Notions that dispel a lot of the romantic ideas in Middle-Earth

[Knight of Gondor]

We all know that there is a great deal that attracts us to the books (and movies) that has to do with the medieval, romantic ideas of chivalry and knighthood. Middle-Earth is perfectly ideal with its lovely scenery, epic occurrences, and spectacular characters. It makes us want to go there.

But it just kind of came to me last night, and I was thinking about it. There’s a lot of humdrum and ordinary life that goes on behind the scenes, isn’t there?

For instance. The Elves that meet Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin in the forest. They’re traveling along towards the Grey Havens. They’re a rather large group. What happens when one of them has to step off and relieve himself? A Ranger’s life looks pretty cool, but if you think about it, it’d be often enough that a Ranger would have to dig a hole himself! Doesn’t Shadowfax have to stop every once in a while on the race to Gondor?

How about the Rohirrim? Karl Urban discussed how difficult it was to ask to use the bathroom when he was in his riding armor; wonder if it was the same in Middle-Earth?
What about Théoden? Crotchety old fellow could hardly get up, let alone hobble to a toilet. And I hardly think some of my Knight friends in Gondor can easily remove their armor for a quick jog to the men’s room.

Another question one that occurs is the ideas of trade and society. Hobbits are very carefree, but where do they get the money to buy houses, tobacco, ale, food? Bilbo had his riches, but this must mean that the rest of the hobbits had to do some sort of work. Sure, there’s tending fields, bars, and mills, but is that it?

Same with Gondor. What happens there? Do they have money? Do they buy things, or have a trade system?

There’s also the question of the Elves. Do Elves butcher meat? They eat it, obviously, but it just doesn’t sound like an elf to kill an animal and cut it up. And what do they burn for fires? Don’t they love nature, and not wish to harm the trees?

You may mistake me as a mother-earth kind of sniveling greenie nerd. Far from it. As one somewhat popular country song says, “These are just a few questions I had.”

[Lush]

Bodily functions destroy romanticism for those people who cannot quite reconcile them with life itself.

I don't really know if Tolkien had that problem.

For me, a passing mention of an Elf pooping under a rosebush wouldn't really be bothersome. It would, however, be pretty funny.

But the point is, Tolkien wasn't interested in the day-to-day basics of life.

Worrying about Elves pooping under rosebushes occurs probably as the result of a desire to be transplanted to Middle Earth, and the sudden question of "would I really fit in there, if I have to poop"?

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Earendilyon]

Well, I've heard tell that cyclists during tours (like the Tour de France) relieve themselves while riding! So, maybe the Rohirrim and the Gondorian guards also did while on duty?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Please let's not go into possible details! There have been past discussions on practical daily aspects of Middle-earth - perhaps someone can find them and refer to them.

[Knight of Gondor]

By all means! I did not wish to go into crass detail about WHAT kinds of things dispel the grand ideas of Middle-Earth - just whether or not you have the same problem/idea.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Going back to the beginning: I read somewhere (can'r remember where) that the reason ordinary day-to-day routines are not shown is because the war of the ring is necessary, and everything else goes on hold until it has been completed.
(except it was phrased much better)

[Jjudvven]

Yes please, let's not get into any more detail than that. Although I have thought and wondered about this before. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lush]

I don't know if you're aware of this, guys, but a whole lot of academic discourse has occured on the subject of how Tolkien completely excludes bodily functions from his work, though the Norse mythologies that he drew upon were filled with stuff that is apparently too "crass."

I had originally thought that the word "poop" and its connotations stopped being offensive in the 5th grade, but I was mistaken, and I shall flog myself appropriately for this vicious error.

Then again, I am curious to see if anybody has read beyond the afore-mentioned word in my post to see what I was getting at.

If you simply can't bring yourself to do it, I shall understand.

Ultimately it's not up to me to debate Tolkien's choices at a great length, because he was able to produce a satisfying work without including all the elements of the Norse myths (and for many he makes for much better reading than the said texts, myself included).

But to answer Knight's question: No I don't really have that problem per se, because it's an imaginary world after all, and I don't believe that Tolkien must have bothered to imagine it in every detail, so then, neither will I.

[doug*platypus]

So, maybe the Rohirrim and the Gondorian guards also did while on duty?

