The Middle Earth Popularity Cup

[Tuor in Gondolin]

This will take some thought. Book Elrond vs. Eowyn
(book or movie) is close, but not movie Agent Elrond .

[Aganzir]

++ Elrond

I despise a woman who would die because the random man she had a crush on didn't love her in return. And her ending is lame. Female characters like that annoy me. A male character like that would annoy me as well, but not as much because he wouldn't fit so well inside the man stereotype.

On the other hand, Elrond was the son of Eärendil (yet one fave character) and was raised by the sons of Fëanor. And all that First Age stuff. And Second Age.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Since the theme here is "popularity" I'll go with
+ + Eowyn .

Once she got over her no doubt
testosterone pill popping valkeyrie phase she'd be
a lot more fun at parties then Elrond, who no doubt
continued to suffer from early childhood
kidnapped trauma syndrome.

[the phantom]

This is one of the easiest match-ups I've seen.

Elrond is the descendent of the Kings of the Noldor, the Kings of the Sindar, the House of Hador, and the House of Beor. He spent time with the sons of Feanor (I love them), fought beside Gil-galad, and founded the refuge of Rivendell.

And after retiring from warfare, he became the greatest healer in Middle Earth.

It is because of Elrond that there is a King in Gondor, for he preserved the line of Isildur over many years, and even took in Aragorn and raised him as a son.

He is one of the wisest and most learned in lore of any in Middle Earth. The council which decided the fate of the Ring wasn't in Lothlorien, or Minas Tirith- it was at Elrond's house.

And finally, the trump card-

Elrond controls a flippin RIVER! Who the heck in Middle Earth can do that? Must be that Ainu blood.

Elrond is amazing. And compared to most all of the other big-time Elves, he is much less proud.

++Elrond

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Elrond controls a flippin RIVER! Who the heck in Middle Earth can do that? Must be that Ainu blood.

No, it's the flippin Ring. But really, this match ain't easy. Both of the contestants have their pros and cons. I may actually abstain from voting this time. Neither of them is the "top", but they are both pretty good folks. I may as well toss a coin

[Lalwendë]

Hmmm, I'm not that fussed on either character in the same way as I have huge obsessions with characters like Bilbo, Saruman, Tom and Gandalf...though both are rather interesting in their own right.

Elrond is preferable to my tastes in The Hobbit, where he comes across as more friendly and wise and part of faerie. He's a little too Authoritarian in LotR. I maintain he does have a beard though

Eowyn can be annoying in that she is given some important work to do by Theoden but wants to enact her Amazon fantasies. However she's also touchingly determined to do her bit if you look at her another way. And I'm not bothered by her settling down with Faramir, just jealous Hmmm....

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Legate

No, it's the flippin Ring.

I don't recall that Vilya had anything to do with river control. The Elven rings were not designed to be used as weapons, but as instruments of preservation. They didn't grant super-powers.

Elrond controlling a river is simply Elrond controlling a river. He had crazy skills.

[mormegil]

++Elrond

The whole agent Smith thing and Eowyn's personal hygiene leaves much to be desired.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I was never overly fond of Eowyn and I always found the counsil of Elrond one of the most interesting parts of the books, I also think that Elrond is a nice charachter. . . probably not a favourit, but he is allright

If we were talking about the films, then I find them both a bit annoying, but Eowyn less so.

++Elrond

[Gollum the Great]

++Elrond

He makes Muruvor, which I've always wanted to try. Probably better than any of the energy drinks I have.

[Nerwen]

++Eowyn.

I was a tomboy...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Eowyn

Because she offed the Witch King while Elrond sat at home. In fact, even when he didn't sit at home, I don't recall that Elrond really accomplished anything quite so remarkable.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

++Eowyn

Because she offed the Witch King while Elrond sat at home. In fact, even when he didn't sit at home, I don't recall that Elrond really accomplished anything quite so remarkable.

Please...she was merely suicidal and hoped to accomplish this in an 'assisted' fashion. It was a cowardly way out and she thought it would have succeeded but she failed.


(To clarify to everybody who might wonder, I have a lot of fun with this so please don't read too much into what I say)

[the phantom]

Because she offed the Witch King

According to the book, she just happened to be the person standing there when Merry's magic anti-Witch King sword rendered the Witch King easily killable. Anyone could have killed him in that moment.

Before Merry saved her skin, Eowyn was hurt on the ground and the Witch King was swinging his mace down for the killing blow.

while Elrond sat at home

He had already done the whole battle thing in the second age. He retired and became a healer. And with the Elves, those who specialized in healing abstained from war, for it was believed that the taking of life hindered their healing skills.

