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Old 09-22-2021, 09:48 PM   #521
Galadriel55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
It's almost as though Tolkien actually thought his characters' motivations through...!

(No, actually that is surprising, for the Silm; the number of times he rejigged random bits of the story gives very much the opposite impression.)
Lol. I suppose you can fit whatever motivations you want under the bare bones of facts. But seriously!...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Well, you're singing it! That's the one I landed on, too, with a slight preference towards "claim".
And "claim" it is! That was a brilliant way to turn that phrase, I love it. It hits all the right points, and it flows really well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
The beauty of Middle-earth is that Tolkien created such a broad and deep setting that you can always wriggle anything into being canonical. I could've gone field, hills, river or swamp and still found somewhere to fit it. (Possibly even better than Brethil would have been Tasarinan with the willows, but eh, I like birch.)
Birches are lovely! And I think Tasarinan is a bit far to the south, no? (Or else I'm just looking for excuses to justify the birches )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
(Utterly unrelated: good grief, I've just discovered the 3-volume edition of HoME, which sounds frankly terrifying!)
That's a whopper! O.o


Now, to the meat of the stuff... today I discovered that my voice is fully back! And therefore:

Test run of Dream, which demonstrates that I need to do something about the end consonants (wind wing???) and the breath for the final "mine". But I'm up to Beren's part for the music, give or take a bit of editing.

And:

Appeal - Entrance, where Beren is slightly off-key, but that' okay because the Elf Choir seems good. (Choir alone here). I swear, doing the choirs is such tremendous fun! (...swear to this oath... ). I think that's pretty much the end of them though, except for Epilogue where "everybody" sings. Well, we'll still get to play around with Beren/Luthien harmony on the "Let the wind rage" stanzas, twice. I was hoping to sing through the whole of Nargothrond too, but it is quite late, and the part of me that knows better put its foot down at this point because I already have done none of the reading I was supposed to do today and I will sooo regret this tomorrow as it is. But at least Choir is there, and I will get to Appeal eventually and sing it to my heart's content. ^.^
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Old 09-25-2021, 06:40 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Birches are lovely! And I think Tasarinan is a bit far to the south, no? (Or else I'm just looking for excuses to justify the birches )
Technically the problem with my thought process is that Nargothrond is too far to the north, but yes, Brethil makes more sense. ^_^ Though technically the Silm tells us that followed Narog up to the Wells of Ivrin, so it should really be the Núath, but has anyone even heard of Núath? No. They're not even on the Silm map, just the CoH one. So Brethil it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Now, to the meat of the stuff... today I discovered that my voice is fully back! And therefore:

Test run of Dream, which demonstrates that I need to do something about the end consonants (wind wing???) and the breath for the final "mine". But I'm up to Beren's part for the music, give or take a bit of editing.
Huzzah! I see what you mean about the consonants, but overall it sounds great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Appeal - Entrance, where Beren is slightly off-key, but that' okay because the Elf Choir seems good. (Choir alone here). I swear, doing the choirs is such tremendous fun! (...swear to this oath... ). I think that's pretty much the end of them though, except for Epilogue where "everybody" sings. Well, we'll still get to play around with Beren/Luthien harmony on the "Let the wind rage" stanzas, twice. I was hoping to sing through the whole of Nargothrond too, but it is quite late, and the part of me that knows better put its foot down at this point because I already have done none of the reading I was supposed to do today and I will sooo regret this tomorrow as it is. But at least Choir is there, and I will get to Appeal eventually and sing it to my heart's content. ^.^
I'll splice the choir into the video when I get a chance. I'm always impressed by your choir work - I can never get it to work well when trying it myself. It's good!

hS
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Old 09-26-2021, 08:59 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I'll splice the choir into the video when I get a chance. I'm always impressed by your choir work - I can never get it to work well when trying it myself. It's good!
Thank you! I confess, I cheat - I rarely can sing harmony clearly right off the top of my head. So instead I write it same way I would write the score, with an instrument playing more than one set of notes, and I fiddle with it until I'm happy with the sound. Then I delete the main voice line, and I'm left with the lower voice(s). Then I can hear them in isolation and sing along to them to make it a cleaner recording. Here's the one for Appeal, if you wanna give it a try.



Yesterday I was listening to Pella Hisie again, and it just occurred to me that it's Maglor singing, is it not? I think the first time I listened to it the details of the song didn't really register. But what I really want to know is who is the woman that he addresses. Especially since the Quenya and Russian sections seem to have very different meanings when it comes to the crucial lines about her. (FYI, apparently the second section in Russian is a translation by Lora Bocharova! Oh the small world of Russian Tolkien). I have enough Elvish to tell that the Russian is occasionally unfaithful, but then I found a more literal translation that confirmed it.


Quenya Lyrics:
Pella hisie, penna ma'r
o'renyan iltuvima la'r.
Erya tenn' ambarone sundar
Na'lye - fi'rie, nwalma, na'r.

Tular Valar mi' silme fa'nar,
Meldanya curuntanen ta'nar.
Minya Vard' elerri'le anta;
Miruvo're Yavanna quanta.
Ulmo - losse earo, yallo
Aule ca'ra vanima canta.
Nesso - lintesse, Va'no - helmo
Tula Melkor ar anta melmo.

Erwa na, Feana'ro hin, ;
u'ner ma'ra voronda nin.
Hlara, melda carmeo aina,
laurefinda ve Laurelin:
u'-kenuvanyel, tenn' Ambar-metta.
Hlara enya me'tima quetta.

Pella hisie, pella men,
ti'ra ilu'veke'na he'n.
Indis.
Engwa indeo olos.
Na'va manina elya men.




Literal translation
Beyond the mist, without a home
My soul will not find peace.
To its cursed roots
You are death, torment, fire.

Come Valar in shining guises
And create my beloved with their enchantment.
First, Varda gifts starsheen,
Yavanna fills with the nectar of life (Miruvor),
Ulmo gives the foam of the sea, from which
Aule creates a beautiful form.
From Nessa - nimbleness, from Vana - skin.
Comes Melkor and gives her a lover.

Alone (lonely?) is the son of Feanaro;
No one remained loyal to me.
Listen, beloved, fruit of sacred art,
Golden-haired like Laurelin:
I will not see you again until the end of the world.
Hark to my last word.

From beyond the mist, from beyond the water
The all-seeing eye is watching. (All-seeing eye is the Lidless eye in Russian LOTR - is this Sauron?... Or something else?)
Woman.
Dream of a fevered mind.
May your road be blessed.




Russian verses
I have no home even across the sea,
Even in the distance of misty fields.
I have no peace, and no heart -
You have burned it to the roots.

Only the Valar could have created
You, beloved, daughter of the earth.
Varda gifted you white light,
Yavanna filled you with [archaic word for alcohol].
Ulmo gave you a foamy guise,
Aule shaped the wonderous form.
Nessa released the body from bonds,
Melkor made you love another.

Alone (lonely?) is the son of Feanaro,
None are loyal to him now.
Listen, maiden whose hair is gold,
Who was made to be my woe:
I am immortal, there is no worse fate,
I shall not see you until

Beyond the mist, beyond the water
My steps shall lead as well;
After you, whose journey was brief
As the smoke that flies on the wind.




First of all, I saw a number of times when Russian-Quenya poetry is written with a ton of apostrophes and contractions. ...Why? It looks ugly. I can see the reason behind "Vard' ", because the final vowel gets lost. But, for instance, why "ma'r"? What are all these marks supposed to represent? I feel like English Quenya (lol) doesn't have nearly the same amount.

But on to the content... Surely the speaker is Maglor, the lonely son of Feanor! But who is the lady that he is serenading? I cannot recall any canon about Maglor's love life. Interestingly, first major diversion in the lyrics comes on the Melkor line - the person who provided the literal translation pointed out that the Quenya only says that Melkor gives her a "beloved [man]", implying most likely himself - and not another man that she loved instead. So the tragedy is not a love triangle but their love itself, due to their eternal separation. But the last stanza is the meat of it. The Russian really makes it sound like he's talking about a mortal woman - one who is as brief as smoke on the wind. But the Quenya has no support for that, really. It's just a well-wish to someone whose identity remains really vague. I am not sure about the whole Eye reference though. Beyond the water is surely in Valinor, not TA Mordor - so... Manwe watching? Dunno.

