inwe}[Ingw], who had been gazing upon Laurelin while the others spake, and he said: ‘Knowing neither whence {I}[we] come nor by what ways nor yet whither I go, the world that we are in is but one great wonderment to me, and methinks I love it wholly, yet it fills me altogether with a desire for light.’
Then Manw saw that Ilvatar had {wiped}[removed] from the minds of the Eldar all knowledge of the manner of their coming, and that the {Gods}[Valar] might not discover it; and he was filled with deep astonishment.{…} Turning to the three Eldar he said: ‘Go ye back now to your kindreds and {Nornore}[Enw] shall bring you swiftly there, even to {Koivie-neni}[Cuivinen] in {Palisor}[Endon/r] . Behold, this is the word of Manw Slimo, and the voice of the Valar's desire, that the people of the Eldali, the Children of Ilvatar, fare to Valinor, and there dwell in the splendor of Laurelin and the radiance of {Silpion}[Telperion] and know the happiness of the {Gods}[Valar]. An abode of surpassing beauty shall they possess, and the {Gods}[Valar] will aid them in its building.’
CE-EX-58, -58.3, -58.4, -58.5: These are fine, but the “(see below)” should be removed. The reader will see for themselves as they read on.

CE-EX-59 to the end of -60: These sections should go under the next section, to be consistent.

CE-EX-65 till the end: The complex philological discussions of the Elven clan names should be included, but I do not think they belong in the narrative itself. I think the QS (and AAm) sections should be put under the main “Of the Captivity of Melkor” heading, and the clan names, including the Avari discussion, should be placed under the subheading “The Clan Names, with Notes on Other Names of the Divisions of the Eldar.” To leave it as is is to ruin the flow of the narrative entirely, and make it virtually unreadable.

Phew, that was a long one! Fndegil, you did an incredible job synthesizing so many varied sources of such differing types, and I really have to commend you!
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Old 08-22-2017, 05:44 PM   #15
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Silmaril Missed Addition

I was just throwing together a draft for the next chapter and I saw a good addition from the Grey Annals for the Captivity of Melkor. Maybe in this way:

Quote:
Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the {Gods}[Valar]. In those days the shape of Middle-earth was changed and broken and the seas were moved.
CE-EX-35.2 <GA In these regions, therefore, were fought the first battles of the Powers of the West and the North, and all this land was much broken, and it took then that shape which it had until the coming of {Fionwe}[Enw]. For the Great Sea broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward, and many lesser bays were made between the Great Gulf and Helcarax far in the North, where Middle-earth and Aman came nigh together. Of these bays the Bay of Balar was the chief; and into it the mighty river Sirion flowed down from the new-raised highlands northwards: Dorthonion and the mountains about Hithlum. At first these lands upon either side of Sirion were ruinous and desolate because of the War of the Powers, but soon growth began there, while most of Middle earth slept in the Sleep of Yavanna, because the Valar of the Blessed Realm had set foot there; and there were young woods under the bright stars. These Melian the Maia fostered; and she dwelt most in the glades of Nan Elmoth beside the River Celon. There also dwelt her nightingales.>
CE-SL-13{ Tulkas it was who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him}
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Old 08-22-2017, 07:17 PM   #16
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Hello guys,

I just wanted to let you know that I have read through ArcusCalions comments. Thanks for the detailed criticism. I think some of your suggestion will make it to the final text. (e.g. your CE-EX-35.2). I as well have read your misplaced post in thread about the Athrabeth (probably you should replace it there with a comment that is a misplaced post and but it in here). I will have to read through all this again with my original text beside and my own comments to my changes as well. But it is late already here in Europe (3 oclock in the night actually) and I will therefore postpone that. (Since I am very occupied in real life, am not sure how soon that might be.)

But one more general comment might be in order: I can see your point that the stuff from MT is awkward in style if taken to stand inside a narrative. But we have to be careful in that territory. The project once to the great annoyance of one of its initiators decided to shy bake from any stylistic change. That meant our finished work is not supposed to have any high literature value. (At least in the first step. If motivation would last - as it seems it has not - the members that wanted the stylistic changes envisioned a second phase, in which they would go through the finished work again and remove all the tonally jarring jumps.)

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I see the need to have my draft of the chapters before this one up here in the forum, and to work on that was what brought me here today in the first place.
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Old 08-22-2017, 07:53 PM   #17
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What post do you mean Findegil? All my posts in the Athrabeth thread were there by intention.
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:59 PM   #18
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Okay at least a first go at the comments of ArcusCalion:
CE-EX-01: If we have to fragment our sources farther to make them work together than I think this might be the better arangement:
Quote:
<$18 In all this time ... In those lands and forests Orom would often hunt; and there too at times Yavanna came, singing sorrowfully; for she was grieved at the darkness of Middle-earth and ill content that it was forsaken{.} CE-EX-01<AAm and because all the growth and promise of the spring of Arda was checked. And she set a sleep upon many fair things that had arisen in the Spring, both tree and herb and beast and bird, so that they should not age but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.> But the other Valar came seldom thither{;}. CE-EX-01.2 But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he slept not, but watched and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread>; and in the North Melkor built his strength, and gathered his demons about him. ...
Ork or Orc: As far as I remember it should be Orc, since that is what JRR Tolkien used in his publication, even so he changed his mind and wrote in a remark that he in futre would use Ork, it was never changed in The Hobbit or LotR.

CE-SL-03: Agreed.

CE-SL-03.8: 'still night' to 'dark' in the sentence before CE-SL-04: Agreed.

CE-SL-04.2: Please explain what you nominated with this? I could not find any change in between CE-SL-04 and CE-SL-05.

CE-SL-05: Agreed.

CE-SL-06: Agreed.

CE-SL-07: But the comparision is with later times when there was a 'morrowdim' and 'even-dim' and with that for sure as well seasons.

CE-EX-05: Cuivinen: Thank you for finding. I will corret it.
Endon/Endor: Frankly speaking I don't know. Please feel free to research this since I am away from my books.


CE-EX-07; CE-EX-08: I do not agree that CE-EX-07 'does not work at all in its subject matter.' The subject is exactly Melkor's corrupting power which anabled him to creat the Orks. I agree so that it might be better to adapt it 'tonally' at least slightly (see below). To better the transition we might reinstall CE-EX-06 after CE-EX-07 and if you still feel the need of a sub-heading that should be inserted before 45 and it should be simply 'Orcs' taken from Myths Transformed, Text VIII or do we have a sub-heading some where in our source texts 'Of Orcs'? All this would lead to:
Quote:
... and all the noblest of the Quendi were drawn towards it.
CE-EX-05.5 <Myths Transformed, Text VIII: Orcs Orcs
>$45 But those hapless ... were corrupted and enslaved. CE-EX-07 <Myths Transformed, Text VIII: Orcs {It does however seem best to view }Melkor's corrupting power {as }always {starting}started, at least, in the moral or theological level. ... and suffering a slow progressive weakening of their bodies.>CE-EX-06 Thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orkor in envy and mockery of the Eldar, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.
CE-EX-08 <Myths Transformed, Text IX The Elves from their earliest times invented and used a word ...
CE-EX-10: Mh, I couldn't find the later place either. So we probabaly should reinstall it here.

CE-EX-11: I agree on the last sentence, but I do not see why we would need the change in the first.

Chapter '3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles' has the following sub-chapters:
'Of Aul and the Dwarves' with the sub-heading 'Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim' and
'Anaxartaron Onyalie' with the sub-heading 'Of Ents and Eagles'.

CE-EX-17: Why do oyu remove the '(', ')' around 'even demon form'?
I also do not see the need to delet '(killing)'.
The same is true for the removal of ''damned': i.e.'. We might aksed damned by whom? But or reads might ask that question as well. And their answer is as good as ours.
I am not willing to let the 'poltergeist' slip away that easy! May be we change her to make it less essay like formulation:
Quote:
... make it effective physikally ({or would }a very dwindled dea Orc-state might be a poltergeist{?}).>
CE-EX-18.2: I did not take that because I thaught of using it together with the follwoing , probably as in insertion into the Story of the Alliance between Moria and the Northmann in the Second Age.

