Your opinion on Aragorn - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

busybee · 10-01-2002, 11:44 AM

This might be only me but did anyone else find aragorn kind of a pain???I mean Yeah he was a king but not yet and Legolas was a Prince as well so what happened ther??I'm just saying that I thought Aragorn was kind off bossy and annoying sometimes. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Legolas · 10-01-2002, 12:28 PM

I didn't. Aragorn was heir to the throne of the last remaining resistance to Mordor that had strength left. He was also the closest to Gandalf, the Fellowship's original leader. He was the most traveled of the group by far and had the most leader-like qualities.

Legolas may have been a prince, but his father was still alive and well. Thranduil's kingdom of Mirkwood wasn't exactly a military powerhouse, though they were skilled.

Perhaps you could elaborate. Could you list some examples of what you're talking about? What does Aragorn do specifically that irritates you?

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-01-2002, 12:37 PM

Look at how close Aragorn became to the members of The Fellowship. This shows his real human qualities best of all in my opinion. Possibly exclude Boromir from that but he died and the 2 didn't spend as much time together. At Boromir's death I certainly felt that Aragorn was very sad at the lack of time they spent together.

Plus, he was the hardiest of mortal men on Middle-Earth, and arguably one of the most skilled. All in all, reasons why I think Aragorn is immensely brilliant.

Telwilyeil Greenleaf · 10-01-2002, 12:45 PM

I think Aragorn's character was meant ( in your words )to be " a pain". Thats just the way JRRT wanted him to turn out. Plus I agree that it is all in someones opinion.

amyrlis · 10-01-2002, 12:59 PM

I believe that Aragorn played the role as the natural "leader" of the Fellowship due to the on-coming Age of Men. Legolas, as a current prince, may have "out-ranked" him, but the days of the elves were dwindling. If the quest succeeded, elves would fade, and consequently, men would rise up to take their place as the stewards of Middle-Earth. It would not have been right for an elf to lead the Fellowship. It had become Man's responsibility to see that Middle-Earth did not fall to Sauron. Aragorn may have seemed bossy, but in my opinion, he was feeling his way out as a leader, and he was thoughtful & just. It would not have been an easy task, deciding between fulfilling the quest or making for Gondor.

Tigerlily Gamgee · 10-01-2002, 02:23 PM

When you view him with a "character analysis" you realize that the journey was hard for him in many ways.
He dedicated himself to protect Frodo, and once the Fellowship was broken he lost that aspect.
He had the weight of his true love on his shoulders. He must have been in a lot of pain knowing that it may be possible that he would never see Arwen again.
He put all of the weight of protecting the human race on his shoulders.

There are many, many others factors that add to who he is and why he does things.

Elenna · 10-01-2002, 04:16 PM

I almost fell off my chair when I read this. Aragorn? A pain?

Sure, he may have come off as bossy, but he's a KING. If you had the fate of the world of men resting on your shoulders, a beautiful elf-maiden waiting for you to "get a real job", and a frolicking elf-prince to deal with, bossy might be the best way to be.

I personally think he comes off more as "commanding".

Ransom · 10-01-2002, 04:22 PM

Quite honestly, being a prince or a king means BS in a war. Sure, you might have been born a bit better off than your average grunt, but that won't save you from that arrow or your army from an ambush.

Aragorn was a leader. He lead the Fellowship after Gandalf's death. He adjusted his leadership style for a small group (him, Gimili, and Legolas) and for a large group (armies of Gondor-end of ROTK). He knew when to listen to his councilers (Great Debate) and when to act. Most of all, he knew his limits, and when to listen to advice. He knew that Gandalf was a far better leader than he was, and thus listened to him.

Sure, he may seem a little bit bossy to those used to the democratic political system, but so would most officers in the military. Those officers are the ones can bring their command home after a war.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: Ransom ]

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: Ransom ]

Elenna · 10-01-2002, 04:26 PM

I disagree - being a king and having others know it would put you in an immediate leadership position. It's sort of like in the scene where Aragorn's title is sweeping the city. All of the citizens of Minas Tirith start feeling more hopeful because "The King has come again." It had nothing to do with his military capabilities - it was just the name.

Ransom · 10-01-2002, 04:53 PM

You are correct in saying that being the king does come with a certain aspect of leadership. By being royalty, one inherits the demand for leadership, not the skill of leadership itself. Aragorn was first a leader of men, and then a king, as evidenced by his refusal to openly declare his position until it was advantagous to do so. Thus, his first concern was probably not Gondor as a whole, but the men and troops he commanded and the battles that he fought.

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: Ransom ]

Arwen Imladris · 10-01-2002, 05:47 PM

Hmm, this is a good discusion. I never personally had a problem with Aragorn. Part of the reason why Legolas didn't take charge was simply because he did not want to. He did not want that responsiblility. Perhaps Aragorn did not want to either but somebody had to.

Another thing is that Aragorn was The best of his race while Legolas was the 2nd best of his race. Even though it could be debated that Elves are more powerful then men, Legolas wasn't the top of his race.

Aragorn, besides knowing the lands better, also knew more about the ring and its past, also about the politics of other peoples. I think that he was far better at guessing what the other person was thinking or planning then either Legolas or Gimli or Boromir.

Aragorn had a lot on his plate, as has been said before. Arwen, Gondor, Boromir, Men, Elrond, Gandalf, all the hobbits... If he is a little testy every once and awhile, GIVE HIM A BREAK! If I were him, I would have cracked a long time before LOTR started.