As an aside... Surely there's a typo in the last stanza, for "water" - should it not be "nen", not "men"?
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Old 09-26-2021, 09:31 AM   #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Thank you! I confess, I cheat - I rarely can sing harmony clearly right off the top of my head. So instead I write it same way I would write the score, with an instrument playing more than one set of notes, and I fiddle with it until I'm happy with the sound. Then I delete the main voice line, and I'm left with the lower voice(s). Then I can hear them in isolation and sing along to them to make it a cleaner recording. Here's the one for Appeal, if you wanna give it a try.
The fact that I don't understand most of what you just said explains why I'm so impressed. Sure, you think that makes it easier...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
First of all, I saw a number of times when Russian-Quenya poetry is written with a ton of apostrophes and contractions. ...Why? It looks ugly. I can see the reason behind "Vard' ", because the final vowel gets lost. But, for instance, why "ma'r"? What are all these marks supposed to represent? I feel like English Quenya (lol) doesn't have nearly the same amount.
I think a lot of those are actually accents: "Feana'ro" is just "Fëanáro", badly formatted. Some of them are still apostrophes, like Vard' and tenn' (that one's Tolkien's fault).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
But on to the content... Surely the speaker is Maglor, the lonely son of Feanor! But who is the lady that he is serenading? I cannot recall any canon about Maglor's love life.
First off, technically I've written about this! Dafydd Illian is a fictionally-created copy of Maglor (it's complicated), and when she hears this song his wife has Questions.

As Dafydd says, the answer is buried in HoME XII: apparently it's a note Tolkien jotted in one of his copies of RotK, saying that "Maedros" was unwedded, as were the twins, one of whom burned with the ships, and Celegorm, because he planned to marry Luthien. He notes that Curufin was married, and his son (Celebrimbor) followed him when his wife did not; then ends with "Others who were wedded were Maelor, Caranthir". And that's literally all we know about Mrs Maglor.

(This, and an associated note, are the reason Christopher put Celebrimbor as Curufin's son in the published Silm, so they're weightier than they look canon-wise.)

I actually thought it was about Curufin's wife, who Silm-canonically exists, but I can't find the source of that belief. ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Interestingly, first major diversion in the lyrics comes on the Melkor line - the person who provided the literal translation pointed out that the Quenya only says that Melkor gives her a "beloved [man]", implying most likely himself - and not another man that she loved instead. So the tragedy is not a love triangle but their love itself, due to their eternal separation. But the last stanza is the meat of it. The Russian really makes it sound like he's talking about a mortal woman - one who is as brief as smoke on the wind. But the Quenya has no support for that, really. It's just a well-wish to someone whose identity remains really vague. I am not sure about the whole Eye reference though. Beyond the water is surely in Valinor, not TA Mordor - so... Manwe watching? Dunno.
I feel like the Quenya is pretty clearly Maglor talking about his wife. The only people he would describe as coming from Melkor are his own accursed house, surely! The Eye could be Manwe (I think it probably is), but could also be Maglor himself or his estranged wife - or even the Silmaril of Earendil! There's nothing in the Quenya to make it The Eye, just an eye that sees all.

That Russian version is very different, and doesn't tell the same story at all. How odd.

... errrrr, the Russian transcription I have in my link runs like this:

Из-за тумана, из-за воды
смотрит всевидящее око.
Женщина.
Сон больного разума.
Да будет благословенным твой путь.

Have I managed to get a Google Translated version of the Russian in there somehow? I can't imagine how, but it's possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
As an aside... Surely there's a typo in the last stanza, for "water" - should it not be "nen", not "men"?
I'm not sure the singer's enunciation is clear enough to distinguish nen from men; I've got it as Nen in my copy of the lyrics, and I don't think I would have corrected it.

I also stand by what Dafydd said: it describes her as blonde. Can you imagine Feanor's reaction to his son marrying a Vanya? The Kinslaying at Alqualonde would have nothing on this!

EDIT: I've just looked up Maglor (actually Maelor) in NoME, and he only has one reference, but it's a "what?!" moment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoME 3.VIII Manwe's Ban
The most notable were those Maiar who took the form of the mighty speaking eagles [...] Their intervention in the story of Maelor, in the duel of Fingolfin and Melkor, in the rescue of Beren and Luthien is well known.
Like, it's almost certainly a typo for Maedhros, but if so, why no mention of Fingon? The "source" of the text appears to be a late (Gondorian?) footnote to a Numenorean text, so again, it's probably meant to be Maedhros; but you have to wonder...

hS
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Old 09-26-2021, 10:16 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I think a lot of those are actually accents: "Feana'ro" is just "Fëanáro", badly formatted. Some of them are still apostrophes, like Vard' and tenn' (that one's Tolkien's fault).
...Ooooh! That makes way more sense. I wonder why it's so prevalent. But it makes sense at least!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
First off, technically I've written about this! Dafydd Illian is a fictionally-created copy of Maglor (it's complicated), and when she hears this song his wife has Questions.
Lol. I loved the "you've got the Canon right now". And I love the translation! Do you have a full English version?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
As Dafydd says, the answer is buried in HoME XII: apparently it's a note Tolkien jotted in one of his copies of RotK, saying that "Maedros" was unwedded, as were the twins, one of whom burned with the ships, and Celegorm, because he planned to marry Luthien. He notes that Curufin was married, and his son (Celebrimbor) followed him when his wife did not; then ends with "Others who were wedded were Maelor, Caranthir". And that's literally all we know about Mrs Maglor.

(This, and an associated note, are the reason Christopher put Celebrimbor as Curufin's son in the published Silm, so they're weightier than they look canon-wise.)

I actually thought it was about Curufin's wife, who Silm-canonically exists, but I can't find the source of that belief. ^_^
I am still processing this information. It's having trouble fitting in among my current world constructs.

I mean, sure, Curufin the Jerk couldn't have been the only son of Feanor to find a wife. But there is literally no indication in the Sil that the others had any romantic relationships at all in their lives, and I am so unused to the idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hui
I feel like the Quenya is pretty clearly Maglor talking about his wife. The only people he would describe as coming from Melkor are his own accursed house, surely!
That makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
... errrrr, the Russian transcription I have in my link runs like this:

Из-за тумана, из-за воды
смотрит всевидящее око.
Женщина.
Сон больного разума.
Да будет благословенным твой путь.

Have I managed to get a Google Translated version of the Russian in there somehow? I can't imagine how, but it's possible.
No, you've just managed to get the literal translation, as opposed to the verse one. This is what the Quenya means, but not what is sung in the second section. Here are the sung lyrics:

Нет мне дома и за морем,
И в далях туманных полей.
Нет покоя, как нет и сердца -
Ты сожгла его до корней.

Только валар создать могли
Тебя, любимая, дочь земли.
Варда свет подарила белый,
Напоила Яванна хмелем.
Ульмо дал тебе пенный образ,
Ауле вылепил дивный облик.
Несса с тела сняла оковы,
Мелькор заставил любить другого.

Одинок Феанаро сын,
Нет преданных ныне ему.
Слушай, дева, чьи кудри злато,
Ты, что создана мне на беду:
Я бессмертен, нет худшей доли -
Мне не видеть тебя, доколе

За туманы, за гладь воды
Не уйдут и мои следы;
За тобою, чей путь был краток,
Как летящий по ветру дым.


With regards to the authorship, I haven't been able to find the origin source, but people on Russian discussion forums seem to agree that Quenya lyrics are by Khatul, Russian lyrics are by Lora Bocharova, and most well-known sung version is by Aire and Saruman (a group that is known for making covers for other people's poetry).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I'm not sure the singer's enunciation is clear enough to distinguish nen from men; I've got it as Nen in my copy of the lyrics, and I don't think I would have corrected it.
Regarding her enunciation - the one comment on your video praises the music and the voice, but says that the pronunciation leaves much to be desired. And, after listening alongside the written lyrics, I have to agree. She muddles a lot of the pronunciation.

However, regarding nen/men, all the sites where I've found the lyrics have "men". I feel like it's probably been typed once incorrectly and then copied everywhere without spellcheck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I also stand by what Dafydd said: it describes her as blonde. Can you imagine Feanor's reaction to his son marrying a Vanya? The Kinslaying at Alqualonde would have nothing on this!


I actually wondered if she was perhaps Teleri, killed at the Kinslaying, when still trying to reconcile the fleeting smoke on the wind imagery with the Quenya where she is not mortal. But this is all rubbish. Yes, OMG, how did Maglor not get disowned?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
EDIT: I've just looked up Maglor (actually Maelor) in NoME, and he only has one reference, but it's a "what?!" moment:

Like, it's almost certainly a typo for Maedhros, but if so, why no mention of Fingon? The "source" of the text appears to be a late (Gondorian?) footnote to a Numenorean text, so again, it's probably meant to be Maedhros; but you have to wonder...
I agree. Surely it's referring to Maedhros and Fingon, because... What story did Maglor ever have that could possibly involve Eagles?


