The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Announcements and Obituaries > Haudh-en-Ndengin
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-09-2002, 02:09 AM   #1
piosenniel
Desultory Dwimmerlaik
 
piosenniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat.....
Posts: 7,791
piosenniel is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Sting Boromir's Death

What did the death of Boromir accomplish, that couldn't be accomplished if he had continued on as a member of the fellowship?

Why was his death necessary to the story line?
__________________
Eldest, thats what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.
piosenniel is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 04:07 AM   #2
Aule
Wight
 
Aule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Hammering away in Valinor
Posts: 126
Aule has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

If he had lived no one would trust him, and he would still want to get the ring as it had got a hold over him.
But his death saved him from having to put up with the pain of constantly wanting the ring. It also in a way saved his soul. He gave up his life to save Merry and Pippin cancelling out the harm he had done by trying to take the ring
__________________
For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall
Aule is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 04:21 AM   #3
Thinhyandoiel
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 187
Thinhyandoiel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Thinhyandoiel
Eye

But Frodo had already left with the ring, would Boromir be that desperate to follow him all over the Emyn Muil to get it? I mean, I don't even think he knew Frodo had left the Fellowship before he died, and would have been left with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to clear up the "riddle" Sam and Frodo left. Also, Boromir wanted the ring to save his people, to save the White City. Though terribly misguided, his intentions were true. I think he would have argued to follow Frodo and Sam (once they figured out the 'riddle') but would have also went with Aragorn and co. to save Merry & Pippin. I have often pondered this. I think if Boromir had lived, nothing would have drastically changed, and would have actually been a good help to Aragorn and co. on their rescue mission. In other words, I don't think he had to die. Good topic piosenniel! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Thinhyandoiel ]
__________________
In gwidh ristennen, i fae narchannen
I lach Anor ed ardhon gwannen
Caled veleg, ethuiannen
Thinhyandoiel is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 04:32 AM   #4
Telchar
Stonehearted Dwarf Smith
 
Telchar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 2,247
Telchar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Does anyone like me think that the pridefull personality that Boromir was would in the end have caused trouble regarding Aragorn taking over the throne of Gondor?
Boromir was, as if not as wise then in temper very much like his father. Denethor didnt give much for Aragorns claims - and there might arise a situation where it came to strife between these to combetants to the throne??? Just thoughts...

Cheers
__________________
Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.
Telchar is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 04:39 AM   #5
Thinhyandoiel
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 187
Thinhyandoiel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Thinhyandoiel
Eye

Ah! A good point Telchar! Didn't think of that. Another question to be asked, (by me) is could Denethor have been saved if Boromir had been around? And would that have been a good thing (in light of Telchar's insight)? So...now I'm reconsidering, maybe Boromir's death was a bit necessary, and he actually did help in kicking the bucket (with all due respect to Boromir, love the guy, but he would've caused problems, non?).
__________________
In gwidh ristennen, i fae narchannen
I lach Anor ed ardhon gwannen
Caled veleg, ethuiannen
Thinhyandoiel is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 06:17 AM   #6
The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,188
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Sting

It is rather interesting that the people who were most likely to stand in the way of Aragorn's accession conveniently die off during the War of the Ring. This subject is explored to great comic effect in Bored of the Rings, which has been mentioned elsewhere.
__________________
Man kenuva mtim' andne?
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 06:51 AM   #7
O'Boile
Wight
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 117
O'Boile has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Boromir may not have needed to die... but that doesn't mean that he can't. When there is fighting, people die... sometimes the author may just put it in without a point. Although, it is interesting to note that every good guy (at least good at some point) who desires the ring (Boromir, Saruman, Denethor) ends up dead.
Also, Boromir accepts Aragorn's leadership of the company, and seems in the end to treat him like the king he is. Maybe this would have changed had they gone to Minas Tirith however.
O'Boile is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 07:17 AM   #8
The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,188
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Sting

