“Thee” and “thou” in “The Lord of the Rings”

[The Might]

Nice mention of the German translation, Pitch!
I've never read the books in German so it's new ground for me too.

I have to agree with the decision of avoiding using "du" and "Herr" together, it would definitely sound out of place.

[Pitchwife]

Er, Miggy, reread what I wrote. Ms Carroux doesn't avoid it, and somehow I agree with her, although it sounds weird. (I shudder to think what Krege may have done in the new translation.)

[Galadriel55]

That's interesting, Pitch. I really like the change with Gandalf. And that recording is just priceless!

In the Russian translation, Sam addresses most people defferentially. I believe (and I'm saying from memmory) that the only two people that he called by the familiar form were Hob Heyward and Gollum: the former as a friend and the latter by looking down on him. As hard as I try, I don't remember how he addressed Rosie. She addressed him in a familiar way for sure.

It seems to me, though, that Frodo was trying to convince Sam that he's not a servant but a friend to him. And Sam resisted believing that with all his might. I find it especially visible when Frodo speaks to Sam using familiar terms, and Sam replies defferentially.

Like in the German translation, Frodo addresses Maggot defferentially.

That Feanor quote is truly smashing! I wonder how he was still alive after that!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Another point, as far as I am concern, that he is "talking down" to Eowyn, the fact that he starts referring to himself in the third person, distancing himself.

That's a very interesting observation, Alfirin! It does add insult to injury, doesn't it?!

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

You knew I would have to post on this sooner or later, didn't you, Esty? I can only echo Mr Underhill - great thread and great posts so far.

Of course, Pitch! It's nice to see the (active) German members posting here, as we have daily experience of this linguistic usage. And thank you - I'm fascinated by the thoughts that have come up in the discussion, many of which hadn't occurred to me at all.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Sam calls Frodo du, Herr Frodo, which is highly unusual in German, where only little children use du and the honorific Herr, Frau + surname together (as in du, Frau Steimel), until they have learned the correct polite forms - but here it nicely reflects the mixture of deference and intimacy.

Now that really makes Sam sound like a first grader! I wasn't aware of that, not knowing the translation well.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Gandalf is addressed with du by Frodo and Bilbo, as befits a friend of the family, and by extension also by Merry and Pippin. To Sam, on the other hand, he is initially Ihr, Herr Gandalf; by the time they come to Moria, this has become du, Herr Gandalf (!), and at the end, on the Field of Cormallen, it's just du, Gandalf - showing nicely how the wizard changes in Sam's eyes from somebody both respected and feared to a companion who has become more familiar, but is still leader and guide, to a friend who is still respected but mostly loved.

Very interesting progression! And yes, I too am now curious as to what Krege did with the new translation - I may have to pick it up from the library to compare. I've attempted to avoid that till now!

Thanks to you too, G55, for sharing how the Russian translation handles the personal pronoun!

[The Might]

Pitch, I was talking about

and the Fellowship hobbits use Ihr to the lords and ladies they meet on their journey, like Elrond, Galadriel, King Théoden and Denethor, but also to 'normal' people like Beregond - which goes quite against the grain of Tolkien's remark in Appendix F. Apparently Ms Carroux felt she had to deviate from Tolkien in this, because it would sound childish in German to say du to an unfamiliar adult.

[Bêthberry]

Wow, I'm away from teh interwebs for a few days and a great discussion breaks out! Feels like the old days. Thanks, Esty, for a marvellous thread, and All you Downers for interesting replies. (I can't help but recall that refrain from Monty Python, "Bring out your Dead".

Originally Posted by Rumil

Very interesting Esty,

I'd not clocked the significance in Aragorn/Eowyn exchanges.

As I remember it thee and thine etc are archaic, and therefore bring to mind legendary romances (Tristan and Isolde etc) but also archaic in that they bring to mind great leaders of old.

The major contrast here is between the hobbits' modern usage of you and yours and the 'heroic types' use of thee and thine. However the romantic use is a very telling sub-set of usage.

Also that the Fellowship are 'you and yours'-ers generally, perhaps tying in with (Denethor's?) comment that Pippin uses a strange idiom. Were the Fellowship (Gimli, Legolas, Aragorn, Boromir) using the modern forms as a more every-day form of speech?

