Smile when you say that, Gimli! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Birdland · 11-27-2002, 06:46 PM

So, has anyone found a translation of the Dwarvish phrase that Gimli says to Haldir in Lothlorien? I watched the film with the English subtitles on, but there was no translation. All we really know is that Aragorn did not think it was very "courteous". (Though I doubt that he said anything bad enough to be censored at the Barrow Downs. )

Manwe Sulimo · 11-27-2002, 08:33 PM

How could Aragorn had known? Dwarves never taught their language to outsiders....all we know is "Baruk Khazâd! Kazâd ai-mênu!!"Of course, that is from the book....

11-27-2002, 09:09 PM

There is no translation for it! Check <A HREF="http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_elvish.htm#gimli" TARGET=_blank>this</A> out, that's a list of the Elvish/Black Speech/Dwarwish and so forth spoken in the movie. Gimli's remark means nothing, according to this list. And you're right, Manwë, Aragorn could never have known! That is a stupid move from PJ!

Orual · 11-27-2002, 09:41 PM

Oh, well, everyone's entitled a stupid move, even PJ, though it's a little surprising from a man of his perfectionistic standards. I'll be able to argue this better once I've seen the extended version...come FRIDAY!!! Yay! Eru bless my lovely friend who invited me over!~*~Orual~*~

Joy · 11-27-2002, 10:02 PM

I did wonder about that, but I considered Aragorn's reaction was more to the additude of Gimli, rather than what he said.

Birdland · 11-27-2002, 10:22 PM

Thank you Manwe and Morima. Since I'm not well versed on all of Tolkien's other works, I was not aware of exactly how many words are recorded in the Dwarf language by Tolkien. However; I respectfully suggest that neither do you, Morima. Here is a link with several more Dwarvish words and word fragments that have been recorded. <A HREF="http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/khuzdul.htm" TARGET=_blank>The Secret Tongue of the Dwarves</A> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>of course, that is from the book...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course, Manwe, We are talking about the film here. And NO film is ever "the book".But since P.J. went to the trouble and expense to employ Tolkien scholars and linquists to assist him in the writing of dialog which uses the good professor's languages, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and suggest that he probably worked closely with these people to get the proper "sound" of the Dwarf tongue, even if the words had no real meaning. Now why would he do this? Because it gives us a wonderful little scene with a wealth of background information concerning the characters. It shows us Gimli's irracibility and stubborness, (Haldir is this close to shooting the pesky dwarf, but Gimli is still mouthing off at him.) It establishes the difference between the races, not just in appearance, but in their languages. It also give us a quite a bit of insight into the character of Aragorn. By his "knowing" what Gimli is saying, it suggests that Aragorn a highly educated Man, (much more even than Haldir the Elf, since Haldir doesn't know what Gimli said - though he can probably guess). It also suggests that Aragorn has traveled widely and has had dealings with many different races.That's a lot of information to convey in a scene that only lasts maybe 10 seconds. And THAT'S good film-making! So even though you tell me that the actual "words" had no meaning, I'm still going to defend P.J.'s use of that scene, and I'm very glad he took the time and effort to put that moment back in the film.Oh, BTW: in the above article, it does give incidences where a select few Men and Elves were taught the Dwarf tongue. So it would be no stretch of the imagination to believe that Aragorn knew "Dwarvish". Who better than the heir of Isildur, and the future King of Gondor and Anor?[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

Manwe Sulimo · 11-27-2002, 10:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Yet in secert (a secret which unlike the Elves, they did not willingly unlock, even to their friends) they used their own strange tongue, changed little by the years; for it had become a tongue of lore rather than a cradle-speech, and they tended it and guarded it as a treasure of the past. Few of other race have succeeded in learning it. In this history it appears only in such place-names as Gimli reavealed to his companions; and is the battle-cry which he uttered in teh siege of teh Hornburg. That at least was not secret, and had been heard on many a field since the world was young. Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu! 'Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So some learned the language, but were never taught by the Dwarves themselves. Perhaps Aragorn did learn from Elrond or Celeborn; we'll probably never know.And I have no idea why I posted this...it should be in "Books".

Kalimac · 11-28-2002, 01:23 AM

I liked the scene, personally; it certainly showed that Gimli was less than thrilled about Haldir's "Welcome to Lorien" especially as it related to singling him out. The filmmakers had comparatively little time in which to get Gimli's displeasure across, and falling into one's native language is a pretty universal and clear sign of stress. Besides, it makes the contrast with his attitude after Galadriel's gifts much sharper.As for the language - if it were Elvish, or a similar language on which Tolkien had left real notes, I'd say that the filmmakers should have taken the trouble to use the real thing. But if you look at the information on Dwarvish, there really isn't much there, and what there is mostly refers to geography, so unless you want to have Gimli describing the locations of Zirakzigil and Khazad-Dum, you're going to have to make something up.