That's what I thought: Boromir seems reasonably happy with Aragorn's leadership of the Fellowship, but that's not the same thing as accepting his sovereignty. I've a feeling that once they arrived at Minas Tirith, Denethor would have flatly denied Aragorn's legitimacy and Boromir, like a dutiful son, would have supported him, especially since to do so would be in his own interests. It could have been very messy.
__________________
Man kenuva mtim' andne?
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 08:32 AM   #9
O'Boile
Wight
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 117
O'Boile has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Squatter of Amon Rudh what do you think Faramir's reaction would be? Personally, I think he would support his father unless Aragorn's claim was proven to him somehow (maybe Gandalf telling him or something to do with Andruil or something like that). At that point, he would probably support Aragorn.
O'Boile is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 08:44 AM   #10
The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,188
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Sting

Well, it's evident that Gandalf had a lot of influence over Faramir, since it was a bone of contention between both of them and Denethor. The poor fellow would probably have been caught between his mentor and his father; not an enviable position.
__________________
Man kenuva mtim' andne?
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 08:50 AM   #11
Child of the 7th Age
Spirit of the Lonely Star
 
Child of the 7th Age's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,135
Child of the 7th Age is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Sting

Pio --

Hey, Pio, you're supposed to be dead, I mean not Barrow-downs dead, but really dead a la our RPG. How can you be posting??

I think there was another underlying reason why Boromir had to die, and that reason why Faramir. Tolkien says in his Letters that this was the character in the LotR whom he identified with most closely. Just as Tolkien and his son Michael had dreams of a great wave coming over an island (Numenor/Atlantis), so did Faramir. In Tolkien's words, "For when Faramir speaks of his private vision of the Great Wave, he speaks for me." p. 232

Tolkien was very fond of Faramir. In one letter, he defends him and Eowyn against criticisms, saying that Faramir was "daunted by his father" and also had a "bossy brother" (i.e. Boromir). "He (i.e. Faramir) had been accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air." For this reason, to let Faramir grow and mature and find happiness, the stern Numenorean chief and the bossy brother had to go.

And Tolkien could not have created a beautiful vision of the kingdom of Gondor with its proud king Aragorn, and then pair him with a man like Boromir or even Denethor. In Tolkien's idealized kingdom, such men would not have enough dignity and goodness to fill the position of steward of Gondor. Even if Boromir would have accepted the role of steward, he was too flawed with his inordinate love of battle. Faramir, on the other hand, was much closer to Tolkien's ideal --a gentle man, who loved lore and music and who had enough discernment to read men's minds. It's no coincidence that it was Faramir's men, and no other, who were seen by Frodo rising to "have grace" before their meal, i.e. to remember Numenor and the Blessed West that lay beyond. The book leaves the clear impression that the Ringbearer felt humble and rustic that his own hobbit people did not have such a custom.

In a strange way, I have always seen Frodo and Faramir as being somewhat akin to each other in temperament and leanings. One a hobbit and one a man, but both Elf-friends, and sensitive to those things that lay beyond the apparent physical world.

As you might guess from this post, Faramir is my favorite human character in LotR. Hope PJ does a good job with him!

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
__________________
Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.
Child of the 7th Age is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 11:10 AM   #12
piosenniel
Desultory Dwimmerlaik
 
piosenniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat.....
Posts: 7,791
piosenniel is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Sting

Child - Never mistake the character for the writer!

So, could you say that Boromir was a convenient prop used by Tolkien, an artifice designed to bring out certain aspects of other characters.

He was a character never intended to be fully fleshed out and was discarded when he served his purposes.
__________________
Eldest, thats what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.
piosenniel is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 11:29 AM   #13
The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,188
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Sting

That's a bit harsh. We just don't get much of a chance to get to know him before he dies.
__________________
Man kenuva mtim' andne?
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 11:55 AM   #14
piosenniel
Desultory Dwimmerlaik
 
piosenniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat.....
Posts: 7,791
piosenniel is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Sting

Quote:
That's a bit harsh. We just don't get much of a chance to get to know him before he dies.
I didn't mean the comment to be harsh. I just think we were never intended to get to know him as he served his purpose and then was whisked off stage.
__________________
Eldest, thats what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.
piosenniel is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 12:07 PM   #15
The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,188
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Sting