Also backing up Selmo in that Oop North number of these archaic forms are still part of regonal dialect.

In addition to Rumil's point about the archaic use in the old romances, the verse translation of the Kalevala which Tolkien knew so well also uses the older forms.

Originally Posted by WF Kirby, trans

Wherefore at thy heart's desire
Should I not thy flesh devour,
And drink up thy blood so evil?
I who guiltless flesh had eaten
Drank the blood of those who sinned not?

This is the sword's reply when Kullervo asks if it is willing to kill him.

Romance and myth were a strong pull for Tolkien.

[Pitchwife]

Sorry, Miggy, I got you wrong then - I thought you meant what I said about Sam. My bad.

Anyway, Sam isn't the only one with that peculiar usage. The Gaffer calls the miller du, Herr Sandigmann, with a good deal of irony, but both he and Farmer Cotton address Frodo as du, Herr Frodo and du, Herr Beutlin, respectively. Apparently, this is the proper way among hobbits in the Carroux translation. It makes Shire society feel more egalitarian and pre- or non-bourgeois than it may have been meant to be, and it also makes Frodo's Ihr to Maggot stand out all the more - he still seems to have been kind of in awe of the farmer.

[OT]

Originally Posted by Esty

*When romantic novels are translated from English to German, for example, the translator has to find a place to insert the switch from formal to familiar - when do the lovers stop saying "Sie" and start saying "Du"?!

Some never do - like Sartre and Beauvoir, who I think vouvoyed each other all their lives. But then they were French, and the French are weird in that respect anyway - they even talk to God like that.[/OT]

Thanks for the Kalevala quote, Bêthberry! I knew Kullervo was one of Tolkien's models for the Túrin story, but had forgotten how closely Túrin's dialogue with Gurthang is modelled on this passage.

Which reminds me, I was told that the formal pronoun is becoming rare in Finnish, and the Kalevala, on the other hand, only uses the informal forms in the original...*hopes for a Finn to chime in here about the Finnish LotR translation*

[Faramir Jones]

I was very interested in your comment, Pitchwife, about the usage by a particular French couple of the formal 'vous' between each other, rather than the intimate 'tu':

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Some never do - like Sartre and Beauvoir, who I think vouvoyed each other all their lives. But then they were French, and the French are weird in that respect anyway - they even talk to God like that.

There's a excellent example I've come up against, that I've used to explain to non-French speakers the difference in usage between 'tu' and 'vous'. Napoleon Bonaparte, general and future First Consul and Emperor of the French, married as his first wife, Josephine de Beauharnais. He was passionately in love with her, she far less with him. When he was fighting in Italy in 1796, he sent her frequent and passionate letters; hers were far less frequent and passionate. What particularly angered him was her insistence in refering to him with the formal 'vous'. In one letter, he said the following:


If I rise to work in the middle of the night, it is because this may hasten by a matter of days the arrival of my sweet love.

Yet in your letter of the 23rd, and 26th. Ventose, you call me vous. Vous yourself!

Ah! wretch, how could you have written this letter? How cold it is?

And then there are those four days between the 23rd, and the 26th.; what were you doing that you failed to write to your husband? ...

Ah, my love, that vous, those four days made me long for my former indifference. Woe to the person responsible!

May he as punishment and penalty, experience what my convictions and the evidence (which is in your friend's favor) would make me experience!

Hell has no torments great enough! Nor do the Furies have serpents enough! Vous! Vous!

[Faramir Jones]

Pitchwife, I wanted to comment on what you had to say here:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Some remarks to usage in the German (Carroux) translation: the hobbits in the Shire mostly use du towards each other, but Frodo and Farmer Maggot address each other with Ihr (which may reflect uneasy feelings from the past on Frodo's side, whereas on Maggot's it may indicate that he now treats Frodo with the respect due to the Baggins of Bag-End), and the Fellowship hobbits use Ihr to the lords and ladies they meet on their journey, like Elrond, Galadriel, King Théoden and Denethor, but also to 'normal' people like Beregond - which goes quite against the grain of Tolkien's remark in Appendix F. Apparently Ms Carroux felt she had to deviate from Tolkien in this, because it would sound childish in German to say du to an unfamiliar adult.