CE-EX-19, CE-EX-20: Angband is mention at the end of Chapter 1.

CE-EX-21: To remove 'sterile' is a no-go for me. The emphasis (!) is Tolkiens and the whole note shows that there was a way of 'sterile' cross breading, at least for the big bad bosses. This info is what I think we must transport, and with removing the 'sterile' we would loss that.

CE-EX-24: That is what 'editorial addition' means: An addition with out source in Tolkiens texts.

CE-EX-26, CE-EX-27: I agree on {Palisor}[Endon/r]. But the rest of your changes is only for reason of stlye. In this phase 1 of the project we have up to know kept away from such changes.

CE-EX-28: Okay, here I agree at least to a few changes: 'magic' might be out of place for the crafts of the Valar. So I agree to the change of magic to power in the making of tilkal. In the footnote I would change 'magic' names to 'poetic' names.
Can you give at least a hint what is linguistically wrong with 'Vorotemnar' and 'Ilterendi' -just for the record.

CE-SL-12: I removed 'and make an end' because only two sentences above we learn that the war was undertaken without hope of real victory. What else would 'an end' (of what so ever) be, than real victory?

Okay, here I have to stop to get at least a tinny bit of sleep. I will go on as soon as times allows.

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Old 08-25-2017, 09:34 AM   #19
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CE-EX-01: agreed.

CE-SL-04.2: Looking now, I cannot find what I was referencing, so I was probably making a mistake.

CE-EX-05: I have just looked into it, and it seems the latest form was Endor, as in the Sil77:

Quote:
The reference to the site of Kuivienen is interesting. Of this no more is said in the other tradition than that it lay in the East of the Middle-earth (QS $20, preserved throughout the later tests). In AAm Kuivienen lay N.E. of Endon, the midmost point. In the list of names accompanying the Ambarkanta (IV. 241) appears ambar-endya or Middle Earth of which Endor is the midmost point, and Endor is written over the centre of the middle-land in the Ambarkanta diagrams (IV.243,245) on the map (IV.248-9) it is marked as a point: Endor Earth-middle, and here it was corrected to Endon, the form in the present passage of AAm, though later changed back again to Endor (so also on the typescript of AAm my father correctedEndon to Endor here and in $41, p. 80). See IV.254-5.
CE-EX-11: I felt it was tonally off, but now that I know we are not changing the style of things to be congruent, then the first sentence must stay as it is.

CE-EX-17: I agree about killing, but to me the word 'damned' and the word 'theological' are too grounded in real world terminology to be applicable in the Ardan conception. but this might be again the issue of style and I am not sure if would fall under the banner of things not to be changed. Your poltergeist addition looks good.

CE-EX-81.2: Ah ok that makes sense

CE-EX-21: I see that you are right, but sterile cannot simply stand as is, even with the hesitation to change the style. This is simply not in narrative format at all, and should possibly be changed to:

Quote:
These may then even have been mated with beasts ([and these were] sterile{!}) - and later Men.
CE-EX-28: to be honest, I have no real reason to think they are linguistically invalid, beyond the fact that they do not quite "sound" right to me. However, if no one has any greater knowledge of Quenya evolution than me, I suppose they should stay.

CE-SL-12: makes sense.
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Old 08-26-2017, 07:36 AM   #20
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CE-EX-07 & CE-EX-17: For 'theological' I can see your reason to find it out of place in a Middle-earth jargon. And I agree hasintatingly to remove it. But for 'damned'? Why should that not be used?

CE-EX-21: I see that your interpretation what the 'sterile' insert means is completely differnt from my one. For me it was a qualifier for the process not for the outcome and it was a kind of precaussion against accusation of Zoophilia. It seems that we can not change the sentence, since we would fix then one interpretation.

CE-EX-28: Okay, I will at least try to look abit more intensliy, if I find arguments against the elvish names.

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Old 08-26-2017, 09:25 AM   #21
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Damned is not bad, I suppose the quotation marks seem out of place.

CE-EX-21: even if we had different interpretations, we cannot simply leave it as (sterile!) as that is not grammatically correct at all, as tolkien was simply jotting thoughts down. We must either remove it or pick one.
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Old 08-27-2017, 06:32 AM   #22
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CE-EX-21 What is so wrong with such an insertion, operating as an qualifier? I suppose the exclamation mark is wrong in a way. So if that would help we can skip that.

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Old 08-27-2017, 11:12 AM   #23
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Okay, I try a second go on the comments:

CE-EX-30: This is editing mark is for the complet insert from LT of the armour taking of the Valar. As I wrote in my first comment, I am also not quite sure if this is to be taken or not. As argument for pro: we have included physical descriptions of the Valar. We see them here prepairing themself for a physical war. Probably unexpacted for the Valar the main physical action is not against Melkor but against his agents.
About Salmar and Omar: Even in the Lost Tales they are no major figures. So I don't see why this should disqualify them here.
Your change in the last part is stylistic and I would do it. But I looking that up I saw an other miss:
Quote:
... Thus they passed the {Mountains of Iron}[Ered Wethrin] and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. ...
The concept of the Mountains of Iron changed, so that the Valar would not reach but leave Hithlum when crossing them.

CE-EX-37: Agreed. But was not Illuin the name only of the Lamp? I would there correct in this way:
Quote:
CE-EX-37 <LT There in the deepest North beyond even the shattered pillar {Ringil}[of Illuin] {they}[the Valar] came upon the huge gates of deep {Utumna}[Utumno], and {Melko}[Melkor] shut them with great clangour before their faces.
CE-EX-39: This is the reference for the complete insert. And yes it is a anayltic text that is not transforming on itself to narrative.
About your proposed changes in detail:

1. 'a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), {+}[considered with the sum of] his agents’: The consideration is what follows. I think what Tolkien meant here was Melkor was no longer the central figure only but had created agents to which he had given part of his former self, at least of his power. Therefore I would either stick to 'plus' or replace by 'and'.

2. '{on a power level with}[equal to]': Why do you want to change this? I agree that it is not best style, but the change to 'equal' bad because that was true before as well, as he ever had been of the same order of beeings.

3. '{(sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.)} {piecemeal}[individually]. So {that} they': For all three changes I can only see reason of style. Or do I miss some thing here.

4. 'sufficient {'}force{'} {(in any sense)}': Why should we remove that qualifier?

5. 'evil {magic}[power]': The critisem on 'magic' that is uttered by Galadriel in LotR is only concerned with fact that the word was applied to both the evil deceits of the enemy and the works of elvish craft. So I would think in this circumstance 'magic' is valid.

6. 'his own point of view{:}[; as] he {has}[had] now': This is changing the sense of the construction! The dubble point makes the observation that followes the reference of the sentence before. The semicolon makes it to a kind of addition, with the reference of the sentence before changing to the next paragraph. At least I am strongly against this change.

7. '{Either}{Manw} {must tell}{[told] him} {so or}{/and/ he}[He] {must }himself suddenly {realize (or both) }[realized] that this {has}[had] happened: he {is}[had] {'}dispersed{'}.': By changing the passage in this way you decised what happend. That is not realy what we want to do. But I agree that as it stands the sentence is problematic in a narative. But then we should go with Tolkiens after thought and not with ours and taking his insert '(or both)' as a guide for our editing. That was what I tried.

8. 'power of recuperation and multiplication{. So}[, so] that they {will}[would]': Changing the point to a comma is pure style. We should shy back from this especially in a footnote. {will}[would]: I can agree to that, if we would consider the world cleand from all agents of Melkor. But then which event in the history should have done that cleaning? As I understood the concept the 'would' is true in 'Arda remade', but as I undertand it our narative is still told in 'Arda marred'.