That's what I meant: it makes Tolkien sound so ruthlessly calculating about his characters. Boromir's a classic tragic hero: brave, honest and noble, but cursed with a human frailty, namely pride, which, along with the virtue of wanting to save his city, lays him open to the Ring's influence. I think that Tolkien has him die out of mercy: Boromir would never have been able to live with his failure at the Falls.
__________________
Man kenuva mtim' andne?
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 12:50 PM   #16
The Silver-shod Muse
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX
Posts: 388
The Silver-shod Muse has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Boromir has significance to the readers as well as to the characters. His position wasn't a prop, it was an entire sub-story engineered to illustrate a rather touching sub-moral: repentance and the uttermost sacrifice of one's life.

"No man has greater love than this: that he lay down his life for his friends." -somewhere in the Bible (the chapter and verse has slipped my mind)
__________________
"'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis
The Silver-shod Muse is offline  
Old 08-09-2002, 01:31 PM   #17
Raefindel
Sword of the Spirit
 
Raefindel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,325
Raefindel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Raefindel
Sting

That's from John 15:13.

I would agree, that Faramir would not be the same character if Boromir had lived.

And I don't think Pio's remark was harsh, in that Boromir's character has served it's perpose. But is does tend to make Boromir's character sound simplified.

Boromir's relationship with is father and brother is a very intricate and masterful part of the plot.
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1
Raefindel is offline  
Old 08-10-2002, 02:21 AM   #18
Brionna
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Chico, CA
Posts: 13
Brionna has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

IMO- Boromir dies so to further endear him to us. Would we have forgiven him as fully if he still lived, instead of dying nobly while trying to protect Merry and Pippin? With his death, he restored all his good and honest qualities. His last actions are selfless and heroic, and those are the characteristics that endure. In this way, Tolkien allows Boromir to do the damage of causing the break up of the Fellowship, and at the same time lets him repent and attone for his sins.
Brionna is offline  
Old 08-10-2002, 02:37 AM   #19
Belin
Shade of Carn Dm
 
Belin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: all the wide unfriendly pathways of the world
Posts: 330
Belin has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via Yahoo to Belin
Silmaril

Quote:
was discarded when he served his purposes
But he wasn't discarded. In fact, I'd say we get to know him much better after his death than we did when he was part of the Fellowship. During FotR, he seemed fairly churlish and uncooperative to me, arguing with everyone and being tempted by the ring all the time. Minas Tirith was an opportunity to see, literally, where he was coming from, and his desire to save his city is one we (meaning, I) can sympathize with much more easily when we've been there. Furthermore, it is through his relationships with Faramir and Denethor that we come to see him as someone that people cared about, and we don't meet either of them until long after his death. I would argue that, rather than being "whisked off the stage," he lingered on much longer than we might have expected.

In fact, one of the really important effects of his death on the plot that nobody's yet mentioned is Pippin's enlisting in Denethor's service. He says:

Quote:
He died to save us... and though he fell and failed, my gratitude is none the less
and proceeds to offer to risk his own life, and ends up saving Faramir, and this is in RotK! Boromir's still making things happen! Important things, too; his sacrifice is a huge part of what causes Pippin to mature, and the hobbits' growing awareness of the non-Shire world matters very much.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]
__________________
"I hate dignity," cried Scraps, kicking a pebble high in the air and then trying to catch it as it fell. "Half the fools and all the wise folks are dignified, and I'm neither the one nor the other." --L. Frank Baum
Belin is offline  
Old 08-10-2002, 04:57 AM   #20
Shadow of Udn
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 32
Shadow of Udn has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
Boromir would never have been able to live with his failure at the Falls.
I disagree. I think, if Boromir had lived, he would have been a changed man. I don't think the change came at his death, but before, when he realised what he had done in attacking Frodo. I think he had overcome his greed and would have acknowledged Aragorn as the king. After the fight at Rauros, Aragorn blamed himself -
Quote:
Now the company is all in ruin. It is I that have failed
and yet he recovered from this blow.
I love Boromir - he's so Shakespearian, like in Corialanus. Aragorn and Gandalf are simply heroic characters, but Boromir has to fight within himself to find the courage. Doesn't that make his act of courage all the greater?
__________________
What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow...
Shadow of Udn is offline  
Old 08-10-2002, 06:57 AM   #21
The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,188
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Sting

