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04-20-2006, 10:10 PM | #41 | ||||
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05-04-2006, 08:34 AM | #42 |
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They are the same thing. In The Hobbit they're all called goblins, but in TLOTR those in Moria are called goblins. I prefer TLOTR distinction.
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05-04-2006, 12:43 PM | #43 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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05-05-2006, 08:29 AM | #44 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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In theory they are the same species this is true however they are different races
a good example is the difference among the race of man we've got Caucasian, Asian, Black, Hispanic Its the same with orcs and goblins theyre overall the same however there are noticable differences
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05-08-2006, 07:16 AM | #45 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Yes, I agree they're the same species.
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05-30-2006, 08:35 AM | #46 | |
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As far as I know orcs and goblins are the same thing. Just in the Hobbit, they are referred to goblins. But everywhere else, they are called orcs. So yes, they are the same.
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05-30-2006, 11:06 AM | #47 | |
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For a Wikipedia slant on this subject try:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)#Azog Quote:
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05-31-2006, 10:53 AM | #48 |
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Cheers! I beleive you have helped conclude this interesting debate. A toast gentlemen *click of glasses*.
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Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia Last edited by Rhod the Red; 05-31-2006 at 11:00 AM. |
05-31-2006, 12:36 PM | #49 |
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Tuor, I'm ok with Wikipedia's article, except for the last paragraph. As I quoted there are two times when Grishnakh is referred to as a "goblin," and he was a messenger that served Sauron directly.
I will note that it is interesting how typically "Orcs" are capitalized and "goblins" are not. Tolkien was a linguist, I've always thought that "goblins" tend more to kind of like slang, therefor uncapitalized, where "Orc" is the proper term for them. Others suggest that this creates a slight difference between the two. But, as can be clearly shown Orcs and goblins are two words for the same thing. An orc can be called a goblin, and vice versa.
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01-29-2010, 09:58 AM | #50 | ||||||
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Old thread I know, but my opinion is a bit different from the posts in it. First, responding to Wikipedia (quoted for interest above)...
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And here is where I'm not sure people will agree, but to my mind orc is not a translation, but the actual word used by Hobbits. No one in Middle-earth ever said the English word 'goblin' of course -- this is a translation. Tolkien loved words, and was finely attuned to sound and (his perception of) sound-sense. Tolkien liked the sound of orc for these creatures; it seemed to fit. And like 'Elves' for his Quendi, he knew that 'goblin' didn't really suit his goblins in any event. And why can't orc be actual Westron? It's not very far from actual Sindarin Orch for example (which ends in a sound like in German ach, not English church). In Tolkien's day the word orc was hardly generally known, and the meaning of the Old English word (as far as JRRT was concerned) was 'demon'. The inspiration could be Primary World, but just like certain other real world inspirations, like Moria for instance, Tolkien could characterize such words as Westron or Elvish. But how to explain his use of both orc and goblin? in the Appendices to The Lord of the Rings Tolkien reveals his mode as translator, and translation provided the answer. 'Samwise' is a translation of what other Hobbits really called Sam: Banazîr (Ban for short), for example of a name, and after The Lord of the Rings was published, Tolkien wrote a guide for translators of his book, and there he explained the relationship of orc to 'goblin': Quote:
And when another edition of The Hobbit arose in the 1960s, Tolkien took the opportunity to explain the words to his readership at large: Quote:
Take any example then, and it's just a matter of the way the translator has rendered it. Any instance of 'goblin' is really an instance of orc in the imagined original -- or any instance of orc could have been translated with 'goblin'. In the end the explanation is simple enough: the words are not only interchangeable, but one is used to translate the other (just not in every instance). No distinction of any kind is intended. _______________ A) There is a matter in which examples help disprove an interpretation of Tolkien's published explanation -- an interpretation (raised in the thread) which goes: since Hobgoblin refers to larger kinds, then 'goblin' refers, or possibly refers, to smaller kinds. However Tolkien's explanation works fine as: hobgoblin refers to larger kinds, goblin refers to all kinds. If we had a compound word in English for larger dogs, like 'gredog' (greatdog) for imaginary instance, would that mean that the word 'dog' only refers to smaller kinds? Examples show that 'goblin' is not reserved for smaller kinds, and the former interpretation will not hold up in my opinion. B) A futher issue involves 'unpublished' or draft texts: obviously there's nothing wrong with knowing the texts 'behind the scenes', but similar to the matter of the two towers (the question: which towers are the two towers), the simple text published by Tolkien himself can become part of a confusing muddle once draft text or letters are introduced, and be lost or obscured in the pile. Tolkien was not against changing his mind, but what he chose to reveal to his readership is distinct from alternate views he may have held at various times, which remained his private papers as far as he was concerned, by comparison. |
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01-29-2010, 02:46 PM | #51 |
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Well, if I remember correctly, I think that goblin is used earlier on and eventually stops being used in favour of orc. And yes, it is mostly used in relation to Hobbits.