9. 'creative power {has}[had] gone out': Agreed, but it is change for grammatical reasons, so I will formate it with underlining.

10. '{As with all other characters there must be}{/In/ a trembling}[There was a] moment {when it is}[when]/he was/': Your suggestion of 'There was' is good and I agree also to the restoration of 'when', but why do you want the remove 'trembling'?

11. 'in the balance{:}[; and] he nearly {repents}[repented]': Again this change at least for me does interfere with the sense of the construction, which I am at al loos to allow.

12. 'he could {now} at that moment': What is the reason to remove the 'now'?

13. '{(just like Sauron afterwards on this model)}': I can see some reason for the removal. So I agree to it. Probably we can use it as back reference in Second Age stuff.

14. 'From {which}[this] actually he {gets}[got]a {kind of} perverted pleasure': Again for both your changes I can only see reason of style. If I miss some other reasoning, please explain.

15. '[[footnote to the text] for the mere contemplating of the possibility of genuine repentance, if that did not come specially then as a direct grace from Eru, was at least one last flicker of his true primeval nature.]': I can see your reasoning to move that sentence to a footnote, but this might open the flood gate. The sentence was not a footnote in the original text, so we should keep it in the main body of the text. If necessary we might change it in fromating or in formulation.

16. 'He {actually}[even] {kneels}[knelt] before Manw': Please explain your reason behind this change.

17. '{deludes}[deluded] Manw[.]{ -} Manw {must be shown to have}/had/': I agree to this change. It might be called styleish but on the other hand do we lift a text from analyses to narative, and some small alterations are possible.

18. '{[footnote to the text: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]}': Why do you want to remove this footnote? It is in it content not more critical as the one you wanted to creat out of the remark about Melkors primeval nature.

19. '{ - even 'keeping the status quo' -}': Again I see no reason to remove this insertion. On the contatray, I fell that with removing it we take away some information that Tolkien did provide.

CE-EX-45: I agree to change {Vali}[Valar] and as well to the restoration of the 'silver chair of Manwe', but with the concept of the nine great once we can still speak about 'great and small Valar'.

CE-SL-15: I agree to your changes of interpunctation. But '{enemy territory}[the lands of his enemies]' is a pure style change in my point of view. And I wouldn't take 'and' as the connectore for the 'He could not do this' but rather 'therefore'.

CE-EX-48 & CE-EX-49: Agreed.

CE-EX-50 & CE-EX-51: I agree on the Ulmo part. But for Osse, I would rather let him speak cautioulsy against it without the reasoning. My (bad) idea behind keeping the reasoning was that it now would refer to the 'cautiously', but that is bad editing as it is changing the sense.

CE-EX-56:
Silmo is refered to in chapter 2.

Silpion is still a valid name for Telperion so it should stand.

The changes you made to the speech of the elvish ambassadore seem good to me, I just do not see why you removed 'new-' from 'new-come'.

'Ilvatar had {wiped}[removed] from the minds': Pure style, or not?

'{Palisor}[Endo

Last edited by Findegil; 08-30-2017 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:22 PM   #24
ArcusCalion
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CE-EX-30: I am pretty strongly inclined against including it, despite the awesome battle descriptions, for the reasons I've already stated. As for Omar and Salmar, my complaint I guess fits more about Omar, as he is most likely not included in the Valaquenta or the Of the Beginning of Time chapters, and thus has no introduction. If he is to be kept here and in Chapter 2, a description of his entry to Arda is probably needed.

CE-EX-39: 1. I think the "and" is better than "plus".

2. "on a power level with" is very colloquial writing, but as you say we shouldnt change style, so fine. In my defense tho, it says in the MT essays that Manwe was less powerful than Melkor originally, but that he became coeval later.

3. it was just for style.

4. I see now that we should not remove it.

5. fair enough, I agree with you.

6. Fair enough

7. I do not understand your objection to my revision. I merely changed the tenses and rearranged the words to flow more naturally. Nothing of the original sense was changed.

8. It is not pure style, as the "So that they will gather again without further specific orders." is not a sentence, and cannot remain as it is. By joining it to the previous one, I lost nothing of the meaning, while fixing the grammatical impossibility.

9. Yay

10. If i removed "trembling" it was a typo on my part.

11. agreed, it should stay as is.

12. the "now" seemed redundant, but it is Tolkien's writing, so we should probably leave it.

13. Sounds good.

14. It is indeed style, so it may remain unchanged.

15. Tolkien marked it with square brackets, but gave no indication why. That is why I moved it to a footnote.

16. it was grammar, as it was not a sentence as it stood. By changing "which" to "this" it became a sentence instead of a clause, and I changed to past tense to match the rest of the narrative. removing "kind of" was purely style however.

17. Yay

18. I do not know why I removed this footnote.

19. I removed it because, while I agree it is important, it makes use of a colloquialism that would not exist in Middle-earth. Status-quo is a literal latin phrase that we use in English as an idiom, and so feels jarring in a Middle-earth writing, much like tolkien describing Quenya as the "Elf-latin."

CE-EX-45: May we at least change "small" to "lesser?" if not I suppose I will agree, but it feels very Lost Tales and not very Quenta Silm.

CE-SL-15: agreed.

CE-EX-50,-51: agreed

CE-EX-56: I removed the "new" because they were not new-come from beyond Ea, as they were not the first Elves in the later conception. "removed" rather than "wiped" was indeed pure style.

CE-EX-59-60: This is the dsicussion of the phonology of the word for Quendi and Calaquendi and Moriquendi. I was merely suggesting that we move them along with the following linguistic discussion to a seperate section at the end of the chapter.

CE-EX-65-End: I will do a draft of that as soon as possible.

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Old 08-30-2017, 02:38 PM   #25
Findegil
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CE-EX-30: First the easy stuff: Omar. You are right I did forget that I skipped him from 2, So he has to be skipped here as well.
It is interesting that you are so enthusiastic about taking up the description of the mansions of the Valar in chapter 2 but here are so much against including the weapon taking. We have to think what we are dealing with here: A story told by the Valar to the Elves and then handed down probably by many steps through mannish and hobbitish hands. How do we think the Valar would tell the story of this early war? Most probably in a picturesque symbolical way that would be understandable to the Children of Ilvatar. And in addition, is these description so much of the tone, seeing the late tale of Tuor:
Quote:
And the wave came towards him, and upon it lay a mist of shadow. Then suddenly as it drew near it curled, and broke, and rushed forward in long arms of foam; but where it had broken there stood dark against the rising storm a living shape of great height and majesty.
Then Tuor bowed in reverence, for it seemed to him that he beheld a mighty king. A tall crown he wore like silver, from which his long hair fell down as foam glimmering in the dusk and as he cast back the grey mantle that hung about him like a mist, behold! he was clad in a gleaming coat, close-fitted as the mail of mighty fish, and in a kirtle of deep green that flashed and flickered with sea-fire as he strode slowly towards the land. In this manner the Dweller of the Deep, whom the Noldor name Ulmo, Lord of Waters, showed himself to Tuor son of Huor of the House of Hador beneath Vinyamar.
CE-EX-39: 7. When I read what is left, it is only Melkor who realised what had happend. But Tolkiens text tends in my point of to both Manw and Melkor realizing it. Probabaly it is helpful to give this passage as edited by me in plain text:
Quote:
Manw told him and he himself suddenly realized that this had happened: he 'dispersed'.
8. Yes, my criticism was to hard here. I see now your reasons. I agree to join the sentences. But I still have some doubts about changing the tense. If we see Middle-earth as an imaginary past not as an imaginary space (as Tolkien clearly did), then the past tense would only be necessary if all Melkor ingredient would have been cleaned. For me the use of will here does show that Tolkien didnt thought it was.
15. As I said the reason is clear, but the way you dealed with it, is rather blocked in my opinion. I am inclined just to remove the square brackets.
16. Okay, I agree on the two change {which}[this], but we will keep kind of.
18. Oaky, then we will keep it.
19. Yes, I can follow your argument about status quo. What about changing it to present state?

