The Middle Earth Popularity Cup

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Tuor

Since Sauron made the short-sighted mistake of linking his power and nearly all his existence into a small thing that could be taken from him and destroyed, while Tuor may have been the only mortal to be granted the Elven kind of immortality. Plenty of people have made ill-fated "doomsday weapons" (though perhaps Sauron has the distinction of being the first), while Tuor did what no one else has, before or since. As far as we know.

[mormegil]

Skip, you may want to consider upping the vote total or making a time limit as this thread gains in popularity. I'm not sure you knew what you started. Some of us, me and others, have a lot of fun here and this will continue to grow. My recommendation is have at least 10 votes or 1 full 24 hour period.

[the phantom]

Tuor and Sauron are both heavy hitters. I'm sad to see them matched up in the first round. Oh well- a decision must be made.

Tuor was a good person, and certainly achieved stature through his wisdom and might. But let's be honest here... Sauron destroyed the most powerful civilization man ever built (Numenor).

And if that wasn't enough, then he brought about the death of Gil Galad, the death of Elendil, coordinated the fall of the kingdom of Arnor, and very nearly took over the world!

The only reason why Sauron didn't take over all of Middle Earth was divine intervention. Remember folks, Frodo failed to destroy the Ring. Sauron won. But then Eru stuck his hand in and whoops- Gollum trips into the lava. And Gandalf, the greatest mover against Sauron, was dead and gone, but Eru sent him back with a power boost.

In other words, God himself had to step in and give the good guys a helping hand to beat Sauron. That's pretty darn dominating.

And lastly, without Sauron there would be no Tol-In-Gaurhoth, i.e. NO WEREWOLF GAMES on the Downs!! I think that was his greatest act.

++Sauron

[skip spence]

Glad you're enjoying the thread, I thought it would fall flat on its face there for a while. How about this, I set a deadline, let's say 12.00 AM board-time, and give each voting-session 24 hours to conclude. If none of the characters has received 5 votes by then, the voting will be allowed to continue until one of them does. If a characters or both receive 5 votes or more before that deadline, voting will be allowed to continue until the deadline passes. How's that?

If you're okay with this arrangement the deadline of the Sauron-Tuor voting will be tomorrow at 12.00 AM board-time (I dunno which time-zone that is).

[Thinlómien]

++Sauron

He's a werewolf!

I mean... it's serious this time.

But anyway, Tuor must be one of the most boring heroes in Tolkien's work. Really, what is there in him? However mighty warrior he was, he strikes me as a loser with very little personality or anything interesting. Okay, he had a special task and was the special favourite of Ulmo, my favourite Vala, but I'm afraid that's not enough to make him interesting in any way. He just lacks distinctive personality, that's the problem.

Sauron, on the other hand.... he's twisted. He's rather boring maybe in LotR as he's reduced to being merely "the enemy", but in the Silmarillion and the UT he's gory and very fascinating... All that cunning, all those beautiful lies, the immense charisma, the extreme cruelty (Gorlim and Eilinel - that's really the most horror stuff Tolkien ever wrote) and of course, he was the lord of werewolves and also, a mighty singer. You've got to admit he was pretty darn cool before he became very boringly just "the Dark Lord". (Also, I love the name "the Necromancer", more so actually in the Finnish translation. It's been translated with the word that corresponds to "witch" and using it of men is totally appropriate, but rather rare. It always intrigued me. Also, Dol Gûldur is just really creepy however little we know about it...)

edit: xed with tp and skip - skippie, that arrangement sounds good

[Aganzir]

Skippie, when you scroll down the page to see the Downs clock, you also see which timezone you're in (GMT +1 I believe, since we are GMT +2).

++ Tuor

He's one of my favourite characters; his story has always had a certain appeal to me. I like him for his life as an outlaw and his wanderings, and the sea aspect is also great - I just love Nevrast. Besides, Idril & Tuor's story is definitely my favourite of the great love stories in Middle-earth.
Sauron is, after all, quite an... empty character, who lacked a will of his own and was lured by Morgoth. I don't know, it's just a bit hard to take a baddie seriously when he's but a puppet to his master of old.

edit: xed with Loomy

[Morthoron]

Tuor? Bah! He led a charmed life, got the elf girl and lived happily ever after with little or no energy expended.

I will have to go with ++Sauron, but only up to the point where he escaped the wreck of Numenor. After that, he is a faceless evil and rather boring.

[skip spence]

I will also vote.