Request denied! You hold it in, soldier!! Presumably someone would come and relieve a guard for say five minutes every three hours, so that they could.. well, relieve themselves. Guard duty is just one of the reasons we never see Knights of the Citadel drinking Powerade.

But the point is, Tolkien wasn't interested in the day-to-day basics of life.

Ah-ha, Lush, but he was! References to bathing, singing and smoking tend to drive many readers of the books insane. But Knight of Gondor has seemingly trodden into what Tolkien left out of the books entirely... poop. Great thread, Knight.

I would suggest that for someone of his age, and at the time, it would have been completely inappropriate to mention any bodily functions in the Lord of the Rings, or any other of his works. This doesn't mean that Middle-Earth is some idealised world where these aren't necessary. In my opinion, nothing is really lost by not specifically mentioning every time Gimli passes wind (or I'm sure the book would stretch out to 1500 pages at least). I can't think of any passages in the book that made me think "That's impossible. How did they go to the toilet if they were doing that all day?" But I would be very interested if there were such places that you have recognised.

Tolkien left it up to us to fill in the blanks in each character's time. As for the blokes in armour, wouldn't a codpiece be easily removed? There must be a medieval type person out there who can shed light on this.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Going back to the beginning: I read somewhere (can'r remember where) that the reason ordinary day-to-day routines are not shown is because the war of the ring is necessary, and everything else goes on hold until it has been completed.

I know what you mean, but when I first read this I had a sudden vision of Aragorn and Gandalf at the Morannon:

Aragorn: Is the Ring destroyed, then?
Gandalf: Yes, Frodo has completed his task.
Aragorn: Oh, good. I've been waiting to pee since Rivendell! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Seriously, I think bodily functions weren't included because they didn't advance the plot or themes at all. We just assume the characters did what was necessary without mentioning it because it's boring to read about stuff like that.

As for living in ME goes, consider whether you want to live in a world without chocolate, antibiotics, tetanus shots or feminine hygiene products. *shudder*

Sorry if that was too graphic for you folks.

-Lily

[Lush]

You're right, doug, I forgot.

Though then again: bathing, smoking, and singing can still be romanticized.

Relieving oneself is a different matter, especially in Tolkien's time.

[Theron Bugtussle]

Lush, Wayne's World! Wayne's World! Party Time! Excellent! There are some true works of art that deal with those areas. Funny, too.

What's wrong with Tolkien just assuming we all know "stuff" happens? At the time of the books being written, authors did not have to include Monty Python scenes or Eddie Murphy crudities to appeal to their audiences. I doubt he is trying to brainwash the weak-minded that people (and elves) did not have to toilet themselves in M-E.

[the phantom]

I don't think the thought of characters relieving themselves ever occurred to me once while reading any book or watching any movie. As Lush said-

because it's an imaginary world after all

If you try to think about certain details it begins to shatter the magic of ME in a way, it makes it more realistic. But I already live in the real world so I'm not particularly interested in trying to make my fantasy world more real. I live everyday life and I'd rather read about something that isn't everyday life if you get my meaning.

(maybe some of you like to make ME more real, or wouldn't mind if it was more real, but in most cases I prefer the "romantic ideas in ME")

[The Saucepan Man]

I'm not particularly squeamish about such matters, but it seems to me that Lily Bracegirdle hit the nail on the head when she said:

Seriously, I think bodily functions weren't included because they didn't advance the plot or themes at all.

Do we really need to know about it when the protagonists feel the need to answer nature's call? Had it been necessary to the plot, then I am sure we would have been given sufficient detail, although I cannot really see Tolkien being inclined to include a plotline that required that such detail be given. So, I think that we can quite reasonably assume that the characters relieved themselves when necessary without having to be told all about it.

As for the mechanics of relieving oneself in full armour, well I am sure that the said armour would have been designed to take this into account. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Interesting that the first section of Knight's post has generated so much discussion, while the latter section has gone unremarked upon. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Another question one that occurs is the ideas of trade and society.

Here are a few old threads on money and trade in Middle-earth:

Money !

Did Hobbits have Money?

M.E. Currency

Money in ME

Coffee!

Do Elves butcher meat? They eat it, obviously, but it just doesn’t sound like an elf to kill an animal and cut it up.