CE-EX-45: Now a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and Melkor arraigned before all the Valar great and lesser and before the silver chair of Manw. That doesnt sound right form. Are you sure that is what you would like?

CE-EX-56: I agree that the speaker were not new-come, but both Finw and Elw speak about the experience and thoughts of the first Elves, not of their own. Therefore I think the new in new-come should stand.
What follows is a slightly amended draft as proposed by ArcusCalion. I will comment on the changes I introduce in comparison to the one that ArcusCalion below. Overall I am okay with the rearnagement.
Quote:
CE-EX-57 <AAm 57 Then befell the first sundering of the Elvenfolk. For the kindred of Ingw, and the most part of the kindreds of Finw and Olw, were swayed by the words of their lords, and were willing to depart and follow Orom.> This they did of their free will, and yet were swayed by the majesty of the {Gods}[Valar], ere their own wisdom was full grown. The Elves that obeyed the summons and followed the three kings are called the Eldar, by the name that Orom gave them; for he was their guide and led them at the last unto Valinor. CE-EX-58{Yet there were many who preferred the starlight and the wide spaces of the Earth to the rumour of the glory of the Trees, and they remained behind. These are called the Avari, the Unwilling.} <AAm But the kindreds of Morw and Nurw were unwilling and refused the summons, preferring the starlight and the wide spaces of the Earth to the rumour of the Trees. Now these dwelt furthest from the waters of {Kuivienen}[Cuivinen], and wandered in the hills, and they had not seen Orom at his first coming, and of the Valar they knew no more than shapes and rumours of wrath and power as they marched to war. And mayhap the lies of Melkor concerning Orom and Nahar (that above were recalled) lived still among them, so that they feared him as a demon that would devour them. These are the Avari, the Unwilling, and they were sundered in that time from the Eldar, and met never again until many ages were past.> CE-EX-58.3 <Q&E This name, evidently made by the Eldar at the time of the Separation, is found in histories in the Quenya form Avari, and the Telerin form Abari. It was still used by the historians of the Exiled Noldor, though it hardly differed from Moriquendi, which CE-EX-58.4{(see above) }was no longer used by the Exiles to include Elves of Eldarin origin. The plural Evair was known to Sindarin loremasters, but was no longer in use. Such Avari as came into Beleriand wereCE-EX-58.5{, as has been said,} called Morben, or Mornedhel.>
24 The Eldar prepared now a great march and behind him the Eldali were arrayed in three hosts.
25 The smallest host and the first to set forth was led by Ingw, the most high lord of all the Elvish race. He entered into Valinor and sits at the feet of the Powers, and all Elves revere his name; but he has never returned nor looked again upon Middle-earth. The {Lindar [> }Vanyar{]} were his folk, fairest of the Quendi; they are the High Elves, and the beloved of Manw and Varda, and few Men have spoken with them.
26 Next came the Noldor, a name of wisdom. CE-EX-62.5{[footnote to the text: The Gnomes they may be called in our tongue, quoth lfwine. (The word that he uses is Witan. More is said of this matter in the Tenth Chapter where the tale speaks of the Edain.)]} They are the Deep Elves, and the friends of Aul. Their lord was Finw, wisest of all the children of the world. His kindred are renowned in song, for they fought and laboured long and grievously in the northern lands of old. CE-EX-63 <LQ; Ch. 3; Note to 19 Dark is their hue and grey are their eyes>.
27 The greatest host came last, The Sea-elves therefore they became in Valinor, the {Soloneldi [> }Falmari{]}, for they made music beside the breaking waves. Two lords they had, for their numbers were very great: Elw Singollo, which signifies Greymantle, and Olw his brother. The hair of Olw was long and white, and his eyes were blue; but the hair of Elw was grey as silver, and his eyes were as stars; he was the tallest of all the Elven-folk.
29 These are the chief peoples of the Eldali, These the Kalaquendi CE-EX-66 called {the Alamanyar [> Umanyar], since they came never to the Land of Aman and the Blessed Realm. But the Alamanyar [> Umanyar] and the Avari alike they name} the Moriquendi, Elves of the Darkness, for they never beheld the light before the Sun and Moon. CE-EX-68{The Alamanyar [> Umanyar] were into Beleriand ere the rising of the Moon.} CE-EX-67<Q&E In the period of Exile the Noldor modified their use of these terms, which was offensive to the Sindar. was represented by the new terms Amanyar 'those of Aman', and Uamanyar or Umanyar 'those not of Aman', beside the longer forms Amaneldi and Umaneldi.>
CE-EX-69<AAm And they began their long journey turned back and are forgotten.
{ 1115.
}59 Long and slow was the March until he returned to guide them.
60 And it came to pass that CE-SL-21{after ten Years of journeying in this manner (which is to say in such a time as we now should reckon well nigh a century of our years)} the Eldar passed through a forest, and came to a great river, wider and broader than any that they yet had seen, and beyond it were mountains whose sharp horns seemed to pierce the realm of the stars.
61 This river, it is said, Teleri looked upon the shadowy heights and were afraid.
62 Then one arose in the host of Olw, which was ever hindmost on the march, and his name was CE-EX-70{Nano}[Lenwe] (or {Dn}[Denweg] in the tongue of his own people). And he forsook the westward march, and led away a numerous folk, and they went south down the River, and passed out of the knowledge of the Eldar until long years were over. These were the Nandor.>
30 Others there were also of the Teleri that remained in Middle-earth. These were the Elves of Beleriand in the west of the Northern lands. They came from the host of Elw the Grey. He was lost in the woods and many of his folk sought him long in vain; and thus when their kindred departed over Sea they were left behind and went not into the West. Therefore they are called the Sindar, the Grey Elves, but themselves they named {Eglath}[ Egladrim], the Forsaken. CE-EX-75 <Q&E Less commonly the form Sindel, pl. Sindeldi, is also met in Exilic Quenya.> Elw after became their king, mightiest of all the {Alamanyar [correction to }Umanyar{ missed]}. He it was who was called Thingol in the language of Doriath. CE-EX-61 <Q&E [i]
The Clan-names,
with notes on other names for divisions of the Eldar.

