Who/What is Gothmog? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88 · 06-09-2004, 10:13 AM

Gothmog was mentioned in one line from the book ROTK. And it never explained how he looked, or really who he was. Just basically he was 2nd in command of Sauron's army, behind the Witch King. So I ask what lets say "race" do you think Gothmog is?

I've heard many things about how Gothmog could be one of the Ringwraiths, maybe some twisted demented orc or troll. Neither of these I agree with, I'm not sure why but I just dont think Gothmog is a Ringwraith but he could be. And Sauron would have never trusted an orc to be 2nd in command of his army.

To me, Gothmog comes out as a person, sort of like The Mouth of Sauron. The Mouth of Sauron (MOS) was said to be a black Numenorean who was taken in by Sauron and learned much from Sauron, basically necromancy, spells...etc. So I wouldn't be surprised if Gothmog was similar in some reguards, a person taken in by Sauron, twisted in a way, and became 2nd in command. But the name Gothmog really doesnt sound like a name that would be given to a man. So what are your thoughts?

**The Saucepan Man** · 06-09-2004, 10:18 AM

Search results on "Gothmog".

Son of Númenor · 06-09-2004, 10:19 AM

A search on "Gothmog" yields up several threads dedicated to the discussion of who or what the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul actually is. The basic conclusion of all the threads seems to be that there can be no conclusion - Tolkien did not deem Gothmog important enough to assign him a race or a background.

Edit: Cross-posting, Saucie.

Lachwen · 06-10-2004, 09:15 PM

I've always believed that Gothmog was, as Boromir88 said, a Black Númenórean. As for the name...well, it said in the books that the Mouth of Sauron had been in Sauron's service for so long he had forgotten his real name, so, if Gothmog is of his kin, the same thing has probably happened. My guess is that Gothmog was a name given to the Lieutenant of Morgul, as a sign of prestige and power - rather like the battering-ram used against Minas Tirith being called Grond.

PaleStar · 06-27-2004, 05:34 PM

Hm...I may be thinking of the wrong thing but..I thought Gothmog was the Lord Of The Balrogs...or is that completely the wrong person?

NightKnight · 06-28-2004, 05:43 PM

That was one Gothmog, but there was also another. He's mentioned in RotK, when the Witch-King has fallen, as the second commander of Morgul's armies.

The Perky Ent · 06-28-2004, 07:58 PM

Hmm...interesting. I always thought of Gothmog as an orc. Although pink and deformed, if you look around his eyes, mouth, and other parts of his body, you can see a blackness. The same blackness found in the complexion of orcs. I, personally, thought he was a very powerful orc (maybe an Uruk) who killed either a bunch of humans, or pigs (or other pink livestock) and woar it during war. But then, that's just me...

NightKnight · 06-28-2004, 08:21 PM

And that's also the movie version.

He commanded the Morgul host all the way from Osgiliath, in the books WK led the army until he died.

The Perky Ent · 06-28-2004, 08:29 PM

Yes, well, I trust the movie...in some cases. Anyways, what does that have to do with commanding orc armies until he dies. Did I say something that contradicts that fact?

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 06-29-2004, 04:51 AM

The films are not the books. Even if they had followed the details of the books in every way, they would still not answer questions like this, because they are just a visual interpretation of Tolkien's writing. Only J.R.R. Tolkien, as Gothmog's inventor, could say for certain who or what he was supposed to be. Learned speculation based on things that Tolkien did say is acceptable, but to use the films to support that speculation, when we know that they don't even follow the plot of his book, is as ridiculous as using one of our RPGs to do so; more so in my opinion. I think that NightKnight was pointing out an inconsistency between the book and the film to demonstrate just why the films shouldn't be used to explain the books.

This part of the forum is for in-depth discussions of Tolkien's writing. I'm sure that they're interested in speculation about film-Gothmog's race over in Movies, but it just doesn't belong here.

Why am I even arguing this? The whole thread's in the wrong place and redundant, so I don't expect that it'll be open for long.

NightKnight · 06-29-2004, 05:39 AM

That was exactly my point, Squatter.