PS: Does Russian really sound like the Black Speech?
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Old 09-26-2021, 02:43 PM   #526
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Lol. I loved the "you've got the Canon right now". And I love the translation! Do you have a full English version?
Sadly no; it took me long enough to cobble together the few lines he translates. I am not Maglor, despite any evidence to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I am still processing this information. It's having trouble fitting in among my current world constructs.

I mean, sure, Curufin the Jerk couldn't have been the only son of Feanor to find a wife. But there is literally no indication in the Sil that the others had any romantic relationships at all in their lives, and I am so unused to the idea.
Ditto; I quietly ignore it mostly. But with NoME and all, I am kind of tempted towards putting together a "Late Tolkien Aman" fanfic - all the names, all the marriages and dates, the Dome of Varda and everything... it'd be gloriously weird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
No, you've just managed to get the literal translation, as opposed to the verse one. This is what the Quenya means, but not what is sung in the second section. Here are the sung lyrics:
Aiya Earendil... thank you for that, I'll update my story at some point. I don't think it'll have any impact plot-wise, so no problems there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
However, regarding nen/men, all the sites where I've found the lyrics have "men". I feel like it's probably been typed once incorrectly and then copied everywhere without spellcheck.
I want a Quenya spellcheck now. But yes, probably. I feel like a lot of song lyrics get that treatment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I actually wondered if she was perhaps Teleri, killed at the Kinslaying, when still trying to reconcile the fleeting smoke on the wind imagery with the Quenya where she is not mortal. But this is all rubbish. Yes, OMG, how did Maglor not get disowned?
SECRET WIFE. Maglor is clearly who Tolkien was on about in LaCE when he talks about just sneaking off into the woods and getting hitched. Golden-hand meets golden-hair under the light of Laurelin...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I agree. Surely it's referring to Maedhros and Fingon, because... What story did Maglor ever have that could possibly involve Eagles?
Perhaps it's "the story of Maglor" because it's about his catastrophic term as High King, and how Manwe's Eagles had to rescue his brother just to put an end to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
PS: Does Russian really sound like the Black Speech?
Pffft, ignore Dafydd, he's super racist. (He isn't - he's just super Feanorian-ist despite not getting on with his family. He doesn't /like/ them, but he still knows they're better than everyone else.)

hS
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Old 09-26-2021, 03:38 PM   #527
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Sadly no; it took me long enough to cobble together the few lines he translates. I am not Maglor, despite any evidence to the contrary.
You know, there's quite a lot of evidence to the contrary at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Ditto; I quietly ignore it mostly. But with NoME and all, I am kind of tempted towards putting together a "Late Tolkien Aman" fanfic - all the names, all the marriages and dates, the Dome of Varda and everything... it'd be gloriously weird.
I think "quietly ignore" is my preferred reaction too. Though I am not as rattled by the idea of a sweetheart. Can she just be his sweetheart? If you're feeling very soapy romantic, maybe she could be his secret love that he never had the chance to open his heart to, because he left with his dad before he could muster the courage (but was he afraid of her reaction or his dad's reaction? We will never know...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Perhaps it's "the story of Maglor" because it's about his catastrophic term as High King, and how Manwe's Eagles had to rescue his brother just to put an end to it.
Aww, poor Maglor. :,(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Pffft, ignore Dafydd, he's super racist. (He isn't - he's just super Feanorian-ist despite not getting on with his family. He doesn't /like/ them, but he still knows they're better than everyone else.)
Lol. But seriously, I have no idea what Russian sounds like from the perspective of English. I can say that English to Russian sounds like you're trying to talk with with an ice cube in your mouth, all the sounds are way too rounded and nothing comes out crisp. But even though my English is better than my Russian at this point in life, I still can't hear what other English speakers hear when it comes to Russian. It just sounds... normal. It's the standard for comparison.
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Old 09-26-2021, 04:04 PM   #528
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You know, there's quite a lot of evidence to the contrary at this point.


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I think "quietly ignore" is my preferred reaction too. Though I am not as rattled by the idea of a sweetheart. Can she just be his sweetheart? If you're feeling very soapy romantic, maybe she could be his secret love that he never had the chance to open his heart to, because he left with his dad before he could muster the courage (but was he afraid of her reaction or his dad's reaction? We will never know...).
Are we 100% sure "she" isn't his harp?

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Lol. But seriously, I have no idea what Russian sounds like from the perspective of English. I can say that English to Russian sounds like you're trying to talk with with an ice cube in your mouth, all the sounds are way too rounded and nothing comes out crisp. But even though my English is better than my Russian at this point in life, I still can't hear what other English speakers hear when it comes to Russian. It just sounds... normal. It's the standard for comparison.
Trouble is, I don't think I've heard a lot of spoken Russian, and my sung Russian experience is polluted by the first set (Pella Hisie) being paired with Quenya, not English, and the second set (the Zong) now living in my head in English. I think it feels sharper - kind of the opposite of what you just said. But not as sharp as German. (And, um, I've just realised that one of the Zong lines in my head is actually from the /Quenya/ version of the Lament, so like... who even knows at this point. o.O)

hS
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Old 09-26-2021, 05:06 PM   #529
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Are we 100% sure "she" isn't his harp?
Golden-stringed as the Laurelin!

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Originally Posted by Hui
(And, um, I've just realised that one of the Zong lines in my head is actually from the /Quenya/ version of the Lament, so like... who even knows at this point. o.O)
That reminds me of a line combination that went through my head a lot before I memorized the Quenya Lament:

Queta, Enyalie, queta
[spanish-sounding something]-es
[more of spanish] es es es es
Uribo pith nin oril (from Wilwarin, but I'm pretty sure these aren't even from the same line)
Shelest tvoih kryl (Russian "rustle of your wings")
Screw the Silmaril! (My rational brain catching up to what just came out)
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Old 10-29-2021, 08:13 AM   #530
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Oof, it's been a while, hasn't it?

It looks like I promised to put the Elvish choir into Appeal, which I have done.

I've also put together a rough animation of Luthien's part of Dream. I may well shuffle the Brethil transition to after Beren starts singing; we'll see how it looks/sounds.

So basically, hooray! Stuff!

(I think at this point the only drawings left to do are the background for the Showdown, and a whole bunch of stuff for the Epilogue. Oh, and Truth. I have an idea for that that I probably need to try out before I commit to it.)

hS
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Old 11-06-2021, 09:32 PM   #531
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Birds (chirp! chirp!) without love can't sing their tune...

...And neither can I, it seems. It has been a ridiculously long time. When was the last time I posted anything here? A month, a week, and 4 days. A bit more if you count to when I last posted anything productive. RL swung a punch a little below the belt, and it's been a rough go. Thankfully, I can't say that I entirely lost the thirst for life, or at least for the musical, and when I finally sat down to Beren's stanzas they came pouring out with abandon, birds chirping and all. Today I was able to get at it a second time and finished off Beren's second stanza, to make it a neater cut off before I posted it.

Thus sang the twilight nightingale

I love the way Beren sort of "bursts" into Luthien's song in the video, and the way the arches appear. The arches especially are very elegant. And now there's enough of Beren's part to be able to experiment with the timing of the transition.

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It looks like I promised to put the Elvish choir into Appeal, which I have done.
Geez, I've already forgotten how that song sounds! I love the way Beren's request stanzas ("I would fain" and "I ask") and Finrod's response turned out, in every way possible. Absolutely the highlight of the song. Also Beren's Silmaril stanza. I am reminded again though of how much I disliked the way the music came out for the last stanzas, but I think it's not as glaringly jarring with the vocals. If I can request a favour though, would you mind moving the choir a smidge forward? Right now it's a little bit ahead of the beat, and I have a feeling it will be pinging my OCD for all of eternity.

I can't promise very fast work going forwards, I still have a lot of stuff to sort out IRL, but hopefully it won't be a dead nothing like it was for the last few weeks.
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Old 11-26-2021, 12:33 PM   #532
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Excitement! Excitement! I finished Dream!

A single battle fought

I am quite pleased with Beren. ^.^ And I am so excited to see how it will come out with the illustrations! The dream arches were already gorgeous and I can't wait to see the whole thing.

Now, because I am impatient and like to meddle in the affairs of wizards, I did a test sing-through (horrible and will all need to be re-sung on a better day) with a trial of Beren/Luthien harmony at the end... And because I wanted to see what it would sound like with Beren singing in his proper octave, I edited the pitch accordingly... which made Beren sound like a troll , but I think it works. Or will work, when Luthien doesn't sound like an Orc. Do you think we can pull it off? Beren follows the main melody, here's his original track for reference. However, I keep getting thrown off by the three-fast-notes in the beginning of each line (especially "stronger"), so maybe you sing it first and I'll follow whatever your lead? If you also find it too quick or uncomfortable, I can also fiddle with the music, I have a couple thoughts in mind about how to make it a bit easier if needed.

