The Fairest Kingdom/Realm in Middle-Earth

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

What kingdom/realm from the first age to the third age would you consider to be the fairest in Middle-earth? Don't base it merely on your liking but by its beauty, mechanism, & efficiency against its enemies.

[Formendacil]

Beauty, mechanism, and efficiency against its enemies?

I would say that, balancing those three equally, Numenor comes out clearly in the lead. But if you mean, realms or kingdoms of the late Third Age, I fear that the answer must be Mordor, for it had the highest level of technology (mechanisms) and off efficiency against its enemies.

I would fault your criteria for the "most fair" realm, but based on that criteria, Mordor would appear to be the logical answer- or possibly Isengard.

NOTE: As a matter of opinion, should this not be in Novices and Newcomers? Not quite sure I understand the distinction between the forums...

[Gurthang]

I would have to say that as far as the specifications you mentioned, I agree with Formendacil.

Beauty -- It might go unnoticed, but there is a large lake in Mordor, and I've heard tale that it is surrounded by a fair country that's good for farming. Sauron must feed his armies, after all.

Mechanism -- Mordor certainly had many of those, although I'm not sure exactly what kind. They would have to be substantial though, because Sauron used very large seige engines and catapults in his attack on Gondor.

Efficiency against its enemies -- Besides the huge armies to guard it, what better to protect your country than impassible mountains?

But I should point out that Lorien would not be far behind. They would only lack the Mechanisms category to overtake Mordor. I actually think that Lothlorien surpasses Mordor in the other two respects.

[Mithalwen]

I think that Rivendell deserves a mention.

It never suffered an assualt - even Gandalf had trouble finding it in The Hobbit and poor old Boromir was lucky to get there at all. It has lovely gardens, the stars there are fairest of all, lots of good food and comfortable accommodation. It is a centre of healing and learning and is multicultural - refuge for the Elves, base for the depleted Dunedain, home for a retired hobbit and welcoming to all enemies of the one enemy. I would love to see the mellyrn of Lothlorien and some of the dwellings of the Noldor in the Elder days ( can't help thinking of Gondolin as an Elvish LAs Vegas - some of the descriptions are a bit gaudy!) - but Imladris has everything save the sea.......

[Nimrodel_9]

It never suffered an assualt

Yes, but if the elves were there longer I believe it would have been attacked eventually. That is if the Ring was delayed in getting destroyed.

I agree with Formendacil and Gurthang. Mordor seems to fit all three. Well, I don't know about beauty, but perhaps it was at one time.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nimrodel_9

Yes, but if the elves were there longer I believe it would have been attacked eventually. That is if the Ring was delayed in getting destroyed.

I agree with Formendacil and Gurthang. Mordor seems to fit all three. Well, I don't know about beauty, but perhaps it was at one time.

Well that is possible but Gandalf said that it would be last to fall.....and the fact is it wasn't attacked. I have to say anyone voting Mordor seems to be wilfully ignoring the title of the thread. Mordor is a dump.....there is no mention of it being anything other than horrible. Just because a remote part may be cultivated it doesn't mean it is fair by any stretch of the imagination. It is peverse to mark down Rivendell for an attack that never happened but credit Mordor with a possible, one time beauty of which there is no suggestion I can think of in the texts.

I stick with Imladris, beautiful, cultured, full of music, light and peace - and hidden. I think Dol Amroth would be quite good too...

[Elrian]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think that Rivendell deserves a mention.

It never suffered an assualt - even Gandalf had trouble finding it in The Hobbit and poor old Boromir was lucky to get there at all. It has lovely gardens, the stars there are fairest of all, lots of good food and comfortable accommodation. It is a centre of healing and learning and is multicultural - refuge for the Elves, base for the depleted Dunedain, home for a retired hobbit and welcoming to all enemies of the one enemy. I would love to see the mellyrn of Lothlorien and some of the dwellings of the Noldor in the Elder days ( can't help thinking of Gondolin as an Elvish LAs Vegas - some of the descriptions are a bit gaudy!) - but Imladris has everything save the sea.......

It was assaulted twice.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

As this is a topic that asks primarily for opinions, not actual book discussion, I'm moving it to the Novices and Newcomers forum, where "favourite" threads are placed. Please continue to read and post there - thanks!

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Elrian

It was assaulted twice.

When? I think you may be confused with Lorien...

[Elrian]

When the Witchking still ruled Angmar, They had to get aid from Lorien during the 2nd attack. I know the difference between Rivendell and Lorien!