I don't see why not. Undoubtedly they hunted (I believe that there is a reference to the Mirkwood Elves at least doing so), and they probably also reared livestock themselves or traded with nearby livestock-owning communities (Rivendell and the Grey Havens particularly).

While we may prefer to buy our meat nicely packaged and not think about how it got there, I can't imagine Elves having such qualms. Being in tune with nature doesn't mean not eating meat when it is a natural part of your diet. And since Eru created them as beings who required meat as part of their natural diet, it cannot have been against his will to kill and eat animals. They would have recognised the cyclical nature of the natural world, even if it did not apply to them. Many more ancient societies (such as Native Americans) recognised this balance and held the animals that they hunted and killed in great reverence. It is only when that balance is upset, by hunting animals to the point of extinction (such as our more "civilised" societies have done), that the propriety of the process might be called into question.

And what do they burn for fires? Don’t they love nature, and not wish to harm the trees?

Agian, the same principal applies. Elves undoubtedly burnt wood and used it in building and craftsmanship. I don't see iron chairs or beds being particularly common. Again, Eru created them as beings who would need to use wood to survive, so doing so cannot have been against his will. I cannot, however imagine them clearing large tracts of forest. They would simply have taken just what they needed, no doubt preferring to use wood from trees/branches that had already died/fallen where this was sufficient to meet their needs. There is, after all, a lot of dead wood lying around when you live in a forest.

Of course, Elves using wood does make Yavana's "creation" of the Ents (in the sense of willing their creation), in response to Aule's "creation" of the Dwarves, seem slightly odd. Why the need for beings to protect and guard trees specifically in response to the existence of Dwarves when Eru had already created beings (Men and Elves) that would be cutting down trees for their wood? Perhaps it was because the Dwarves needed more wood for the purposes of working metal and the like. But then again, the Noldor were pretty handy at crafting metal too, weren't they?

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Gimme a break.

While Tom continued telling stories, Frodo excused himself to go to the bathroom. - LOTR Book I, Chapter VI - Imagined Addition

Gandalf was fallen. Sam and Pippin were so shellshocked that they emptied their stomachs, right there on the cold, hard stone of Moria, as the drums continued to beat. - LOTR Book II, Chapter VI - Imagined Addition

Sam was so caught up in the Elvish spirit that he forgot to brush his teeth, and Merry commented on his bad breath - LOTR Book II, Chapter VII - Imagined Addition

Sam was shocked; but before he could mourn his fallen master, he first walked over to the side of the road, and unzipped his hobbit-pants, and . . . - LOTR Book IV, Chapter X - Imagined Addition

See how ludicrous it would be if Tolkien actually did include stuff like that? That's one reason why LOTR is the fantasy to end all other fantasies: it doesn't include stupid and not-worth-mentioning stuff like that.

[Eöl]

As for the mechanics of relieving oneself in full armour, well I am sure that the said armour would have been designed to take this into account. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

well, this is true indeed. I visited a museum with my school a month ago and they also had medieval sections. And indeed, they had armor that was crafted to some special needs or care. It had a rather large bulge at the crotch, in case of.. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
i tried looking for a picture but alas.

[ainur]

When the hobbits were in Bree, and met Strider for the first time, and Merry went for a "stroll" which resulted in an encounter with the Black Riders, I always assumed that he was looking for the out-house before turning in for the night. It never seemed logical to me that he was taking the air, or enjoying the moonlight when he was too weary from the journey to even join the others in the Common Room of the Prancing Pony for a beer. I guess I never questioned it, since it's handling was neither crude nor explicit. It's the closest thing to mentioning this I have found, though, even among the orcs. And as I said, it was not explicit.

[Jjudvven]

Well, I certainly never considered that option. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] although that is logical. I always assumed that he was going out for a pipe smoke, and a peaceful walk.

[Ainaserkewen]

Everyday activities are a given...if Tolkien had written them all(or any author for that matter) it would make for a very long and boring book.

[Finwe]

The only reason that you would put details of everyday life in a book is if those details somehow influenced the eventual outcome. If they did not, then there was no need to put them in, if the author didn't want to include them. Also, Tolkien was writing a grand epic. Somehow people want their heroes to be greater than life, and thus, not need to "relieve" themselves the way ordinary folk do. It's just a part of wanting our heroes to be superhuman. If we had found out that Aragorn had to regularly use the bathroom, he wouldn't seem such a majestic character any more. He'd just be normal, and heroes aren't normal.

