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Old 08-09-2000, 06:26 PM   #1
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first posts just checking


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Old 08-09-2000, 06:32 PM   #2
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom bombadill

Ok, i've lost most my books and have just re-kindled my interest. But I can't seem to remember/find info on Tom Bombadill. Was Tom ever explained, was he an Maiar or valar or what? How about his Wife? Its been while and i don't remember, someone help this is one of those things that keeps me up.

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Old 08-09-2000, 06:40 PM   #3
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom bombadill

OK, so dig through the old posts here (and at practically every other board if you like). Tom has been done (and done and done). Which proves that it is a good question, but I'm not going to even try to summarize the results. Mind you, the most important thing to remember about old Tom is the central significance of badgers.
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Old 08-09-2000, 06:41 PM   #4
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom bombadill

He is considered an enigma. There are many theories that are constanly debated on message boards some include maiar or valar, plot filler, and some even think he is Eru but that is a little bit of Tom's Charm he can be whatever you picture him as within reason and there is not really any written text to disprove it.

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Old 08-09-2000, 06:44 PM   #5
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom bombadill

Yes, eljimbo, welcome.

And yes, Tom Bombadil has been discussed thoroughly here before. But that doesn't mean you can't tell us what YOU think. Tell us your ideas on TB and we'll gladly comment!

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Old 08-10-2000, 11:56 AM   #6
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Tom bombadill is Tulkas!!!

I mean, think about it. Tulkas is always laughing and Tom is a happy guy. And look at the names, Tulkas and Tom, T and T.

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Old 08-10-2000, 12:16 PM   #7
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom bombadill is Tulkas!!!

And here I had thought that Tulkas was Treebeard all these years!

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Old 08-10-2000, 12:18 PM   #8
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom bombadill is Tulkas!!!

Tulkamaniacs! What ya gonna do!?

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Old 08-10-2000, 01:00 PM   #9
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom bombadill is Tulkas!!!

Heh he... <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

I believe that TB was a maia. There are lot of maiar not known in the legends of Men and Tom Bombadil might have been one of them. Maybe he left the Undying Lands, not that he was banished or anything; he just wanted to leave, and settled down to Middle-Earth. This all happened long before the Awakening of Elves and other major historical events.

Or what if he was sent by the valar? Just like the istari were sent to Middle-Earth to fight against Sauron? What if he was to guide Elves to sail into the West, into the light of Valinor, away from the darkness of Middle-Earth?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here alredy...<hr></blockquote>


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Old 08-11-2000, 04:08 AM   #10
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom bombadill is Tulkas!!!

I`ve said this before on another thread, but I think that Tom was created during the Ainulindale to act as a guardian. Given his affinity for trees, perhaps Yavanna was responsible.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>
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Old 08-11-2000, 05:32 AM   #11
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom bombadill is Tulkas!!!

And I previously supposed that he was not created with the Ainulindale but was injected into Ea by Iluvatar himself, separate from the Music.

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Old 08-11-2000, 09:54 AM   #12
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Tom

I think TOm was a maia. The power of the ring does not effect him, I.e. make him invisible, as it doesn't sauron who was also a maia. But what does Tom do in the story...friends of the animals and plants and stuff, which suggest one of Yavanna's creations or underlings. BUt he is also, very powerfull and destroys the wraiths or whateveer in the BArrowdowns, this suggests someone else, and underling of Tulkas and his jollieness. I do not belive that TOm was Tulkas because he played a small role in the Battles at the end which would probably have drawn TUlkas too. But of his location so close to the barrow-downs, is interseting. A guard of the un-dead, and spirits that were there. If im not mistaken and correct me if Im wrong the barrow-downs were from the war with the witch angmar, maybe Tom was a helper in that war from the undieing land and stayed. Or maybe a guardian of the spirits there? sent from Mandos? JUst a though?

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Old 08-11-2000, 10:09 AM   #13
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tom

It has even been suggested (not by me) that TB was a wight himself. But that's pretty silly.