CE-EX-59 <Q&E There {also }existed two old compounds containing *kwendi:
*kala-kwendi and *mori-kwendi, the Light-folk and the Dark- folk. But already before the final separation *mori-kwendi may have referred to the glooms and the clouds dimming CE-EX-60 {the sun and }the stars during the War of the Valar and Melkor, so that the term from the beginning had a tinge of scorn, implying that such folk were not averse to the shadows of Melkor upon Middle-earth.
The lineal descendants and had also acquired far greater knowledge and powers by their association with the Valar and Maiar.>
CE-EX-60.3 <Q&E Associated with these compounds were the two old words Calben (Celbin) and Morben (Moerbin). CE-EX-60.4{On the formal relation of these to Quenya Kalaquendi and Moriquendi see p. 362.} They had no reference to Elves, may have been justified CE-EX-60.5{; but the only case recorded in the histories is that of Maeglin, For that Turin smote him in the king's hall}.
This resentment on the part of the Avari is illustrated by the history of {PQ}[Primitive Quendian] *kwendi. as compared with the Avari CE-EX-60.6{(see p. 381)}. The Avarin forms cited by the Loremasters were: Men (Easterlings) that appeared before the Battle of the Nirnaeth. CE-EX-60.7[Reference to the last footnote] If in Sindarin an Avar, as distinct from other kinds of Morben, was intended, he was called Mornedhel.>
In Quenya form the names of the three great Clans were Vanyar, {oldor}Noldor, and Lindar. The oldest of these names was Lindar, which certainly goes back to days before the Separation. The other two probably arose in the same period, if somewhat later: their original forms may thus be given in {PQ}[Primitive Quendian] as *wanjā, *golodō, and lindā /glindā.[footnote: For the late {PQ}[Primitive Quendian] gl- as an initial variation of l- see General Phonology. Though this Clan-name has *glind- in Sindarin, the g- does not appear in Amanya Telerin, nor in Nandorin, so that in this case it may be an addition in Sindarin, which favoured and much increased initial groups of this kind.]
According to the legend, preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar, the Three Clans were in the beginning derived from the three Elf-fathers: Imin, Tata, and Enel (sc. One, Two, Three), and those whom each chose to join his following. So they had at first simply the names Minyar 'Firsts', Tatyar 'Seconds', and Nelyar 'Thirds'. These numbered, out of the original 144 Elves that first awoke, 14, 56, and 74; and these proportions were approximately maintained until the Separation.
It is said that of the small clan of the Minyar none became Avari. The Tatyar were evenly divided. The Nelyar were most reluctant to leave their lakeside homes; but they were very cohesive, and very conscious of the separate unity of their Clan (as they continued to be), so that when it became clear that their chieftains Elw and Olw were resolved to depart and would have a large following, many of those among them who had at first joined the Avari went over to the Eldar rather than be separated from their kin. The oldor indeed asserted that most of the 'Teleri' were at heart Avari, and that only the Eglain really regretted being left in Beleriand.
According to the oldorin historians the proportions, out of 144, that when the March began became Avari or Eldar were approximately so:
Minyar 14: Avari 0 Eldar 14
Tatyar 56: Avari 28 Eldar 28
Nelyar 74: Avari 28 Eldar 46 > Amanyar Teleri 20;
Sinda and Nandor 26
In the result the Noldor were the largest clan of Elves in Aman; while the Elves that remained in Middle-earth (the Moriquendi in the Quenya of Aman) outnumbered the Amanyar in the proportion of 82 to 62.
How far the descriptive Clan-names, *wanjā, *golodō, and *lindā were preserved whom they accused of arrogance.
This ill-feeling descended that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together.> CE-EX-62 <Q&E
Vanyar
This name was probably given to the First Clan by the Noldor. They accepted it, but continued to call themselves most often by their old numerical name Minyar (since the whole of this clan had joined the Eldar and reached Aman). Indis of the Vanyar.
Vanyar thus comes Vna wife of Orom.
Since the Lindar where the First Clan (in lore and history only) were called Miniel, pl. Mnil.> CE-EX-64 <Q&E
oldor
This name was probably older than Vanyar, and may have been made before the March. clan throughout their later history.
The name meant 'the Wise', for technical skills.
The variant forms of the name: {Q}[Quenya] oldo, {T}[Telerin] Goldo, {S}[Sindarin] Golodh (Ngolodh), indicate a {PQ}[Primitive Quendian] original *golodō. This is a derivative of the stem *NGOL 'knowledge, wisdom, lore'. This is seen in {Q}[Quenya] le 'long study (of any subject)', igole 'lore', ingolmo 'loremaster'. In {T}[Telerin] gle, engole had the same senses as in {Q}[Quenya] but were used most often of the special 'lore' possessed by the oldor. In {S}[Sindarin] the word gl (equivalent of {Q}[Quenya] le) had less laudatory associations, being used mostly of secret knowledge, especially such as possessed by artificers who made wonderful things; and the word became further darkened by its frequent use in the compound morgul 'black arts', applied to the delusory or perilous arts and knowledge derived from {Morgoth}[Melkor].
Those indeed among the Sindar who were unfriendly to the oldor attributed their supremacy in the arts and lore to their learning from Melkor{-Morgoth}. This was a falsehood, coming itself ultimately from {Morgoth}[Melkor]; though it was not without any foundation (as the lies of {Morgoth}[Melkor] seldom were). But the great gifts of the oldor did not come from the teaching of Melkor. Fanor the greatest of them all never had any dealings with Melkor in Aman, and was his greatest foe.> CE-EX-65 <Q&E
Lindar (Teleri)
These were, as has been seen, much the largest of the ancient clans. The name, those that moved into the West became enamoured of the Sea. [footnote: For this reason the most frequently used of the 'titles' or secondary names of the Lindar was Nendili 'Water-lovers'.]
In Quenya, cf. telma, which was often applied to the last item in a structure, such as a coping-stone, or a topmost pinnacle.]> CE-EX-71 <Q&E
Nandor
This name must have been made at the time, in the latter days of the March, when certain groups of the Teleri gave up the March; and it was especially applied to the large following of Lenwe, [footnote: Lenwe is the form in which his name was remembered in oldorin histories. His name was probably *Denwego, Nandorin Denweg. His son was the Nandorin chieftain Denethor. These names probably meant 'lithe-and-active' and 'lithe-and-lank', from *dene- 'thin and strong, pliant, lithe', and *thara- 'tall (or long) and slender'.] who refused to cross the Hithaeglir.
The name was often interpreted as 'Those who go back'; but in fact none of the Nandor appear to have returned, Some of these finally entered Beleriand, CE-EX-72{not} long before the return of {Morgoth}[Melkor]. These were under the leadership of Denethor, son of DenwegCE-EX-72.2{[footnote: see Note 17]}. The old name Nandor was however only remembered by the oldorin historians in Aman; or by confusion with the name of their leader Denwaith.
This name they at first applied to the Nandor made the eastern borders of the country of Lindon.
These names were however and took as little part in the strife with {Morgoth}[Melkor] as they could. This name, {S}[Sindarin] Laegel, pl. Laegil, class-plural Laegrim or Laegel(d)rim, was given both because of the greenness of the land of Lindon, and because the Laegrim clothed themselves in green as an aid to secrecy. This term the oldor translated into Quenya Laiquendi; but it was not much used.> CE-EX-76 <Q&E
Sindar
}CE-EX-76.1 <Q&E The Sindar had no general name for themselves as distinct from other varieties of Elf, until other kinds entered Beleriand. The descendant of the old clan name *Lindai ({Q}[Quenya] Lindar) had fallen out of normal use, being no longer needed in a situation were all the Edhil were of the same kind, and people were more aware of the growing differences in speech and other matters between those sections of the Elves that lived in widely sundered parts of a large and mostly pathless land. They were thus in ordinary speech all Edhil, but some belonged to one region and some to another: they were Falathrim from the sea-board of West Beleriand, or Iathrim from Doriath (the land of the Fence, or iath), or Mithrim who had gone north from Beleriand and inhabited the regions about the great lake that afterwards bore their name.{[Reference to the last footnote]}
CE-EX-76.12 <Q&E Sindar{
}Less commonly the form Sindel, pl. Sindeldi, is also met in Exilic Quenya. This was the name given by the Exiled oldor [footnote: Lake Mithrim, meaning originally 'Lake of the Mithrim'. Mithrim was a name given to them by the southern-dwellers, because of the cooler climate and greyer skies, and the mists of the North. It was probably because the Noldor first came into contact with this northerly branch that they gave in Quenya the name Sindar or Sindeldi 'Grey-elves' to all the Telerin inhabitants of the Westlands who spoke the Sindarin language.
Though this name was also later held to refer to Elw's name Thingol (Sindikollo) 'Grey-cloak', since he was acknowledged as high-king of all the land and its peoples. It is said also that the folk of the North were clad much in grey, especially after the return of {Morgoth}[Melkor] when secrecy became needed; and the Mithrim had an art of weaving a grey cloth that made its wearers almost invisible in shadowy places or in a stony land.
This art was later used even in the southern lands as the dangers of the War increased.] to the second largest of the divisions of the Eldar. [footnote: {See above, p. 381. }The proportion, per 144, of the Eldar remaining in Middle-earth was reckoned at 26, of which about 8 were Nandor.] It was applied to all the Elves of Telerin origin that the oldor found in Beleriand, though it later excluded the Nandor, except those who were the direct subjects of Elw, or had become merged with his people. The name meant 'the Grey', or 'the Grey-elves', and was derived from *THIN, {PQ}[Primitive Quendian] *thindi 'grey, pale or silvery grey', {Q}[Quenya] inde, dialect sinde. [footnote: On the origin of this name see {Note 11}<reference to the footnote above>]
The Loremasters also supposed For which reason the Sindar often called them Lachend, pl. Lechind 'flame-eyed'.>
CE-EX-76.15 <Q&E The old clan-name *Lindai survived in the compound Glinnel, pl. Glinnil, a word only known in historical lore, and the equivalent of Quenya Teleri or Lindar CE-EX-76.2{; see the Notes on the Clan-names below}. All the Sindarin subjects of King Elu-Thingol, as distinguished from the incoming Noldor, were sometimes later called the Eluwaith. Dunedhil 'West-elves' (the reference being to the West of Middle-earth) was a term made to match Dunedain 'West-men' (applied only to the Men of the Three Houses). But with the growing amalgamation, outside Doriath, of the Noldor and Sindar into one people using the Sindarin tongue as their daily speech, this soon became applied to both Noldor and Sindar.
While the Noldor were still distinct, and whenever it was desired to recall their difference of origin, they were usually called Odhil (sg. Odhel). This as has been seen was originally a name for all the Elves that left Beleriand for Aman. These were also called by the Sindar Gwanwen, pl. Gwenwin (or Gwanwel, Gwenwil) 'the departed': cf. {Q}[Quenya] vanwa. This term, which could not suitably be applied to those who had come back, remained the usual Sindarin name for the Elves that remained in Aman.
Odhil thus became specially the name of the Exiled Noldor.
In this sense the form Godhel, pl. Godhil soon replaced the older form. It seems to have been due to the influence of the clan-name Golodh, pl. Goelydh; or rather to a deliberate blending of the two words. The old clan-name had not fallen out of memory (for the Noldor and the Sindar owing to the great friendship of Finw and Elw were closely associated during their sojourn in Beleriand before the Departure) and it had in consequence a genuine Sindarin form (< CE *ngolodo). But the form Golodh seems to have been phonetically unpleasing to the Noldor. The name was, moreover, chiefly used by those who wished to mark the difference between the Noldor and the Sindar, and to ignore the dwelling of the Noldor in Aman which might give them a claim to superiority. CE-EX-76.3{This was especially the case in Doriath, where King Thingol was hostile to the Noldorin chieftains, Feanor and his sons, and Fingolfin, because of their assault upon the Teleri in Aman, the people of his brother Olw. }The Noldor, therefore, when using Sindarin, never applied this name (Golodh) to themselves, and it fell out of use among those friendly to them. CE-EX-76.4 {4. }
Eglan, pl. Eglain, Egladrim
This name, 'the Forsaken', was, as has been said, given by the Sindar to themselves. But it was not in Beleriand a name for all the Elves who remained there, as were the related names, Hekeldi, Hecelloi, in Aman. It applied only to those who wished to depart, and waited long in vain for the return of Ulmo, taking up their abode on or near the coasts. There they became skilled in the building and management of ships. Crdan was their lord.
Crdans folk were mad up both of numbers of the following of Olw, who straying or lingering came to the shores too late, and also of many of the following of Elw, who abandoned the search for him and did not wish to be separated forever from their kin and friends. This folk remained in the desire of Aman for long years, and they were among the most friendly to the Exiles.
They continued to call themselves the Eglain, and the regions where they dwelt Eglamar and Eglador. The later name fell out of general use. It had originally been applied to all western Beleriand between Mount Taras and the Bay of Balar, its eastern boundary being roughly along the River Narog. Eglamar, however, remained the name of the Home of the Eglain: the sea-board from Cape Andras to the headland of Bar-in-Mŷl (Home of the Gulls), which included the ship-havens of Crdan at Brithombar and at the head of the firth of Eglarest.
The Eglain became a people somewhat apart from the inland Elves, and at the time of the coming of the Exiles their language was in many ways different.[footnote: The language of Mithrim was also a marked dialect; but none of the dialects of Sindarin differed widely enough to interfere with intercourse. Their divergences were no greater than those that had arisen between the Quenya as spoken by the Vanyar, and as spoken by the Noldor at the time of the Exile.] But they acknowledged the high-kingship of Thingol, and Crdan never took the title of king.>[Footnote: Other names in song and tale are given to these peoples. The Vanyar are the Blessed Elves, and the Spear-elves, the Elves of the Air, the friends of the {Gods}[Valar], the Holy Elves and the Immortal, and the Children of Ingw; they are the Fair Folk and the White.
The Noldor are the Wise, and the Golden, the Valiant, the Sword-elves, the Elves of the Earth, the Foes of Melkor, the Skilled of Hand, the Jewel-wrights, the Companions of Men, the Followers of Finw.
The Teleri are the Foam-riders, the Singers of the Shore, the Free, and the Swift, and the Arrow-elves; they are the Elves of the Sea, the Ship-wrights, the Swanherds, the Gatherers of Pearl, the Blue Elves, the people of Olw. The Nandor are CE-EX-77{the Host of Dn, }the Wood-elves, the Wanderers, the Axe-elves, the Green Elves and the Brown, the Hidden People; and those that came at last to Ossiriand are the Elves of the Seven Rivers, the Singers Unseen, the Kingless, the Weaponless, and the Lost Folk, for they are now no more. The Sindar are the Lemberi, the Lingerers; they are the Friends of Oss, the Elves of the Twilight, the Silvern, the Enchanters, the Wards of Melian, the Kindred of Luthien, the people of Elw. Quoth Pengolod.]>
Changes in the arangement introduced by me: CE-EX-68: This completely skipped passage was displaced in the curse of our editing the text back ward and forward. I reinstalled it at its proper place, so for the final text this has no impact, it is just for the documentation of how our text is constructed.