To be fair about Pippin's use of Ihr to Beregond, he initially thought that the latter was of higher rank, and was only later told by him that he was just a 'plain man of arms'.

How does Beregond refer to Pippin in the translation? Is it in formal or intimate terms? I'm interested because though both are equal in rank, Pippin is higher in social position, being the son and heir of the Thain.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

To be fair about Pippin's use of Ihr to Beregond, he initially thought that the latter was of higher rank, and was only later told by him that he was just a 'plain man of arms'.

True.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

How does Beregond refer to Pippin in the translation? Is it in formal or intimate terms? I'm interested because though both are equal in rank, Pippin is higher in social position, being the son and heir of the Thain.

Beregond also uses the formal Ihr, although he uses du with the other guards in the kitchen. Can't remember whether he was aware of Pippin's social position back home (and don't have the book here to check), but I guess Pip being a companion of Mithrandir and a guest of the Steward would have been cause enough to show some respect, just to be on the safe side.

PS. - Thanks for the Napoleon letter! He could get quite irascible, couldn't he? But my favourite is the one he wrote to Josephine on his way home from a campaign, where he tells her "Don't wash yourself, I'm coming".

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I have a couple of additional examples for the use of "thou". In these cases, they are found in the context of poetry/song. Gildor's Elves sing:

Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!
Clear are they eyes and bright thy breath!
Snow-white! Snow-white! We sing to thee...

Later on, we read that the last lines of Galadriel's song translate:

Maybe thou shalt find Valimar.
Maybe even thou shalt find it.

Her poetic messages to Aragorn and Legolas were already mentioned, I think.

Does poetry use the familiar form for some special reason? I do know that in some languages (French, and sometimes English, for example), otherwise silent syllables are pronounced in poetry and song, illustrating the fact that the lyrical use of language can differ from normal conversation.

Or can the use of "thou" in singing to a goddess such as Varda be compared to the familiar use in prayer?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

At last I get to join this most interesting thread... I'm afraid I won't have that much to add anymore... but anyway...

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Or can the use of "thou" in singing to a goddess such as Varda be compared to the familiar use in prayer?

I believe this would be the case. It is effectively a prayer, and therefore, that's the same way.

***

As for other uses of "thou" in translations, perhaps I could contribute my bit. In the Czech translation, we have basically the same situation as in Russian (the languages and culture-use of pronouns being very much alike in this respect), or even very similar to German, as far as I see from the previous. So just to put in one more language to compare, let me sum it up (even though like I said, it's very much similar):

In Czech, you have the "polite plural" you use towards adult people you are unfamiliar with, whether you are adult yourself or not. I am actually wondering whether the reason why people tend to call Hobbits by the familiar singular ("thou"-like) form isn't partially because of this "child-like" association in the foreigner's eyes.

Hobbits in general use the "familiar singular" (ty) towards each other, except for Sam, who keeps calling Frodo, but also Merry and Pippin in the polite plural (vy). Obviously here the class-status plays its role. Otherwise, the Hobbits tend to address other people by the polite plural, and for example when they first meet Strider, they call him that way. I believe, however, that once they become friends - and once the Fellowship is formed - everyone in the Fellowship addresses each other in the familiar singular form, except for Gandalf. The Hobbits keep referring to Gandalf as "vy" (plural), and so does Gimli (but not Legolas or Aragorn! Also, I recall being somewhat surprised by Boromir calling Gandalf "ty" - familiar singular - in front of Moria when asking him about the opening password).

What I said for Hobbits goes for Bilbo in general as well. Actually, it is quite funny - I believe in the whole book of The Hobbit, people do, as a rule, address each other only with the polite plural. Even Bilbo addressing Gollum (whom later Frodo and Sam address in singular). There are only two exceptions I can recall: the Dwarves talking to each other (e.g. Thorin to Dori) and, quite interestingly, Smaug to Bilbo. I am not sure if it has anything to do with the original - I could imagine "you" being used universally in the whole book since the book has the "modern" tone with not much "thou"-ing in it, but still, it's the translator's decision to translate each "you" as plural...