But

but



Squeeeee!

(Hey, what princess wouldn't follow Beren when he says this nice stuff? ^.^)





EDIT:
I think Luthien's Orcishness at the end can be fixed by doing this, which only works when Beren's voice is in his proper octave, which is perhaps why the simple solution didn't occur to me earlier. It still needs to be re-sung though. But what do you think? Can we do a bit of choiring? ^.^



EDIT2:
In not so good news, Lora Bocharova's site has been down for a few weeks now. Not just the Zong, the whole thing. This makes me sad, especially if she took it down permanently - but I cannot express how grateful I am for your foresight in copying the page with the chords and lyrics! Looking through it, all the remaining songs are there, Wind seems to be the only one linked out. I might have winged Camp and pieced together Epilogue, but there was NO WAY I could do Heart or Prison Duet without existing chords. O.0
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Old 11-30-2021, 09:59 AM   #533
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Excitement! Excitement! I finished Dream!
Ex!Cite!Ment!

So I was just going to PM you (and will do so on a different note), but then I listened and... it's incredible. I love this song. XD And I had to say so here.

It gave me proper chills listening to the Lay quotes - I know we agonised over whether to go off-script enough to include them, but I think they were a perfect decision. Absolutely perfect. (I may try a few alternates for "I no purpose have", though; that's clunky.)

I think I should be okay with singing it as-is, and I'm happy to follow your lead if you get a recording you're happy with before I get round to it.

I think the "harmony 2" version of the ending works perfectly well, so happy to go with that. I can't actually remember how the video looked, so once I get to that point it'll be an exciting adventure for me too! (I will try and tweak the choir in Appeal for you too; noting this for myself so it doesn't get lost.)

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EDIT2:
In not so good news, Lora Bocharova's site has been down for a few weeks now. Not just the Zong, the whole thing. This makes me sad, especially if she took it down permanently - but I cannot express how grateful I am for your foresight in copying the page with the chords and lyrics! Looking through it, all the remaining songs are there, Wind seems to be the only one linked out. I might have winged Camp and pieced together Epilogue, but there was NO WAY I could do Heart or Prison Duet without existing chords. O.0
Oh, what? That's rotten. :-/ Looks like it's properly down, too, not just glitchy.

There's about an hour between that sentence and this one, in which I've gone, grabbed Wind, and cleaned up the whole Libretto With Chords grab. This version has a table of contents! It kind of breaks if you hit the English translation button, but that's fine. (The HTML is like some kind of Lovecraftian nightmare realm; I don't even know what it's doing, but it seems to work.) I've popped the link into the English Libretto too so we can keep track of it.

hS
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Old 11-30-2021, 09:14 PM   #534
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So I was just going to PM you (and will do so on a different note), but then I listened and... it's incredible. I love this song. XD And I had to say so here.
I really did not appreciate this song enough until I got to scoring Beren's part. It is definitely another one that I love more for the making. I am glad you like it too, I was preposterously pleased with it.

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Originally Posted by Hui
It gave me proper chills listening to the Lay quotes - I know we agonised over whether to go off-script enough to include them, but I think they were a perfect decision. Absolutely perfect. (I may try a few alternates for "I no purpose have", though; that's clunky.)
Agreed. The agony is long gone. Beren is just right, and the direct canon reference is a bonus.

...Out of interest, I looked up the Russian Sil translation to see what that song is like there. The last line ("so that for one brief moment") is as direct as quotes can be, it just replaced "Luthien" with "you". I mean, the whole thing is one giant reference, but it's sort of nice to know they were trying to quote too. ...Actually, hmm, interesting. So, like there are many translations of LOTR, there are several of The Sil. I've been selectively looking at Farewell Sweet Earth and He Chanted A Song Of Wizardry. Some translations are really good, and some are really bad. But one of them is almost definitely quoted in the Russian Zong. I wonder how many direct quotes I've missed because I didn't fancy the Russian Sil translation nearly as much as LOTR, and don't remember what anything sounded like there.

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Oh, what? That's rotten. :-/ Looks like it's properly down, too, not just glitchy.
To quote something very much on theme -
Though all to ruin fell the world
And were dissolved, and backwards hurled
Unmade into the old abyss -
Yet were its making good, for this.
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Originally Posted by Hui
There's about an hour between that sentence and this one, in which I've gone, grabbed Wind, and cleaned up the whole Libretto With Chords grab. This version has a table of contents! It kind of breaks if you hit the English translation button, but that's fine. (The HTML is like some kind of Lovecraftian nightmare realm; I don't even know what it's doing, but it seems to work.) I've popped the link into the English Libretto too so we can keep track of it.
You are amazing, you know.
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Old 12-06-2021, 06:28 PM   #535
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Camp sketch

Old tune, new key

As usual, a check for singability - this one is set lower than Ballad, and I can't remember what key Oath was in but it wasn't the same as this one either.

I realized that the biggest problem with this piece is going to be the tempo. It's supposed to start slow, and gradually get faster and more intense. But my program can't do gradual continuous speed changes. Even if I find a speed that is acceptable for both the first and the last parts, it would sound (like it does here) that the song is getting slower instead of faster.

One solution I found is an accelerating tool on Audacity. As the test run shows, it does a pretty good job of gradual acceleration. But here it continues to accelerate all the way until the end. I think ideally it would only accelerate during the Oath section, while Ballad melody would be fast but levelly so. I think that's entirely feasible with Audacity, it would just meal some very careful editing.
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Old 12-13-2021, 04:19 AM   #536
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Old tune, new key

As usual, a check for singability - this one is set lower than Ballad, and I can't remember what key Oath was in but it wasn't the same as this one either.
Singability confirmed, and I'm just about back to the point where I can sing it (at least for some random sections of the day, ho hum). I don't know the tune or lyrics yet, but that's every song until we get onto it!

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One solution I found is an accelerating tool on Audacity. As the test run shows, it does a pretty good job of gradual acceleration. But here it continues to accelerate all the way until the end. I think ideally it would only accelerate during the Oath section, while Ballad melody would be fast but levelly so. I think that's entirely feasible with Audacity, it would just meal some very careful editing.
Well, whatever you did seems to work well as-is. But yes, Audacity can do the sort of thing you're talking about - you'd either need to pull pieces of the song off as separate tracks, or just select the piece you want to accelerate. (The latter works for raising the volume of specific lines, which I've had to do a few times.)

One lyric thought: "But only thanks to your account tonight" sounds a bit like Finrod's running a business meeting. How does "But only thanks to what you've shared tonight" work? Or "But now with what you've shared with me tonight"? (I've just tried putting both 'at last' and 'I see' into this line... um, no, those are both in the next one!)

EDIT: I've managed to scrape together a rough cut of the Dream audio, using your original Luthien and obviously without her part at the end. Other than the obvious lack of enough breath (I think I had to break 'a-lone' with a breath in there somewhere!), any comments or mis-sung lines?

I'm still not sure what to do about the 'no purpose/purposeless' line. Both versions seem one syllable short - you can hear me sing "pur-pose-le-ess". I almost want to switch the word out and do something like "I... am lost and lonely without you" (though is it too cheeky to quote Jareth the Goblin King where Seraphim's hair can hear?). Or am I parsing the line all wrong?

hS
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Old 12-13-2021, 07:45 AM   #537
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Singability confirmed, and I'm just about back to the point where I can sing it (at least for some random sections of the day, ho hum). I don't know the tune or lyrics yet, but that's every song until we get onto it!
Hurray!

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Originally Posted by Hui
One lyric thought: "But only thanks to your account tonight" sounds a bit like Finrod's running a business meeting. How does "But only thanks to what you've shared tonight" work? Or "But now with what you've shared with me tonight"? (I've just tried putting both 'at last' and 'I see' into this line... um, no, those are both in the next one!)
Certainly not the best line of the song, but I haven't given it much thought. I think what bothers me about "shared" is it emphasizes what I don't like about "account" - that it's about what Beren says. But it's more about what Beren is. If it could be shortened, it would be simply "But only now, thanks to you, I see at last etc". The difference? I think it's more than just what Beren says, especially in the musical; while the story, yes, is relayed by words, it's not really about anything Beren says in particular but about what he does and intends to do and just the way he treats an impossible love story.