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Old 08-11-2000, 10:15 AM   #14
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> jkd

http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.htmlwww.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html</a>
Is a link to a paper on Tom. In real life Tom was a creation of Tolkien in a poem. Tolkien new of the discord Tom caused readers yet he didn't say apologise, he just mentioned it 3 times. I feel tolkien knew of TOm and his purpose and origin, but that was only for him. Tom was a creation of Tolkien, maybe Tom was also a creation of LLuavatar(sp?) A link to the beauty of the world for the creator to see the beuty(sp?) of nature and the valar's creations and the altering of the children of llavatar? Or maybe he was the eyees of the Valar? Gandalf talked long with him, maybe of things to come or the will of the valar. However I feel Tom was special, a viewer of good things and nothing more. HIs role in the music of anuir was maybe the transcriber, or watcher. It was said that if sauron won there would bee nothing left for Tom? So I feel is a devine watcher, for who I don't know but maybe Manwe, or the creator or maybe for Mandos, it must get lonley in those halls? A question to all the scholors were the hobbits warned or told t excpect Tom by gandalf or was the encounter by chance?

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Old 08-11-2000, 02:59 PM   #15
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: appropriation

I have often wondered if Tom operates in ME rather like the Vanir gods did in late-Nordic mythology or the Eumenides did in classical Hellenic? I understand that both were remnant elements of indigenous mythic cultures who were in the process of being subordinated to the myths of the next dominant culture in a historical time/place. (Of course this gets really interesting in the Eddas where Christianity is in the process of co-opting/overwriting Aesir-myths while one can still see the unfinished process of the Aesir-myths similarly digesting Vanir-myths.) Or think of the (Pagan-Christian) medieval culture clashes in Gawain or in Beowulf, etc.
Whatever else LotR is, it is a record of JRRT's fascination with the epic process. So I always thought that Bombadil was a remnant of the prior indigenous ethos, still extant in ME despite the colonization of that place by the Eldar and the Edain and their dominant mythos.
We know (for instance) that the Barrow Downs were holy places before the coming of Arnor and that the Dunedain of Arthedain and Cardolan interred their own royalty there appropriating their power and mystery in much the way that Aristophanes transformed the Eumenides into the Erinyes or the Eddist appropriated Frey, Freya, et al. &quot;into&quot; the Aesir-mythos. Or the Temple mount as a Canaanite holy place, then an Israelite, then a Christian, then a Muslim, etc.
In this sense, Tom Bombadil may have really had an independent existence. He might really have been there as a god of the guys who were in ME before it was colonized by people who believed in Iluvatar and his creation myth. And they weren't all gone yet and (so) neither was he. Nor do I think that this would be alien to JRRT. Although he was a committed Catholic, he was also a committed student of epic and I think that this explanation sits well with the patterns of western epic. (It is also what seems to me to be going on with the whole Stone of Erech thing.)
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(Mind you, I still say the real impetus for Tom was young Priscilla's doll and her demand that Tom go in the story. This is just how I grapple with why we got the particular Tom that we did.)

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Old 08-12-2000, 04:45 AM   #16
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: appropriation

Yes... yes...

Besides that he was a guardian, maybe he kept the valar updated on the happenings of ME.

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Old 08-12-2000, 09:37 PM   #17
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: appropriation

damn galpsi you make me feel so ignorant<img src=frown.gif ALT=""> Anyways I agree Tom was put in their for some earthy reason (kid) but its always a good discussion for his purpose in Arda. So anyone else got an idea, do you agree with the papers suggestion of Aule(sp?) its late<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> I don't because it seems to me that Aule main purpose or theme was creation, alothough he liked the little people I don't see Tom as the creating type o' guy? Anyone else got some input?

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Old 08-12-2000, 09:53 PM   #18
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: appropriation

They don't call me the unquiet dead for nothing. Actually all that talk is just part of a deal between the wight and me. If I post enough lines to make it look like we've got a lot of traffic, I get a modest kick-back from the Polariod account advertising on the main page.
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p.s. seriously RK, is that ad some crappy knock-off or are the geniuses from Polaroid running a big typo on the site?

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Old 08-12-2000, 10:07 PM   #19
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Rerof. galpsi

yes sometimes galpsi's post can harken back to the lectures at university, but his comments stimulate and if you can read between the lines the simple answers are there: badgers.

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Old 08-13-2000, 01:29 AM   #20
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Rerof. galpsi



</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 8/13/00 2:58:30 pm
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Old 08-13-2000, 06:40 AM   #21
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Rerof. galpsi

What is that, professor? Something you made from a coconut?

