Ioreth

[Assasin]

Does anyone have a clue what she was like?

[Mithalwen]

Assassin

This is from my post in "The Role of Women in The Lord of the Rings" (Books)

"May I give Ioreth a further mention. She is admittedly a fairly minor character but she gets a fairly raw deal, I think. She is seen as a somewhat ridiculous figure prattling away and self important, but I think that prattle is a habit of those who are seldom listened to. Remember that she is (apart from Eowyn) the only named woman in the city and the city is a warzone, so she is actually quite brave. It is reasonable to assume that the only family she has are the mentioned sisters. She represents another category - the women whose work and worth are unappreciated, in a society where unmarried and unmarriagiable women have little staus. She is the Miss Bates of LOTR useful only for the care of the sick and a butt of humour; and a very good reminder for women of my generation to be grateful for the feminists of earlier generations........"


BTW
Element Fire I know this is Novices and Newcomers and the level of discussion is not expected to be as serious as on "Books" but if there is any point to your comment perhaps you would like to explain it? And if there isn't...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

"May I give Ioreth a further mention. She is admittedly a fairly minor character but she gets a fairly raw deal, I think. She is seen as a somewhat ridiculous figure prattling away and self important, but I think that prattle is a habit of those who are seldom listened to. Remember that she is (apart from Eowyn) the only named woman in the city and the city is a warzone, so she is actually quite brave. It is reasonable to assume that the only family she has are the mentioned sisters. She represents another category - the women whose work and worth are unappreciated, in a society where unmarried and unmarriagiable women have little staus. She is the Miss Bates of LOTR useful only for the care of the sick and a butt of humour; and a very good reminder for women of my generation to be grateful for the feminists of earlier generations........"

Never thought of her before as being brave, but as you mention, she stayed to help in a war zone. Nice insights.

I happen to see her as another LOTR character with a unique and distinctive 'voice' - sure she wags her tongue a bit, but who would remember her if she just stated the facts? I saw her as no more or less in stature than that of the Warden (or Beregond, or Denethor, etc) who again has a different 'woolgathering' voice.

Was Tolkien trying to say something in that ME's savior is a small 'intellectual' hobbit, and the savior of Merry, Faramir and Eowyn (amongst others) is Ioreth of stature proposed by Mithalwen?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

Was Tolkien trying to say something in that ME's savior is a small 'intellectual' hobbit, and the savior of Merry, Faramir and Eowyn (amongst others) is Ioreth of stature proposed by Mithalwen?

I have to say that I am not sure I wouldn't go that far.. I wouldn't say that she is particularly significant to the story - other than it oils Aragorn's acceptance by his people, and I think Tolkien meant no more than for her to provide a little light relief at a moment of high tension and as a device to get Aragorn into the city

If you look at the original thread, she crops up as an example of an "ordinary", non-idealised woman. Perhaps she is the only one with a distinctive voice as you put it (and certainly she is distinctive).

If you look at the " Houses of healing", it says that she is an old wife - wife originally simply meant woman - eldest of those who served there. She has some herb lore and if she is ignorant of the what is going on it is becasue she has focused on the sick. Gandalf calls her a "wise-woman" (altogether now "There are two things you should know about the wise woman... one .. she is wise..")

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I have to say that I am not sure I wouldn't go that far.. I wouldn't say that she is particularly significant to the story - other than it oils Aragorn's acceptance by his people, and I think Tolkien meant no more than for her to provide a little light relief at a moment of high tension and as a device to get Aragorn into the city.

True, but she does 'establish' Aragorn as the King as she reminds him that he needs to be a healer too. I think she shows 'acceptance' by the untitled people who aren't impressed with titles, lineages or skill with a sword.

If you look at the original thread, she crops up as an example of an "ordinary", non-idealised woman. Perhaps she is the only one with a distinctive voice as you put it (and certainly she is distinctive).

She gives the story a 'real' feel in that she is earthy/common - no elvish or Numenorian blood, no elvish prophecy in her head, no great feats of daring-do...During the coronation of the first king in *how* many generations she's still talking! How cool is that? ("Sure, the Nameless One was defeated and the King has returned, but wait until you hear what *I* did!").

Plus, Tolkien has so many major and minor characters to deal with that I think that you are to assume that there are many such Ioreths (ordinary woman) like there are many such Bergils (ordinary boy) to fill in the environment using the models that he provides.

I agree regarding the comic relief status. Gimli can't be everywhere...

Gandalf calls her a "wise-woman" (altogether now "There are two things you should know about the wise woman... one .. she is wise..")

Meaning? (Am I slow on the uptake?)

[Mithalwen]

Soory ... that was one for fans of "The Black Adder" or rather "Blackadder the Second" when Edmund seeks out the wise woman and receive the following advice from the man who gives directions:

Old Man : "There are 2 things you should klnow about the wise woman..one, she is wise, two .."

Edmund (in a hurry) "She's a woman I suppose?"

Old Man "Oh you know her then?" Sorry .....


Actually I think Bergil makes it clear that most have gone... but I think it is a good touch that Tolkien uses Ioreth rather than a random woman to be voice in crowd.