While Lommy (yes, that Gorlim and Eilinel episode was delightfully diabolical) and the Phantom (I agree, on a level playing-field Sauron would have won but Eru messed things up for him real good) have come up with great arguments in favour of Sauron, I still have to side with Tuor. He's not boring to me at all and I feel I get into his head pretty well reading the long prose-tale. I, like Aganzir, enjoy his wanderings as an outlaw in the wild, his appreciation of the beauty of Middle Earth, particularly the sea, and his strong desire for freedom. It's a real shame JRRT never got around to finish the Tuor-tale.

Unlike other good characters such as Aragorn and Faramir, Tuor doesn't do "the right thing" as a natural necessity either; his basic character is quite like his cousin Turin I think, but unlike him he learns from mistakes and accepts good advice, making him grow.

++Tuor

Originally Posted by Lommy

That arrangement sounds good

So be it then.

[mormegil]

Sauron is now 5 and Tuor 4

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Very astute observation by Morthothon

++ Mim

To me. in many respects he is reminiscent of Shylock in the Merchant of Venice, a tragic figure caught up in revenge and grief. He's more of a layered character than Pippin,

As for this match, guess who?
+ + Tuor

Hey, the guy had a tough childhood and adolescence, but kept
his cool way better then his hothead cousin.

Oh, and Skip Spence, how could that great conversationalist and all around
bon vivant Smaug be left out of the contest?

[skip spence]

Just a heads-up that the voting deadline (yes, there is a deadline now, check the op for more info) will pass in a little more than 2 hours at 12.00 AM board-time. Currently the standing is Sauron 5 Tuor 5. With no further votes Sauron will progress however as he was the first to reach 5. There's still a chance for you to change that though!

Originally Posted by Tuor

Oh, and Skip Spence, how could that great conversationalist and all around
bon vivant Smaug be left out of the contest?

There are so many interesting characters in Tolkien's works and some are going to be left out unless you add a round. The next step for an expansion would be 64 participants however and I think that's too many. As it is Glaurung is in but Smaug isn't. I have been known to give in to popular demand though and I do take bribes.

[skip spence]

That's it, Tuor is eliminated. It was close but Sauron will tell him that it matters not whether it's by inches or a mile, winning is winning.

Moving on to Match 5 of round 1 we have Bilbo "Mad" Baggins, The Hobbit himself, versus Fëanor's eldest son Maedhros, torn between his noble intentions and the Oath he took.

Bilbo Baggins vs. Maedhros

Voting will be allowed until 12.00 Am tomorrow board time.

[Thinlómien]

There is no question here!

++Maedhros

He might be my favourite Tolkien character ever. Like I said already, I tend to like Tolkien's less black-and-white characters. I don't particularily like baddies since they tend to be too evil, heroes are often too pure and perfect for me, morally ambiguous "grey" characters often strike me as spineless or annoying, but heroes with faults are the best. You can admire them and be intrigued by them, but you can also relate with them and also, they don't annoy you with their paper-thin or edgeless character. And for me, indeed, Maedhros is one of those "faulty heroes".

He has many great qualities. He has the attractive Noldorin temperament and pride and "inner fire", but he's not a foolish jerk like many of his kinsmen (*coughhisfathercough*). He can admit his mistakes and give way to others - he's surely the best negotiator of the seven brothers (Maglor would stand a chance with all his empathy, but I don't think he has the political cunning of his elder brother). Maedhros is a natural leader and also great warrior - besides, he lost his hand and leanred to fight again, isn't that just awesome? I love the big contradiction is character and his inner fight - the desire for the Silmaril, the pride, the stubbornness, the temperament and the deep sense of duty that drive him to the last desperate attempt, although he is wise, noble and gentle enough to know he's doing wrong.

Lastly, Maedhros features in two of the coolest scenes in whole Sil. I always, always, get a chill run down my spine of the scene of burning the ships in Losgar and Maedhros's disapproval of it (this tells also of his great character, I think). Also, Maedhros's and Fingon's deep friendship and Fingon's valiant and desperate mission to save his friend always touched me too.

Oh, this thread is really horrible. It makes me regress to a fan girl level. (Speaking of which, I may tell you a secret here... I never wrote any "heroine falls in love with Tolkien's hero X" fan fics, but if I had, I have no doubt "hero X" would have been Maedhros... )

And lastly, I want to say that I really have nothing against Bilbo - on the contrary. He's an adorable fellow and I like him very much. Maedhros just happens to be my special favourite...