Yes, I suppose that I did get a bit carried away. Mind you, Aragorn's failure is that much less, in that he never sways from the purpose of the Fellowship. I agree with you about Boromir, though: he isn't perfect, but he does his best and that's as much as anyone can do.
__________________
Man kenuva mtim' andne?
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is offline  
Old 08-10-2002, 09:46 AM   #22
Ravenna
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: witney, oxfordshire
Posts: 70
Ravenna has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Boromir's death represents imo his ultimate triumph over himself, he has redeemed himself by his selfless defence of the hobbits, his pride is crushed by losing the fight with the orcs, (never mind that he was vastly outnumbered).
He says to Aragorn that he tried to take the ring, and also that Merry and Pippin are taken, 'I have failed'
Aragorn's reply is that 'No you have conquered.' implying that Boromir has conquered himself, and overcome his faults.
I agree that if he had not died, more problems would have arisen in Minas Tirith, if only that he would have told his father all about the quest and then Denethor would quite likely have looked in his palantir and reavealed, possibly without realising it, the entire plot to Sauron, thus dooming the ringbearers and all the hopes resting upon them.
Ravenna is offline  
Old 08-10-2002, 10:19 AM   #23
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,583
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Tolkien

Quote:
his pride is crushed by losing the fight with the orcs
I'm not so sure that his pride was crushed by the defeat by the orcs. I think his pride was crushed by his failure. Ugluk and his merry band of fellows just happened to be the physical circumstances of his death. Or rather, the physical cause of his death.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline  
Old 08-10-2002, 06:08 PM   #24
Ravenna
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: witney, oxfordshire
Posts: 70
Ravenna has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I take your point Kuruhuran, my thoughts don't always come out very well in my typing, you've actually said what I was trying to get across, thanks. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]
Ravenna is offline  
Old 08-11-2002, 11:06 AM   #25
Durialion
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lothlorien
Posts: 42
Durialion has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Durialion Send a message via AIM to Durialion
Sting

I liked Boromir and all, but he was knda stupid. He tried to take the ring and he did help all that much. I would trade him for any elf any day. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
__________________
Durialion the High Elf
"I wish the ring had never come to me and this adventure had never happened." Frodo
"So do all who live to see these times, but you have to decide what to do when the time comes." Gandalf
Durialion is offline  
Old 08-11-2002, 12:00 PM   #26
Child of the 7th Age
Spirit of the Lonely Star
 
Child of the 7th Age's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,135
Child of the 7th Age is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Sting

Durialion --

Boromir "kinda stupid"??? No way. There are many things I might call Boromir, but this is not one of them. We, with the benefit of hindsight, know that the Ring could not be used for any purpose, even an ostensibly good one, since it could only lead to death and destruction. We also have the benefit of hindsight in understanding that Gandalf was not merely a wizard, but a Maia, a member of the hierarchy of Valinor. Boromir would not have clearly understood the first point and probably didn't even have a glimmer about the second. So it was more difficult for him to make a clear judgement about the Ring.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ August 11, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]
__________________
Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.
Child of the 7th Age is offline  
Old 08-11-2002, 02:27 PM   #27
The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,188
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rdh
Sting

Quite right. It's always easy to decide with hindsight
__________________
Man kenuva mtim' andne?
The Squatter of Amon Rdh is offline  
Old 08-12-2002, 02:23 PM   #28
Durialion
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Lothlorien
Posts: 42
Durialion has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Durialion Send a message via AIM to Durialion
Sting