[Mithalwen]

Eeeek Text ref please!!! Cannot find a reference in tale of Years.... It is hard to see if it were attacked, how it could survive since they would be trapped in the valley :S

[Elrian]

(ROtK) Appendix A :under "The North Kingdom and the Dunedain". End of the 5th paragraph and onward.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Well I've noticed some people here choosing Mordor but I was implying of elvish kingdoms since Mordor doesn't really have any "fair" qualities at all. So please exclude Mordor or Angband.

As for me, I'm torn between Doriath & Lothlorien. Doriath was guarded by a Maia & it's magic ward reached Region & Neldoreth whereas Lothlorien was but a small country. Doriath was also wrought out according to visions of Melian (resembling Valinor) but Lothlorien was seemingly timeless & new as if all things of color were perceived at the very first sight, and an unearthly light lay upon it. Even Gandalf praises it.

In Dwimordene, in Lórien

Seldom have walked the feet of Men,
Few mortal eyes have seen the light
That lies there ever, long and bright.
Galadriel! Galadriel!
Clear is the water of your well;
White is the star in your white hand;
Unmarred, unstained is leaf and land
In Dwimordene, in Lórien

More fair than thoughts of Mortal Men.- The Two Towers

Is it possible that Doriath was also shielded from the decays of time by Melian?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Elrian

(ROtK) Appendix A :under "The North Kingdom and the Dunedain". End of the 5th paragraph and onward.

I can find "it was said that at this time Rivendell was besieged" - is that what you mean..? If so - well besieged and assaulted are not synonyms...... hmm... but I I am not confident enough of my early TA history to argue too strongly ...

However before I lose all confidence I am pleased to know I at least correctly interpreted the question ..


Edit
If the person who neg repped this contacts me I will do my best to correct what ever offence I have caused. I can only assume what I intended to be mitigation came across as smug or arrogant.... but leaving neither name nor comment is not helpful....

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I would pick Rivendell as the fairest. It is enriched by the lore of ages past, and this melancholy and history adds to the beauty of the physical environment. That's fair. It doesn't matter how strong its defences were (though they were very strong).

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Well I've noticed some people here choosing Mordor but I was implying of elvish kingdoms since Mordor doesn't really have any "fair" qualities at all. So please exclude Mordor or Angband.

I rather THOUGHT that was what you were intending, but the criteria you were offering leads me to think that you have a rather different idea of "fairness" than I do. Mechanisation and efficiency against one's enemies? Mechanization, as the Shire demonstrates, really wasn't one of Tolkien's conception of "fairness", and efficiency against one's enemies smacks of Stalinism or Hitlerism to me...

Now that you have clarified what you want, I must ask: do you think that human realms cannot match Elven ones? Because in the above quote you have limited it to the Elvish kingdoms?

Furthermore, I should think it quite plain that Valinor is the fairest of realms...

Or did you mean to say in Middle-Earth?

~The Devil's Advocate-

Formendacil~

[Mithalwen]

Somehow - Valinor always seems so bright - and if nothing dies then there is no autumn or winter and they have their beauty too...... so I would not choose Valinor....

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I rather THOUGHT that was what you were intending, but the criteria you were offering leads me to think that you have a rather different idea of "fairness" than I do. Mechanisation and efficiency against one's enemies? Mechanization, as the Shire demonstrates, really wasn't one of Tolkien's conception of "fairness", and efficiency against one's enemies smacks of Stalinism or Hitlerism to me...

I'm confused by what you're saying. I was asking for a place that fit all criterias above. Such as Gondolin for example. It's efficient against its enemies because it was hidden & protected by the eagles but it was also fair to look upon. I hope that clears it up.

Now that you have clarified what you want, I must ask: do you think that human realms cannot match Elven ones? Because in the above quote you have limited it to the Elvish kingdoms?

Furthermore, I should think it quite plain that Valinor is the fairest of realms...

Or did you mean to say in Middle-Earth?

~The Devil's Advocate-

Formendacil~

It would be unfair to include Valinor since it has an unfair advantage. I'd say only kingdoms east of the sea. I believe mortal realms are to be included but they're in a different league on their own since their inhabitants die & decay is the norm for them. Perhaps leaning more towards the elvish kingdoms.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It's a misleading title in that case. Rosie Cotton was mighty fair but her defences weren't much (or so I've heard ). Leastways she couldn't resist a fierce attack.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

It's a misleading title in that case. Rosie Cotton was mighty fair but her defences weren't much (or so I've heard ). Leastways she couldn't resist a fierce attack.

