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Old 10-16-2004, 11:13 AM   #601
Imladris
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I'll try to be on...however I have to go shoe shopping today (been suffering blisters for quite a while) and...it all depends on how long that takes.

*really doesn't want to go shoe shopping today*
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Old 10-16-2004, 06:07 PM   #602
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lmp== on second second thought-- YIM me, I have an idea about a way that Tharonwe can really corner Amroth.
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Old 10-16-2004, 09:04 PM   #603
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Hey LMP, would it be okay for Gwyll to dream of Mithrellas? If so, what kind of dream would you need?

I was thinking that Gwyll could sense her loneliness too, but that's just me.
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Old 10-17-2004, 06:36 PM   #604
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Tolkien Group Post

Okay, our Group Post is going to undergo major revision. There's a certain collaborative vigor that goes with creating something real-time. But you have to have the time, and it has to be undistracted! - which my time wasn't. Also, I discovered that we really need to collaborate on the villain as well as the characters and plot. Whereas it's great fun to surprise the group, it only works if the surprises are thought out well enough, and that (oops) didn't quite happen.

For one thing, I didn't have Tharonwe thinking Elvishly enough, nor craftily enough, for that matter. He would have known that he would be at too big a disadvantage with 3 Elves against 1, in terms of both osanwe, and arrows, to let them get within shooting or speaking range. So Tharonwe is not going to let the Party get close enough to him to shoot or talk. Any "bargaining' will be done via long distance (out of sight) osanwe. Tharonwe and his merlocks are therefore on the other side of much muck and mire and water, out of sight.

That of course directly affects some of what has been written in the Group Post.

Tharonwe will "call up" Mellondu, and Raefindan and Ravion both will protest Amroth's indifference to Mellonin, whose suffering at the hands of Tharwone, will be communicated to all via osanwe, unless Amroth and the Elves attempt to protect the humans' minds from it (but why would they?).

The only damage to Mellonin will be five tiny muscles extracted carefully from her left cheek, and fed one each to the five merlocks. I don't know exactly what that would look like after it was healed, but let's just assume that Mellonin's face sags on the left side, and her smiles are all one sided only - but not her frowns.

Gwyllion and Aeron will be darted, and Gwyllion taken captive yet again!

Leafa will be the next bargaining chip after Mellonin. Her upper arm bone (whatever it's called) will be broken. She will faint (after being woken up), but will not be allowed to die.

Gwyllion's neck will be slit. This should be about where Amroth agrees to stop pursuing his quest, after much persuasion from the Elves and the humans, who swear oaths to continue the quest FOR him, without telling Tharonwe, and their minds closed to him.

Bellyn will have to live with survivor guilt.

The women will be found lying at the edge of the swamp the next morning, including the body of Gwyllion.

The Party will, of course, be more committed than ever to the quest, and will also do all they can to bring Tharonwe into captivity before they pursue the quest any further, so as to end his mischief (which, of course, will not end - it'll just be right in their midst, and limited by his bonds).

Oh. Ædegard and Jorje Tirril will still be missing. It will be up to the members of the party what to do about them. I know what Raefindan will think, and probably Leafa, I'm guessing.

How does that work?

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Old 10-17-2004, 06:59 PM   #605
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It works great....what will happen to Aeron when Gwyllion is darted?
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Old 10-17-2004, 07:04 PM   #606
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Silmaril

My thought is that he would be found leaning on the neck of his horse, which would be walking aimlessly along the swamp path, and thus found by the party on their way back out of the swamp. (sorry to have him stuck with them yet again!)
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Old 10-17-2004, 07:19 PM   #607
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Quote:
This should be about where Amroth agrees to stop pursuing his quest, after much persuasion from the Elves and the humans, who swear oaths to continue the quest FOR him, without telling Tharonwe, and their minds closed to him.
This is where I don't get it.

Put yourself in Amroth's position. If someone who was
*keeping you from your spouse and
*mentally tormenting your spouse,
also killed someone you had known for 2 days,
would you let the tormentor convince you to stop looking for your spouse?