CE-EX-76.1 to CE-EX-76.2: In this part ArcusCalion wanted to replace the footnote about the Mithrim alone. But for me, shifting the footnote from one reference to another doesnt seem to be the right way. Therefore I shifted the arrangement the inserted paragraphs.

Last but not least to the comments that ArcusCalion provided with the draft:
CE-EX-58.4: ArcusCalion suggested to remove this footnote completely, and I agree to this.

CE-EX-62.5 Footnote to 26: ArcusCalion suggested hesitatingly to remove this footnote completely. I thought first we should keep this one reference to the Gnomes, since the name might be used in later writings. But it is neither in the Hobbit nor in LotR. So I agree to remove the complete footnote.

CE-SL-21: ArcusCalion asked why this was deleted. The passage gives a relation between the Valinorean years and the Years of the Sun. The project discussed about this and came to the conclusion that we will not tackle this problem down. This means we simply avoid specifying such a relation. May be I have overdone it here by the complete deletion. We could take:
Quote:
60 And it came to pass that after CE-SL-21{ten}[long] Years of journeying in this manner {(which is to say in such a time as we now should reckon well nigh a century of our years) }the Eldar passed through a forest, ...
CE-EX-70: ArcusCalion worte:
Quote:
Why not replace the name?
In my arrangement the names in the different tongues followed immediately after this passage. Therefore I removed it simply. In this ordering a replacement is better.

CE-EX-60.6: ArcusCalion wanted to remove this Footnote. But I think that is unnecessary. Once we are talking about real footnotes this just a repeated number, so that he footnote has two references.
Quote:
In Quenya form the names of the three great Clans were Vanyar, oldor , and Lindar.
To oldor in this sentence ArcusCalion wrote:
Quote:
Noldor, to be consistent
Okay, in general Noldor it should be. But in all these linguistic stuff the tilde might be use in same cases.
ArcusCalion suggested to expand PQ as Primitive Quendian. I agree to this and think we as well should expand Q to Quenya and S to Sindarin. I have added this to the general changes.