I think the word goblin is used to show the orcs as creatures of legend which the Hobbits know only from stories, and so the reader can relate to it as a distant tale. I don't think that anyone other than the Hobbits ever use it in LOTR, and it fades out in narration as well. This is probably because by this time, they are faced with the reality of the orcs, and hear everyone talk of orcs, so that makes the reader see them as what Tolkien wants- People already have images in their minds of goblins, and so do the hobbits probably, but with the word orc Tolkien makes them his own. And since it is Frodo writing this, and we see him becoming less and less hobbitish throughout, I think this is a sign of him being more aware of the real world, and seeing orcs as living beings rather than just stories. And when they are real they are referred to as orcs by everyone else, so that is the name. The hobbit is much more fairy-tale-ish, so I imagine the the word goblin is more appropriate here, whereas LOTR deals with the grimmer, harsher reality and so uses the word which they were called at the time, as goblin would make them seem less real. The word orc itself contains harsher sounds than goblin anyway, and we know that Tolkien thought a lot about the sound of words. So in summary, I think that the change of the word goblin progresses into the word orc to show the change in Frodo, and his attitude towards them. I agree with Galin about orc being the Westron term, especially as it is so close to the Sindarin orch. As a linguist, I'm sure Tolkien was aware of each, and that goblin already evokes certain images, whereas orc, (for most people, at least) is something entirely new and exciting and is what Frodo has to face (not the goblins of tales, but the living, breathing, fighting orcs).
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01-29-2010, 05:20 PM | #52 | |
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Regarding what you've suggested above, I'm not sure how it could be supported by the examples -- but anyway, as you agree that orc is Westron, your idea implies the notion that there is some other unknown Westron word Frodo is really using, which is being translated by English 'goblin'... ... but Tolkien explains 'goblin' has been used to translate orc. |
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01-29-2010, 06:42 PM | #53 | ||
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The Lothlorien thing is still in the FOTR, and maybe Gamling saying "goblin" there is meant to show Rohirric superstition (remember that they're afraid of Pukel-men, which means goblin-men), as well as his fear at the time, connecting this huge attack on the fortress with ancient tales of huge attacks on fortresses. Anyway, I think that in the Two Towers, that is the only mention of goblins by any non-hobbit, and I don't think it is ever mentioned in ROTK. But actually, the particular passage you referred to may suggest that there is a difference between orcs and goblins, so perhaps we were wrong: Quote:
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01-30-2010, 06:26 AM | #54 | ||
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01-30-2010, 10:10 AM | #55 | ||
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Frodo using an original word other than orc is not impossible as a general theory, but the note to The Hobbit tells us the original word that 'goblin' translates is orc itself, being the Common Speech word the Hobbits used at the time. If orc has been usually translated by 'goblin' in The Hobbit, but has been, in theory, 'retained' (though not in every instance) in The Lord of the Rings, then hasn't the reader essentially been told that the original word used throughout the tale is really orc? When one sees 'Sam' we know Frodo wrote Ban; and when one sees 'goblin' we know Frodo wrote orc. Or if Tolkien as translator is doing as you suggest -- despite that Frodo used orc in the original let's say -- one has to contend with the appearances of orc early on in the tale. Orc is used early on in The Lord of the Rings (Frodo uses it 'in speech' in The Shadow of the Past for example). How are the examples, including the number of examples, of orc versus 'goblin' as they appear in the early parts of the tale supporting your idea? Quote:
(maybe *orkil could mean 'goblin-man'? total speculation! and probably wrong, but loosely based on Banakil, Tarkil at least) Last edited by Galin; 01-30-2010 at 11:30 AM. |
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