Now, speaking of that, there actually seems to be one interesting aspect to the Czech translation. Obviously, the singular form is not exactly the equivalent of English "thou", since "thou" has apparently quite archaic overtone, whereas the Czech "ty" is the most mundane thing you can have. In LotR, however, the translation seems to create something which we could call a new form of its own - technically. Not sure if it works like that in the other languages which have the singular/plural forms, so I would like to hear about that. But e.g. among Hobbits, the singular pronoun has the most mundane sense, like when I am talking to my friends. However, when e.g. Éowyn or Witch-king use the pronoun (as they do), it sounds somehow more "noble" - that's what I mean by saying that it creates something else.

In Czech, you could theoretically use the singular form in derogatory sense (as the W-K or even Éowyn towards him might be assumed to do), to someone whom you actually should address by the polite plural, but you decide not to in order to mock him. It brings to mind some 17-century colonialist guy addressing primitive natives in singular. However, in the case of W-K it does not sound that way (I believe the Mouth and the Orcs are about the only ones who actually feel like doing that). The same it is with Éowyn and Aragorn talking to each other: it does not give the same feeling as if two young people were having a date today. It's determined by the rest of the vocabulary they use: their language is so "high" or "noble" otherwise, that in some way, it would be more logical for them to use the polite plural (you) and it would fit well with the rest of the words they say. Using singular in such a case sounds peculiar (though a reader might not really give it much thought - this is the first time I am consciously reflecting on it - but in any case, it will sound strikingly different to him from the "mundane talk" he is used to) - and therefore, I believe, it gets closer to the archaic sound of "thou" in English.

There could be more to say, but I will cut it short and try to remember yet some interesting examples. How about this: the Valar (including Morgoth, and speaking of him, Ungoliant) address each other in the familiar singular form. Or, in the abovementioned case of Beregond and Pippin, in Czech they of course both use the singular - and interestingly enough, this actually brings another feeling to the reader's mind: the feeling that in fact, "properly" Pippin should address Beregond by the polite plural, but he does not because Beregond approached him as equal in the first place. Something similar happens with Bergil, who automatically addresses Pippin in singular - and somehow you get the feeling, at the moment Pippin says "I'm 29", that the boy should be shocked and would have liked to correct his mistake of not addressing Pippin in plural - addressing Pippin in singular also further implies (to the reader) that Bergil thought Pippin to be a child.

[Galadriel55]

Hurray for brother languages!

Originally Posted by Legate

Otherwise, the Hobbits tend to address other people by the polite plural, and for example when they first meet Strider, they call him that way.

I haven't thought of that. They do in the Russian translation as well, and somewhere along the conversation Strider calls Frodo ty, and then explains that he is used to that form. After that, they address each other familiarly.

And that reminds me - Butterbur and Nob use the formal as well in my translation.

Originally Posted by Legate

In Czech, you could theoretically use the singular form in derogatory sense (as the W-K or even Éowyn towards him might be assumed to do), to someone whom you actually should address by the polite plural, but you decide not to in order to mock him. It brings to mind some 17-century colonialist guy addressing primitive natives in singular.

That's interresting. As far as I know, the polite plural is relatively modern in history terms. Only a couple hundred years. The earlier Zhars, and before them - princes, were always called ty. So for me, when I see Theoden, Elrond, Denethor, and other rulers being called ty, I think "ancient".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I haven't thought of that. They do in the Russian translation as well, and somewhere along the conversation Strider calls Frodo ty, and then explains that he is used to that form. After that, they address each other familiarly.

Wait, do you actually say that they added such a thing into the book?

And that reminds me - Butterbur and Nob use the formal as well in my translation.

Indeed they do so in Czech as well, I guess that's the polite manner of the businessmen, being polite to your customers.

That's interresting. As far as I know, the polite plural is relatively modern in history terms. Only a couple hundred years. The earlier Zhars, and before them - princes, were always called ty. So for me, when I see Theoden, Elrond, Denethor, and other rulers being called ty, I think "ancient".

That's true, the polite plural is a rather modern invention in general. But now that I think of that, in Czech, calling nobles "ty" probably happens mostly only in fairytales, and in the few old sagas we have (or rather I am thinking of the one collection of old sagas which was written down in the 19th century), otherwise, an average person does not get to read things where a king is called "ty", so it sounds probably even much less natural than in many other languages, simply because of the lack of old sources.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Wait, do you actually say that they added such a thing into the book?