Amroth strikes me as the type who would not. "If another does evil, why would I let them bind me? They will answer for their evil, but I will also answer if I fail to pursue good." He won't give up due to outside pressure **especially** from a competitor.

From Amroth's perspective, what's Tharonwe's worst threat? He'll kill Nimrodel? THen she ends up in the Halls of Mandos -- and Amroth wins.

In addition to the hurdle of Amroth's iron attitude-- technically, for Amroth to abandon his quest, would mean for him to give up and go home, since if he's still out riding looking for her, he's still on the quest. That would kind of gut the story? If I'm not seeing it your way, please clarify.

Options:

1. If Tharonwe can lie fast and hard enough, then under his influence, Mellondu can deny Amroth control. When NImrodel rejected Amroth, Amroth sank voluntarily; this time, Mellondu can sink him. Mellondu has voluntarily given him control; Tharonwe can convince Mellondu to take it back, and treat Amroth like a guest again. Mellondu can refuse Amroth permission to speak or control him anymore, especially if he's going to get Mellondu's friends cut up. Taitheneb and Erebemlin (and other interested parties) can swear to continue Amroth's quest even though Mellondu won't let Amroth surface or assert himself. That I can believe. (Might make for interesting character development on an otherwise very passive Mellondu.)

2. Amroth would accept a rejection/ repudiation from Nimrodel herself (although he would suspect taht it comes from Tharonwe, and therefore doubt it mightily. Fool me once...) Nimrodel can reiterate her rejection of Amroth, though what this gains (since she already has done this once, and he no longer believes it) I'm not sure.

3. General mutiny on the part of the men makes some sense. But then there are those pesky elves sticking up for Amroth. And Tharonwe still wouldnt' get his promise.

I really prefer Option 1 and 3. Mellondu surfaces, promising that he won't let Amroth put his own sisters' life at risk again. HOwever, even Mellondu will have a hard time agreeing not to pursue Nimrodel-- remember he likes her now. But perhaps Tharonwe won't know, notice, or care. If his mind is closed, is this enough?

This sets up conflict between Amroth & Mellondu, increases tension within the group, and will weaken Amroth / Mellondu physically.
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Old 10-18-2004, 11:09 AM   #608
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Here's what no longer works, from the game thread... Since posting has stalled, I figured I'd leave it here... not sure what else to do with it.

******

The three elves and Ravion had nocked arrows and ready bows; Echo and the other horses slowed to a trot; ahead of them, the three figures had stopped. One was an Elf, another a small, skinny, hairless man, and Mellonin, asleep. The Elf stood on a little hillock.

Amroth glanced at Raefindan. "This is the one you seek?"

"Yes!" said Raefindan.

The elf spoke. "Come no closer, if you value the life of this maiden!"

Amroth's lips tightened; Echo's head dropped, and the group halted.

"Ah," said Tharonwe, "the resemblance is remarkable."

Amroth said nothing. Erebemlin spoke. "Release the captive."

Amroth waited, his eyes cold and dark.

"I do not think you are in any position to give me orders, Lorien Elf." Tharonwe raised a sharp knife to Mellonin's face. The elvish bows tightened.

The little man licked his lips hungrily.

"You have never taken orders, faithless one. For that you shall answer, " said Erebemlin.

"Do you think I jest?" Tharonwe asked, his mouth twisted in anger. "You will wake up now, maiden," said Tharonwe. Mellonin's eyes blinked open. "If, Amroth, or Mellondu, maybe I should call you, you do not swear to end your quest, this woman's pain is caused by you." The short ugly man held Mellonin in a firm grip, her hands behind her back.

Amroth raised an eyebrow. “So you say, false one, but I do not hold the knife. Your cruelty is your own. The evil you do is yours.”

"You call it evil, I call it necessity. You shall not have Nimrodel. She is mine!"

Raefindan saw three heads moving through the water toward Tharonwe. Taitheneb and Erebemlin shifted their aim to the swimmers.

“I will not cease my quest. And Nimrodel shall never be yours, knave.” Amroth bent his will on the dark elf-'s hand, and his arm began to shake.

"You cannot overwhelm me, Amroth."

“Nor you defeat me, dark one.”