This is not thought out at all, but "But only thanks to meeting you tonight". Uggh. No. I'll have to think about it for more than 5 minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
EDIT: I've managed to scrape together a rough cut of the Dream audio, using your original Luthien and obviously without her part at the end. Other than the obvious lack of enough breath (I think I had to break 'a-lone' with a breath in there somewhere!), any comments or mis-sung lines?

I'm still not sure what to do about the 'no purpose/purposeless' line. Both versions seem one syllable short - you can hear me sing "pur-pose-le-ess". I almost want to switch the word out and do something like "I... am lost and lonely without you" (though is it too cheeky to quote Jareth the Goblin King where Seraphim's hair can hear?). Or am I parsing the line all wrong?
Aha! I know why it comes out "purposle-es". You sing "without" as 2 syllables, but I sing it as 3, which would make both versions work better.

For the singing, I think you will make a great Beren! ^.^ I think the breath for the final lines of these stanzas is quite challenging, I struggled with it too.

Melody-wise, my only note would be that you are trying to sing the top melody (=Luthien) in the final stanza, which would work out in the end except for the last "battle". Beren's melody doesn't do any high jumps there, he follows the melody with small steps up... I think I've recorded it somewhere, but if not, I can do one again later today. But now, gotta run for work, I am late!
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Old 12-18-2021, 02:32 PM   #538
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A quick thought for consideration before it slips away:

But only after hearing your reprise

- or -

But only thanks to hearing your reprise

- or even taking one of your sentences but -

But only thanks to what you've said tonight


...Doesn't fix the "saying vs being" thing, but for some reason the word "share" rubs me the wrong way here more so than the others. I don't think I'm very fixated on this line, but I just don't like "share".


Also, do you think it's worthwhile trying to bring "revenge" back instead of "rage"? It would mean pushing "duty" out to one of the earlier lines, which in turn would mean having different content in the lines rather a triple repeat, but so long as there is some rhyme, I think it's ok. It's theoretically not impossible but the actual possibilities I think of are all weird.
But this is my choice,
This I decide:
Duty presides (abides?)
Never revenge.
Or the even clumsier:
But this is my choice,
This is my choice:
Duty I choose,
Never revenge.
I'm not sure if it's worth it to save the word but break the stanza. Thoughts?
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Old 12-25-2021, 05:38 PM   #539
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Triple posting, because I figured I am about half-way through Camp, that piece having two proper stanzas in the beginning and two at the end, with a Feanorian bit in between, and I am mid-way through the Feanorian theme. Also, wanted to see how the tempo stretch effect is working out, because it's a little weird to hear the piece either at one speed or the other but not doing the acceleration. I think I imagined it getting faster sooner, but not going much faster overall for this section - maybe for the final piece I'll accelerate it in chunks rather than continuously. I would need to play around with it on Audacity once the whole thing is done.

(As an aside, while doing obligatory research for this piece, I realized that the V1 crew does a slightly more musical take on the 3rd line of the Appeal stanzas, which I haven't used yet, so... viola. Following V1 rather than V2 crew this time so it's not a plain repeat of Nargothrond.)


And Merry Christmas!
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Old 01-02-2022, 05:22 PM   #540
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Amid the snows another song is born

I finished Camp! And I love it! And because I love it, I sang it.

I think this probably was the most smoothly made song since the early ones which were done on a timeline of weeks rather than months. The tempo adjustment was much less of an issue with the final thing than on the half-finished take, I was making too much of a fuss. There are a few details which sound different as a result of recording at low speed and then speeding up, the product of the program glitching and inserting unnecessary pauses between notes which then get exaggerated with this method... But the alternative is to record in chunks and then piece everything together with very minute detail and do the timing just right to have everything match up... I figured the glitches are not so noticeable that it would be worth the effort.

I love this song because it just repeats other songs but with its own twists. I think redoing Oath was my favourite. You still get the footfalls of doom, but it is very much Untrembling and Not Rage, in contrast to Cel&Cur's version.

I found that it takes some adjusting to singing a piece that is continuously speeding up even as you are in the middle of a line. The internal metronome does not like it. How are you finding the speed and singability? Given how easy it was to do the speeding up, it would not take much effort to adjust if needed.

I was initially not gonna score Beren at all, but it made the score sound better, so he is there too. But he and Finrod are each sorta half-scored in that section. So if it makes it easier to record, I can send you the bare-boned sketch of each at the same pace to use instead. See what works, I guess? And I was singing the text as written, without the recent adjustments - so that would be different too of course.

Now, other stuff -



Updates on Appeal:

Firstly, I went back to the score and took out the elements that were annoying me the most. The last stanza just rubbed me the wrong way too much. I figured out what it is - whether Beren is being calmly cynical or despairing and dismayed, that stanza just doesn't work for him because it is not genuine. It needs to be plainer, simpler. And I think making it simpler helps make me not detest that part of the music. And while at it, I fiddled again with the harp sound. So here is the new Appeal score. (Or here together with Entrance, but the gap between the pieces is of arbitrary length and might not match up with the animations and audio timing you have already. So whichever one is easier to adjust to the rest of the video...)

Then, I finally got around to singing it to my heart's content. ^.^


Updates on Dream:

I have not yet had a satisfactory Luthien take. But here is a (long)-promised Beren ending - I have already forgotten why exactly I wanted to do it, I think it was literally just the last two notes.
This again demonstrates that it might be wiser for me to wait for you to sing that part first - I don't have a single consistent rhythm on the starts of the phrases.



Happy New Year!
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Old 01-06-2022, 12:45 PM   #541
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Happy New Year! You've been really, really, really busy! Scribbling together a To Do list for myself, because otherwise I'm going to lose something:

- Move the choir a little in Appeal (or rather Entrance).

- Re-sing Appeal with the new score.

- Fix up the animation for Appeal to account for the above.

- Sing Dream, particularly the ending with the correct tune. Thank you for the demo run!

- Listen to Camp - oh, I can do that right now!

Oh wow, that's really good. ^_^ The speed-up sounds completely natural, and I'm sure I'll be able to get to grips with it. I think I can handle the ending too; we shall see.

- Sort out those lyrics. Hmmm.

For the 'duty' stanza, what is Finrod saying? He was brought to Middle-earth by the Oath, but he also chose his own course. He was following his duty, not out for revenge.

Ooh. You know what?

For the Oath's sake I forsook my own home, braved the Great Sea and bitter cold
But duty I chose
Duty I chose
Duty I choose
Never revenge.


Keeps the repeat, emphasises duty, and makes that shift from the Exile being his duty, to his duty to Beren as his vassal. And chose/choose is close enough to a rhyme that it doesn't sound bad.

Now for 'account'. We want to say that knowing Beren - probably just for this one day, given the time compression inherent in a play - has made Finrod realise that love isn't this thing that you try and fit in a box. He's talking both about Beren's strength - and his own weakness, in abandoning Amarie for duty, rather than staying with her for love.

But in the song your heart has sung tonight?

or

But by the light your heart shines forth tonight?

I think 'heart' is a good word to work in here, because... it's the title of the next song. ^_^ The whole sequence is visual metaphors, and down in 'Truth' we have the secret fires blazing in mortal eyes, so love as a light in Beren's heart is a good metaphor. I'm inclined towards that, but there's plenty of time to change it.

Back to the to-do list:

- Sing 'Camp'. Yeah, okay, I'll give that a shot and report back.

EDIT: Camp, sung? With more than a few re-recorded lines, but I think I got pretty close to what it's supposed to sound like.

hS
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Old 01-06-2022, 07:39 PM   #542
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Yaaay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
You've been really, really, really busy!
^.^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
- Re-sing Appeal with the new score.

- Fix up the animation for Appeal to account for the above.
If you still have the "raw" Audacity file, I would recommend just replacing the music track with the new score, and adjusting the pause in between the two sections to match up to the existing vocals. The speed is the same, everything is the same, just the length of the pause is different. No need to re-sing and re-animate unless you want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
For the 'duty' stanza, what is Finrod saying? He was brought to Middle-earth by the Oath, but he also chose his own course. He was following his duty, not out for revenge.

Ooh. You know what?

For the Oath's sake I forsook my own home, braved the Great Sea and bitter cold
But duty I chose
Duty I chose
Duty I choose
Never revenge.