Yep. I don't remember exactly when he says it, but Aragorn says something to Frodo, and then adds: "I will call you ty, and call me likewise. We* do not speak differently." And Frodo answers: "Speak as you are used to."

...Or something to that effect.

It just sounds terribly weird if two unknown adults begin with calling each other vy and go to ty in a matter of mintes. However, it is a common thing to say "call me ty" to someone whom you are talking to, one of the reasons being to befriend them or make them feel comfortable.

The most interesting thing that I just realised is that in my translation, only the hobbits ever use "vy". I do not remember anyone else saying it. This would sound rather weird if it was in English, but I must say it adds a certain charm to the Shire.



*We meaning his, er, circle of friends (as assumed upon rereading, the Rangers), not him and Frodo

[Galadriel55]

I came across another quote that I don't believe was mentioned here before:

Then Glaurung stirred for the last time ere he died, and he spoke with his last breath, saying: "Hail Nienor, daughter of Hurin. We meet again ere the end. I give thee joy that thou hast found thy brother at last. And now thou shalt know him: a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse unto his kin, Turin son of Hurin! But the worst of all his deeds thou shalt feel in thyself."

~Of Turin Turambar, The Sil, as well as The Death of Glaurung, COH.

Glaurung could easily be talking down to Nienor, like he did before to Turin. After all, he knows that he dies victorius: he succeeded in demolishing the family. Or, maybe, he's being sarcastic and addressing Nienor like a friend and equal. Or maybe he forsees that they are equal by their death. It's a funny thing how they all died in basically the same place, Glaurung, Nienor, Turin, and Gurthang. And later Morwen.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It's a funny thing how they all died in basically the same place, Glaurung, Nienor, Turin, and Gurthang. And later Morwen.

Funnily enough, I don't find it all that strange. I would have found it more intriguing if they had died in places that were somehow relevant to their births or later lives.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Funnily enough, I don't find it all that strange. I would have found it more intriguing if they had died in places that were somehow relevant to their births or later lives.

No, I don't find it strange that they all came together upon death. It's what they've been trying to do all life - find each other. So that place is relevant to their lives.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

No, I don't find it strange that they all came together upon death. It's what they've been trying to do all life - find each other. So that place is relevant to their lives.

You do have a point there. I wonder, though, why Glaurung should be with them.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

You do have a point there. I wonder, though, why Glaurung should be with them.

Because it is through him that Morgoth externally* "messed" with them for the most part.

*I think of the curse more as an "internal" thing, and dragons and orcs and such "external"

[Eönwë]

I only just saw this thread, and I have to say that it's just added a whole new dimension to my reading of Tolkien, I'll have to watch out for it on my next reading of LOTR.

Originally Posted by The Might

FormLooking at the Silmarillion it is interesting to note that "thee" and "thine" are mostly used by Eru and by the Valar. It makes sense since the Valar and Eru were close to one another.

Also, in the list that you gave, except for Aule to Eru, each quote has someone talking to an inferior being. Not that it's an insult, but it could be more like the "treating them as a child" usage that was mentioned earlier. Obviously the Aule-Eru one is familiarity, he since he responds in kind, and it may be the same with all of them, but it could be both as well, and in the case of Ulmo to Turgon and the messenger of Manwe to Feanor, there is a definite feeling of the former of each being of a higher status (and in the second case, being the representative of someone of a higher status), so there might be some of the feeling of natural superiority there, not meant as an insult, but just the way it is.

[Galadriel55]

When reading the UT I noticed that Ulmo and Tuor talk familiarly to each other. I wouldn't have found it unusual for Ulmo, but Tuor replies in the same fashion! It sounds even more out of place when combined with "Lord":

And what wouldst thou of me, Lord, if I come now to Turgon?

~Tuor, Of Tuor and his Comming to Gondolin, UT

If I haven't known about this thread, I would probably gloss over this instance.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Good catch, G55! This is indeed an interesting example of the familiar usage. My impression here is that this is the conversation between a god and his follower, which is intimate and highy personal. Tuor's frequent use of "Lord" in this dialogue intensifies that impression. These are no equals conversing casually. Ulmo is clearly revered by Tuor.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Good catch, G55! This is indeed an interesting example of the familiar usage. My impression here is that this is the conversation between a god and his follower, which is intimate and highy personal. Tuor's frequent use of "Lord" in this dialogue intensifies that impression. These are no equals conversing casually. Ulmo is clearly revered by Tuor.

