Celebrimbor

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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I thought of this when I read Saulotus's question in the quiz room about a child born out of wedlock. In the Silmarillion, it is stated that none of Feanor's sons ever took a wife, yet Celebrimbor is said to be the son of Curufin. Is this another out of wedlock birth? Is this elaborated upon in one of the HOME series (since I haven't read these)? Or did I just miss something?

-red

"I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will."</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Celebrimbor

Celebrimbor's parentage is debated in either UT or Peoples of Middle Earth. JRRT apparently began leaning away from Feanorean ancestry for him. However, this conflicts with what was published in LoTR. The issue is not resolved. There are some intriguing outlines in either UT or Peoples regarding Celebrimbor and his relationship to Galadriel. In one, it is said that he was from Gondolin. I don't recall anything about his mother.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Celebrimbor

This isn't the answer to the trivia question, but the origin of Celebrimbor is somewhat confusing.

As far as I can tell:

Tolkien asserted that some of the Sons of Feanor were wedded.
Maglor, Caranthir, and Curufin were married.

This statement was done to give credence to the idea of Celebrimbor as a descendant of Feanor.

However; shortly afterward Tolkien changed the origin to that of Teler descent.

Tolkien questioned the origin as published, and even underlined the passage with a query as to the possibility of this parentage.

He then gives a curious statement:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien HISTORY Vol. 12
'This was a Sindarized form of Telerin Telperimpar (Quenya Tyelpinquar). It was a frequent name among the Teleri, who in addition to navigation and ship-building were also renowned as silver-smiths.'<hr></blockquote>

In this same section he asserts that Celebrimbor was a Teler. The interesting thing is that Celebrimbor seems to have been a common Epesse of the Teler. Of what significance this has to Celebrimbor of Feanorian descent and Celebrimbor of Tererin descent was not resolved. It may be that like Gil-Galad; it simply became a name under which he was well known, but not a given name.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Celebrimbor

In the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT, the tale of the Elessar (the green stone given by Arwen to Aragorn) is told briefly, with three different versions. The third is that Celebrimbor made the Elessar in Gondolin. In another version, another elf made it in Gondolin, it was given to Idril who gave it to Earendil. Olorin brought it back from the West and gave it to Galadriel, who gave it to Clebrian, who gave it to Arwen. In the third version, Celebrimbor makes a second Elessar in Eregion for Galadriel.

I'm not saying that this establishes Celebrimbor was from Gondolin and not of Feanorean descent.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 10/24/00 8:27:01 am

[Arvedui]

With all the notes and such that are put into the UT and HoME books, I would still go with Celebrimbor being of Feanorean descent since that is what is in LoTR, which is what J.R.R. published. So many alternate versions in an authors notes....

[Voralphion]

I tend to go with the Feanorian descent of Celebrimbor mainly due to the fact of his great skills in creating things. The noldor were greater smiths than the Teleri, and since it is said that Celebrimbor was one of the greatest smiths, perhaps second only to Feanor, (I'm sure I read this somewhere), to me this points to a noldorian ancestry.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Saulotus

Re: Celebrimbor This isn't the answer to the trivia question, but the origin of Celebrimbor is somewhat confusing.

As far as I can tell: Tolkien asserted that some of the Sons of Feanor were wedded.
Maglor, Caranthir, and Curufin were married.

This statement was done to give credence to the idea of Celebrimbor as a descendant of Feanor.

However; shortly afterward Tolkien changed the origin to that of Teler descent.

Tolkien questioned the origin as published, and even underlined the passage with a query as to the possibility of this parentage.

But this might imply a chronology that isn't necessarily so. As I read the commentary Tolkien did not question the origin of Celebrimbor as published, but questioned, and answered, 'how it could be so' within the context of what he had published. In other words (I read it as), he accepted what he had published, but hadn't yet explained how in any great detail.

He then gives a curious statement: J.R.R. Tolkien HISTORY Vol. 12 'This was a Sindarized form of Telerin Telperimpar (Quenya Tyelpinquar). It was a frequent name among the Teleri, who in addition to navigation and ship-building were also renowned as silver-smiths.'

In this same section he asserts that Celebrimbor was a Teler. The interesting thing is that Celebrimbor seems to have been a common Epesse of the Teler. Of what significance this has to Celebrimbor of Feanorian descent and Celebrimbor of Tererin descent was not resolved. It may be that like Gil-Galad; it simply became a name under which he was well known, but not a given name.