The three elves bent their will against the dark elf, and he quailed slightly, but recovered.

"Release the girl,” said Erebemlin.

"My blade will cut poorly then, and that will be to your blame." Tharonwe's shaking knife cut Mellonin's face. The blade went deep. Mellonin screamed.

A cry came from him the dark elf too, as Erebemlin's arrow pierced his shoulder. The dark elf's arm jerked, and more blood flowed down Mellonin’s face.

Taitheneb's arrow flew into the dark elf's throat.

“Stop!” cried Amroth. “Do not kill him! Take him captive!”

The dark elf, blood trickling from his throat, sliced one more time at Mellonin before the knife fell from his hand. But the water around him swirled, and strange shapes came out of the water.
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Old 10-18-2004, 12:23 PM   #609
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Tolkien

I have filled in my save...I hope Gwyllion's dream is all right?
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Old 10-18-2004, 05:45 PM   #610
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Okay, you've outlined the character of Amroth quite well. Let me try Tharonwe.

Tharonwe is justified in his own mind, to take the actions he takes, because he is convinced that he has been wronged. He does not see himself as evil, but as doing what is necessary since middle earth does not converge to bring about that which he considers to be just and fair: namely, Nimrodel to him, and Amroth out of the picture.

He considers all non-Elvish life-forms to be inferior, and values them little; nevertheless, he is aware that Amroth does not see other life-forms this way, and counts on him to care what happens to humans, horses, and even dogs. He will test Amroth in this way, and expects that Amroth's warm heart will keep him from allowing Tharonwe to do much harm - because Tharonwe does not care to do much harm, only what is necessary to achieve the necessary outcome. Believe it or not, when and if Amroth refuses to bend in the face of Mellonin's defacing, Leafa's injury, and Gwyllion's death, Tharonwe will believe that Amroth is ignoble, and does not deserve Nimrodel, if he ever did.

Let me re-iterate: Tharonwe does not do violence or lie any more than seems necessary.

All that having been said, Option 1 seems workable, but not in terms of Tharonwe lying fast and hard enough; rather, seeing himself as actually more noble than Amroth, because Amroth does not do what must be done in the face of necessity, as does Tharonwe. Amroth is unreasonable and arrogant and selfish, in Tharonwe's lights, to allow the women to be victimized all for the sake of getting Nimrodel back; and therefore, Tharonwe will feel all the more justified in "punishing" Amroth for his wrongfulness. And then he can think of calling up Mellondu, and breeding mutiny among the human men.

What do you think?
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Old 10-18-2004, 07:46 PM   #611
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"It's all flowers and butterflies with her..."

Sounds reasonably unreasonable to me! And quite realistic. Multiple-voiced ricocheting echoes of "You heartless cad, how could you...?"

Immy, I like the dream! Nicely done, and very Gwyllish! Skipping amid the flowers...

Now for one of those annoying details-- and entirely my fault. I am afraid that I've got Nimrodel's hair color wrong... I keep saying "shadowy", a la Luthien, but she was Silvan, and their hair is gold. "As sun upon the golden boughs of Lorien the fair." Get a clue, Helen, it's *right there* in the song...
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Old 10-18-2004, 08:36 PM   #612
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Edited.
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Old 10-19-2004, 01:41 PM   #613
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1420!

lmp-- wow.
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Old 10-19-2004, 05:19 PM   #614
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darted, drugged and dreaming-- drat

HI Folks,

The good news is that yesterday I finally went to the doctor, and they gave me plenty of drugs. The bad news is-- these antibiotics are whupping my butt. I barely had enough oomph to fill the dishwasher (I didn't cook) and I am headed for bed.

Drat that swamp-elf and his sleepydarts, anyway.



Anyhow-- post away. Please! Lmp has gotten some tremendous momentum going. lmp, if you'd like, you can post away, now that you know where Amroth is coming from-- he's been dead, so he fears it less (for himself and others) than perhaps he should.

If you write anything that I consider Amrothian heresy, I'll bug you later & we can fix it. For now, have fun...

If you don't see me in a couple more days, somebody send Erebemlin & Taitheneb after me. Or at least Jorje.
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Old 10-19-2004, 06:45 PM   #615
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1420!