And without his healing skills- no Frodo.

And without his care and protection, no Aragorn.

Without Elrond, game over. Evil wins.

[skip spence]

Oh I find Eowyn quite touching, and she is a clever lass at that. Just reread her dialogue with Aragorn in "The Passing Of The Grey Company" and while Aragorn in a sense is right to tell her to stay behind she always finds good arguments in her favour. She doesn't let him tell her off and it's really heartfelt too. When she rode out to find death (now she wasn't actually seeking death actively, she just didn't fear it) she did it thinking that Aragorn, whom she loved, was lost in the Path Of The Dead. In this situation she'd rather fight at the side of her brother and father than wait for them to return which they probably won't, she knows that.

Elrond I'm sure is a fascinating character once you get to know him, having seen three Ages of the world and having been heavily involved in two military victories against Sauron that would've made the battles in LotR look like minor skirmishes. But we never get to know him, do we? He has no discernible personality.

++Eowyn

Edit: The Phantom makes a very good case for Master Elrond, admittedly. I nearly changed my mind there.

[Thinlómien]

Hey, isn't this funny? They both lose their parents, become great warriors and retire to be healers! I never thought of them that way. Ooh, quite interesting...

I don't know, I just cannot decide. I love Éowyn's sorrow, despair and courage, but Elrond is wise, and like Rune pointed out, his council is great, and he too has deep sorrow in his story. And phantom makes a good case for Elrond and skip a good one for Éowyn.

Hmph. Too difficult.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I don't recall that Vilya had anything to do with river control. The Elven rings were not designed to be used as weapons, but as instruments of preservation. They didn't grant super-powers.

It was preservation of Rivendell. I guess the river as border is actually pretty logical, even though usually it wasn't so violent in its manifestation.
Anyway, interesting. It never occured to me to think of it that way - since I remember, it was always the "Ring of Water" for me.

Originally Posted by the phantom

He had already done the whole battle thing in the second age. He retired and became a healer. And with the Elves, those who specialized in healing abstained from war, for it was believed that the taking of life hindered their healing skills.

That's most interesting, and indeed, Elrond was Gil-Galad's page! Now that would be cool just for itself...

Originally Posted by skip spence

When she rode out to find death (now she wasn't actually seeking death actively, she just didn't fear it) she did it thinking that Aragorn, whom she loved, was lost in the Path Of The Dead. In this situation she'd rather fight at the side of her brother and father than wait for them to return which they probably won't, she knows that.

Yes, that's the classic "despair and death" like Éomer's ride on Pelennor, when it really seems that there is nothing but the unstoppable darkness coming. Hey, that's fascinating in its own way. Hm. Great.

I can't make up my mind. And I find it funny as well I may really as well just observe...

[Thinlómien]

I decided that if I try to reason which one of them I like better, I won't get anywhere. So, instead, I decided to go with my gut-feeling of which one of them is my favourite. Therefore, I vote:

++Éowyn

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I decided that if I try to reason which one of them I like better, I won't get anywhere. So, instead, I decided to go with my gut-feeling of which one of them is my favourite.

My problem is that I don't have even the gut feeling

[Lalwendë]

OK, I ought to vote for Eowyn or this contest is going to have no women in it!

However, I am going to vote

++Elrond

Because I was sitting thinking about how cool he is as an Elf who is actually not insular and welcomes all sorts of peoples through his house. He must have been seen as quite strange by your regular Elves, allowing Dwarves in, and even though he could be seen as some Hippy-Meister what with the singing in trees his folk do and his "Hey man, let's all be friends" kind of establishment, he's still less irritating and snooty than most Elves. So he deserves some dibs for that

[A Little Green]

++ Éowyn

I love her. Except that her end always makes me angry, but I consider it not her own fault but Mr. Tolkien's. Apparently a woman has to be shown her proper place in the end which sucks.

Originally Posted by Skip

Elrond I'm sure is a fascinating character once you get to know him, having seen three Ages of the world and having been heavily involved in two military victories against Sauron that would've made the battles in LotR look like minor skirmishes. But we never get to know him, do we? He has no discernible personality.

Exactly - I think that's just why he has never touched me nearly as most others. I know he's a fascinating person and all that, but just knowing it isn't enough - I want to see his personality myself before proceeding to call it fascinating. Elrond just doesn't provoke any feelings in me the way Éowyn does, however fine a man he must be.

[Groin Redbeard]

Now this is a toughy. Elrond is in the book for only three chapters and makes a lasting impression on the reader, mainly after reading the council. His wisdom, kindness, and charity seem to be already apparent without Tolkien saying as much, he's the only elf who I don't find fault with and wholly like.

