Eowyn's "disguise" - who was fooled by it?

[Lobelia]

Who thinks, as I do, that Eowyn's presence among the Riders was not much of a secret? Theoden didn't know, of course, or Eomer, because they were up front and not expecting her there, but reading those chapters, it seemed to me that, 1. she had made arrangements for a blind eye to be turned to Merry's presence and she couldn't have done that if someone in charge of her unit didn't know about her, 2. her horse Windfola was probably well-known among the men, since she'd probably been training on him and 3. how could another Rider suddenly turn up in a unit or eored or whatever, without someone asking questions and probably recognising her, even if she lied? Come on, she's the princess! And she would have been seen in armour before.
Just a thought.

[Findegil]

The event was a gahtering of all strenght of the Rohirrim. Many an eored was put together for just that ride, I would think. In addition many a men was killed in the westfold. So we can assume that in many eored's new soldiers were added to fillup the ranks agian. In such a situation a new face in an eored would be normal. And if she take the right eored with men that were not normaly stationed in or around Edoras it is possible that she would no have been recoginsed by the men.

In addition she had come to an aggrement with Elfhem the comander of the eored. The rohirrim were an very well organised millitary folk. Non of the normal soldiers would dare to say: "Commander Elfhelm, this guy you have brought as a new commrad looks pretty much like our princess, what are you doing here? And here funny baggage should also not be here." I don't think Elfhelm would smile at that.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ainur]

I think the only one actually fooled was Merry.

[Finwe]

Helmets do manage to hide a lot, and the Rohirrim were also desperate for strength. At best, Eowyn would probably look like a very young teenager, trying to go to war. The Rohirrim were at the stage where, any able-bodied man or strong lad would be allowed to ride, just because they needed as many spears as they could get. Besides, perhaps Elfhelm sympathized with Eowyn. After all, she did have as good a right as any to ride to the defense of Middle-earth. It was her land as much as it was Theoden's or Eomer's.

[lathspell]

As is said above most of the people in the Ride of the Rohirrim were assembled in great haste, so many people would not know each other. And most people who knew Eowyn by sight would know here with her long blond hair and pretty dresses.
Merry has seen Eowyn several times and even up close and still he does not recognise her when she is Dernhelm. Eowyn at first seems surprised by that, but I guess that is because he has seen her up close. And if even Merry doesn't recognise her, than why should other people?
I do not doubt that Eomer or Theoden would have recognised her, had they seen her, but I guess Dernhelm kept some distance between them and herself.

So, I don't see why anyone would have recognised her during the Ride.

greetings,
lathspell

there were also many riders and everyone was concentrating on the battle so I dont think anyone would even notice her even if it was obvious that it was eowyn. As for merry hehad never been in a battle before so he probably didnt even pay attention to Dernhelm. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Rumil]

It seems plain that Elfhelm knew what was going on. I wonder if he secretly fancied Eowyn such that she could twist him round her little finger? Perhaps this is the great unrequited love story of Middle Earth!

I mean, who else would she be expected to marry (considering that in medieval times the bride didn't have too much of a choice)? Obviously not Eomer or Theodred, Grimbold and Gamling were too old, and as for Grima -yeeeuccch! That leaves only one prominent Rohir, namely Elfhelm. Of course, nobody could have expected her to fall for an unknown northern ranger or the prince of Gondor!

[Lobelia]

Okay, so we're all agreed that Elfhelm, at least, knew perfectly well who "Dernhelm" was - well, he had to, didn't he? :-) He wouldn't pay much attention to a new young Rider who came up and asked for a favour! And it says in the book that all his men pretended Merry wasn't there. So presumably he had a word with them. Maybe it was only a case of "Look, the hobbit's with us and we all think he has the right, so just ignore him would you?" but I suspect they, too, knew who had asked the favour.

Merry didn't know, true - well, he'd seen her close up when she took him to get kitted up and, as you all say, in her own clothes with long hair and yes, those helmets would probably hide a multitude of sins (don't get them confused with the ones in the film, though). But Merry doesn't know her. And he has his own problems and no reason to think she'd come along. She did indeed seem surprised that he hadn't recognised her, though.

Must admit, I hadn't thought of Elfhelm having romantic thoughts of the lady! (g) Perhaps. I like to think of him having respect for her courage, though, and sympathy for her need to fight.

[Lhunardawen]

One thing that's bothering me is...how come Dernhelm and Elfhelm seemed to be arguing over something in The Ride of the Rohirrim? It's possible, yes, that Elfhelm knows who Dernhelm really is. But it's still quite confusing. Definitely Elfhelm can have a disagreement with any random Rider. I don't think we can conclude that Elfhelm does know that Dernhelm is Eowyn.