[Lyta_Underhill]

I read somewhere that Tolkien had introduced the device of lembas to account for the need to feed the Fellowship along the long paths, and I also noticed that eating and most importantly, drinking, were addressed fairly closely with regard to Frodo and Sam in Mordor, mainly because it did advance the plot and add to the characteristics hardships of being at loose ends in Mordor. I imagine that neither Frodo nor Sam had to relieve themselves much, as, by that time, they would be so dehydrated that their bodies would hold in every drop of excess moisture they could. Merry and Pippin, on the other hand, were probably peeing like fire-engines in Fangorn after both Orc and Ent-draughts in great abundance! One thing I do wonder is: did Gimli lose it on the Paths of the Dead? He comes out of there deeply ashamed of his being brought low by his fear of the Dead! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Interestingly enough, it appears the more mundane 'human' functions are associated most closely with the Hobbits--i.e., smoking, bathing, etc. ; also, the Inklings seemed to dislike the Hobbits to a degree when Tolkien would pull out his stories to read at their meetings. I wonder if this had something to do with it at all, or if I'm just reaching? (This has been a stream of consciousness post from a weary hobbit just off the daily Walk to Rivendell...)

Cheers,
Lyta

[doug*platypus]

Interesting point, Lyta! It goes in, but it never comes out seemingly! Tolkien's frequent mentioning of food and drink (not just for the hobbits, either) is one of the most endearing qualities of the book, I think. All used very thoughtfully, as well. You are what you eat in Middle-Earth, and there's plenty of discussions in the forum on the topic. Orc food is horrible, nasty stuff for instance, because so are Orcs, not just physically but morally and spiritually as well.

But it seems a shame that the other end of business never gets a mention. I don't know about the rest of you, but I always feel especially cleansed after a good dump. It's a fact of life and nothing to be embarassed about. I'm sure the wall at Helm's Deep probably reeked of urine by the end of that battle, and I can't see any harm in mentioning that to add to the realism of the story. But then, Tolkien's writing just isn't in that style. I don't think it matters much either way.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

It is obviously not in his style, but what I am wondering is: How would including that advance the plot in any way, shape or form?
It is a pointless detail. There are other ways to describe the battlefield, such as saying it reeked because of blood and burning flesh, as i imagine was the case.

[Kalimac]

I'd tend to agree with Lily on this as well - they weren't included mostly because they didn't really advance the story. Even the other stuff - the smoking, bathing-while-singing, and so forth - tells us something about the person's character and the sort of stuff they like to do on a daily basis. They're voluntary actions. And it's true - Tolkien does put a lot of emphasis on eating! Of course, this isn't an at least potentially optional activity like smoking or bathing, but it can still tell us something about how the character, or how they're feeling. For example, in "The Hobbit" the fact that Beorn has stacks of food which is taken from animals in a painless way, but no meat, which would involve slaughter, tells us a good bit about Beorn. The fact that the hobbits devour a billion-course feast at Bilbo's party tells us both that they're the kind of people who enjoy feasting and partying, and also that they're living in a fairly lush region (sorry, Lush!) and that there's more than enough to go around. And so forth.

But a character having to pop out to relieve himself behind the bushes doesn't tell us anything except that his body is still obeying the laws of nature. It's kind of like mentioning it whenever somebody blinks involuntarily. The only occasions when it would become important would be if (a) somebody sneaked away to the outhouse and happened to overhear or see something while on the way there, or back or (b) if somebody was functioning so abnormally that it held up the journey or otherwise changed things.

That being said...heh, you know, I bet that *was* the reason that Merry "went out for a stroll." Actually I like that explanation a lot - especially since it always struck me as a little softheaded of Merry to pull a teenagers-in-the-haunted-house routine of "Well, there are these big scary things all around, so I think I'll just walk off by myself. What could possibly go wrong?" It would make a lot more sense if he was compelled somewhat (though you'd think a facility like the Prancing Pony would have some sort of indoor earth closet).

Fangorn would be different - I'd be afraid to touch anything there, let alone relieve myself, for fear of accidentally coming into contact with a Huorn or something. And something tells me that that the lack of water in Mordor meant that it wasn't really a concern for anyone trying to get to Mount Doom.