Keeps the repeat, emphasises duty, and makes that shift from the Exile being his duty, to his duty to Beren as his vassal. And chose/choose is close enough to a rhyme that it doesn't sound bad.
If you like it, I'm down. I like the concept. But I have argued this stanza too many times in my head now to the point where it sounds ridiculous no matter what I say, so you make the final call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Now for 'account'. We want to say that knowing Beren - probably just for this one day, given the time compression inherent in a play - has made Finrod realise that love isn't this thing that you try and fit in a box. He's talking both about Beren's strength - and his own weakness, in abandoning Amarie for duty, rather than staying with her for love.
I think he also realizes that love is capable of overcoming the impossible - love knows no rules! So what if he is in ME and Amarie is in Valinor? Somehow love can still triumph in the end, and he need not be forlorn forever. Hope is not yet lost, the song is not yet finished, there is still time to do the impossible. Get Beren a Silmaril. Fix the Doom of the Noldor. Find Amarie. Simple. Because estel, that's why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
But in the song your heart has sung tonight?

or

But by the light your heart shines forth tonight?

I think 'heart' is a good word to work in here, because... it's the title of the next song. ^_^ The whole sequence is visual metaphors, and down in 'Truth' we have the secret fires blazing in mortal eyes, so love as a light in Beren's heart is a good metaphor. I'm inclined towards that, but there's plenty of time to change it.
Heart light. Heart bright. And at last I see tonight. Wish I may, wish I might. Hear the song I sing tonight.

(Alternatively: Untrembling I gaze into Fate's eyes - and she is going e'er so slightly cross-eyed...)

But only in the glow of your heart's light?

...Because there really isn't any reason for "tonight" other than rhyme. Though the more natural phrase would have been "in the light of your heart's glow".

Hmm.

I think it's important to underline that Finrod only just now realizes this simple but life philosophy changing concept. Does he get that across with only "at last" in the next line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
EDIT: Camp, sung? With more than a few re-recorded lines, but I think I got pretty close to what it's supposed to sound like.
More yaaay! :-D

Beren's lines threw me off a little at first because you sang them a little differently than the sketch I'm used to hearing, but I think they still land either in his right harmony or with the note Finrod sings, so it all works. I think I am back to my old adage though - if you don't mind making the music a liiiitle bit louder in the final version?
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Old 01-10-2022, 12:38 PM   #543
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
If you still have the "raw" Audacity file, I would recommend just replacing the music track with the new score, and adjusting the pause in between the two sections to match up to the existing vocals. The speed is the same, everything is the same, just the length of the pause is different. No need to re-sing and re-animate unless you want to.
Oh, well in that case:

05 - Entrance & Appeal - 2022 version

With (hopefully) correctly adjusted choir and inserted new recording.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
If you like it, I'm down. I like the concept. But I have argued this stanza too many times in my head now to the point where it sounds ridiculous no matter what I say, so you make the final call.
So we'll go with this...

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Get Beren a Silmaril. Fix the Doom of the Noldor. Find Amarie. Simple. Because estel, that's why.
*.* Oh Finrod.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
But only in the glow of your heart's light

I think it's important to underline that Finrod only just now realizes this simple but life philosophy changing concept. Does he get that across with only "at last" in the next line?
I think it does. The 'your' is already leading us there, given that he's really only just met Beren, and the 'only... at last' structure makes it clear. Also this is far and away the best version of this line yet. ^_^

I've also slapped myself on the forehead and adjusted the wounds line. My wounds you have opened afresh this hour scans just as well and actually works as English, and I don't know why it took me so long to see it. (I think I was fixated on the 'in' being essential.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Beren's lines threw me off a little at first because you sang them a little differently than the sketch I'm used to hearing, but I think they still land either in his right harmony or with the note Finrod sings, so it all works. I think I am back to my old adage though - if you don't mind making the music a liiiitle bit louder in the final version?
Well, since you asked so nicely...

Camp, adjusted

With two re-recorded lines, and the music boosted by 2 dB. Any louder than that, and I feel like it starts drowning me out in the final duet; I can adjust different parts of my singing if you think I'm too quiet/loud relative to the music at different points.

So... if both of these are good [crosses fingers], then I'm down to animations and Dream. Yay!

hS
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Old 01-10-2022, 05:30 PM   #544
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Wheeeeee! Perfection. ^.^ Thanks for adjusting them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I've also slapped myself on the forehead and adjusted the wounds line. My wounds you have opened afresh this hour scans just as well and actually works as English, and I don't know why it took me so long to see it. (I think I was fixated on the 'in' being essential.)
*Yoda shakes head in a bog somewhere, watching another Yodaism flicker and go out*

I mean, it sounds perfectly normal, and it scans well. I remember flipping this line back and forth, trying to get it to fit, but somehow this did not occur to me either. I don't know what I was fixated on, maybe having a breath where the phrase "pauses". Regardless, I salute your epiphany.



Meanwhile, I have been studying Heart a little bit (yes, studying, because I really don't have a great sense of it), and realized we haven't really followed the rhyming scheme or meter in a couple places. However, on further consideration, I think that it's not critical for us to follow them exactly, it should still sound ok. The meter might be a little weird, but might not... I will have to sketch, and then we'll see. It's a weird song - it's like it wants to repeat, but it actually doesn't have that many truly repetitive sections. It's weird. But what I can say is I think I've been underappreciating Amarie in that actress's performance, biased by either V1 or her handful of nonsensical lines. She is actually really good, and sings very well, and I like her music.
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Old 01-11-2022, 06:35 AM   #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Wheeeeee! Perfection. ^.^ Thanks for adjusting them.
No problem. ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Meanwhile, I have been studying Heart a little bit ... It's a weird song - it's like it wants to repeat, but it actually doesn't have that many truly repetitive sections. It's weird. But what I can say is I think I've been underappreciating Amarie in that actress's performance, biased by either V1 or her handful of nonsensical lines. She is actually really good, and sings very well, and I like her music.
It is an odd one. I feel like a lot of the new songs are - "Meeting" jumps around a lot in key, and "Wind" is... well, yeah. But I'm really looking forward to it, and Celebestel and I agree that it would be really nice to do it as a duet if possible.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
... realized we haven't really followed the rhyming scheme or meter in a couple places. However, on further consideration, I think that it's not critical for us to follow them exactly, it should still sound ok. The meter might be a little weird, but might not... I will have to sketch, and then we'll see.
Yeah, this is another one I wrote pretty much by ear. Let's see... Google Translate lets me hack together a transliteration of the Russian, from which I *think* the rhyme scheme should look like this:

FINROD: AAB
AMARIE: CCB < Or are these lines both ABC? тебе/утрате and хребет/предатель look like they should be rhyming couples, but the overall structure disagrees, and if you swallow the final consonants then they would work as тебе/хребет & утрате/предатель.

FINROD: ABC
AMARIE: ABC

FINROD: AB
AMARIE: AB

FINROD/AMARIE/BOTH: ABC
AMARIE: ABC

AMARIE: ABC ABD

AMARIE: ABC
FINROD/AMARIE/BOTH: AB(D)C < 'D' being слова, which acts like the end of a line while technically not being one.

I think the only places I break this scheme in the translation are the first set - assuming they're meant to be ABC/ABC - and the very last B, if you don't accept him/did as a rhyme. But it's not much worse than the other rhymes I've forced in there. ^_^

Let's see if I can hack together an ABC/ABC for the first set...

FINROD:
Speak, oh my heart: [now] back to thee I am turning
What can I sing, to forget what's lost to me
And to preserve you in peace?

AMARIE:
Crimson the night has passed over mountains undying
Speak, oh my heart: do you begin to betray me?
Why won't you speak unto me?


But I haven't a clue about the syllable counts; I feel like we already added some (that 'now' in the first line), and I know I tend to leave a lot of silent beats in this song. As in all things musical, I seek your guidance.

Speak, G-5-5: now I am turning to thee!
What should I sing to preserve Russian rhyming
And find the meter I seek?


hS
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Old 01-11-2022, 06:13 PM   #546
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Good transliterating. Honestly, as I said, I am not fussed about breaking the rhyming scheme, I think it still works and it doesn't jar, and even the meter might be worked in somehow. But for thoroughness sake, going by stanzas, and (hopefully) marking all the jarring deviations from meter (because several lines technically don't match perfectly but still scan fine). I'm bolding the stanzas with the rhyme change, but meh, if they don't follow the pattern it's not a loss. The meter is the more challenging thing.

Speak... turning to thee
FINROD: ABC
AMARIE: ABC - "undying" sticks out by a syllable, which is a real bummer because I like it.

Listen... ignore how you ache
FINROD: ABC - can we cut "A"? If not, it can stay as a hanging syllable.
AMARIE: ABC

Look though... scream through the Night
FINROD: AB - "chasms of ice" wants more syllables... not sure how many, doesn't have to match exactly. One or two would work. There is just space which seems to need filling after "over". Maybe stick an adjective in there?
AMARIE: AB

Feel... like a gate
FINROD: ABC
AMARIE: ABC

Heed me... barred gate
AMARIE: ABC BBC - "pathways of fate" is missing a syllable, but could be sung as "fa-ate".

