LotR3-RotK-Seq13 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 11-23-2006, 07:56 AM

They're here. - Poltergeist, 1982

Pippin looks out over the city and the battle. Seemingly ants, from this height, both attack and defend. All is dark, and even the multitude of torches give no real light…or hope. Behind him there is movement. The Steward leads a procession, possibly the beginning of a funeral. Denethor’s words about “Thus have I walked,” seem out of context. I can see what PJ intends, but…

And by the by, just how do they keep the body of Faramir from sliding off of that shield-looking thing on which he lies?

As Denethor walks past the Tree and says that there is “no hope for Men,” we see in the foreground one single white bloom. Maybe all is not lost. Pippin follows the Steward down the Rath Dínen, the Silent Street, to the tombs of the Kings. Denethor, looking out on his city, wonders why anyone even tries to escape the tide of death that is overtaking them, as sooner or later, all will die, he thinks. Note that he has time to choose the manner of his death while those below sell themselves so that he has said time. We see in a long shot that Pippin still follows behind, and I assume that, as the hobbit walks in a hunched manner, that he is being stealthy, as so cannot be seen.

We enter one of the tombs (seeing former Kings and Stewards on the sides) and learn what Denethor intends for he and his remaining son. It’s to be a barbecue, and royalty is back on the menu.

Back at the Gate, Grond punches a hole through on the third try. Gandalf pumps up the troops, letting everyone know that, whether Battle Troll or Fuller Brush salesman, the soldiers on Gondor are to stand their ground. Thanks for the advice, oh wise one. Three Battle Trolls (specifically at the request of PJ) enter as the Gate is destroyed. Gandalf looks frightened as these huge beasts make their entrance, and after a pause he gives them a volley. This doesn't seem to slow them, and shortly after this, about a thousand assorted orcs enter through the Gate, which, previously, no enemy has passed. Gandalf and Shadowfax manage to take out one troll, but this is a drop in the bucket.

What I can never figure is why the Gate wasn't plugged with so many enemy dead that entering Minas Tirith would have been slow work? Anyway...

The Gate is open.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 11-23-2006, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

And by the by, just how do they keep the body of Faramir from sliding off of that shield-looking thing on which he lies?

Toothpicks.

***Mister Underhill*** · 11-23-2006, 12:38 PM

I'm thinking double-stick tape.

Nogrod · 11-23-2006, 01:51 PM

There is something in this affair of Denethor's pyre and indeed most of all concerning Denethor that I think PJ kind of oversimplifies and caricatures.

When I read the book, I see both Boromir and his father as remnants of something like the age of classical virtues and human courage disenchanted from magic or unawaited kicks of luck - not to mention any benevolent powers above the understanding of men. Like Romans, in a sense. Wanting to be buried "as the heathen kings of old" just affirms this interpretation.

In the movie Boromir is taken by the lust of power and the lure of force (aided by the Ring, surely), but Denethor is just a wicked, unjust and selfish steward going mad. In the book his downfall was furthered by the "knowledge" he had from the Palantir, but here we see little of it. So just a madman?

Somehow in the book there is one kind of courage and nobleness in their behaviour, but in the movies they, at least Denethor, seem to be just examples of wrongly-thinking losers.

Essex · 12-11-2006, 10:08 AM

You realise just how much PJ loves Middle-earth when you see Rath Dinen. The quality of the workmanship in the tombs is just breathtaking. To put all that effort in to a few minutes of screen time shows the love and care PJ has for this material. Yes, he has his own ideas on what constitues an adaption of book form to movie form and we can all agree and disagree on how well he has done this, but the level of detail and craftmenship on these films cannot be denied, surely....

PS I agree somewhat about Denethor's portrayal not being correct. If we could have at least seen the palntir, esp. in the EE. but alas, no. I still view the movie as Denethor DOES have the palantir and is driven mad by it, it's just that we don't see it.....

But I do believe that Jacskon got Boromir spot on character wise. Petulant, childish, heroic, patriotic and blinkered........

PS Gandalf's look as the trolls come through the gate - now THAT look might have worked better when he was confronted by the witch king................

alatar · 12-15-2006, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essex

PS Gandalf's look as the trolls come through the gate - now THAT look might have worked better when he was confronted by the witch king................

What still kills me is how quickly the Army of Darkness gains the Gate. My daughter and I were watching Xena this morning, and the episode dealt with the Battle of Thermopylae. Xena single-handedly holds off the attacking Persians, littering the landscape with dead until the invaders think better of visiting Greece. Not exactly sure that that was 'history,'

but the movie The 300 may be a somewhat closer retelling of the event in 480 BC where a small group of determined soldiers held off a large force, using the narrow road to extreme advantage.