Fleance Stoneycroft · 11-28-2002, 04:35 AM

I think the scene is funny, too. But it is unfortunate it is no real Dwarvish. And I would like to hear more of the Black Speech in the next films. This interests me most. <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/the_dark_wizard_of_orthanc/sauron.html" TARGET=_blank>Horror and LotR</A> PS: My tenth post!!

Melephelwen · 12-02-2002, 09:37 AM

I think Aragorn's comment was on the fact that Gimli were, as already mentioned, very close to get if not shot, then at least kicked far out of Lórien, and then he's provoking Haldir like that. Anybody would think him stupid. And I'm pretty sure Dimli didn't speak Khuzdul out of stress; a few seconds earlier Legolas and Haldir babbled (hate to use that word) along in Elvish, which he didn't understand anything of, and by using his language, he wanted to show them, that he could do exactly the same thing. Not smart in that situation, but Dwarves you know Anyways, my point is, Gimli is provoking, not nervous.

Sapphire_Flame · 12-02-2002, 11:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There is no translation for it! Check this out, that's a list of the Elvish/Black Speech/Dwarwish and so forth spoken in the movie. Gimli's remark means nothing, according to this list.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Heh, even if what Gimli said doesn't really mean anything, he did sound royally P.O.'d, and I think that's what PJ was going for.

Pookabunny · 12-09-2002, 02:11 AM

I'd venture to say it's something along the lines of "You're ugly and your momma dresses you funny"

01-07-2003, 04:13 PM

I have been imagining him to say, "Take that bow and stick it where the sun don't shine, you pale bastard!" Only using much fouler language.

doug*platypus · 01-15-2003, 07:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> even PJ, though it's a little surprising from a man of his perfectionistic standards. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I want some of what Orual's smoking, it must make the movies much better. Where exactly was Éomer riding north to in TTT? Why does PJ appear playing two different and obvious characters in the movies? Ditto, his children?We could always suppose that Aragorn doesn't understand Dwarvish, and that he was just saying in general that Gimli wasn't being very nice. Not likely, though.I don't think Tolkien himself invented many words of Dwarvish, let alone complete grammar. I think they probably just used similar sounding words. I'd be interested to know whether it's an actual language or just gibberish. John Rhys-Davies is Welsh, right? Maybe it's Welsh! I just hope it's not Klingon...

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 01-17-2003, 09:22 AM

I had presumed the line was Elvish and that's how Aragorn knew what Gimli said. However, if there are Elvish speakers telling me that it wasn't Elvish then that's ok.It doesn't really matter. As someone already pointed out, we didn't know what Gimli said, but we could sure as hell figure out his tone and his mood!

dunadan_aragorn · 01-18-2003, 09:47 AM

I thought the "That was not very courteous" was funny! And who says Aragorn didn,t know? He lived in Rivendell for so long, he could have picked it up!

HCIsland · 01-18-2003, 03:05 PM

It could be some kind of well known Dwarvish phrase. There are certainly a number of phrases from other languages in our world that most people know even though they don't speak the language itself.H.C.

doug*platypus · 01-18-2003, 09:26 PM

I think it's blatant Dwarf-bashing by the elitist elves and their Númenórean choreboys. I hated seeing Aragorn tell Gimli off, here and at Parth Galen. Gimli should have just bullrushed him and smacked him in the face. Dwarf workers unite! Cast down the oppressive bourgeois elves! Snatch the means of production! Peter Jackson is a capitalist swine.

Diamond18 · 01-18-2003, 10:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I want some of what Orual's smoking, it must make the movies much better. Where exactly was Éomer riding north to in TTT? Why does PJ appear playing two different and obvious characters in the movies? Ditto, his children? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Or maybe you could stop to consider that Orual made that post on November 27th.

doug*platypus · 01-19-2003, 01:52 AM

Good call. The major difference between FOTR and TTT for most of the fans on the Downs seems to be the adherence to the story (or lack thereof). I think everyone was more accepting of the changes in FOTR and saw them as a regrettable necessity. Many of the changes to TTT are just sacrilige and butchery. Of course, this doesn't mean that I don't still want some of what Orual's smoking.

sassyfriend · 09-02-2011, 02:44 PM

He (Gimli) Said I spit on your grave

11-27-2002, 06:46 PM	#1
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	Smile when you say that, Gimli! So, has anyone found a translation of the Dwarvish phrase that Gimli says to Haldir in Lothlorien? I watched the film with the English subtitles on, but there was no translation. <P>All we really know is that Aragorn did not think it was very "courteous". (Though I doubt that he said anything bad enough to be censored at the Barrow Downs. )

