Hobbit Origins, Destiny & Fate

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I think it was Birdland somewhere who makes a great case for the creation of Hobbits, albeit unknown to the High-Elves and the Wise, as Eru’s plan for eventually dealing with the remnant of Morgoth’s evil in Middle-Earth, as personified in Sauron, and embodied in the Ring.

I like this theory of the Hobbits’ innocence (Sméagol notwithstanding) being the means to cleanse Middle-Earth, by outgrowth from Eru's musical destiny.

And the connection with Gandalf's mentality and predilections is all the more intriguing, especially if one sees it in all its powerful subtlety.

In a way, Hobbits are more closely related to Men, just as the Istari are. But in some ways they compare with Ents, to whom they relate so well. They are there to protect the World, to give the Second-born the chance and an example of humility and simplicity (like Gandalf) but to eventually fade, like all others, but Men.

But just because there is destiny and fate in the Music of Ainur does not mean that the players are without Free Will. Destiny is not pure determinism, especially if one considers someone like Iluvatar, or God, for which the beginning and the end are the same.

Frodo, Sméagol and the rest have Free Will in a way comparable to Men. Again, I think the way that Fate or Free Will avails itself on the various Free Peoples is relative.

The Elves are the most entangled with the Fate of Arda, while Men perhaps are the most unfettered; Hobbits and Dwarves only relatively less so.

Still, they are all affected by Destiny as outlined in the Music, but all are also ultimately capable of succeeding or failing at an individual level. Men, however, can really add new themes to the Music, and thus will join in its remaking in the End. It is this ultimate freedom that so frightened Morgoth about the second-born, as he understood the Music as well as Manwe, and that understanding was the source of his power.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[Legolas]

Did you read this thread?

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Quite. That is the thread that inspired the topic, which I preferred to recast and restart anew. I hope that isn't naught, but I prefer short threads with long replies.

The old one had gotten into a sort of argument about what Tolkien said or did not say.

Clearly, he was very definite about keeping the origins of Hobbits (like the fate of the Entwives) a mystery.

So, I think it is then only proper to cast this issue as an admittedly speculative one based on the thematic and philosophical aspects of the story and what Tolkien is trying to say about good & evil with Hobbits that may explain how they arose, which must certainly be attributed to Iluvatar in someway.

This then leaves one to say that either this creation had a purpose or it was purely a chance thing.

Tolkien may attributed purpose to Iluvatar in a way that he wanted to keep subtle.

[burrahobbit]

ERU WAS NOT IN ANY WAY SUBTLE EVER.* If you would please show me even one case of Eru doing anything the least bit subtle I will give you a hundred dollars. Bearing in mind that it's got to be something that Tolkien attributed to Him, not something that you just made up.

*Eru was subtle like three times, ever. All three of those time have to do with altering spiritual fates, which one could argue was not particularly subtle. Luthien died, Tuor didn't, and Dwarves started to live. These things don't count toward the above.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Galorme]

I believe in the BoLTs a lot of action of attributed to the will of God. What about when he (subtly) influenced how the fate of dead (or unincarnate) elves would work by advising Manwe? He didn't take any direct action, he merely said "you have the skill to make them new bodies". This was definitely a subtle influence. Can I have 100 dollars now (how much is that in Euros?)

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Subtlety is a many-faceted thing. I do not see why Iluvatar could not be both unsubtle at times and then subtle at others.

Allowing as it was for Morgoth to be evil, but having all of Morgoth's work redouble to the glory of the Music seems in a very subtle thing in the most fundamental sense.

To the extent that Elbereth and Manwe were working through Gandalf, Galadriel and Frodo, they were doing it very subtly. This is clearly part of Tolkien's vision for how fate works its way among people exercising free will. How much these pair were working on behalf of Iluvatar is open to question, a subtle one at that. Undoubtedly, they were fulfilling Iluvatar's will in a strangely subtle way.

"Subtle" does not mean passive, gentle or insignificant; it can in once sense imply duplicitiousness, or it can mean working in very intricate, well-designed ways that are not immediately apparent or blunt.

It seems that fate and destiny -- as spun by Iluvatar through the Music -- is replete with such subtlety.

I see no harm in attributing the Hobbit's to Iluvatar's plan in a way that seems imminently logical, however, subtle it may be.

For Tolkien, in such a cases to be too blunt would be to take away from the mystery and subtle beauty that makes the books so fine.

And besides, he only knew what the Hobbits and Wise knew, sometimes less, but never more. And the Wise know not all ends, nor all beginnings.