I would think about it that way, too. See the same thing above for the praise to Elbereth: it is effectively a prayer. And it is usual for prayer to be intimate, using familiar form, it is a "dialogue with the divine power", only in this case, it is face-to-face, but otherwise the same.

[morwen edhelwen]

Bit of thread drift; but, Estelyn, are you German by citizenship/nationality, or do you just live in Germany? As for the "thee" and 'thou", I always thought it was meant to signify, as you said:
1.authority(familiarity, I especially remember Shakespeare's use of it in Romeo and Juliet, from studying it in English class and other plays, as part of insults and in conversations between masters and servants. I think the idea here (but I am not an expert, just what I think) is, or was, that if "you in general" are in authority over another person, you can be 'familiar" in a way to them, as in the days when thou and thee were in common use, social circles were tight and the rich were (just assuming) more secure in the thought that their servants wouldn't reveal any of the masters' secrets.

People (in general) love to talk about others, especially if those others are seen as "better" in some way.

2. familiarity, between close friends and family members. I think Tolkien is using both senses(i haven't looked at the book in a long time as I don't know where my family's copy went)

[Elmo]

Andreth says to Finrod in the Athrabeth: "But say not thou to me, for so he once did!" Which implies she is not comfortable with the reminder of the closeness that she had to Aegnor which Finrod reminds her of, ( or she thought Finrod was patronising her!)

By the way, what a great piece of writing the Athrabeth is!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Morwen, I'm of German background, though not born in Germany nor a citizen, but I live here permanently. It's complicated...

Yes, you basically have the two main usages of "thee" and "thou", perhaps with the addition of the religious usage, which we find in passages of Tolkien's work as well.

Elmo, that's a great find! I haven't read the Athrabeth in quite a while, so I didn't remember that.

[Guinevere]

How could I have missed this great thread?! Yes, I know, it’s my own fault; I have been shamefully neglecting the Downs for much too long!

I found one more example of the use of "thou" in the LotR: Faramir, recalling his encounter with Boromir’s funeral boat :

"Boromir! Where is thy horn? Whither goest thou? O Boromir!"

This indicates the closeness of the brothers, and it has this archaic word order "Whither goest thou" (Old English seems to have been closer to German than modern English)

Before reading Tolkien, I had met these forms only in Shakespeare and the Bible. The quotations where thee and thou are used have a special impact on me, they always have the effect of "other time".

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

And yes, I too am now curious as to what Krege did with the new translation - I may have to pick it up from the library to compare. I've attempted to avoid that till now!

Since we have the new (Krege) translation in the house, I will go and see if and how it differs from the old one, using the examples Pitchwife mentioned.

[Guinevere]

In the Shire, Krege uses “Sie” instead of “Ihr”, which makes it sound more modern.
The hobbits mostly call each other „Du“, but then they mostly are friends or family. In the conversations in the „Ivybush“ a strange hobbit is addressed as „Sie“. The gaffer calls the miller „du, Sandigmann“ (but without „Herr“!)

The Sackville-Bagginses call Merry and Frodo „Sie“ („Sie sind kein Beutlin- Sie… Sie sind ein Brandybock!“) (in the old translation it’s “Du”)

Sam calls Frodo „Du“ and “Herr Frodo”, and sometimes “Du,Chef!” (Grrrr!) Gandalf he addresses in the beginning „Sie, Herr Gandalf“, later „Du, Herr Gandalf“, and finally Du Gandalf.

Farmer Maggot calls Frodo „Du, Herr Frodo“, but the Nazgul he tells „Verschwinden Sie!“
Mr Butterbur also calls the hobbits „Sie“ (and vice versa)

Strider and the hobbits also call each other „Sie“ until his declaration that he is Aragorn, and will give his live to save them. Thereafter they call each other Du. (in the old translation “Ihr” changes to “Du” a bit later, on the way to weathertop.)