BTW .. Gimli as comic relief, is a bit of a film invention. I Master of Middle Earth, Paul Kocher says he only makes one joke in the whole book ... when he meets the Hobbits at Isengard ..

But after all that ... the short answer is "Good points"

[alatar]

Thanks. Heard of the show. Not up on all 'Britcoms' - I love the "Young Ones" and "The Brittas Empire."

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

BTW .. Gimli as comic relief, is a bit of a film invention. I Master of Middle Earth, Paul Kocher says he only makes one joke in the whole book ... when he meets the Hobbits at Isengard ..

Sorry that I wasn't more clear - I was going to add a line re PJ on the Gimli thing, but thought that you'd know what I meant (he being PJ's and not JRRT's clown).

[mark12_30]

Mithalwen and Alatar, several interesting points. May I donate a few more:

‘Indeed we have heard of Fangorn in Minas Tirith,’ said Boromir. ‘But what I have heard seems to me for the most part old wives’ tales, such as we tell to our children.....’
‘Then I need say no more,’ said Celeborn. ‘But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know.’

It has been pointed out more than once that next to Celeborn stood a very, very, very old wife, who knew a great many tales. But she was still worth listening to.

‘The Ents!’ exclaimed Aragorn. ‘Then there is truth in the old legends about the dwellers in the deep forests and the giant shepherds of the trees? Are there still Ents in the world? I thought they were only a memory of ancient days, if indeed they were ever more than a legend of Rohan.’

Was Aragorn listening when Celeborn made his point?

‘They are the shepherds of the trees,’ answered Gandalf [to Theoden]. ‘Is it so long since you listened to tales by the fireside? "

Theoden did listen to Gandalf, as we see in his next little lore-test (italics mine: )

...said Théoden. ‘So these are the lost ones of your company, Gandalf? The days are fated to be filled with marvels. Already I have seen many since I left my house; and now here before my eyes stand yet another of the folk of legend. Are not these the Halflings, that some among us call the Holbytlan?’

Even the herb-master at the houses of healing didn't get it:

Thereupon the herb-master entered. ‘Your lordship asked for kingsfoil... ... it has no virtue that we know of... ...Unless, of course, you give heed to rhymes of old days which women such as our good Ioreth still repeat without understanding.

When the black breath blows
and death’s shadow grows
and all lights pass,
come athelas! come athelas!
Life to the dying
In the king’s hand lying!

It is but a doggrel, I fear, garbled in the memory of old wives. Its meaning I leave to your judgement, if indeed it has any. But old folk still use an infusion of the herb for headaches.’

‘Then in the name of the king, go and find some old man of less lore and more wisdom who keeps some in his house!’ cried Gandalf.

Did Ioreth really repeat this rhyme without understanding? Or had the loremaster simply lost the art of listening respectfully to wise-- although sometimes very annoying-- old women?

The entire point of the passage is that, just as Celeborn had warned, "old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know"-- and may be needful again. Gandalf is not long on patience, and rarely does anyone give him counsel, but look at his response to Ioreth's opening words:

Then an old wife, Ioreth, the eldest of the women who served in that house, looking on the fair face of Faramir, wept, for all the people loved him. And she said: ‘Alas! if he should die. Would that there were kings in Gondor, as there were once upon a time, they say! For it is said in old lore: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer. And so the rightful king could ever be known.’

And Gandalf, who stood by, said: ‘Men may long remember your words, Ioreth! For there is hope in them. Maybe a king has indeed returned to Gondor; or have you not heard the strange tidings that have come to the City?’

‘I have been too busy with this and that to heed all the crying and shouting,’ she answered. ‘All I hope is that those murdering devils do not come to this House and trouble the sick.’

Then Gandalf went out in haste...

[Assasin]

I think you got me wrong, you see I thought i was talking about Eomer's wife who I read somwhere that her name was Ioreth.

Am I wrong?

[Formendacil]

Yup, you're wrong.

Ioreth was an old, single woman in Minas Tirith. Eligible, but not Eomer-marrying material.

Eomer's wife was Lothiriel (with a ' over the "o", which I am too lazy to try and find the code to), the daughter and youngest child of Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth. Other than general family history, nothing is known about her.

[mark12_30]

So much for my rant.

Lothiriel of Dol Amroth...

Ummm, she had elvish blood, and she probably missed the sea just a bit, as folk who move inland tend to do.

[Encaitare]

Don't feel bad, mark... it was a very nice rant.

[davem]

Apparently Ioreth means 'ancient' in Sindarin. The modern English equivalent being Priscilla. Wonder if Tolkien was letting us in on some kind of family in-joke regarding his daughter - maybe Priscilla was a bit like Ioreth?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Apparently Ioreth means 'ancient' in Sindarin. The modern English equivalent being Priscilla. Wonder if Tolkien was letting us in on some kind of family in-joke regarding his daughter - maybe Priscilla was a bit like Ioreth?