This hails from a linguistic text dated around 1968. There is not only no resolution here but no indication that Tolkien even considered -- or even remembered -- that he had published Celebrimbor as Feanorian.

And that's what CJRT himself brings up here: in his opinion (Christopher Tolkien's opinion) had his father remebered what he had published, he would have felt bound by it.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

In the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT, the tale of the Elessar (the green stone given by Arwen to Aragorn) is told briefly, with three different versions. The third is that Celebrimbor made the Elessar in Gondolin. In another version, another elf made it in Gondolin, it was given to Idril who gave it to Earendil. Olorin brought it back from the West and gave it to Galadriel, who gave it to Clebrian, who gave it to Arwen. In the third version, Celebrimbor makes a second Elessar in Eregion for Galadriel.

I'm not saying that this establishes Celebrimbor was from Gondolin and not of Feanorean descent.

I would go beyond that and say Celebrimbor was not of Feanorean descent when Tolkien originally wrote The Elessar texts. Celebrimbor can simply be a smith of Gondolin here, as the first drafting of The Elessar (and 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' too) seems to precede the idea of Celebrimbor as a Feanorean -- which JRRT only added to the second edition of The Lord of the Rings.

[Galadriel55]

It's very interesting how many different versions of Celebrimbor's descent there are. In The Sil, it says that he's Curufin's son. That would make him Feanorian. But maybe his mother was of Teleri origin? I doubt that his mother could have been from Gondolin, since hardly anyone was allowed to go out.
There's another problem related to Celebrimbor's parentage: if he renounced his father, and thus also Feanor, how come there's Feanor's Star on the West Gate of Moria?

[Mithadan]

The Star of Feanor is his line's heraldic symbol, though I suppose he could have used Finwe's (which Tolkien drew as well) or created his own. Curufin likely had his own devide as well. Perhaps the use of Feanor's device emphasized his "profession" of a jewel-smith, like his grandfather.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It's very interesting how many different versions of Celebrimbor's descent there are. In The Sil, it says that he's Curufin's son. That would make him Feanorian. But maybe his mother was of Teleri origin? I doubt that his mother could have been from Gondolin, since hardly anyone was allowed to go out.

But we really only have one in my opinion, in a sense. The Gondolin detail arguably reflects an earlier but rejected draft idea -- rejected when Celebrimbor became a Feanorean as published in The Lord of the Rings. (Christopher Tolkien reflected this in his choice for the 1977 Silmarillion). The Telerin idea is but a later, unpublished musing that even Christopher Tolkien thinks arose because Tolkien forgot what he had already published.


For all we know, at some point Tolkien remembered and rejected the Telerin idea. He has no real reason to write 'most of this fails' on anything (if he later remembered) -- he did note this on an essay concerning the word ros (an idea which failed because of something already published), but again, when all we have is the 'unpublished' text, it's hard to say...

A) if Tolkien remembered at some point, but the Celebrimbor text was not at hand to correct (or read his own book and 'remembered' but still the text wasn't at hand).

B) if Tolkien remebered and the Celebrimbor text was at hand, but there being no real need to correct it (as the public didn't know about it), he simply didn't write 'most of this fails' or similar.

C) maybe Tolkien never remembered

D) If the simple act of writing might show Tolkien 'intended' to alter Celebrimbor the Feanorean to a Telerin Elf (in some imagined, revised edition of the future). But in any case, IIRC no where in the late 'Telerin version' does JRRT show that he knew he had already published this character as Feanorian, which would go a long way to illustrating that despite realizing what was already in print, he wanted to alter it (and even still, we can never certainly know he really would have altered this, until he did alter this).

Tolkien wrote more than he published

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It's very interesting how many different versions of Celebrimbor's descent there are. In The Sil, it says that he's Curufin's son. That would make him Feanorian. But maybe his mother was of Teleri origin? I doubt that his mother could have been from Gondolin, since hardly anyone was allowed to go out.
There's another problem related to Celebrimbor's parentage: if he renounced his father, and thus also Feanor, how come there's Feanor's Star on the West Gate of Moria?

Celebrimbor might have still respected his grandfather -after all he only renounced his father after the whole Finrod getting killed as a result of their actions thing occurred. I find that far worse then the kinslaying because of the boats. It is possible to dislike your father and still have fond feeling for other family members.