[mormegil]

Ya old Bobo Baggins is about as worthless a character as they come. Really what has he done for me lately? No I can't stand his smug little smile. He thinks he's so big and cool for being so old but he really didn't do it on his own now did he. Okay and what kind of dufus can posses the ultimate ring of power for so long and not even realize it? The only other person was Gollum and he's just a nit-wit.

++Maedhros
Plus Maedhros is just plain awesome, the only direct relation to Feanor I like, but I hate his dad, okay maglor isn't bad either.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Given this thread has a "popularity" theme this
match is a tough call. Even Maedhros is in a sense
a forerunner of Thief Baggins in trying to "steal" two silmarils
since the sons of Feanor had forfeited a legitimate call on
them.(Yes, everyone tries to steal from poor Smaug, Gollum,
and Sauron).

But Maedros' flaws are more deep rooted then Frodo's Uncle
and Bilbo (other then his shocking animus towards
noble dragons) has more of an ability to not just want to be
generous and show magnanimity but to actually do so, so

+ + Bilbo, a.k.a. Thief Baggins

[Gollum the Great]

You seem to have unusual views of certain characters, morm. If you don't mind me saying so.
But I can't pick between these two. I like Bilbo, but considering that Maedhros "is just plain awesome" and another guy I like, I can't choose. I like everyone in Middle-Earth.

[Morthoron]

++Bilbo by default. I'm not a big fan of the Hobbitish race, but Bilbo is, after all, Bilbo (and confusticate, flummoxed and bebother are three of my favorite words).

Sorry Lommie, but the sons of Feanor are all gutless cowards in my book. And I'm particularly disappointed in Maedhros and Maglor, who at least showed common sense and tact at times (unlike their more haughty and contemptible brothers, like Celegorm and Caranthir). Unless one is making the claim that one is utterly unable to overcome fate, and incapable of breaking a vow, then Maedhros could have denied his father and the vow at the very end, not committed blatant murder, and in a small way atoned for the sins of his family (which would have stood him in better stead when being judged by Mandos).

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Unless one is making the claim that one is utterly unable to overcome fate, and incapable of breaking a vow, then Maedhros could have denied his father and the vow at the very end, not committed blatant murder, and in a small way atoned for the sins of his family (which would have stood him in better stead when being judged by Mandos).

Ah, I guess that's why I like him so much. Because he "failed", in the end. So no perfect heroism there...

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

++Bilbo by default. I'm not a big fan of the Hobbitish race, but Bilbo is, after all, Bilbo (and confusticate, flummoxed and bebother are three of my favorite words).

Sorry Lommie, but the sons of Feanor are all gutless cowards in my book. And I'm particularly disappointed in Maedhros and Maglor, who at least showed common sense and tact at times (unlike their more haughty and contemptible brothers, like Celegorm and Caranthir). Unless one is making the claim that one is utterly unable to overcome fate, and incapable of breaking a vow, then Maedhros could have denied his father and the vow at the very end, not committed blatant murder, and in a small way atoned for the sins of his family (which would have stood him in better stead when being judged by Mandos).

And yet you vote Sauron???

[the phantom]

Maedhros was a good chap ensnared by a terrible doom.

He showed his character when he did not want to burn the ships, and again when he attempted to make peace with various other Lords. In addition, after King Fingolfin kicked the bucket, though the "High Kingship" passed to Fingon, Maedhros was the true top dog after that.

It was he that organized the resistance to Morgoth, and it was the Union of Maedhros, not Fingon, who forced Morgoth to empty Angband.

In the end he was a victim of a rash decision he had made as a youth- making his oath, and naming Eru in it.

In his mind, he simply had to attempt to gain the Silmarils if they were not yielded to him, for he had sworn upon God that he would do so. Without that one mistake, the oath, the other bad things would not have happened.

So, can we truly wipe out all of his good deeds because of one youthful mistake? Especially since it was the Valar who had bungled the whole Melkor-running-free situation which led to everything else?

++Maedhros

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mormegil

And yet you vote Sauron???

Yes. Your point is what? We are talking popularity, and why you like or dislike the characters. Sauron is a better villain than Maedhros is a hero. *shrugs*

To me, Maedhros maintaining his cursed vow through several separate slaughters of his kindred is not excusable, even if he supposedly was unable to break his vow and blindly went on killing, unable to stop himself (if he indeed could not stop because of the vow, then he was a mere puppet and therefore worthless). He did not ever say enough is enough, never prevented forcibly the acts of his brothers, and killed himself rather than surrender the Silmaril. Like Judas, his committing suicide rather than repenting is a mortal sin (even though I gave up being Catholic decades ago).