ArcusCalion wanted to remove the following footnote as too complex:
Quote:
[footnote: For the late {PQ}[Primitive Quendian] gl- as an initial variation of l- see General Phonology. Though this Clan-name has *glind- in Sindarin, the g- does not appear in Amanya Telerin, nor in Nandorin, so that in this case it may be an addition in Sindarin, which favoured and much increased initial groups of this kind.]
I dont agree to this. It is in a footnote already. Readers not interested in such things will easily go over it.

Quote:
According to the legend, preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar, ...
To this phrase ArcusCalion commented:
Quote:
as has been told
I dont know if that was meant as an proposed addition to the text or as an argument for removal. Either way I am inclined to let the text be as it is. Yes we have told that legend just a few pages above, but that makes the back reference not useless or wrong.

Quote:
... The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar, who acknowledged their kinship with the Exiles, though there is no record of their using the name Noldo in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Noldor, and jealous of their more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance. ...
To this phrase ArcusCalion commented:
Quote:
breaks the linear story telling
That is true, but it is true for many points in this linguistic stuff. Nonetehless they transport many important points which I would not loss. And we have in Sil77 as well such examples. So I would not change the text for this.

Quote:
Vanyar thus comes from an adjectival derivative *wanja from the stem *WAN. Its primary sense seems to have beenkn very similar to English (modern) use of 'fair with reference to hair and complexion; though its actual development was the reverse of the English: it meant 'pale, light-colored, not brown or dark', and its implication of beauty was secondary. In English the meaning beautiful is primary. From the same stem was derived the name given in Quenya to the Vali Vna wife of Orom.
To this phrase ArcusCalion commented:
Quote:
delete
But I dont see why, so please explain.

Quote:
is already referred to in the legend of 'The Awakening of the Quendi, which says of the Nelyar that 'they sang before they could speak with words.
To this phrase ArcusCalion commented:
Quote:
Already gave the tale
I dont know if that was meant as an proposed addition to the text or as an argument for removal. Either way I am inclined to let the text be as it is. Yes we have told that legend just a few pages above, but that makes the back reference not useless or wrong.

The last comment of ArcusCalion was about the shift of the footnote, on which I have already reacted above.

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Old 08-30-2017, 03:20 PM   #26
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CE-EX-30: I see now your point. I had forgotten about the Ulmo description in the Later Tuor. Having read that, I see that you are right.

CE-EX-39: agreed to all

CE-EX-45: To me it sounds fine, but I do not object if you think the change too much.

CE-EX-56: agreed

For this next section I apologize, I had not removed the comments from before I rearranged the text. Therefore many of my comments no longer apply. This is true of all of these:

Quote:
ArcusCalion wanted to remove the following footnote as too complex:
Quote:
[footnote: For the late {PQ}[Primitive Quendian] gl- as an initial variation of l- see General Phonology. Though this Clan-name has *glind- in Sindarin, the g- does not appear in Amanya Telerin, nor in Nandorin, so that in this case it may be an addition in Sindarin, which favoured and much increased initial groups of this kind.]
I dont agree to this. It is in a footnote already. Readers not interested in such things will easily go over it.

Quote:
According to the legend, preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar, ...
To this phrase ArcusCalion commented:
Quote:
as has been told
I dont know if that was meant as an proposed addition to the text or as an argument for removal. Either way I am inclined to let the text be as it is. Yes we have told that legend just a few pages above, but that makes the back reference not useless or wrong.

Quote:
... The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar, who acknowledged their kinship with the Exiles, though there is no record of their using the name Noldo in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Noldor, and jealous of their more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance. ...
To this phrase ArcusCalion commented:
Quote:
breaks the linear story telling
That is true, but it is true for many points in this linguistic stuff. Nonetehless they transport many important points which I would not loss. And we have in Sil77 as well such examples. So I would not change the text for this.

Quote:
Vanyar thus comes from an adjectival derivative *wanja from the stem *WAN. Its primary sense seems to have beenkn very similar to English (modern) use of 'fair with reference to hair and complexion; though its actual development was the reverse of the English: it meant 'pale, light-colored, not brown or dark', and its implication of beauty was secondary. In English the meaning beautiful is primary. From the same stem was derived the name given in Quenya to the Vali Vna wife of Orom.
To this phrase ArcusCalion commented:
Quote:
delete
But I dont see why, so please explain.

Quote:
is already referred to in the legend of 'The Awakening of the Quendi, which says of the Nelyar that 'they sang before they could speak with words.
To this phrase ArcusCalion commented:
Quote:
Already gave the tale
I dont know if that was meant as an proposed addition to the text or as an argument for removal. Either way I am inclined to let the text be as it is. Yes we have told that legend just a few pages above, but that makes the back reference not useless or wrong.

The last comment of ArcusCalion was about the shift of the footnote, on which I have already reacted above.
All of your objections are of course true, and my comments here stemmed from when the linguistic material was intruding into the narrative, which I found very jarring. Having separated the two, these comments are no longer applicable.

That being said, for the rest of your changes to this section I agree. I am curious what the reasoning was for abandoning the relation of the Years of the Trees to the Years of the Sun? I was not aware that the timeline changed.
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Old 08-30-2017, 03:42 PM   #27
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Then main argument was the passage in the Appendices of LotR describing the elvish Yen as 144 years of the sun. And some were in HoME we also have a discussion about the time for the journey of the Noldor from Eldamar to the the North. In that Tolkien made massiv changes that casts some doubt on the relation of 1 to 9.xyz given earlier.

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Old 08-30-2017, 03:53 PM   #28
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aaaah oki gotcha
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Old 09-08-2017, 06:29 PM   #29
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Silmaril Addition

I found a brief passage in Quendi and the Eldar: A Note on the Language of the Valar that belongs in this section. I have placed it at the very end of the last paragraph of the Cuivienyarna section.

Quote:
44 Thus it was that when Nahar neighed and Orom indeed came among them, some of the Quendi hid themselves, and some fled and were lost. But those that had the courage to stay perceived that the Great Rider was noble and fair and no shape out of the Darkness; for the light of Aman was in his face, and all the noblest of the Quendi were drawn towards it. CE-EX-05.2 <Q&E {when}When Orom appeared among them, and at length some dared to approach him, they asked him his name, and he answered: Orom. Then they asked him what that signified, and again he answered: Orom. To me only is it given; for I am Orom. Yet the titles that he bore were many and glorious; but he withheld them at that time, that the Quendi should not be afraid.
{Nahar, the name of Orom’s horse. ‘}Otherwise it was{,’ says Pengolodh, ‘} with the steed upon which the Lord Orom rode. When the Quendi asked his name, and if it bore any meaning, Orom answered: ‘Nahar, and he is called from the sound of his voice, when he is eager to run.’>
Just some cool dialogue and name meanings.
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Old 09-09-2017, 04:49 PM   #30
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Even nicer find! Agreed to take it.

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Old 10-08-2017, 09:45 PM   #31
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I have looked through the latest draft sent to me by Arcus and read through the comments in this thread. You guys have already come to a consensus on this, but I think the section on the weaponry of the Valar and their riding to war is too awesome not to include. I also agree with Findegil that in telling the story of the war to the Elves, the Valar would frame it in a way that Elves could understand. In Letters #212: "But the 'habitual' shapes of the Valar, when visible or clothed, were anthropomorphic, because of their intense concern with Elves and Men." A few comments:

1.
Quote:
And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world; and his realm spread now ever southward over the Middle-earth.
Small spelling mistake: "divers" should be "diverse".