[Firefoot]

I would tend to agree with the people who said Elfhelm probably knew who Dernhelm was. In RotK, Book V, Chapter 6(The Ride of the Rohirrim - I think it's chapter 6) it says something like "there seemed to be an understanding between Dernhelm and Elfhelm." This is, of course, from Merry's perspective and he did not recognize Eowyn, but I would take this to mean that Elfhelm knew that Dernhelm was Eowyn. It also goes on to say that the other riders ignored Merry and treated him like a piece of baggage. So, I would say that the other riders turned a blind eye to Merry and Eowyn.

I admit, it also crossed my mind that Elfhelm liked Eowyn. if he didn't though, it would seem sort of odd that he would willingly allow Eowyn to ride with the Rohirrim. Maybe he didn't do it willingly? What could other reasons be?

[Kalimac]

I'd agree that Elfhelm knew who Dernhelm really was, if nothing else on the basis of the "understanding" they seemed to have. I'm not sure that it's really evidence that he had an unrequited love for her, though - in fact, if he were romantically in love with her, he'd probably be *less* willing to let her go into a situation where (as he would think) she had a 99% chance of being killed. If he felt more brotherly towards her, though, he might be swayed by her pleas that she's been training for this sort of thing her whole life, why can't she use it in her peoples' defense, like everyone else? Also, there is the matter that while their force was nice, it was not overwhelmingly enormous, and every extra rider would help.

It's true that she has sworn to Theoden to stay behind with the citizenry, and by allowing her to come along, Elfhelm is essentially abetting her in breaking her oath. But considering their situation - they're only expecting to survive a matter of days. (What were the odds that the Ring would really go into the fire, anyway? Elfhelm didn't know these particulars, but surely that black cloud from the East couldn't have been encouraging). His thinking may have been along the lines of "In the end, we're all dead. Might as well go out with a bang."

As for Dernhelm's dispute with Elfhelm, I'd guess it was over Merry. While Elfhelm might understand the reasons that Dernhelm could be good in a fight, he hasn't seen anything to indicate that Merry has any particular skill at all that would prevent him being slaughtered in the first five minutes. While he may be expecting that none of them will live very long, I doubt he'd want Merry to throw his life away without effect like that.

So Elfhelm probably knew, but the other riders probably didn't. For one thing, had they known, they would probably have tried to hover around Eowyn a little more than they did - protecting the woman, and all that, even if subconsciously. She would have been a lot more hampered in her movements at the beginning of the battle. And when they saw Merry riding with the new boy, they probably figured that Merry had pleaded his way in with Elfhelm somehow, so who were they to dispute? Besides, the boy would be lighter than any of them, and so better able to bear the extra weight on his horse.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Interesting topic! After hearing all of your opinions, you've convinced me that Elfhelm (at least) knew who Dernhelm was. I hadn't really thought about it before. I agree with Kalimac that he probably wasn't in love with her, though. As she said, most men in love wouldn't let the objects of their affection ride into battle when there was an excuse to stop them. Maybe Eowyn blackmailed him. ^_^;

Hey, the Witch king was fooled! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Not that he knew who Eowyn was, but he didn't realize she was a woman, at least.

As for potential husbands for Eowyn among the Rohirrim, how about Erkenbrand? I don't think he was married, and he'd have sufficient rank to marry Theoden's sister-daughter.

-Lily

[Olorin_TLA]

I was fooled. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Lhunardawen]

I was fooled.

So was I! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

So maybe that's why Dernhelm was able to ride nearer Theoden when they were approaching Minas Tirith, even if it means leaving "his" own éored, and no one stopped "him" from doing so.

I just can't think how they were able to hide it from Éomer and the King...

[Olorin_TLA]

I don't think they notice her...heh, in the BBC Radio version Théoden says "Ride with me, Dernhelm!" - now there's an example of an unnattentive foster-parent. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Everdawn]

I was, for a fair few pages... and then the penny sunk, and i knew. (a wonderful moment for me, being that i am mostly oblivious to everything [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] )

Speaking of Elfhelm, ive been reading more and more about him and he is one of my fave. smallest characters. Does anyone know how old he is? Or what he looks like?

I think that Elfhelm had an understanding with Éowyn, becuase the Rohirrim have a love of their king, thats how I see it. As others have said, i think everyone kept it from Éomer and Théoden.