Answer...turning to thee
AMARIE/FINROD/BOTH: ABC ABC - could stick an extra syllable in the first line but don't have to (eg "now/for I am turning to thee"); optional.



So yeah, not that many places. And of these, I think "undying" is probably most awkward. I haven't sketched it yet but I will try to play with the music to make it less jarring, because I really like that stanza by content.
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Old 01-12-2022, 03:38 AM   #547
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Headnote to the following: I think you're right that a sketch is the place to start. We need to see how well what's in my head matches up with the actual tune, and we can't do that while Ripsime Giulezian's own complex performance is in the way.

But I'm still gonna fiddle with this now. ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Speak... turning to thee
FINROD: ABC
AMARIE: ABC - "undying" sticks out by a syllable, which is a real bummer because I like it.
A-la-ya noch' ot-stu-pa-yet za gor-nyy khre-bet.
Crim-son the / night / has passed o-ver / moun-tains / un-dy-ing

I think it technically does fit, but the natural way to sing it is to stretch "night" over "noch' ot". Can we fix it with a simple "o'er"? I think the final syllables natch up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Listen... ignore how you ache
FINROD: ABC - can we cut "A"? If not, it can stay as a hanging syllable.
AMARIE: ABC
We can cut the A if necessary, but hanging first syllables (it's barely a syllable, it's a schwa!) are a venerable tradition, so it might just stay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Look though... scream through the Night
FINROD: AB - "chasms of ice" wants more syllables... not sure how many, doesn't have to match exactly. One or two would work. There is just space which seems to need filling after "over". Maybe stick an adjective in there?
AMARIE: AB
That one's my fault - the word is "cha-a-sms". I'm hitting three distinct notes during her "ninami".

[QUOTE=Galadriel55;734322]
Feel... like a gate
FINROD: ABC
AMARIE: ABC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Heed me... barred gate
AMARIE: ABC BBC - "pathways of fate" is missing a syllable, but could be sung as "fa-ate".
I think that's what I was doing. The problem is that the emphasis falls on the penultimate syllable, so we'd end up with "the pathways of HIS (fate)", which is just... wrong.

How is that second one a BBC? GTranslate gives the six final words as pustoy / vodoyu / bredut // sud'boy / soboyu / svetu, which looks about as solid an ABC/AB(C) as you could get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Answer...turning to thee
AMARIE/FINROD/BOTH: ABC ABC - could stick an extra syllable in the first line but don't have to (eg "now/for I am turning to thee"); optional.
Putting it in as "now", because this is supposed to be a repeat of the first line.

"Heart" was a really difficult song to fit the lyrics too, I admit: partly because we only had one performance, and partly because it just... crams words into every line. I think we'll have something that works, and works well, but yeah, it's going to be one of the loosest adaptations. (Which is fair, given that we've already got six! different! translations! of "Сердце мое".)

EDIT: It occurs to me that all this "oh, that's how I do it" would work a lot better if you could... y'know, hear me. So I a capella'd the song. ^_^

Part 1 & Part 2

One pass, no editing, haven't even listened back, but maybe it'll be helpful. Sung along directly with V2, so has all the long pauses that should be filled by music. Split in two because I got lost in the middle and had to stop. ^_^

I sing many fewer syllables than her. Cripes.

hS
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Old 01-13-2022, 02:28 PM   #548
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And in other the same news... videos!

05 - Appeal

11 - Camp

Camp turned out to be really easy, so I rattled it out this evening. Appeal was just substituting the various pieces.

hS
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Old 01-13-2022, 04:24 PM   #549
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Hurray! Two more down! We made it firmly over the halfway mark! And when Dream and Minions are finished, we will be down to a third. This feels like actual progress. ^.^

On a different note - you're right, the sketch is totally the place to start. That was uphill work. For one thing, normal cords are such a rarity here. Why does it all have to be slightly off-harmony and weird? And then the non-repeats. It wants to repeat. It starts repeating. But then somewhere through the stanza it breaks the pattern and goes its own way. Wind - each "second" of the pair of stanzas was in a higher key than the first, but it does repeat over the 3 pairs of stanzas. Meeting is just non-repetitive by nature, each section is its own thing. Heart wants to be like Wind, but ends up being like Meeting. It is so discombobulating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
A-la-ya noch' ot-stu-pa-yet za gor-nyy khre-bet.
Crim-son the / night / has passed o-ver / moun-tains / un-dy-ing

I think it technically does fit, but the natural way to sing it is to stretch "night" over "noch' ot". Can we fix it with a simple "o'er"? I think the final syllables natch up.
The problem here is not as pronounced with the sketch as it was when I was a'capella'ing to V2, so maybe we can get away with it. The problem is not in the middle of the line, but the last syllable. In Russian it ends sharply on the downbeat, and "un-DY-ing" has the extra off-beat at the end. It sounded pretty bad with V2, but with the sketch, without Ripsime, it could probably pass unnoticed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I think that's what I was doing. The problem is that the emphasis falls on the penultimate syllable, so we'd end up with "the pathways of HIS (fate)", which is just... wrong.

How is that second one a BBC? GTranslate gives the six final words as pustoy / vodoyu / bredut // sud'boy / soboyu / svetu, which looks about as solid an ABC/AB(C) as you could get.
Hmm, yeah, "fa-ate" probably will just need to be that. Again, if you don't know better, perhaps it could go unnoticed.

And - "sud'boyu". I think this already happened, in Meeting or something, where a word can be said 2 ways with a different syllable count. But again, on reflection - meh. Unless you expect a BBC there, it works perfectly fine as a ABC/ABC (like indeed all the rest of the song!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
"Heart" was a really difficult song to fit the lyrics too, I admit: partly because we only had one performance, and partly because it just... crams words into every line. I think we'll have something that works, and works well, but yeah, it's going to be one of the loosest adaptations. (Which is fair, given that we've already got six! different! translations! of "Сердце мое".)
Agreed. It's probably one of the most difficult ones both for music and lyrics. (Though the most difficult to translate was probably Duel with its twisty rhyming scheme and short lines, and you made it a masterpiece!)
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Old 01-14-2022, 10:24 AM   #550
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A sketch! Eeeexcellent. After a quick singthrough, here are the lines that seem not to currently fit (ignoring cha-a-sms and fa-ate), along with suggestions on how we could fill the [mis][sing] [beats].

What should I sing, [] to for-get what has left me < silent beat
Crim-son the night [][] has passed over moun-tains un-dy(ing) < long 'ni-i-ght'
Strange [] how that which once broke, [] no more can be break-ing < silent beat on first, 'now' on second
(A) new dawn is ris-ing from out of the sea-sca-ttered mists < Remove 'A'.
Look thou, my heart: [] for-get his fair face and eyes bright < ???
Feel, o my heart, you are bruised like the bi-tter-est fru-uit < as noted, works with 'fruit' as two syllables.
And you're stunned by [] sum-mer's late wine < Add 'the'.
Feel, o my heart, I [] know not what course I should take < for, that, or how I
Feath-ers of dawn flar-ing up [] in mo-o-rning sky blue < 'upwards' or 'up into'? Also long 'morning' as noted.
Heed me, my heart, you are not [] trapped by a barred gate < 'no longer trapped by barred gate'?
Send your la-ment [] soar-ing sky-ward to greet him < silent beat?

Thoughts?

hS
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Old 01-14-2022, 03:20 PM   #551
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A sketch! Eeeexcellent. After a quick singthrough, here are the lines that seem not to currently fit (ignoring cha-a-sms and fa-ate), along with suggestions on how we could fill the [mis][sing] [beats].

...

Thoughts?
I think most of these silent beats / long syllables were fine. As long as it sings, it sings. I think content takes priority over exact meter here mostly.

I like "up into morning sky blue", I think it makes it easier to sing.

"No longer trapped by barred gate" though implies it once was trapped... and I am no longer sure what Amarie means again. I think the line works if "not trapped" goes as 2 regular (slower) beats instead of a triplet.
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Old 01-18-2022, 03:51 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I think most of these silent beats / long syllables were fine. As long as it sings, it sings. I think content takes priority over exact meter here mostly.

I like "up into morning sky blue", I think it makes it easier to sing.