Eowyn on the other hand contributes much more to the books. She gives us the internal struggle that she is feeling and this gives us much action. Though I do not like her views on women warriors, I think that her character makes up for her little flaws.

++Eowyn

I guess I could never bring myself to vote for an elf.

[Lalwendë]

Why does everyone think Eowyn ends up with a bum deal? She gets Faramir and she gets a certain amount of power that she'd not have had stopping in Rohan, plus she's happy. There's not that much to fight for once the War is over anyway. Sounds alright to me

[skip spence]

Wow, that was close. This match was very reminiscent of the previous one. This time it was Elrond who got a lot of early votes and Eowyn who came back with a vengeance. As was the case with Bombadill, it wasn't enough though. She came back to 7-7, but since Elrond was first to 7 he did just enough to win by a whisker.

[skip spence]

Match 11 of Round 1:

Next up is another woman who often seems to stir up strong feelings, positive or otherwise, amongst fans of Tolkien with a feminist outlook. She is paired up with Merry, the pipeweed connoisseur from Buckland.

Meriadoc Brandybuck vs. Luthien

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Why does everyone think Eowyn ends up with a bum deal? She gets Faramir and she gets a certain amount of power that she'd not have had stopping in Rohan, plus she's happy. There's not that much to fight for once the War is over anyway. Sounds alright to me

Because of the woman cannot be complete until she's married attitude. I don't like it that the whole of her appearence in Lotr seems to be just a quest for love and some tall, dark, handsome man. Her relationship with Faramir was much better than that with Aragorn, but it kind of spoils her story anyway. She would have been much better off as a spinster.

++ Lúthien

I'm not that great a fan of Lúthien either, but I pretty much dislike Merry. Lúthien is another example of a typical Tolkien woman who would give everything for love, and I can't help being annoyed by that.

But then on the other hand she was also independent and daring - unlike Arwen who sat nicely home and waited for Aragorn to claim the throne of Gondor, Lúthien ran away to fulfill her own destiny. Actually the first time I started liking her was on reading the Lay of Leithian:

She wavered, and she stayed her song.
'The road,' she said, 'was wild and long,
but Thingol sent me not, nor knows
what way his rebellious daughter goes.'

And one can't deny that she was quite skilful, what with her magic.

[Thinlómien]

I don't really like Lúthien. She has some pretty cool (see, I'm using that word again ) magic things she does, but otherwise, she doesn't impress me much. I have nothing against it that she is ready to give everything for love, but I've heard Mithalwen's preachings of her selfishness countless times and I can kind of agree.

++Merry

He, on the other hand, has always been one of my favourites. I've always identified with him (well, mostly because my sister was a total Pippin when she was younger and she still is). I love his cheerful and gentle spirit, and it is nice to have a hobbit who has an apparent love for lore and stories but is still not a geek like those Bagginses. Also, Merry seems to be very caring about his friends and good at arranging stuff, probably thanks to his warm down-to-earth attitude. Furthermore, I've always had a thing for leader-type characters, and a leader is exactly what Merry becomes in the end.

Lastly, Merry's relationship with Théoden and Éowyn too is very touching. The following quote (among others) always makes my eyes turn suspiciously moist:

"Good!" said Merry. "Then I would like supper first, and after that a pipe." At that his face clouded. "No, not a pipe. I don't think I'll smoke again."

"Why not?" said Pippin.

"Well," answered Merry slowly. "He is dead. It has brought it all back to me. He said he was sorry he had never had a chance of talking herb-lore with me. Almost the last thing he ever said. I shan't ever be able to smoke again without thinking of him, and that day, Pippin, when he rode up to Isengard and was so polite."

"Smoke then, and think of him!" said Aragorn. "For he was a gentle heart and a great king and kept his oaths; and he rose out of the shadows to a last fair morning. Though your service to him was brief, it should be a memory glad and honourable to the end of your days."

(Too bad really, now I'm having tears in my eyes. But Aragorn's words there are just incredibly beautiful.)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Luthien

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I think this is not as hard as the last one.

++Merry

Merry was, of all the Hobbits, probably the one I liked the most. He was clever, hmm, almost like an elf Which gives him a big bonus in my eyes. He, if anybody, would be the Saruman of the Fellowship. (When I was small, I wanted to make Merry join Saruman and serve in Isengard. Say, wouldn't that be cool? ) And I never got why the silly Pippin had to be the one to get over all this Uruk-hai experience by himself, though:

Merry and he had drawn their swords, but the Orcs did not wish to fight, and had tried only to lay hold of them, even when Merry had cut off several of their arms and hands. Good old
Merry!