Thanks for the kind words about my posting, Helen. I'll try to steer clear of Amrothian heresy, but not too, too hard. Gotta have something to get you going about, don't we?

But shoot, I ended where I did in order to give you a good reaction point, because even though I know what you want regarding Mellondu's and Amroth's same-body tension, nobody but nobody writes it better than you. So phooey - - - and HALP! eek

Sorry about the darts and sleep and general dragged down-ness.

And friends - - - as much as I love moving the story, I also love not being the only one to do it! Post away! Be creative! Be daring! Try new things that may seem really daring - let the muse take you! But please, post....

...... or I may have to alliterate about how you prolixate;

or I could perpetuate and elucidate
the means by which I shall exonerate
the swamp elf's pate from the eight,
which will necessitate and prevaricate
such significated sensate abjectated,
frivolated, first mated, predated,
Tolkienated (yee ha! it's innate!) Hobbit plates
from noosbury stroodle to mushroom noodle.
et cetera et cetera et cetara ra ra ra!

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Old 10-20-2004, 04:48 AM   #616
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Jorje, you da MUTT.

Immy-- good stuff.
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Old 10-20-2004, 01:53 PM   #617
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Tolkien Minor revision needed...

Glad to see you posting, Orual!

Just one little thing to fix: Tharonwe and Mellonin (and merlocks) can only be seen in the minds' eyes of all the characters - he has not presented himself within range of voice or arrow.
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Old 10-20-2004, 01:56 PM   #618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmp
But shoot, I ended where I did in order to give you a good reaction point
Well alrighty then. I'll take a stab at it.... especially since Ravion is now good and mad.
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Old 10-20-2004, 05:04 PM   #619
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Tolkien

I was reading through old posts and I came across this paragraph from post 470

Quote:
Nearby stood a slender darkhaired woman, and she held goose-feathers in her hands, reaching to him, beckoning him. "Fly to me, my Dark-love; return to me. Come back to me." She held out the feathers. Amroth reached for her, for the feathers.
Is this Nimrodel? Who is Dark-love (I can only think that it is Tharonwe but that seems a bit preposterous for me to assume so)? Or...is this something to be revealed later on?

Forgive my ignorance.
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Old 10-20-2004, 08:27 PM   #620
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Tolkien Woohoo, whatta team!

I'm loving all these posts! Alak, welcome back! Aylwen, lovely dream-weaving, and you too, Immy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imladris

Is this Nimrodel? Who is Dark-love
The darkhaired woman is Mellonin ("LightLove"); and she is reaching out to Mellondu ("Darklove.") Lightlove and Darklove, or Mellonin and Mellondu, were their childhood nicknames which stuck, since they didn't feel comfortable with Finduilas and Fingon.

However, it is part of the 'tapestry-weaving' because the emotions are simliar, and Mellondu relates to Amroth's search. SO to Amroth, it has a Nimrodel-ish feeing to it (although, again, I was befuddled about Nimrodel's hair color, so if I had it to do over again, I would have started her out with some sort of golden halo... maybe the sun reflecting off of the water behind her giving her hair a golden appearance, or something... maybe I'll edit that...)

This would be the moment which Amroth would remember Mellonin from, and I should have picked up on it... would have been a nice touch. I just forgot. Wonder if I can tuck it in someplace.
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Old 10-20-2004, 08:29 PM   #621
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Tolkien

Whoa, I got that completely off base didn't I...

I also forgot that Mellonin and Mellondu weren't their real names...

*must learn to research before asking*

Sorry...and thanks.
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Old 10-20-2004, 10:09 PM   #622
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Done and done! Thanks for the heads-up...I need to watch my details.
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Old 10-21-2004, 03:59 AM   #623
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About Nimrodel and Mithrellas--

Quote:
For long years they dwell there, til they forget their names and take names given them by the dead.
Does this mean that they would not know their names in the dreams had by Bella and Gwyll?

Also...would Nimrodel respond to Bella if she spoke to her? I know it's just a dream, but I wanted to make sure...

Off to Southwestern day (my school is weird)!

