The Fellowship - doomed to fail

[Mithadan]

In a recent thread, "The Doom of the Ring," I made the following comment:

"It is clear that Frodo did not have the will to destroy the Ring himself, particularly after the grueling journey to and into Mordor. By the time he stood at Sammath Naur, he had possessed the Ring for 17 years. Isildur, who possessed it for perhaps a matter of hours, could not be convinced to destroy it. What is remarkable is that Frodo had the will to even travel to Mount Doom with the intent to do away with the Ring. I have often wondered what Gandalf, who feared contact with the Ring himself, intended to do if he came to Mount Doom with Frodo. Surely he at least suspected that Frodo would have to be coerced or "assisted" to destroy the Ring.

Gollum's intervention, under the circumstances, was an ideal solution."

Thinking about this, I wondered what was the plan? What could Gandalf have had in mind if the Fellowship, or some potion of it, reached Mount Doom? Was there any circumstance under which Frodo might have completed the quest voluntarily and destroyed the Ring? Could he have been coerced or assisted?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

In a recent thread, "The Doom of the Ring," I made the following comment:

"It is clear that Frodo did not have the will to destroy the Ring himself, particularly after the grueling journey to and into Mordor. By the time he stood at Sammath Naur, he had possessed the Ring for 17 years. Isildur, who possessed it for perhaps a matter of hours, could not be convinced to destroy it. What is remarkable is that Frodo had the will to even travel to Mount Doom with the intent to do away with the Ring. I have often wondered what Gandalf, who feared contact with the Ring himself, intended to do if he came to Mount Doom with Frodo. Surely he at least suspected that Frodo would have to be coerced or "assisted" to destroy the Ring.

Gollum's intervention, under the circumstances, was an ideal solution."

Thinking about this, I wondered what was the plan? What could Gandalf have had in mind if the Fellowship, or some potion of it, reached Mount Doom? Was there any circumstance under which Frodo might have completed the quest voluntarily and destroyed the Ring? Could he have been coerced or assisted?

Possibly Gandalf had no concrete plan. His plan may have been in its entirety just to get the Ring to Mount Doom. Beyond that there was no plan but to trust in Eru to provide a solution.

On the other hand, given his experience with successfully persuading Bilbo to give up the Ring that perhaps Gandalf could have persuaded Frodo to destroy it...on the assumption that Gandalf intended to accompany Frodo to the end (which I think he did).

However, on the whole I suspect the first answer is closer to the truth.

Pushing Frodo into the Crack of Doom (as practical a solution as that would be) could not possibly have been contemplated.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Possibly Gandalf had no concrete plan. His plan may have been in its entirety just to get the Ring to Mount Doom. Beyond that there was no plan but to trust in Eru to provide a solution.

I agree. I think faith was a major component of Gandalf's plan: he believed that good would succeed in the end, and was primarily interested in arranging the circumstances for it to do so.

Faithfulness, as opposed to a need for certainty, seems to be a general distinction in characterisation between Gandalf and Saruman, and the reason the latter failed his mission - trying to force results by his own power, and that power which he could take, rather than accepting the role of a higher power in events. It goes back to Gandalf's remark about Bilbo and Frodo being "meant" to have the Ring, "and not by its maker."

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

[...]Was there any circumstance under which Frodo might have completed the quest voluntarily and destroyed the Ring? Could he have been coerced or assisted?

As I stated in the doom of the ring - thread, I don't believe any person would have been able to destroy the ring willingly, or by choice. Note that Frodo wasn't even able to throw the ring into his fireplace back home. And Gandalf about knew this: "He weighed the Ring in his hand, hesitating, and forcing himself to remember all that Gandalf had told him; and then with an effort of will he made a movement, as if to cast it away - but he found that he had put it back in his pocket. Gandalf laughed grimly. 'You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not "make" you – except by force, which would break your mind.'"

So, I retain my previous stand on this matter:

Originally Posted by myself, how snooty

As I see it, the person who destroys the ring willingly, at the cracks of Mt. Doom, would have to be a person who rejects the very possibility of any kind of influence to the world around him, a person without any interest in his own fate and in the fate of others. The problem is that this 'being' would be, essentialy, an 'un-person'.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

On the other hand, given his experience with successfully persuading Bilbo to give up the Ring that perhaps Gandalf could have persuaded Frodo to destroy it...on the assumption that Gandalf intended intended to accompany Frodo to the end (which I think he did).

It's true, Bilbo parted with the ring willingly, but Gandalf took the implications of this event with a major grain of salt: "A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things."

On a side note: Gandalf seems to forget about Cirdan and his own Ring of Power.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I agree. I think faith was a major component of Gandalf's plan: he believed that good would succeed in the end, and was primarily interested in arranging the circumstances for it to do so.

Faithfulness, as opposed to a need for certainty, seems to be a general distinction in characterisation between Gandalf and Saruman, and the reason the latter failed his mission - trying to force results by his own power, and that power which he could take, rather than accepting the role of a higher power in events. It goes back to Gandalf's remark about Bilbo and Frodo being "meant" to have the Ring, "and not by its maker."

I think that this is the most helpful perspective on Gandalf's planning and way of thinking.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Leaf

On a side note: Gandalf seems to forget about Cirdan and his own Ring of Power.

That's been discussed a bit elsewhere.

[Mithadan]

Gandalf's "talent" was his ability to inspire, persuade and encourage others to act. As Leaf comments, this ability is enhanced by the Ring that Gandalf bears. Does this impact upon his ability to cajole or persuade Frodo to destroy the Ring?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Gandalf's "talent" was his ability to inspire, persuade and encourage others to act. As Leaf comments, this ability is enhanced by the Ring that Gandalf bears. Does this impact upon his ability to cajole or persuade Frodo to destroy the Ring?

I think Narya did help Gandalf to inspire. It was the Ring of Fire, and Círdan told him that with it Gandalf could "rekindle hearts" or something like that (don't have the books handy).

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Gandalf's "talent" was his ability to inspire, persuade and encourage others to act. As Leaf comments, this ability is enhanced by the Ring that Gandalf bears. Does this impact upon his ability to cajole or persuade Frodo to destroy the Ring?

Well, Gandalf himself didn't think he could convince, or persuade, Bilbo to destroy the Ring of Power:

He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside.

I think it's fair to assume that he would expand his verdict to other Ring-bearers and that destroying the Ring would imply casting it aside. His 'talent' went only so far to help convincing Bilbo to leave the Ring behind for Frodo, which is a huge success in that matter in the first place.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

he believed that good would succeed in the end

I don't agree so much with this.

I think Gandalf believed that Sauron could triumph, but even in those dire circumstances he believed there was a correct way to go about doing things that ultimately involved putting the situation in the hands of Eru regardless of outcome.

Originally Posted by Leaf

As I see it, the person who destroys the ring willingly, at the cracks of Mt. Doom, would have to be a person who rejects the very possibility of any kind of influence to the world around him, a person without any interest in his own fate and in the fate of others. The problem is that this 'being' would be, essentialy, an 'un-person'.

This too is paradoxical as the un-person would still have to have an impulse to destroy the Ring, which (even if the un-person viewed the Ring as a worthless bauble) would still "influence" the un-person's surroundings, even if only to the extent that the un-person was no longer holding the Ring.