Yes, but is she a kingdom or a realm?

I'm confused by what you're saying. I was asking for a place that fit all criterias above. Such as Gondolin for example. It's efficient against its enemies because it was hidden & protected by the eagles but it was also fair to look upon. I hope that clears it up.

I'm saying that I don't think that mechanics or defences (or indeed, attacks) are any indicator of "fairness". To be fair denotes a suggestion of beauty and gracefulness, purely a matter of looks and feel- nothing to do with mechanisms or warfare. For example, if I (a Hobbit) built a beautiful tower over my hill, and made it as fair to look upon as I possibly could, would it not be more fair than the far more efficient, mechanised, laser-guarded tower down the road run by Mordor Inc?

[Boromir88]

I would have loved to seen Minas Tirith with it's streets paved of marble and the gates lined with Mithril after the War of the Ring, would have been an awe to see. Ithilien would become a wonderful place as well, but I don't think it would contend with Lothlorien in it's glory when Galadriel was still around and the power of Nenya.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I would have loved to seen Minas Tirith with it's streets paved of marble and the gates lined with Mithril after the War of the Ring, would have been an awe to see. Ithilien would become a wonderful place as well, but I don't think it would contend with Lothlorien in it's glory when Galadriel was still around and the power of Nenya.

Do you think Lothlorien was fairer than Gondolin & Doriath?

[solarisa]

i guess...lothlorien was the fairest place? it's not as fair as the one in Valinor, but with malorns, and since Galadriel held the realm, it was supposed to be a sort of imitation of the one over the seas. there was no evil there, and time didn't affect it. so i choose lorien.
"...in lorien the ancient things still lived on in the waking world...on the land of lorien no shadows lay."

[Alcarillo]

Hmmm . . . I suppose I would say Lorien, too, but Doriath is also a contender. Both had the same style of "magical-ness". I'd have to say Lorien, because Doriath wasn't without catastrophe (Saeros being killed, the whole Nauglamir + Silmaril + dwarves = Dead Thingol). Lorien seems safer to me, so I'm going to go with Lorien. Yes, Gondolin was fair, too, but it was also destroyed (if not for Maeglin I might have chosen Gondolin as fairest). Lorien seems rather free of grief.

[mormegil]

I would say either Gondolin or Khazad-Dum.

I can't fathom how beautiful it must have been to come close to Valinor in beauty. And it's strength of arms as it's pinnacle is staggering as well. Being a hidden city it could have lasted much longer were it not for Maeglin the accursed. Can you imagine being Tuor and entering those beautifully wrought gates and beholding the majesty and grandeur of it all?

Khazad-dum would be a wonderful place to live if you don't mind being enclosed. Plenty of work to do and probably plenty of mirth, after their fashion. Also a wonderfully strong fortress. Plus I think the dwarves deserve a bit of recognition in this as well.

[Alcarillo]

Khazad-Dum, I completely forgot Dwarves! If not for the Balrog, I'm sure it must have rivalled all other places in beauty and security (having a hidden western doorway, too). I think I'll extend what I think as the fairest realm in all the land to the Moria/Lorien region. Imagine, right next door to this enchanted elven forest is this great underground city-fortress!

As for the fairest realm of the First Age, I suppose that Gondolin might be tied with Doriath. Mormegil has convinced me.

[Boromir88]

Do you think Lothlorien was fairer than Gondolin & Doriath?

I have only read the Silmarillion once (although I intend to reread it again), so for now I'm going to have to pass as I don't know enough about the places to make a good judgement. And I'll leave it up to the people who can.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Alcarillo

Hmmm . . . I suppose I would say Lorien, too, but Doriath is also a contender. Both had the same style of "magical-ness". I'd have to say Lorien, because Doriath wasn't without catastrophe (Saeros being killed, the whole Nauglamir + Silmaril + dwarves = Dead Thingol). Lorien seems safer to me, so I'm going to go with Lorien. Yes, Gondolin was fair, too, but it was also destroyed (if not for Maeglin I might have chosen Gondolin as fairest). Lorien seems rather free of grief.

Did not Melian maintain Doriath with the same "timelessness" (like of the Three) other than her girdle?

[Alcarillo]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Did not Melian maintain Doriath with the same "timelessness" (like of the Three) other than her girdle?