In the Council of Elrond, Frodo calls Elrond “Du” (.Everyone is called „Du“, as far as I can see.. (Du, Meister Elrond)
Aragorn and Boromir call each other “Du” from the start. (In the Carroux translation it’s “Ihr”.) Even Sam says“Du“ to Elrond (“Aber du willst ihn doch nicht etwa allein losschicken, Meister?”)!!

Galadriel is called „Du“ by Frodo and also by Sam! ("Ihr" in the old translation)

Eomer and Aragorn say “Du” to each other. (In the old translation: "ihr")
But Théoden, as befits a king of old, is called “Ihr” by Gandalf, Eomer and everyone. (Also by Merry) (Théoden, on the other hand, calls Gandalf “Du”) (In the old translation Théoden calls Gandalf "Ihr")

At the first meeting with Faramir, Sam calls him “Sie”(!), and Frodo “Ihr”, but not for long. After the episode with the Mumak, both call him “Du” (and vice versa). (Old transl: both Frodo and Sam call Faramir "Ihr", Faramir calls Frodo "Ihr", but Sam "Du")

Gandalf calls Denethor “Ihr”, Denethor calls him “Du, Mithrandir”, but Pippin says “Sie” to Denethor (!) and he also says ”Sie” to Beregond, but only initially, after their snack on the walls, they have become friends and call each other “Du”. (Old translation: Gandalf and Pippin call Denethor "Ihr", Denethor calls Gandalf "Ihr" and Pippin "Du". Pippin and Beregond call each other "Ihr" the whole time.)

Aragorn and Eowyn call each other “Du” right from the start! So here there is no difference and hence no special significance of the passages where in the original “Thou” is used. (old translation:"Ihr", but "Du" in the passages where "Thou" is used)

Faramir and Eowyn also call each other “Du” right from the start. (old transation: "Ihr" the whole time)

[Galadriel55]

Guinevere, I can't rep you again yet, but such a detailed review deserves a note! Thanks for posting the differences!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What G55 said - thanks for all that research, Guinevere!

[Findegil]

It is probably obvious for the Germans here at the downs, but for sure not for all members: German has preserved both familiar singular and polite plural up to now. But in daily speech polite plural is more and more neglected. That means modern English lost the familiar form while German is on the way to loss the polite form.
In translating an English text which uses the (now) obsolete and archaic familiar form you must choose between the archaism (which would be transported by the use of the German polite plural) and the familiarity of the characters (which is transported by the familiar singular). That is why Carroux and Krege came in some cases to different solutions.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Guinevere]

Well, what is interesting is that beside the familiar "Du" Carroux used only "Ihr" - the archaic form of polite address; wheras Krege uses both "Ihr" and "Sie" - apparently to distinguish between the 20th century hobbits of the Shire and the archaic world of Middle-Earth. (But he exaggerates the modernizing of the Shire language, and I really prefer the old translation!)

Btw, "Ihr" as a polite address is still in use today in the Swiss dialect of Kanton Bern. Also, in 19th century literature it has not quite the same connotation as "Sie" - it's somehow between "Du" and "Sie" ( e.g. a landlord calls the cook "Ihr", but the guest "Sie". The cook calls the landlord "Sie".) But in feudal times apparently "Ihr" was common , even among family members of the nobility.

In the 17th and 18th century there was even more social distinction in pronominal address in the German language: servants were called "Er" and "Sie" ( 3rd person singular) (eg: Komm Er! Bring Er!) And children in upper class families called their parents "Sie" (as for example Mozart in the letters to his father)

Complicated business!! it's so much easier calling everybody "You"!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Well, what is interesting is that beside the familiar "Du" Carroux used only "Ihr" - the archaic form of polite address; wheras Krege uses both "Ihr" and "Sie" - apparently to distinguish between the 20th century hobbits of the Shire and the archaic world of Middle-Earth.

I get his motive for that to some degree, but still, this sounds horribly wrong to me in a fantasy setting. I think it would be palatable in an urban fantasy set in modern times, but in Tolkien, yuck.

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Btw, "Ihr" as a polite address is still in use today in the Swiss dialect of Kanton Bern.

Not only there. I vividly remember my mother addressing her sister's elderly mother-in-law as "Ihr" in my early childhood (around 1970), because it struck me as archaic even then - but then, that was probably a rural as well as dialectal usage.