2.
Quote:
But the {Orks} Orcs, mockeries and perversions of the Children of Eru, did not appear until after the Awakening of the Elves.> {His realm spread now ever southward over the Middle-earth.} CE-EX-02 <AAm But {these}[the Balrogs] came not yet from the gates of Utumno, because of the watchfulness of Orom.
Using "But" to start two sentences in a row is awkward. I propose "And" to start the second sentence.

3.
Quote:
Then Varda took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn.
According to this passage, Varda makes "new stars". So stars already exist? Earlier we use the idea that Eru himself gives Varda the light with which to make the stars, but here we say she makes stars from the vats of Telperion. Is it just the new stars which are made from Telperion?

4.
Quote:
But three Elves awoke first of all, and they were elf-men, for elf-men are more strong in body and far more eager and adventurous in strange places.
Is this saying that elf-men are more strong in body compared to elf-women? This seems to directly contradict "Laws and Customs": "In all such things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal". "Quendi and Eldar" was written between 1959-1960 but looking through Morgoth's Ring I couldn't find a definite time for when "Laws and Customs" was written so I don't know which was more recent.

5.
Quote:
It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]: he {has}had become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering - even 'keeping the status quo'
If Tolkien himself said what is in the bold section, then I don't propose we remove it, but I would like to discuss it. This seems out of character for Manwe. In the previous section it talks about how Melkor has been greatly weakened as a person and couldn't shield himself. But here Manwe is afraid of him? And he desired to control Melkor? That seems completely out of character. It seems more likely (from my understanding of the character) that Manwe truly believed the repentance of Melkor (or that he desperately wants to believe in the repentance of Melkor).

6.
Quote:
<AAm But the kindreds of Morw and Nurw were unwilling and refused the summons, preferring the starlight and the wide spaces of the Earth to the rumor of the Trees.
Do we introduce Morwe and Nurwe before this point?

Overall, this is an excellent chapter. The number of different sources you guys culled from to create a coherent narrative is really impressive.
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:23 PM   #32
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1. This is a British spelling that Tolkien uses frequently in his works. In my draft I usually change them to American spelling (for myself).

2. This does indeed sound better, I will take that suggestion up into my draft.

3. In the chapter "Of the Beginning of Time" Varda makes the older stars before the Valar arrive in Arda. Thus, there are older and newer stars, the first of which she made with the light of Eru.

4. This is true, I am also unsure of the dating. I would assume that they are contemporary, and even if not, it seems more like an instance of Tolkien misremembering something he already wrote, or simply forgetting it. However, in Laws and Customs, he does give general trends in the behavior of the nerei and the nissi that say that the men are more adventerous and practice hunting more often, while the women are more concerned with lore and the home etc, while providing the qualifier that either can do whatever they want equally well. This may be an instance of Tolkien simply using a generality without providing a qualkifier, in which case it would be fine, in my opinion, to simply leave it.

5. Tolkien was trying to say that Melkor was faaar more powerful than any of the individual Valar, so that even in defeat, Manwe was wary of him. In addition, as strange as it may seem in light of Manwe's character, these are Tolkien's words, and we cannot change them simply because we do not agree with them.

6. They have not, but they have no real introduction, as Tolkien gave them none. ANy that we give them would be fabrication on our part.
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:22 PM   #33
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1. British spelling rules in Tolkiens texts.

2. Agreed.

3. In all versions Varda made new starts, while older already existed. The light given to Varda by Eru was not used for the making of starts in general, but for the sun in particular.

4. I dont see how their can be a direct contradiction with such a quoloquial sentence as that from Quendi and Eldar! Otherwise I would say we find contradictions to it in that Essay itself easily.

5. We do normaly not add to our text and specially not without clear indication. Yes, the bolt text is in the original source text as written by JRR Tolkien.
The sence with Melkor and Manwe facing each other after so long a time does rather support that fear than deny it. Yes Melkor is shrunken so that he could no longer dount Manwe with his eyes, but none the less does it need all the Valar in assembly to ofer come him and his agents. And what Manwe feared is not told. I dont think he feared for himself or his safety, he feared for the demage that Melkor cold work on Ea.
Manwe was Iluvatars chief instrument against Melkor in the second thema. Therefore I think it was his concern to control Melkor. That said I do nonetheless agree to your opinion that Manwe desperately wants to believe in the repentance of Melkor.

6. No we do not. But Morwe and Nurwe have in all HoMe only this one single scene. So it is either taken them up here, or skipping them for good.

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Old 10-11-2017, 09:51 AM   #34
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Responding to both Findegil and Arcus:

1. OK, I was unaware of this spelling.

3. That's what I assumed, I just wanted to be clear.

4. There are further statements in "Laws and Customs" which I think make it far from collloquial, although it is further confused later in the essay:

"There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ner can think or do, or others which only a nis is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar)."

This implies they are capable of doing exactly the same thing, implying no physical differences. For example, olympic track records between men and women are different due to physical differences; I've always imagined this wouldn't be the case between elvish men and women. But then Tolkien states later:

"Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals."

Here Tolkien state "less difference" and not "no difference", making it more ambiguous. I guess this is just a personal idea of mine: I've always liked the idea that there are no physical differences between elven men and women, and that patriarchal ideas were developed among the elves due to cultural exchanges with humans. However, I don't really have any proof of this. Since Tolkien himself seems to be contradictory w.r.t. whether nissi and neri are identical or just less different when compared to humans, I think it makes sense to just keep the text as is.

5. Yes, I agree with not changing the text simply because we do not agree with it. I just wanted to point it out as I thought it was interesting.

Quote:
And what Manwe feared is not told. I dont think he feared for himself or his safety, he feared for the demage that Melkor cold work on Ea.
This is an excellent point which I would agree with.

6. Since this is the only mention of Morwe and Nurwe I propose we keep it as is. Do we plan on making genealogical tables for Volume III? These should be very interesting.

This is more of a general question: are we only including texts which we consider to be "historically accurate"? Tolkien describes the story of Imin, Tata and Enel as "an Elvish fairytale or child's tale" and it seems to partly serve the purpose of teaching children how to count. This is an example where I think the lack of a frame actually hurts the story. I would have the teller of this story explicitly state that this is a child's tale to teach children how to count, and this explains why Imin, Tata and Enel disappear from the rest of the history. I'm not suggesting we add back in a frame, I think it was probably the right decision overall, but it makes some of the texts difficult to organize.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:51 AM   #35
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Genealogical tables: ArcusCalion has included them in his draft for the structure of Volume III. But what we are doing is editing, not creating. We can include what Tolkien provided, corrected by our editing to what we find as canonical and may be with an addition here and there that is deemed canonical. But that does for sure not provide a full table as probably desired by many of us.

On your general question: Yes and no. We included the story of the awakening of the Elves with Imin, Tata and Enel. And yes a frame story would have been nice in this case for the exact reason you mentioned. But on the one hand we decised once against any frame story and on the other we would anyhow not have invented such frame story in a fan-fictional way. In the end the argument was that Imin, Tata and Enel could have send younger members of their house as ambassadors to Valinor (naturaly so as that journey could be called a great risk) and steped probably back when Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe came back enlighted and argued successfully for the march.
Back to your original question I think that would become more important if we would have to decised on such things as The Hort or other even more fantastic poems from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. But luckly Tolkien published these himself. But as example we included the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl because we agreed that the corresponding poem could be considered as a valid ingredient. (So looking in to my drafts of the Second Age material, I see that I did not includ it so fare. Maybe I will correct this before ever I post them.)

Respectfully
Findegil
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:36 PM   #36
gandalf85
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I was actually thinking of some of the more fantastical elements of the Adventures of Tom Bombadil when bringing up that question. I agree with the conclusion you guys came to: It is entirely within reason that Imin, Tata and Enel sent younger ambassadors. We don't have to bend over backwards for that explanation. Anything that seems like a "valid ingredient" as you put it should be included.
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