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Old 10-21-2004, 02:19 PM   #624
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Pipe

stunning writing, my friends!

I notice nobody seems ready to put words in Raefindan's mouth, or thoughts in his head. I guess I better get going on that myself....
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Old 10-21-2004, 03:22 PM   #625
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Oh, Raefindan the noble! That does change things. At least it shakes things loose so there is a way to capture Tharonwe. I hope.

But lmp! His hand! Ædegard's hand?

Oh, my gosh.

Oh, my gosh, that is so gross.

*queasily goes to find some distracting and more pleasant thread before returning to this one*
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Old 10-21-2004, 04:27 PM   #626
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Quote:
His hand! Ædegard's hand?

Oh, my gosh.

Oh, my gosh, that is so gross.
Eek!

Oh...my...gosh...

*hyperventilates*

Whoa. His hand! What will Leafa think?

Oh, Nethwador is so sweet.

To actually have a point to this: GREAT POSTS YOU GUYS!

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Old 10-21-2004, 06:09 PM   #627
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Ædegard's hand! Oh my, the poor lad!

And now I've got to work out exactly how Leafa will react to it. I can't even imagine her 'snubbing' Ædegard because of it, but surely she will feel some aversion... not towards him, but towards what has happened to him, which might make her nervous about him. I have to think this out just a little.

Leafa's too sweet, meek, and loving to let something like that bother her for a long time, so it's going to be Freckles and the Angel in the long run, anyway, and more than likely in the short run.
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Old 10-21-2004, 06:43 PM   #628
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Freckles and the Angel
Now it's my turn to say.... "Ruh??"
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Old 10-22-2004, 01:16 PM   #629
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lmp and Orual-- I had a brainstorm, and put it up. We can leapfrog or edit or whatever is necessary...

Golly, I can hardly wait to find out what happens. Post, I say! Post!

ps. My neice-to-be won today in court. (!!!!!) There is a 30-day appeal period, and they expect an appeal, but hopes are high that the appeal will be denied (Please, God) and that my niece will be home for Christmas-- or close.

WOOT WOOT WOOT WOOT WOOT WOOT !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-22-2004, 06:28 PM   #630
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Helen, thank God for that! I won't cease in praying!

Freckles and the Angel... oh, 'tis one of the sweetest stories I've heard, for sure. Go here. I found out recently that the copyright had expired so legally this book at least is online. Alas, no Keeper of the Bees.

There's been lovely posting from all sides. I feel only a quarter of a writer at the moment and 75% an intrigued, thrilled, excited reader.
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Old 10-23-2004, 08:28 PM   #631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nurumaiel
Helen, thank God for that! I won't cease in praying!

Freckles and the Angel... oh, 'tis one of the sweetest stories I've heard, for sure. Go here. I found out recently that the copyright had expired so legally this book at least is online. Alas, no Keeper of the Bees.

There's been lovely posting from all sides. I feel only a quarter of a writer at the moment and 75% an intrigued, thrilled, excited reader.
I haven't posted since this your last post, Nuru; and why, ye may be asking? It's the Freckles and the Angel have the blame of it. Faith, it's halfway through the book I am, and to set it aside for such a thing as sleep, why, tis more than a pity, it verges on outrage. Sleep! Instead of a story such as this? Indeed not, for I'd as soon feed my lunch to one of Freckles' great Black Chickens.
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Old 10-23-2004, 10:24 PM   #632
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Freckles Erchamion

Nuru--

Wow.

Whatta story.

Now I can go to sleep and dream of emeralds and singing lessons.
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Old 10-24-2004, 09:04 PM   #633
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Sting apology

Sorry for having mere dial-up - again! *grumble* I couldn't get on-line Friday morning to post into my save for Raefindan, and I'm sure it stymied some of you. For that I am most grievously sorry. And I'm quite amazed it let me on after 10 p.m. on any night. But it's cheap, so I put up with the inconveniences; not without a *grumble grumble*. Anyway, it's filled in now, and additional stuff is there to move that ol' plot forward yet again! yehaw!
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Old 10-24-2004, 09:42 PM   #634
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Hail, o bandwidth-bound yet faithful ally! (And welcome back, Ædegard Erchamion.)