I always thought so, but I don't remember reading any proof of it anywhere.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Alcarillo

I always thought so, but I don't remember reading any proof of it anywhere.

Nowhere else did nephredil blossom anywhere except in Lothlorien & if Melian had no such power, it would've been foolish for her to establish a kingdom to begin with.

[Alcarillo]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Nowhere else did nephredil blossom anywhere except in Lothlorien & if Melian had no such power, it would've been foolish for her to establish a kingdom to begin with.

I don't think it would've been foolish for Melian and Thingol to establish the realm of Doriath if they did not give it a "magical" timelessness. There were many other elven lands, none of which were stated to have Lorien's timelessness, but their establishments were not foolish, too. I don't see why it would be foolish. It was protected by the Girdle of Melian, so it was certainly safe from attack. Why would it have been foolish to have a kingdom without magical timelessness? Elves could've still lived there, Melian and her family could still be happy, and Doriath itself would still be safe from attack. Was the establishment of Gondor and Arnor foolish, not having a timeless quality? I think not!

Or did your post mean that it would've been foolish for Melian to establish Doriath if she could not grow nephredil? It's a bit ambiguous.

And if you mean that because both realms have nephredil both are magically timeless, I don't see the connection. Perhaps Galadriel wanted to be reminded of Doriath. That could be all. Perhaps part of Lorien's timelessness is its similarity to Doriath.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Nowhere else did nephredil blossom anywhere except in Lothlorien & if Melian had no such power, it would've been foolish for her to establish a kingdom to begin with.

And to continue with what Alcarillo is saying, how does having nimphredil in one's yard make that yard any better or more beautiful than the neighbour's?

Just because one sort of flower does not grow in Doriath (and I confess to not remembering a direct statement saying that it only grows in Lorien) does not mean that Doriath is any less fair than Lorien, based on that one flower alone.

Who knows what flowers were found only found east of the Sea in Doriath? Perhaps plenty, brought over by Melian, perhaps none.

Fairness is, after all, a very subjective quality. The presence, or the absence, of a single species of flower- or even several- does not necessarily seal the case.

Similarly, I am not convinced that timelessness makes a place more beautiful. I would agree that Lothlorien in the time of Frodo undoubtedly had a much more peaceful, elegant, and graceful air than Minas Tirith did, but does that make Minas Tirith necessarily less fair than Lorien? Again, it's subjective. Just as some people look better with a wild-looking hairdo and casual clothes as opposed to the formal dress and neat hair that suits others, I suppose it's the same with realms.

~The Devil's Advocate -

Formendacil~

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Ugh. You people have twisted my words. I was saying that it might've been foolish for Melian to establish a kingdom if she did not cast a spell or had some power with similar effect to the Three which PRSERVED all the fair things that elves consider (such lands & trees). It had nothing to do with Nephredil!

Similarly, I am not convinced that timelessness makes a place more beautiful.

Under the law of the sun & moon, all things decay rapidly unlike before when it was still twilight in ME. That is exactly it, the timelessness was literal. Doriath, as fair as it was, Tolkien didn't describe it in an almost identical sense of Valinor like Lothlorien.

I don't think it would've been foolish for Melian and Thingol to establish the realm of Doriath if they did not give it a "magical" timelessness.

That's exactly it. A kingdom as majestic as Doriath would only fall into decay under the sun unless Melian hollowed it did some mojo but it was not mentioned in the Silmaril so this gives the impression that she did not posess such a power.

[CaptainofDespair]

Even so, cannot decay and death be beautiful? Lothlorien may have had timelessness (for a time), but wouldn't you grow weary of the same look? I know I would. The withering of the old, and the grow of the new upon the shell of the old is beautiful to some. If you don't have decay, you won't experience that. So, I would go with Gondolin for the First Age, and Imladris for the Third Age.

[Alcarillo]

[QUOTE=Gorthaur the Cruel]Ugh. You people have twisted my words. I was saying that it might've been foolish for Melian to establish a kingdom if she did not cast a spell or had some power with similar effect to the Three which PRSERVED all the fair things that elves consider (such lands & trees). It had nothing to do with Nephredil!QUOTE]

Eh, I'm not convinced that not making a place timeless was foolish. Many other kingdoms and realms of Middle-earth surely did not possess this magical timelessness, and yet their establishments surely must not have been foolish.

And like CaptainofDespair said, decay can be beautiful.