My dear davem, perhaps we can step back and consider a few dates. Priscilla Tolkien was born in 1929. LotR was completed in 1949, according to Carpenter, when Priscilla was twenty years old. A teen chatterbox? Perhaps, but that hardly suggests a gossipy old woman. A more likely namesake for Tolkien's daughter is this:

Important friends to St. Paul in the New Testament are the tentmakers Priscilla and Aquila. Paul lived with them for several years, they held a church in their home (an important factor in suggesting their devotion to the new faith, in a time of persecution, when Christians celebrated in private homes rather than in public buildings), and they travelled with Paul at times in his ministry. In fact, Priscilla is named over her husband several times--the Catholic Encyclopedia even comments that it is not know why she is named before her husband. Yet Priscilla is regarded as a special protector of Paul and of Christianity in other traditions.

There is a Saint Priscilla, whose catacombs are in the Via Salaria in Rome. Frescoes on the wall date to the 2nd and 3rd centuries. One of them shows a woman presiding over the Eucharist, although later church tradition insists this is a representation of Peter. Yet when the mass was celebrated in private homes, a woman presiding over it is not unlikely.

In short, Priscilla was an important figure in the early Christian church.

If there is a likely link, it was that Tolkien sought a name of a devout and faithful woman from the New Testament for his daughter, a woman who became known for her faith and support. Perhaps in some way Tolkien also recognised how the influence of such a woman became downgraded over the centuries of paternalistic traditions. That might be a more plausible way to understand Ioreth of LotR, I would think: a woman who kept the faith and lore and understanding even as she was dismissed as a talkative old crone.

The Wife of Bath is also garrulous, although Chaucer's Dame Alice had several husbands. That trait of garrulousness has a long tradition in literary types; think of Austen's Miss Bates. Perhaps there's a bit of these literary types in Ioreth. But a family in-joke is hardly likely.

And from what I have read of Priscilla Tolkien, she is a gracious and kind woman who is very helpful to the memory of her father, giving time to the Tolkien Society, for instance. She held a professional job in her adult life. Just because she is now elderly and unmarried, are we to insinuate some other traits about her?

[davem]

Note to self: Insert smileys when making jokes.

Perhaps not a(n affectionate) family joke. Maybe a philologist's in joke that the name of his daughter has the same meaning as that of one of his characters. Maybe there is some connection though - in that he wanted to include a hidden reference to his daughter in the book.

I didn't intend any disrespect to Priscilla. I haven't met her, but I have been at the past three Oxonmoots where she has presided over the Saturday lunch & my impression of her is a very positive one.

Besides, I happen to like Ioreth ....

[Bêthberry]

Well, had he wanted to include a hidden reference to his daughter, why not give the wise old elf woman in Lorien the name Ioreth? And give 'Galadriel' to the garrulous one. *insert joking smiley here*

But an interesting thought: do we know if Tolkien included any other hidden reference to a family member? Can we trace names of Tolkien's sons in LotR? of Edith? I could see doing this in The Hobbit, where discovery might increase children's glee, but why do it in LotR for just one child, particularly since the Letters suggest that it was Christopher who was the favoured child.

[Mithalwen]

There might be a much more prosaic explanation, I am not a great Elvish scholar, I have noticed that Tolkien often gives descriptive names for his female characters... With Arwen, after a few try outs he just calls Elrond's daughter "Noble maiden", which is what she is. Erendis means " Lonely bride", Aredhel "noble elf". I know we have a tendancy to analyse everything to the nth degree, but maybe when he needed a name for this minor character, eldest of the wise women - he simply called her "ancient" (which of course does not have competely negative connotations (cf the elvish name for Bombadil, Iarwain - rendered as "eldest").

After all, at the time LOTR was published, I don't suppose that he ever expected that many people would find out waht these names meant.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

do we know if Tolkien included any other hidden reference to a family member? Can we trace names of Tolkien's sons in LotR? of Edith? I could see doing this in The Hobbit, where discovery might increase children's glee, but why do it in LotR for just one child, particularly since the Letters suggest that it was Christopher who was the favoured child.

According to my little book of modern equivalents of Elvish names Chritopher (Lat. 'Christ bearer') would be something like 'Erugyl', John (Heb. 'God is gracious) would be 'Erufaelon' & Michael (Heb. 'Who is like God') would be 'Manhueru', so the theory starts to fall down right there

Another (possibly) interesting example: 'Arwen' has the same meaning as Patricia.

Thinking about it, I suppose this book might be quite useful for RPG's - if anyone was into the kind of 'in-jokes' I was referring to - you could include your friends (or enemies )in your posts in Elvish guise...

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I am not a great Elvish scholar, I have noticed that Tolkien often gives descriptive names for his female characters..

I think he does it with all his characters, male & female. I don't think there are any characters with names that don't relate to their characters, or make some comment about them.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by davem

I think he does it with all his characters, male & female. I don't think there are any characters with names that don't relate to their characters, or make some comment about them.

Hmm makes Elrond seem a bit chavvy, calls his daughter "princess" - it doesn't show a lot of insight really, not much different from the Romans calling their daughters "Prima, Secunda, Tertia" etc. And some characters definitely do better than others: Galadriel - "Radiantly garlanded maiden" Ioreth "old biddy".....