06-09-2004, 10:13 AM	#1
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,559	Who/What is Gothmog? Gothmog was mentioned in one line from the book ROTK. And it never explained how he looked, or really who he was. Just basically he was 2nd in command of Sauron's army, behind the Witch King. So I ask what lets say "race" do you think Gothmog is? I've heard many things about how Gothmog could be one of the Ringwraiths, maybe some twisted demented orc or troll. Neither of these I agree with, I'm not sure why but I just dont think Gothmog is a Ringwraith but he could be. And Sauron would have never trusted an orc to be 2nd in command of his army. To me, Gothmog comes out as a person, sort of like The Mouth of Sauron. The Mouth of Sauron (MOS) was said to be a black Numenorean who was taken in by Sauron and learned much from Sauron, basically necromancy, spells...etc. So I wouldn't be surprised if Gothmog was similar in some reguards, a person taken in by Sauron, twisted in a way, and became 2nd in command. But the name Gothmog really doesnt sound like a name that would be given to a man. So what are your thoughts?

06-09-2004, 10:18 AM	#2
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,468	Search results on "Gothmog". __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

06-09-2004, 10:19 AM	#3
Son of Númenor A Shade of Westernesse Join Date: May 2004 Location: The last wave over Atalantë Posts: 527	A search on "Gothmog" yields up several threads dedicated to the discussion of who or what the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul actually is. The basic conclusion of all the threads seems to be that there can be no conclusion - Tolkien did not deem Gothmog important enough to assign him a race or a background. Edit: Cross-posting, Saucie. __________________ "This miserable drizzling afternoon I have been reading up old military lecture-notes again:- and getting bored with them after an hour and a half. I have done some touches to my nonsense fairy language - to its improvement."

06-10-2004, 09:15 PM	#4
Lachwen Wight Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Greenwood the Great. Posts: 115	I've always believed that Gothmog was, as Boromir88 said, a Black Númenórean. As for the name...well, it said in the books that the Mouth of Sauron had been in Sauron's service for so long he had forgotten his real name, so, if Gothmog is of his kin, the same thing has probably happened. My guess is that Gothmog was a name given to the Lieutenant of Morgul, as a sign of prestige and power - rather like the battering-ram used against Minas Tirith being called Grond. __________________ "'...Home is the sailor, home from the sea, And the hunter home from the hill.'"

06-27-2004, 05:34 PM	#5
PaleStar Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 43	Hm...I may be thinking of the wrong thing but..I thought Gothmog was the Lord Of The Balrogs...or is that completely the wrong person? __________________ Then down the warrior tumbled/a long and weary way/ 'till at last he rested soundly/ among the water below/ bested by the darkness

06-28-2004, 05:43 PM	#6
NightKnight Lost among the Stars Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden) Posts: 2,696	That was one Gothmog, but there was also another. He's mentioned in RotK, when the Witch-King has fallen, as the second commander of Morgul's armies. __________________ There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.

06-28-2004, 07:58 PM	#7
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,332	Hmm...interesting. I always thought of Gothmog as an orc. Although pink and deformed, if you look around his eyes, mouth, and other parts of his body, you can see a blackness. The same blackness found in the complexion of orcs. I, personally, thought he was a very powerful orc (maybe an Uruk) who killed either a bunch of humans, or pigs (or other pink livestock) and woar it during war. But then, that's just me... __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

06-28-2004, 08:21 PM	#8
NightKnight Lost among the Stars Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden) Posts: 2,696	And that's also the movie version. He commanded the Morgul host all the way from Osgiliath, in the books WK led the army until he died. __________________ There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.

06-28-2004, 08:29 PM	#9
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,332	Yes, well, I trust the movie...in some cases. Anyways, what does that have to do with commanding orc armies until he dies. Did I say something that contradicts that fact? __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

06-29-2004, 04:51 AM	#10
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,206	Here we go again The films are not the books. Even if they had followed the details of the books in every way, they would still not answer questions like this, because they are just a visual interpretation of Tolkien's writing. Only J.R.R. Tolkien, as Gothmog's inventor, could say for certain who or what he was supposed to be. Learned speculation based on things that Tolkien did say is acceptable, but to use the films to support that speculation, when we know that they don't even follow the plot of his book, is as ridiculous as using one of our RPGs to do so; more so in my opinion. I think that NightKnight was pointing out an inconsistency between the book and the film to demonstrate just why the films shouldn't be used to explain the books. This part of the forum is for in-depth discussions of Tolkien's writing. I'm sure that they're interested in speculation about film-Gothmog's race over in Movies, but it just doesn't belong here. Why am I even arguing this? The whole thread's in the wrong place and redundant, so I don't expect that it'll be open for long. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

06-29-2004, 05:39 AM	#11
NightKnight Lost among the Stars Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden) Posts: 2,696	That was exactly my point, Squatter. __________________ There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.