Several great and heroic characters were able to refuse the One Ring (particularly Galadriel to whom it was offered freely, or Faramir), or give it up on their own accord (Bilbo and Sam), and the One Ring had a far more evilly coercive and 'addictive' effect than the Silmarils (which are. of course, supposedly 'holy gems').

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Yes. Your point is what?

I didn't know I had one

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

In his mind, he simply had to attempt to gain the Silmarils if they were not yielded to him, for he had sworn upon God that he would do so. Without that one mistake, the oath, the other bad things would not have happened.

Which just brings a nice added piece of this Tolkienish fatalistic universe and its romantic heroes...

I should be the literal guy and thence vote for Bilbo but even if I really like him as a character - and my personal liking for how a life should be lead and what is important are much closer to Bilbo than Maedhros - I must confess there is certain romantic grandeur (with the bravery, shortcomings, anguish and all that) in Maedhros that just catch the imagination. And the hopeless and terrible quest for the Silmarils in the end just rise him above many. (only the end-solution I found a bit dull; burning jewel and oath undone & suicide... blah how typical... )

But sure for me it will be...

++ Maedhros

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

My personal choice would be

++Bilbo

Say what, isn't it enough for you that I vote for a Hobbit rather than for an Elf... but really, well, for me, Maedhros, of all Fëanor's sons, was one of the least interesting. I have nothing against his character, quite the contrary, but from the point of being literally interesting for me, he loses to Mr. B. a long way. Bilbo Baggins - as long as he is on the scene, in particular during the whole Hobbit and later at the beginning of LotR, still (when he's becoming a bit old and sleepy it isn't as interesting anymore ), is just a great character. In general, I tend to dislike main heroes just because they are main heroes (which is usually connected with being either perfect or in a way silly, like Harry Potter), but Bilbo (and Frodo, although he is closer to the edge with this) is something different. And the main thing is the "atmosphere" around him, although it may be the atmosphere of whole The Hobbit, but it is this sort-of-fairy-tale, but different, not THAT fairy-tale, it is more mundane more down-to-earth, but also Dragons and Dwarves and autumn sun and Men and Goblins rather than the High Power Of Noldor Long Sword Of Heavenly Flame +15 Hail Ye To The Legendary Legends Of Legendariest Legendary Kings Of Old. You can say it also this way: I would have liked far more (and btw also find it far likely) to meet Bilbo Baggins in a field outside the city near my house than to meet Maedhros there.
Maedhros makes me think of the music of Blind Guardian, which, despite it being a good music, is something that lacks... depth (?) for me (in that case, Bilbo Baggins is Pink Floyd ). It is the strong words of Sorrow, Pride, Loss and Bravery, which are strong when being shouted, but if you go away from the shouting, they are pronounced with no substance. Maedhros has, unfortunately for him, a big chance to become a character in an animated TV series, colorful, in the "modern" way portrayed also as a hero with his own flaws, but even these flaws will be overaccented and he will be nothing more than these four or five character traits which make everything that he is. Now I am exaggerating it, of course, but intentionally: he can be summed into a few words for me, and I have to work hard to see a real character behind him.

[Nerwen]

It's interesting to see different people's takes on the characters... I abstained from voting this round because I like both contestants equally– in completely different ways.

Now, looking at the previous round, I see that four out of the five who voted for Sauron are Tol-in-Gaurhoth-ites.

skip, this is a clear conflict of interest!

[Lalwendë]

++ Bilbo.

Duh.

Of course I'm going to vote Bilbo, being his Number One Fan. What's not to like? He's a Hobbit and therefore cooler than any Elf; he's almost the embodiment of Tolkien himself; he's witty; he's so English it hurts; and he's the one who found that ring.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Now I am exaggerating it, of course, but intentionally: he can be summed into a few words for me, and I have to work hard to see a real character behind him.

Your sight is just limited...

Originally Posted by Morth

Like Judas, his committing suicide rather than repenting is a mortal sin (even though I gave up being Catholic decades ago).

Oh but you must understand that's not an argument that will convince everybody - for example I think that Judas is very fascinating as a character...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Your sight is just limited...

Gah. I could say the same about your view of Tuor

[Groin Redbeard]

I have got to run to class here in a moment so I'll make it short and sweet.