"No longer trapped by barred gate" though implies it once was trapped... and I am no longer sure what Amarie means again. I think the line works if "not trapped" goes as 2 regular (slower) beats instead of a triplet.
Took a quick run at it. Happy with "into morning sky blue", and I went for "you are not trapped behind a barred gate" for the extra syllable. I've also adopted "the" into the summer wine line. I think we have a working version! I'll try and find time to do a test duet with Celebestel if that would be useful?

hS
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Old 01-18-2022, 06:12 AM   #553
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Took a quick run at it. Happy with "into morning sky blue", and I went for "you are not trapped behind a barred gate" for the extra syllable. I've also adopted "the" into the summer wine line. I think we have a working version! I'll try and find time to do a test duet with Celebestel if that would be useful?

hS
Probably would be. Since all the versions we have are just Amarie alone, I find it hard to remember who sings what can't say if it should be done differently as a duet. I am also playing around in my head with different styles and instruments. V2 Heart has a sort of tropical feel to it, I could try for that. Or do something more classical, in the style of Dream. I don't think the Wind instrument combo works for it, especially as a duet - it needs more instruments.

But I am again hitting a busy patch with a new rotation, and won't get around to it for some time unfortunately.
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Old 01-19-2022, 08:47 PM   #554
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Entirely unrelated news - more videos! It occurred to me today that it's been a while since I've done a skim of new postings, and here's what a search brought up:

Renunciation - not my favourite version. For one thing, you can't see Cel&Cur. Also, I don't really like Maksim Rakovsky's take on Finrod here. And I am a bigger fan of the more classical takes on music. However, this production shares your ideas on denoting characters with heraldic devices!

Minions - is this the only performance outside the V1 and V2 casts? I feel like Minions isn't a commonly performed/recorded piece. Fun fact: in the spirit of having Finrod/Sauron switching roles, this time Sauron is played by Maksim Rakovsky, who was Finrod in the last batch of videos! I don't think I am surprised with this switch - he did play a very excellent Cauchon in Eterius's Joan of Arc production (the third of the Temple musical trilogy), and made a deliciously good villain.
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Old 01-20-2022, 02:53 AM   #555
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My plan is to try and record a duet version this weekend, but you know what they say about plans...

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Entirely unrelated news - more videos! It occurred to me today that it's been a while since I've done a skim of new postings, and here's what a search brought up:

Renunciation - not my favourite version. For one thing, you can't see Cel&Cur. Also, I don't really like Maksim Rakovsky's take on Finrod here. And I am a bigger fan of the more classical takes on music. However, this production shares your ideas on denoting characters with heraldic devices!

Minions - is this the only performance outside the V1 and V2 casts? I feel like Minions isn't a commonly performed/recorded piece. Fun fact: in the spirit of having Finrod/Sauron switching roles, this time Sauron is played by Maksim Rakovsky, who was Finrod in the last batch of videos! I don't think I am surprised with this switch - he did play a very excellent Cauchon in Eterius's Joan of Arc production (the third of the Temple musical trilogy), and made a deliciously good villain.
Ooh! I'm not a huge fan of Beren's Iron Man look (though at least they didn't wind up using his own Silmaril-themed device!), but I do like White Robe Sauron. Not his knockoff iron crown, of course, but the coat looks very good.

So... this is the same actor playing both parts? Clearly with the same set, too, though the dates say there's a couple of months between them. I admit I wouldn't expect him to jump back and forwards between the two main roles!

hS
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Old 01-21-2022, 10:49 AM   #556
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In advance of the weekend, I've done my best to record Beren's part for Dream. I wound up just singing along to your "Beren - duo" recording for the last bit, so hopefully it's right? If I've gone wrong again, just let me know where. (I've left the whole backing track in, so, y'know... just skip to the right bits.)

hS
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Old 01-22-2022, 06:00 PM   #557
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I've had a few denser work shifts and am mainly Downsing on my phone, so I haven't been able to listen to your recording yet. I will do in the next few days. But it just occurred to me that Heart is again pitched in the somewhat odd key, for Lora's low voice. Do we need to move the pitch again? I think for Wind we moved it up by a third. Let me know how you and Cebestel feel about this one. Up by a third here would put it in C major, which I for one would not be complaining about. But go by what you're comfortable with.
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Old 01-23-2022, 03:01 PM   #558
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Responding properly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Ooh! I'm not a huge fan of Beren's Iron Man look (though at least they didn't wind up using his own Silmaril-themed device!), but I do like White Robe Sauron. Not his knockoff iron crown, of course, but the coat looks very good.
Iron Man Beren. Lol .

Is that Thingol's insignia posted on the wall? You can see it around 1:15. A remnant of a Doriath set? Hard to say here, because they're swinging the camera and they don't show the entire stage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
So... this is the same actor playing both parts? Clearly with the same set, too, though the dates say there's a couple of months between them. I admit I wouldn't expect him to jump back and forwards between the two main roles!
I doubt it's from the same performance. But it's hard to say for sure since they don't say who else is playing which role. It would be rather awkward to Duel with yourself. But now we have 2 Finrod-gone-Sauron actors. ^.^

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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
In advance of the weekend, I've done my best to record Beren's part for Dream. I wound up just singing along to your "Beren - duo" recording for the last bit, so hopefully it's right? If I've gone wrong again, just let me know where. (I've left the whole backing track in, so, y'know... just skip to the right bits.)
Yesssss!!! All both of the thumbs up! I really wish I could record Luthien right now... Unfortunately most of my recording happens in the car, and it's a little impractical in winter temperatures, and will need to wait for milder weather. And a good singing day. But yesssssss!!!


Back to Heart - here is what it sounds like transposed up a little bit. Let me know if you guys want it a bit more up or a bit more down or what is more comfortable.
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Old 01-24-2022, 05:31 AM   #559
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Is that Thingol's insignia posted on the wall? You can see it around 1:15. A remnant of a Doriath set? Hard to say here, because they're swinging the camera and they don't show the entire stage.
It is (though for a horrible moment I thought it was Gil-Galad's!). My guess is they've got either Feanor's or (one of) Finrod's on the opposite banner, but it could be the Eye of Sauron for all we know!)

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I doubt it's from the same performance. But it's hard to say for sure since they don't say who else is playing which role. It would be rather awkward to Duel with yourself. But now we have 2 Finrod-gone-Sauron actors. ^.^
What's the saying? "You either die a Finrod, or live long enough to see yourself become Sauron"? Something like that. ^_^

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Yesssss!!! All both of the thumbs up! I really wish I could record Luthien right now... Unfortunately most of my recording happens in the car, and it's a little impractical in winter temperatures, and will need to wait for milder weather. And a good singing day. But yesssssss!!!
Phew! No rush, of course; I'll put the second half of the animation together so that it will be ready when you are.

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Back to Heart - here is what it sounds like transposed up a little bit. Let me know if you guys want it a bit more up or a bit more down or what is more comfortable.
Answer is I don't know. Celebestel took one look at the song and had a very similar reaction to yours: "what is this, this is not how music should go, WHAT". So she's listening over it this week to see if she can get her head round it.

I know she commented "I won't be able to hit that" at one point, but it fell right between a high and a low line, so I'm honestly not sure what she meant! I'll offer her the alternate version and see if it's better.

hS
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Old 01-24-2022, 05:28 PM   #560
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Answer is I don't know. Celebestel took one look at the song and had a very similar reaction to yours: "what is this, this is not how music should go, WHAT". So she's listening over it this week to see if she can get her head round it.

Quote:
The Defense Professor.

Was being detained.

In a cell.

The Defense Professor was staring at the watching Auror and humming.

The Defense Professor has not spoken a single word since he arrived in this particular cell. He has only been humming.

The humming started as a simple children's lullaby, the one that in Muggle Britain begins, Lullaby, and goodnight...

This tune was hummed, without variation, over and over, for seven minutes, to establish the underlying pattern.

Then began the elaborations upon the theme. Phrases hummed too slow, with long pauses in between, so that the listener's mind helplessly waits and waits for the next note, the next phrase. And then, when that next phrase comes, it is so out of key, so unbelievably awfully out of key, not just out of key for the previous phrases but sung at a pitch which does not correspond to any key, that you would have to believe this person had spent hours deliberately practicing their humming just to acquire such perfect anti-pitch.

It bears the same semblance to music as the awful dead voice of a Dementor bears to human speech.

And this horrible, horrible humming is impossible to ignore. It is similar to a known lullaby, but it departs from that pattern unpredictably. It sets up expectations and then violates them, never in any constant pattern that would permit the humming to fade into the background. The listener's brain cannot prevent itself from expecting the anti-musical phrases to complete, nor prevent itself from noticing the surprises.

The only possible explanation for how this mode of humming came to exist is that it was deliberately designed by some unspeakably cruel genius who woke up one day, feeling bored with ordinary torture, who decided to handicap himself and find out whether he could break someone's sanity just by humming at them.
~ Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, Eliezer Yudkowsky



Anyways, I'm glad I'm not the only one who had to study this song.
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