11-27-2002, 08:33 PM	#2
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	How could Aragorn had known? Dwarves never taught their language to outsiders....all we know is "Baruk Khazâd! Kazâd ai-mênu!!"<P>Of course, that is from the book.... __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

11-27-2002, 09:41 PM	#4
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 883	Oh, well, everyone's entitled a stupid move, even PJ, though it's a little surprising from a man of his perfectionistic standards. I'll be able to argue this better once I've seen the extended version...come FRIDAY!!! Yay! Eru bless my lovely friend who invited me over!<P>~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

11-27-2002, 10:02 PM	#5
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,014	I did wonder about that, but I considered Aragorn's reaction was more to the additude of Gimli, rather than what he said. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

11-27-2002, 10:22 PM	#6
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	Thank you Manwe and Morima. Since I'm not well versed on all of Tolkien's other works, I was not aware of exactly how many words are recorded in the Dwarf language by Tolkien. <P>However; I respectfully suggest that neither do you, Morima. Here is a link with several more Dwarvish words and word fragments that have been recorded. <A HREF="http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/khuzdul.htm" TARGET=_blank>The Secret Tongue of the Dwarves</A><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>of course, that is from the book...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Of course, Manwe, We are talking about the film here. And NO film is ever "the book".<P>But since P.J. went to the trouble and expense to employ Tolkien scholars and linquists to assist him in the writing of dialog which uses the good professor's languages, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and suggest that he probably worked closely with these people to get the proper "sound" of the Dwarf tongue, even if the words had no real meaning. <P>Now why would he do this? Because it gives us a wonderful little scene with a wealth of background information concerning the characters. It shows us Gimli's irracibility and stubborness, (Haldir is <I>this</I> close to shooting the pesky dwarf, but Gimli is still mouthing off at him.) It establishes the difference between the races, not just in appearance, but in their languages. <P>It also give us a quite a bit of insight into the character of Aragorn. By his "knowing" what Gimli is saying, it suggests that Aragorn a highly educated Man, (much more even than Haldir the Elf, since Haldir doesn't know what Gimli said - though he can probably guess). It also suggests that Aragorn has traveled widely and has had dealings with many different races.<P>That's a lot of information to convey in a scene that only lasts maybe 10 seconds. And THAT'S good film-making! So even though you tell me that the actual "words" had no meaning, I'm still going to defend P.J.'s use of that scene, and I'm very glad he took the time and effort to put that moment back in the film.<P>Oh, BTW: in the above article, it does give incidences where a select few Men and Elves were taught the Dwarf tongue. So it would be no stretch of the imagination to believe that Aragorn knew "Dwarvish". Who better than the heir of Isildur, and the future King of Gondor and Anor?<p>[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

11-27-2002, 09:09 PM	#3
morima Guest Posts: n/a	There is no translation for it! Check <A HREF="http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_elvish.htm#gimli" TARGET=_blank>this</A> out, that's a list of the Elvish/Black Speech/Dwarwish and so forth spoken in the movie. Gimli's remark means nothing, according to this list. And you're right, Manwë, Aragorn could never have known! That is a stupid move from PJ!

11-27-2002, 10:33 PM	#7
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Yet in secert (a secret which unlike the Elves, they did not willingly unlock, even to their friends) they used their own strange tongue, changed little by the years; for it had become a tongue of lore rather than a cradle-speech, and they tended it and guarded it as a treasure of the past. <B>Few of other race have succeeded in learning it</B>. In this history it appears only in such place-names as Gimli reavealed to his companions; and is the battle-cry which he uttered in teh siege of teh Hornburg. That at least was not secret, and had been heard on many a field since the world was young. <I>Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!</I> 'Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So some learned the language, but were never taught by the Dwarves themselves. Perhaps Aragorn did learn from Elrond or Celeborn; we'll probably never know.<P>And I have no idea why I posted this...it should be in "Books". __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

11-28-2002, 01:23 AM	#8
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	I liked the scene, personally; it certainly showed that Gimli was less than thrilled about Haldir's "Welcome to Lorien" especially as it related to singling him out. The filmmakers had comparatively little time in which to get Gimli's displeasure across, and falling into one's native language is a pretty universal and clear sign of stress. Besides, it makes the contrast with his attitude after Galadriel's gifts much sharper.<P>As for the language - if it were Elvish, or a similar language on which Tolkien had left real notes, I'd say that the filmmakers should have taken the trouble to use the real thing. But if you look at the information on Dwarvish, there really isn't much there, and what there is mostly refers to geography, so unless you want to have Gimli describing the locations of Zirakzigil and Khazad-Dum, you're going to have to make something up. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

11-28-2002, 04:35 AM	#9
Fleance Stoneycroft Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Isengart Posts: 13	I think the scene is funny, too. But it is unfortunate it is no real Dwarvish. And I would like to hear more of the Black Speech in the next films. This interests me most.<BR><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/the_dark_wizard_of_orthanc/sauron.html" TARGET=_blank>Horror and LotR</A><BR>PS: My tenth post!! __________________ Thee,I will drink thy blood...