The Polaroid Ad is actually some long distance company giving away cameras for people that change to them. But I don't run the ad campaigns, I just show 'em.

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Old 08-13-2000, 12:30 PM   #22
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Rerof. galpsi

I'm not making a radio to get off the island, and that's not a futuristic schematic. It's just that your furstunken black background threw my badgers into counter-relief.

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Old 08-13-2000, 12:59 PM   #23
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Rerof. galpsi

I have rescued your badgers from the darkness of the barrow!

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Old 08-13-2000, 02:50 PM   #24
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Rerof. galpsi

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great: yet they must not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born before the world and are older than than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for they had not somewhat to do with its making, so that for the most part a play for them...&quot;<hr></blockquote>
I'm just reading Book of Lost Tales, and that section really made me think of Tom Bombadil. I know that since the whole canon thing has come up so much lately BOLT can't be too reliable, but it all seemed to fit.
This might explain those mysterious hintings about him being before the hills and the trees, him being first, and him leaving last as he came first. It also might explain why the ring has no power over him: the ring is of the world, and so it cannot control Bombadil. Lastly, the whole thing about them laughing at the world would definitely make sense as to why he's always laughing, singing, and making light of such serious topics (the ring).

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Old 08-13-2000, 07:45 PM   #25
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Ya I read

Thats excatly what I just read and marked off to put up here. Although I feel/wish he had a greater purpose. Tom just seems to be very interesting?

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Old 08-14-2000, 02:22 AM   #26
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ya I read

I quite agree with you. That passage really does seem to evoke Tom. If he was, in fact, a brownie, fay, or whatever, that seems to make him a &quot;lesser Vala&quot; according to a passage two paragraphs earlier where analogous sylphs were so classified.
btw, thanks, Ron, for fixing my badgers!

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000201>galpsi</A> at: 8/14/00 4:24:08 am
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Old 08-15-2000, 07:43 AM   #27
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> his woman

Goldberry, i just re-read the part on Tom. His wife is an elf right? Maybe this was another one of those miair, elf relationship with goldberry as the elf and Tom as the god, and their

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Old 08-15-2000, 11:01 AM   #28
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: his woman

Goldberry is the `daughter of the River`. I think she is classed as a Maia.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>
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Old 08-15-2000, 07:21 PM   #29
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> I disagree

She seemed interested in the elfs, and frodo called her an elf-queen.

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Old 08-15-2000, 08:26 PM   #30
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: I disagree

I guess that I'm with Taimar on this -- at least in as far as thinking that she is the Withywindle's daughter -- and thereby not an elf. I'm not inclined to think her a maia, however. I make her a sprite, by virtue of her being a river-daughter (and following the previous logic of the BoLT, I guess that that makes her a lesser vala, though I personally think that &quot;sprite&quot; is identification enough).
As far as her elfin identity, among the first things JRRT says of Goldberry is that she made the hobbits feel as if they were <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;folk that, knocking at a cottage door to beg for a drink of water, have been answered by a fair young elf-queen...&quot;<hr></blockquote>
Because this is a simile, the very logic of English comparative usage maintains that she is not literally a fair young elf-queen, but rather is like a fair young elf-queen.

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Old 08-16-2000, 10:48 AM   #31
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: I disagree

But Goldberry's mother was a servant of Ulmo, a maia!

At least Goldberry was a half-maia, I daresay!

Perhaps half-maia, half-elf?

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Old 10-10-2000, 05:26 PM   #32
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Hm

I have heard several theories. One, that he was in a sense Melkor, and I have yet to read that essay which I hope will be stupid. Cause if it is true, about the glimmer in his eye at the mere mention of the Nerzgul, then I shall heartily laugh, and I'll laugh anyway. Another is that he is a Maiar, and another &quot;insane&quot; one would be that he is Iluvatar. Heh. Who really knows?

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Old 11-21-2000, 10:47 AM   #33
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Just to refresh all that was said about the subject

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them.
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Old 11-21-2000, 02:41 PM   #34
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: just to refresh

Good idea, H-I. But lets keep all new comments to the more current thread. We don't want two active topics on the same subject.

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