[Olorin_TLA]

Well I first encountered LotR fom the BBC radio adaptation, so I don't know if I would have guessed. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lalaith]

Obviously Elfhelm knew. Eowyn was a highly skilled soldier (in the book at least, ahem) and must have got her training from somewhere. Maybe he was her mentor in arms and their understanding went back quite a way.

considering that in medieval times the bride didn't have too much of a choice

It's no good drawing direct parallels with real history and the Lord of the Rings as it does not take place in any historical mediaeval time.
Show me an instance where Tolkien has a woman of a free people forced to wed against her will. The only ones I can think of are Aerin, taken by the conquering Easterling Brodda, and Miriel of Numenor, who was taken by the tyrant ArPharazon. Both incidents take place under very dysfunctional circumstances.

[symestreem]

I think it was the helmet that prevented Eowyn from being recognized. Tolkien calls it "the helm of her secrecy", and both Eomer and Imrahil recognized her with it off- so it's safe to say that anyone who saw her without her helmet would recognize her as a woman, and maybe Eowyn if they knew here. But knowing this, would she have taken her helmet off? Also, Dernhelm "never spoke to anyone".
I don't think anyone recognized Eowyn, because if they did they would have said something. They didn't know she could fight, and even if they did, it would technically be treason to not tell the king, since he had commanded she stay at Edoras.

[Lalaith]

Incidently, how long did the Ride take? I think I'm right in saying they slept on the way...did she sleep in her helmet?

[Lily Bracegirdle]

The Rohirrim left Dunharrow on March 10th and arrived at Minas Tirith on the 15th.

Maybe she slept with her cloak over her head. Not to be indelicate, but how did she pee? Privately, I suppose.

-Lily

[Finwe]

I suppose the warriors who weren't from Edoras wouldn't be able to recognize her as the Princess without her helmet, so perhaps while making camp, she tried to stay around the "out-of-town" recruits, so that she wouldn't be recognized as the Princess (even with her helmet on).

[Er-Murazor]

Elfhelm knew she was there, sure as hell. About other people in the secret... the less that know the better (particularly because Eomer would have entered in a killing rage against whoever let her travel to the battlefield).
Probably the cloud of smoke that covered most of Gondor and the eastfold helped a little to hide her true identity.

[Finwe]

I'm sure that Eomer had more important things to worry about than whether his sister had secretly escaped from Meduseld, and was currently following them, dressed in armor, and carrying an equally furtive Halfling. He was busy helping Theoden lead the army. He knew that Eowyn wanted to fight, but he probably didn't give her enough credit for having the guts to pull off something like that. Ultimately, he thought that she would just sit at home, and do what she was told. He didn't realize the true depth of her desire to be a real shieldmaiden.

[Leyrana Silumiel]

While the comment I have is slightly off-topic, it DOES relate to Eowyn and her sneaking into the army.

After all, she did have as good a right as any to ride to the defense of Middle-earth. It was her land as much as it was Theoden's or Eomer's.

I have a slight objection to this statement in particular. I like Eowyn's character, but she strikes me as particularly selfish, especially in her quest for glory and honor. Theoden and Eomer are both riding to battle. If they were both killed in the battle, she would have become Queen of Rohan, correct? But if all three were killed in battle, who would rule Rohan? Her selfishness, in her mind, and her quest for glory and honor seem to supercede any sort of thought for the welfare and rule of her people. (My mother is the one who pointed this out, and I tend to agree.)

Any opinions?

[The Barrow-Wight]

By the time she secretly joined the army, I don't think Eowyn was seeking glory. After all, it was unlikely anyone would survive to remember her deeds in battle. Instead, Eowyn was seeking her death, as her fight with the Witch King cleary shows.

As for her disguise and who it might have fooled, she was protected from the main mass of the army by Elfhelm, who, no doubt grudgingly, allowed her to come along. She rode along quietly, so as not to rouse attention. And if not for the circle of conspirators around her, her presence would have been known by the King almost immediately.

[Saraphim]

I like Eowyn's character, but she strikes me as particularly selfish, especially in her quest for glory and honor. Theoden and Eomer are both riding to battle. If they were both killed in the battle, she would have become Queen of Rohan, correct? But if all three were killed in battle, who would rule Rohan?

Woohoo! Finally, someone agrees with me! I'm sick to death of people getting mad at me because I say Eowyn made a stupid mistake.

But here I am thinking again. If Eowyn hadn't been at the Pellenor Fields, then Merry wouldn't have been there, and then there wouldnt have been anyone who could have potentially destroyed the Witch-King. And then, most likely, the Nazgul would have killed not only Theoden, but Eomer as well.

Anyway. My personal opinion of this topic (apologies for getting away from it), is that Eowyn just stuck around with Riders who weren't from Edoras or would have immediatly recognized her.