But anyway, even from a less-freaky perspective Merry is a great personality, he is very kind and aside from what Lommy quoted above, the RotK and all the things in which he desperately wanted to help: to follow the King, fight the WK to help (or actually, save???) Éowyn... all that is just so touching.

Lúthien is not necessary bad, I would say against the first-look and from-all-sides coming criticism of her as character that we actually know very little about her, at least most of us (haven't read the whole Lay of Leithian in original version, maybe there's something more). But it is true that the little we know is a bit "schematized", so to say... or, rather, to be just, I think it is us who are fitting her into some scheme, but the way she is portrayed kind of asks for schematization. I also guess she suffers a bit, or at least in my eyes, from the "main-hero syndrom": the main hero, if he does not have something special about him (but not the usually "special", but something "specially special"), is never as interesting as the minor characters. And Lúthien is somebody whose tale is recounted or remembered countless times throughout the history of Middle-Earth, and she simply is not (at least from my point of view) interesting enough to "survive" that.

[Groin Redbeard]

Who can turn down a lovable curly haired Brandybuck (so what if Luthien is the most beautiful women that lived)?

++Merry

Undoubtedly the smartest out of all the hobbits. He doesn't posses Frodo's wisdom and understanding, but he does have common sense and can think well when in caught in a jam. Yet for all his bravery he still is a small hobbit who knows nothing of the outside world.

Originally Posted by Merry to Haldir

"I have never been out of my own land before. And if I had known what the world outside was like. I don't think I should have had the heart to leave it."

Makes his loyal nature and steadfast bravery stand out all the more doesn't it?

Are we talking about Luthien after the Silmaril was given to her? Because if we are...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Hmm. Luthien managed to sing so poignantly that she moved Namo to an act of compassion, and Merry not only stood by Eowyn when she faced the Witch King, he gave him the poke in the knee that made his defeat possible. Tossing coin....

++Merry

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

++Luthien

She is one fit bird.

[mormegil]

++ Lúthien

She is rather cute.

[Morthoron]

Hmmm...let's look at my choices here: a wisecracking Hobbit, whose principal feat was to blindsidedly backstab a Nazgul -- or the hottest elf maid of all time, who held her own against Sauron and Morgoth, wore a Silmaril and begot the greatest and most storied family line in all Middle-earth.

++Luthien

[Aganzir]

It seems Lúthien isn't very popular among females. Come on, are you all jealous of her looks?

[Lalwendë]

This was quite an easy one at long last!

++Merry

He's a Hobbit so he automatically beats an Elf of course. But he's also a very likeable chap. He's not as silly as Pippin or as 'away with the fairies' as Frodo, but he's very, very nice and seems like the kind of chap you'd like to have as a friend - reliable and sensible but not a bore!

[skip spence]

++Luthien

If she could move Namo Mandos, the Unmovable, how can I resist? I especially like her in the Lost Tales: her Mata Hari-number in Morgoth's court is an all time classic.

And what's wrong with giving everything for love? Is it preferable to prioritize career and money?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

It seems Lúthien isn't very popular among females. Come on, are you all jealous of her looks?

Not I. I think

++Lúthien

is awesome... but it's still a hard decision, because I like Merry a lot. However, this way I'll annoy Mithalwen.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

It seems Lúthien isn't very popular among females. Come on, are you all jealous of her looks?

I would be more worried of the fact that she seems to be very popular among the males: I bet they all just like her looks.

More seriously though, you may look at it from another perspective: few women can resist Merry's adorableness. For example, I even dreamt that I would like to marry him.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I would be more worried of the fact that she seems to be very popular among the males: I bet they all just like her looks.

Well it certainly isn't her sparkling dialogue and great personality is it? Surely the fact the woman never speaks is a factor.

Aganzir & Lommy - you completely misunderstand Eowyn. Her despair is not caused by Aragorn - he just shuts a door out of it and her happiness is not dependent on Faramir. She has changed within her self which allows her to be happy and with him. She makes her own choice - she chooses life over death and with it accepts a man who loves her for herself. She is far from anti-feminist - it is a rather old fashioned feminist view that you can't have self fulfilment and a happy relationship - and frankly the Faramir- Eowyn relationship is about the only one in all middle earth that seems to have the potential to be truly happy and balanced. Why is choosing to be a healer a cop-out? Do you think women doctors in our age have betrayed the sisterhood? Do you think that Eowyn really wanted to be a career soldier ?