This is soooo funny. I rewatched the movie and now I think my favorite character is Boromir. He is cool. He gave his life and he pledged his alligence to Aragorn. And I quote "I will follow you anywhere my brother, my commander, my king. I just thought it over he made up for it. he is cool. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
__________________
Durialion the High Elf
"I wish the ring had never come to me and this adventure had never happened." Frodo
"So do all who live to see these times, but you have to decide what to do when the time comes." Gandalf
Durialion is offline  
Old 08-13-2002, 12:04 AM   #29
Shadow of Udn
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 32
Shadow of Udn has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Oh, why didn't they just bring along Glorfindel and leave Boromir in Rivendell? He would have been infinitely more useful.
__________________
What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow...
Shadow of Udn is offline  
Old 08-13-2002, 01:03 PM   #30
Lord Tohlos
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The far North
Posts: 21
Lord Tohlos has just left Hobbiton.
Shield

If they brought Glorfindel, it wouldnt give the story what it has, and our beloved Boromir. I honestly think Borormir should have lived. Any problems with Aragorn and Minas Tirith would have been taken care of by, probably, Gandalf. I think, in my never humble opionion, that Tolkien killed him off so as to prevent the problem with Aragorn and M.T. By killing Boromir off, he wouldnt have to write more to the story. If Bormoir had lived, I would think that LOTR would be longer then it is. Tolkien killed him off to prevent the story from getting longer. If he hadnt killed Boromir off, ROTK would have been several chapters longer, talking about the fights, ect between Boromir and Aragorn about who rules M.T. So, what have we learned? By killing off Boromir, Tolkien has shortened the story, and got rid of what could have been some very good chapters. So, once again in my never humble opinion, Tolkien killed him off to shorten the story. Now, I do not mean to dis Tolkien in anyway by writing this. Once again: Boromirs Death= Less writing, and a shorter story. Boromir Lives: A much longer story, and more entertaining, becuase Im sure all of use wonder what it would have been like if he lived. Boromirs Death: By eliminating him, he can bring in other characters to take his place. Boromir Lives: The extra characters are not needed, hence it would actually cut down on writing by letting him live. I saw no point in his death. It was just to get rid of him, becuase of any difficulty he would have caused, which is actually very little.
__________________
Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf.

"Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!"
Lord Tohlos is offline  
Old 08-14-2002, 09:54 AM   #31
Thranduil
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 30
Thranduil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

To be honest, you can't focus on that Boromir not dying would've made the story more interesting and longer; his death did do more than that.

First off, things never would've been the same. If you had it so Merry and Pippin would've been taken because Boromir wasn't around at the time, his character wouldn't have changed; there's no redemption (besides, at the begining of the series when Boromir sees the ring you knew that something bad would come of it). Or if you had it so Aragorn would've been able to heal his wounds (it wouldn't have been instantly mind you), the remainder of the Fellowship would've had to wait for him to recover; and that would really mess up the story.

Second, aren't you all forgetting about Faramir?! He's not the exact opposite of Boromir, but he posseses qualities that his brother lacked. If anything, Faramir is the one who proves that not all men are weak and susceptible to the ring (Aragorn doesn't really count; he's the main character, a descendant of Isildur, and his blood hasn't been tainted like Faramir's). If Boromir hadn't died, the character of Faramir would've been diminished (and consequently, all that happened with Denethor) and that would've totally screwed up the story. Could you imagine it back at Minas Tirith, "Hey little bro," "Boromir! You're back!"
No, it wouldn't be Tolkien's style...

Lastly, Tolkien is known for his bitter-sweet stories. Come on, admit it! You knew ONE of the fellowship was going do die didn't you?
Thranduil is offline  
Old 08-14-2002, 10:03 AM   #32
Lord Tohlos
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The far North
Posts: 21
Lord Tohlos has just left Hobbiton.
Shield

I could have lived without Legolas. Besides, Boromir would have had redemption anways. He would have plenty chances. Now, Tolkien could have decided to kill him off later, IE The Siege of Gondor. That would have been much better then being shot with three arrows at the river. Boromir being killed by the Witch King: Has a bit more to it then being shot with three arrows.

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lord Tohlos ]
__________________
Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf.

"Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!"
Lord Tohlos is offline  
Old 08-14-2002, 10:19 AM   #33
Thranduil
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 30
Thranduil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

You could've live without Legolas?! How?! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Besides, Legolas had to be there, he represented the elves in the fellowship.

And would've Boromir gotten redemption? If anything this death isn't demeaning; dying to protect 2 little hobbits while fighting off hundreds of orcs all by himself (what, it said he killed about 20-30 of them?) isn't demeaning. Besides, him against the Witch King would've been very anti-climatic. What was the prophecy/saying? The Witch King couldn't be killed by any man? That's why Eowyn and Merry did it (they're not men) and Gandalf could have (he is an Istari and a super-powerful wizard). I'm not saying that Boromir couldn't have killed him, there's always the chance that the saying wasn't true, but it wouldn't have fit the story too well.
Thranduil is offline  
Old 08-14-2002, 10:26 AM   #34
Lord Tohlos
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The far North
Posts: 21
Lord Tohlos has just left Hobbiton.
Shield

How can I not live with out Legolas? Im not obsessed with him. I like Gimli more. Borormir being killed by the Witch King, not killing the Witch King. Thats a worthy death. All the Urk-Hai had to do was throw him in a tree, knock him out. Being killed by the Witch King is a death he deserved, not being killed by three arrows. Would you rather get a high kill count and be killed by the Witch King, or kill 20-30 orcs, and then get killed with three arrows?
__________________
Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf.

"Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!"
Lord Tohlos is offline  
Old 08-14-2002, 10:35 AM   #35
Thranduil
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 30
Thranduil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

First off, I'm not obsessed with Legolas. Just gotta clear that.

Second, it wasn't just 3 arrows; that's the movie. And actually, those arrows were huge! But in the book, it doesn't give an exact number, just that Boromir was "pierced by many."

Also, how does dying by the Witch King's hand redeem himself? Sure it's a noble feat, but anyone at Minas Tirith would've tried to do it if it was necessary. But Boromir died trying to protect the Hobbits, trying to make up for his mistake.

Now lets just say that he did live, and would've gotten to go fight the Witch King. Would've the company trusted him? I don't think so...
Thranduil is offline  
Old 08-14-2002, 10:37 AM   #36
Lord Tohlos
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The far North
Posts: 21
Lord Tohlos has just left Hobbiton.
Shield

Look: Witch King: Saves Pippin, or Merry, I forget which one, and then is promtly killed, Boromir that is. Now, I would think the Fellowship would understand. If you were placed in the same situation as Boromir, wouldnt you want to use the ring?
__________________
Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf.

"Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!"
Lord Tohlos is offline  
Old 08-14-2002, 10:44 AM   #37
Thranduil
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 30
Thranduil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

You mean, for no good reason the Witch King comes to take Pippin and Merri and Boromir dies fighting him? Actually, yeah, I could live with that. Messes the story up but....meh.

And again, yes, I think the Fellowship would understand. But understanding and trust are 2 different things.

But no, I wouldn't want to use the ring if I knew how dangerous it was. I know it would be tough, knowing that your kingdom is in serious jepordy. But if I felt I was being corrupted, I'd ask to leave the Fellowship.
Thranduil is offline  
Old 08-14-2002, 10:46 AM   #38
Lord Tohlos
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The far North
Posts: 21
Lord Tohlos has just left Hobbiton.
Shield

No, Witch King about to kill the hobit at the SOG, and Boromir stops him. WK kills Boromir. Most people dont relize they are being corrupted by it, in the early stages, anyway.
__________________
Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf.

"Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!"
Lord Tohlos is offline  
Old 08-14-2002, 10:49 AM   #39
Thranduil
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 30
Thranduil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

SOG?
Thranduil is offline  
Old 08-14-2002, 10:50 AM   #40
Lord Tohlos
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The far North
Posts: 21
Lord Tohlos has just left Hobbiton.
Shield

Seige of Gondor
__________________
Lord Gloth'lier, owner of the mines in the North, and carries the axe that has been passed down through the family. Is a Dwarf.

"Elves? Pah! I would rather fight with an army of Orcs then fight with Elves!"
Lord Tohlos is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:43 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.