12-02-2002, 09:37 AM	#10
Melephelwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: the Middle of Nowhere Posts: 291	I think Aragorn's comment was on the fact that Gimli were, as already mentioned, very close to get if not shot, then at least kicked far out of Lórien, and then he's provoking Haldir like that. Anybody would think him stupid.<BR>And I'm pretty sure Dimli didn't speak Khuzdul out of stress; a few seconds earlier Legolas and Haldir babbled (hate to use that word) along in Elvish, which he didn't understand anything of, and by using <B>his</B> language, he wanted to show them, that he could do exactly the same thing. Not smart in that situation, but Dwarves you know <BR>Anyways, my point is, Gimli is provoking, not nervous. __________________ We're all following a strange melody We're all summoned by a tune We're following the piper And we dance beneath the moon

12-02-2002, 11:05 AM	#11
Sapphire_Flame Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The World That Never Was Posts: 1,246	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There is no translation for it! Check this out, that's a list of the Elvish/Black Speech/Dwarwish and so forth spoken in the movie. Gimli's remark means nothing, according to this list.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Heh, even if what Gimli said doesn't really mean anything, he did sound royally P.O.'d, and I think that's what PJ was going for. __________________ The Hitchhiking Ghost

12-09-2002, 02:11 AM	#12
Pookabunny Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The only place that matters! Posts: 181	I'd venture to say it's something along the lines of "You're ugly and your momma dresses you funny" __________________ "I love you more than I did the week before, I discovered alcohol" - Bare Naked Ladies

01-07-2003, 04:13 PM	#13
Arwen the Evenstar Guest Posts: n/a	I have been imagining him to say, "Take that bow and stick it where the sun don't shine, you pale bastard!" Only using much fouler language.

01-15-2003, 07:02 AM	#14
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 961	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> even PJ, though it's a little surprising from a man of his perfectionistic standards. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I want some of what Orual's smoking, it must make the movies much better. Where exactly was Éomer riding north to in TTT? Why does PJ appear playing two different and obvious characters in the movies? Ditto, his children?<P>We could always suppose that Aragorn doesn't understand Dwarvish, and that he was just saying in general that Gimli wasn't being very nice. Not likely, though.<P>I don't think Tolkien himself invented many words of Dwarvish, let alone complete grammar. I think they probably just used similar sounding words. I'd be interested to know whether it's an actual language or just gibberish. John Rhys-Davies is Welsh, right? Maybe it's Welsh! I just hope it's not Klingon... __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-17-2003, 09:22 AM	#15
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,916	I had presumed the line was Elvish and that's how Aragorn knew what Gimli said. However, if there are Elvish speakers telling me that it wasn't Elvish then that's ok.<P>It doesn't really matter. As someone already pointed out, we didn't know what Gimli said, but we could sure as hell figure out his tone and his mood! __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

01-18-2003, 09:47 AM	#16
dunadan_aragorn Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the bowels of Moria Posts: 105	I thought the "That was not very courteous" was funny! And who says Aragorn didn,t know? He lived in Rivendell for so long, he could have picked it up! __________________ Allia Octa Est, The Die is Cast -Julius Ceaser

01-18-2003, 03:05 PM	#17
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	It could be some kind of well known Dwarvish phrase. There are certainly a number of phrases from other languages in our world that most people know even though they don't speak the language itself.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

01-18-2003, 09:26 PM	#18
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 961	I think it's blatant Dwarf-bashing by the elitist elves and their Númenórean choreboys. I hated seeing Aragorn tell Gimli off, here and at Parth Galen. Gimli should have just bullrushed him and smacked him in the face. <P>Dwarf workers unite! Cast down the oppressive bourgeois elves! Snatch the means of production! Peter Jackson is a capitalist swine. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

01-18-2003, 10:08 PM	#19
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,493	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I want some of what Orual's smoking, it must make the movies much better. Where exactly was Éomer riding north to in TTT? Why does PJ appear playing two different and obvious characters in the movies? Ditto, his children? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Or maybe you could stop to consider that Orual made that post on November 27th. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-19-2003, 01:52 AM	#20
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 961	Good call. The major difference between FOTR and TTT for most of the fans on the Downs seems to be the adherence to the story (or lack thereof). I think everyone was more accepting of the changes in FOTR and saw them as a regrettable necessity. Many of the changes to TTT are just sacrilige and butchery. Of course, this doesn't mean that I don't still want some of what Orual's smoking. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

09-02-2011, 02:44 PM	#21
sassyfriend Wight Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 165	He (Gimli) Said I spit on your grave