Between Erebemlin, Taitheneb, and Ravion, if the merlocks get within bowshot, they are pincushions. Are they within bowshot?
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Old 10-24-2004, 11:13 PM   #635
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Tolkien

Is Gwyllion dead or just crippled? I wasn't sure because of:

Quote:
Mellonin and Leafa came into sight, frantically carrying Gwyllion between them, her arms hanging limp. Their faces were stained with tears
So...knocked our, or dead?
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Old 10-25-2004, 01:39 PM   #636
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Earlier today lmp sent me this but I was away all day.....

littlemanpoet (10/25/2004 6:00:13 AM): Hi Helen, just a quicky before work. I can't log onto barrowdowns from here, but if you want to post this up for me at discussions: the women are close, since the swamp path twists and turns. So the merlocks are within bowshot, but there are a lot of them. I'm figuring about 40. Here's the deal: Tharonwe had promised them that they would receive one of the maidens for food. But now he has promised all four in trade for Raefindan. The merlocks figure this out, and are about to revolt, but Tharonwe tells them that he will not stand in the way of their feasting. So they rush madly after the women. Lucky for Bellyn and company, the path is narrow and she has only had to fight off one or two at a time; the swamp muck slows merlocks down as much as it would a duck (or whatever).
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Old 10-25-2004, 06:01 PM   #637
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Would it be stupid to ask how exactly Bellyn got a knife?

-Aylwen

Edit: *feels stupid*

Sorry...Very tired = many edits and stupid questions.
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Old 10-25-2004, 06:46 PM   #638
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Tharonwe would have "woken up" any sleepers to send them back in exchange for Raefindan... Er, Roy Edwards.

I'm not sure about the knife -- unless Bella mugged Tharonwe and took it from him!
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Old 10-25-2004, 06:48 PM   #639
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I don't see why not! Tharonwe has agreed to let the ladies go in exchange for Raefindan-- but them Merlocks are still mighty hungry. So yeah-- have some fun!
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Old 10-25-2004, 07:47 PM   #640
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Pipe

Clarification on the knife: The lead merlock wrested it from Tharonwe, none too pleased with its Elven overlord; Tharonwe admittedly did not put up any resistance to having the knife removed from his possession. The merlocks have decided that since this last of the maidens (Gwyllion) was captured by them separately, that Tharonwe's order not to harm them (much) did not apply to this one, and they did not entirely curb their cannibalistic appetites. Still fearing potential wrath from Tharonwe, they started with extremities, which is why Gwyllion was missing anything below one knee (sorry). Anyway, this lead merlock, in his ire, plunges the knife into Gwyllion's chest, killing her instantly. Mellonin, in a momentary fit of instinctive, unthinking, and ferocious loyalty, forces her way to Gwyllion and grabs her, and races away from the merlocks. She takes the knife from Gwyllion's chest and hands it to Bellyn, ordering her to bring up the rear as Leafa and she carry Gwyllion away from the merlocks. Does that work? I hope so, because Mellonin seems to be the most assertive of the women; and as things have turned out, Bellyn the most - er - healthy. You might take this as an opportunity, Aylwen, for Bellyn to realize that there are things about her that she had no idea...... growth of character type stuff, or on the other hand, Bellyn could feel that this was quite out of her element, and turn to angsty, contemplative remenations on why she was left unmarred while the others suffered or died. 'nuff said, I hope....

oh, one last thing. If there are 40 merlocks and just 4 maidens, it must surely mean that even Bellyn does not come away unscathed, but the path is narrow and it's kind of like how Jackson portrayed the hand to hand combat on that parapet at Helm's Deep: only two can attack Bellyn at any one time, and they don't like that knife. She's taller than they are, and so can outrun them - but she keeps catching up to Leafa and Mellonin carrying Gwyllion, and must turn and face the pursueing merlocks again... and again..l. and again. So Bellyn should have claw marks on her arms, maybe her face, but that would be it. And the other maidens will have claw marks all over their faces, arms, and their legs (or what's left of them in the late Gwyllion's case).

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