Bilbo- a nobody who is found by destiny to go on a great journey (the greatest journey in my mind) and unintentionally finds the greatest evil in the world and keeps it from being found by the enemy. He is the forerunner of the great Ring bearer. Over all a delightful character.

Maedhros- an alright character, he was still foolish to follow his fathers example. Overall, not much a character, and is grossely overated because he lost his poor little hand.

++Bilbo

[Aganzir]

++ Maedhros

Shouldn't all you lefties vote for him?

My reasons for liking him are pretty much mentioned already (nothing beats the pride of the sons of Fëanor), although he's nothing like one of my favourite characters. Mostly it's just that Bilbo annoys me, in a way. Well yes he's an alright old chap but I don't like his.. greed. Laziness. Ignorance. Selfishness. All those traits were visible in the Bilbo of The Hobbit, and I possess all of them to some extent, myself, so maybe I shouldn't complain about them.
I don't even really know why, I just prefer Maedhros.

[Aganzir]

Oh and I also want to add that while Frodo grew up during his journey, Bilbo didn't. At all. Which annoys me.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Oh and I also want to add that while Frodo grew up during his journey, Bilbo didn't. At all. Which annoys me.

Speaking of that, that is perhaps something I like on him, to a certain extent... (Although of course, he did grow up at least in some way... or rather... he didn't grow up, he merely found out some traits of his he already had, only did not come into a situation where they would show, that is it. So indeed, he didn't seem to grow up.)

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

and he's the one who found that ring.

Not truly, it was Deagol...

[skip spence]

The interesting thing about the Oath is what would have happened if someone broke it. Fëanor and his sons were said to have named the One and calling everlasting darkness upon them if they didn't keep it. Is that just saying that they really really promised, honest to God! or was there something more to it? The former, I think. I've a feeling Eru wouldn't strike them down in anger if they broke the Oath, nor would Manwe call everlasting darkness over them, although they named him as witness. No, they would applaud it.

It's probably more the case of them not wanting to break a promise and not do what they said they would. Not break their word, no matter what. Even though Meadhros knew that breaking the Oath would be the good thing to do, probably the only possible path towards healing and salvation, he still chose to stay true to his word and follow the darker path, however grim and evil end it led to.

Bilbo? I like him alright. It's just hard to compete with the poetic grandeur of Maedhros.

++Maedhros

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Bilbo- a nobody who is found by destiny to go on a great journey (the greatest journey in my mind) and unintentionally finds the greatest evil in the world and keeps it from being found by the enemy.

Isn't this just a banal fantasy of the nerds? "One day I will also rule the world with my might even if nobody pays attention to me in this RL of mine"?

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

My reasons for liking him are pretty much mentioned already (nothing beats the pride of the sons of Fëanor)...

Wouldn't this be a bad thing? There is an old (and I do mean oold) saying in my country: "Pride has hurt, starved, and killed than all the other injustices in the world combined." This remark certainly fits Feanor and his sons, their petty pride causing the death of many a good man, elf, and dwarf alike.

[skip spence]

The deadline has passed and Maedhros won it by six votes to five. We say bye bye Bilbo, close but no cigar!


The next encounter promises to be as exiting as the previous one. The leader of the Dwarven expedition to the Lonely Mountain versus the father of dragons:

Glaurung vs. Thorin Oakenshield

[mormegil]

Glaurung's breath stinks really bad...just trust me.

++Thorin

[Lalwendë]

++Glaurung

He's a Dragon. No contest.

Dragons are The Coolest Thing Ever.

Shame he was up against Thorin who is also very, very cool and bad-tempered and bearded and things that I usually like....but Dragons win.

Originally Posted by mormegil

Not truly, it was Deagol...

But do you really think if Gollum had kept it that it would ever have been 'dealt with'? That's what was important to me

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Isn't this just a banal fantasy of the nerds? "One day I will also rule the world with my might even if nobody pays attention to me in this RL of mine"?

[Groin Redbeard]

This dwarf is described as being very haughty, stern, and officious. He has a talent for singing and can play the harp. He wears a gold chain and has a very long beard. He refers to his homes in the Blue Mountains as "poor lodgings in exile." Even though he is quite old (even for a Dwarf) by the time of The Hobbit, he is very capable and a cunning warrior, if not a particularly inspiring or clever leader. I love the way he leads his men with Gandalf, and then without the wizards help, to reclaim their lost kingdom of Erebor (a moon-shot you might say). Although Thorin's character is disappointing at times, I still think that he was overall right in his assumptions. Not really a great leader, but he was a great Dwarf nonetheless.

++Thorin