Think that the Americans have the 'Alamo.'

Anyway, so seeing these examples it irks me that PJ, via the Gondorian soldiers under Gandalf's command, didn't fill the Grond-broken gate with troll and orc dead. Even if it only gave a moments pause - Gothmog could have had Grond swing one more time, pushing the carcasses out of the way - it would have at least made Gandalf and the Gondorians somewhat competent. PJ could then continue with his 'desperate situation' portrayal, but I would then at least not thought the defense impotent.

Thoughts?

11-23-2006, 07:56 AM	#1
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,499	LotR3-RotK-Seq13 They're here. - Poltergeist, 1982 Pippin looks out over the city and the battle. Seemingly ants, from this height, both attack and defend. All is dark, and even the multitude of torches give no real light…or hope. Behind him there is movement. The Steward leads a procession, possibly the beginning of a funeral. Denethor’s words about “Thus have I walked,” seem out of context. I can see what PJ intends, but… And by the by, just how do they keep the body of Faramir from sliding off of that shield-looking thing on which he lies? As Denethor walks past the Tree and says that there is “no hope for Men,” we see in the foreground one single white bloom. Maybe all is not lost. Pippin follows the Steward down the Rath Dínen, the Silent Street, to the tombs of the Kings. Denethor, looking out on his city, wonders why anyone even tries to escape the tide of death that is overtaking them, as sooner or later, all will die, he thinks. Note that he has time to choose the manner of his death while those below sell themselves so that he has said time. We see in a long shot that Pippin still follows behind, and I assume that, as the hobbit walks in a hunched manner, that he is being stealthy, as so cannot be seen. We enter one of the tombs (seeing former Kings and Stewards on the sides) and learn what Denethor intends for he and his remaining son. It’s to be a barbecue, and royalty is back on the menu. Back at the Gate, Grond punches a hole through on the third try. Gandalf pumps up the troops, letting everyone know that, whether Battle Troll or Fuller Brush salesman, the soldiers on Gondor are to stand their ground. Thanks for the advice, oh wise one. Three Battle Trolls (specifically at the request of PJ) enter as the Gate is destroyed. Gandalf looks frightened as these huge beasts make their entrance, and after a pause he gives them a volley. This doesn't seem to slow them, and shortly after this, about a thousand assorted orcs enter through the Gate, which, previously, no enemy has passed. Gandalf and Shadowfax manage to take out one troll, but this is a drop in the bucket. What I can never figure is why the Gate wasn't plugged with so many enemy dead that entering Minas Tirith would have been slow work? Anyway... The Gate is open. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

11-23-2006, 01:51 PM	#4
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,330	There is something in this affair of Denethor's pyre and indeed most of all concerning Denethor that I think PJ kind of oversimplifies and caricatures. When I read the book, I see both Boromir and his father as remnants of something like the age of classical virtues and human courage disenchanted from magic or unawaited kicks of luck - not to mention any benevolent powers above the understanding of men. Like Romans, in a sense. Wanting to be buried "as the heathen kings of old" just affirms this interpretation. In the movie Boromir is taken by the lust of power and the lure of force (aided by the Ring, surely), but Denethor is just a wicked, unjust and selfish steward going mad. In the book his downfall was furthered by the "knowledge" he had from the Palantir, but here we see little of it. So just a madman? Somehow in the book there is one kind of courage and nobleness in their behaviour, but in the movies they, at least Denethor, seem to be just examples of wrongly-thinking losers. __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

11-23-2006, 12:38 PM	#3
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,752	I'm thinking double-stick tape.

12-11-2006, 10:08 AM	#5
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 887	You realise just how much PJ loves Middle-earth when you see Rath Dinen. The quality of the workmanship in the tombs is just breathtaking. To put all that effort in to a few minutes of screen time shows the love and care PJ has for this material. Yes, he has his own ideas on what constitues an adaption of book form to movie form and we can all agree and disagree on how well he has done this, but the level of detail and craftmenship on these films cannot be denied, surely.... PS I agree somewhat about Denethor's portrayal not being correct. If we could have at least seen the palntir, esp. in the EE. but alas, no. I still view the movie as Denethor DOES have the palantir and is driven mad by it, it's just that we don't see it..... But I do believe that Jacskon got Boromir spot on character wise. Petulant, childish, heroic, patriotic and blinkered........ PS Gandalf's look as the trolls come through the gate - now THAT look might have worked better when he was confronted by the witch king................