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Complicated business!! it's so much easier calling everybody "You"!

But so much less fun with interlingual jokes. Wasn't it our former Bundespräsident Heinrich Lübke who addressed a visiting anglophone statesman with the immortal words "You can say you to me"?

[Morthoron]

A brief note. I'm not sure how it is in translations, but in the English version you'll notice that the Shire and Bree folk are the only ones who use contractions in their dialogue. The high and mighty, The Dunedain, Elves of Rivendell and Lothlorien, and Gondorions such as Denethor and Faramir never use contractions. Ever.

Aint that somethin'?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

A brief note. I'm not sure how it is in translations, but in the English version you'll notice that the Shire and Bree folk are the only ones who use contractions in their dialogue. The high and mighty, The Dunedain, Elves of Rivendell and Lothlorien, and Gondorions such as Denethor and Faramir never use contractions. Ever.

Aint that somethin'?

For certain. I mean, that's how I always understood the "system" of it. I would assume most of the translations reflect it in some way, even though not all languages use the same tools to make it work that way. But there are some "effects" in the language which reflect the same thing: the "casual" manner of speech as opposed to the "high and cultivated" one. For instance, in the Czech translation, the hobbits/Breelanders (and Bergil!) speak in a sort of "casual" or "spoken" manner (as opposed to "written" - the way people don't normally speak when they actually speak, only in official speeches, but in literature you usually write that way and not in the "spoken" manner - I think the comparison to contractions in English fits quite well enough).

[Galadriel55]

The Russian translation also differentiates between the "simple" hobbit/Bree/Bergil speech and the "noble" speech. Sometimes there are ungramatical sentences (much oftener, negatives, etc) that make it sound hobbit. Also, the use of words that people like Denethor would NEVER use, because they are just unfitting for such a person. Bergil speaks speaks gramatically correctly, but his vocabulary is a child's vocabulary. There is one phrase that jumped out at me in his speech when I compared the translation to the original: when he says that Beregond wants to send him away with the maidens. The Russian translation uses a word that is more like "lasses"*. In the translation it gives Bergil a Tom-Sawyer-ish attitude. But in the original it makes him sound like a child who values honour (or has parents that value it).

*The word is "devchonki", the (slightly offensive out of context) variation of "devochki"=girls. The reason the translator chose the first one is to give Bergil that boyish "scorn-the-girls" attitude that makes him look his age, or possibly a bit younger. It's hard to find a word for "maiden" that would mean girls of his own age, and not older, but I suppose the translation could have gone with the more respectful second word. But that way it doesn't give Bergil the boyish attitude, and it doesn't give him the appearance of someone who values honour.

It's confusing. It's like there are two Bergils.

[Guinevere]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

A brief note. I'm not sure how it is in translations, but in the English version you'll notice that the Shire and Bree folk are the only ones who use contractions in their dialogue. The high and mighty, The Dunedain, Elves of Rivendell and Lothlorien, and Gondorions such as Denethor and Faramir never use contractions. Ever.
Aint that somethin'?

I know, these differences in style make it much easier to find the speaker of a quote in "Palantir of Fortune"
And I guess it's one of the things I love so much about Tolkien's language.

Recently there was another discussion on style here As you can see I didn't even know the term contraction until now.

The fact that the hobbits use these contractions makes their speech sound more modern, and that's what Krege (the translator of the new German translation) tried to achieve.

[Guinevere]

When reading "The Children of Húrin" I noticed that Christopher Tolkien had changed all the "thou"s to "you"! (in the conversations with Glaurung and Gurthang) Why do you think he did that?
Personally I (and my sons) relished thosed quotes from the Silmarillion (e.g. "die now and the darkness have thee!!")

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

When reading "The Children of Húrin" I noticed that Christopher Tolkien had changed all the "thou"s to "you"! (in the conversations with Glaurung and Gurthang) Why do you think he did that?
Personally I (and my sons) relished thosed quotes from the Silmarillion (e.g. "die now and the darkness have thee!!")

Perhaps it was in the (unnecessary, to me at least) interest of "modernisation". though that's a mere guess.

I agree that the "archaic" language is in fact a point in favour of the UT and Silm versions.