Evisse the Blue · 10-02-2002, 08:18 AM

Quote:

I never personally had a problem with Aragorn.

Me neither! He's been a pal for as long as I've known him, since kindergarten that is! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Seriously though, I believe lots of people didn't quite like him before they learnt that he was king and all -take Butterbur, for instance - but they were judging only by appearances. He himself once said that he desired spontaneous trust, and longed for a friend (don't know the exact quote).

I for one - for reasons I cannot explain, always considered Aragorn to be less of a hero than Frodo, or Gandalf,(or the elves for that matter - for whom the completion of their quest led to sorrow, though of a different kind) mostly because in my mind his reasons for his deeds are more selfish: it all comes down to one thing: being a king and marrying Arwen. I know my view is not exactly correct and the others had as much to lose if the quest failed, but it's just my own little idiosincracy. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Selmo · 10-02-2002, 08:57 AM

Aragorn is as he is; sometimes Strider, sometimes Elessar.

He appears to be above the opinions of a humble hobbit like myself.

TolkienGurl · 10-02-2002, 11:39 AM

Aragorn was not "bossy"! He knew that it was his responsibility as heir to the throne of Gondor to take charge and lead and that's what he did.
'Aragorn, Aragorn, he's our man, if he can't do it no one can!' or, more accurate, '...if he won't do it no one will!'

Ruthwen · 10-02-2002, 03:35 PM

Well, I partly agree and partly disagree. I think that in The Two Towers when he gets huffy (for want of a better word) over his sword, he acts a bit bigheaded. But I think in general, he's just an excellent leader. He can give orders without alienating himself from those he commands.

Gorothlammothiel · 10-02-2002, 04:01 PM

I do not believe that Aragorn is or was bossy, nor do I think he is a pain. He is a great character of strength, skill, knowledge and understanding.

A little reserved he may be but I believe there was point to this. His individuality, to me, symbolises mans sturggle in our own world to do what is right. To do the responsible thing and try to please everyone. A not-so-easy task. He forms relationships with each member of the fellowship that are entirely individual and different, valuing each of them. He felt he was the one to take charge of the fellowship after Gandalf because not only was he well-travlled and knowledgable, but also because the friendships he made allowed him to do so.

While Leoglas was a prince, he was not as knowlegable as Aragorn and didn't have the same views on others as Aragorn did. Legolas, at first, would not trust dwarves, just as the dwarves would not trust the elves. Aragorn did, but was also weary, even of his own race with Boromir. Aragorn had a level head, a sense of right and wrong and most of the other leadership qualities. And for those reasons, I think he was justified in what he did, to help all ME and take his place as King.

10-02-2002, 04:21 PM

I think he had to take up a leader role after Gandalf fell to the Balrog. Otherwise the fellowship would have fallen apart.

akhtene · 10-02-2002, 04:42 PM

To my mind Aragorn was just the perfect man to do what he was doing. He had the right (by birth) to lead men and elves, being a descendant of a glorious house. He got necessary training and knowledge in Rivendell and during his wonderings and military campaigns. And he’s got a definite aim, which can’t be diminished by having some personal motivation. He just knows what to do, how to do it and that there’s no-one around to do it better. Note how he always appears at the time he is most needed – at Bree, leading the fleet by Anduin, in Minas Tirith to heal Faramir and Eowyn.

Just imho I don't see anyone claiming Aragorn's responsibility. Gandalf is preoccupied with too many matters at once, and for part of the time outof action. As for Gimli and Legolas, I somehow see them as just observes for their races, watching that everything is done right. They allow themselves to be led, perhaps not having a motivation as strong as Aragorn’s. (Sorry if I Have misinterpreted things)

However strange it may seem, if I had to compare Aragorn and any other character, my choice would be Sam. They share that determination to do all that is in their power (and above it) and finding strength for it.
The teams Gandalf&Aragorn and Frodo&Sam have something in common. Gandalf has his restrictions; Frodo’s Burden is too heavy for him. But for Aragorn and Sam the Task could have never been completed. And Sam is quite a pain in the neck at times, hehe.

Tirned Tinnu · 10-02-2002, 04:50 PM

I believe that the opinion stated in the original question of this thread was due to viewing only the movie - and I will not go into that in this thread. I will say as all the rest have done:
Perhaps you have no idea the pressures upon this gentle man! Did you not see that he forsook sleep and comfort for weeks on end, dragging himself to the limits of human exaustion? He was never anything but humble and civil with the Hobbits until he arrived at Minas Tirith, and even then he bandied with them on their own level. Aragorn is my favorite character of Tolkien's barring Beleg Strongbow. I have never heard of a male character written with such eloquence of spreech, such a light hand, and such a noble heart. I have nothing but admiration for the character. I don't see how anyone could speak of him as a pain. Rather, I think of Peregrin Toook as a pain! Darn hobbit, always in trouble, always doing the wrong thing!

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

the real findorfin · 10-03-2002, 02:35 AM

As others have said, Aragorn was anything but a pain. Who else would have led the fellowship?

Legolas - Just because he is a prince it doesn't make him a natural leader. Some princes are right idiots (look at Britain's history for instance)I'm not saying he is but he really isn't leadership material. He hasn't had the training.

Gimli - Dear God no! He would have refused to enter Lothlorien and would have circled it and been caught my Orcs. If he got past that he would have probably taken them to Erebor or something. (OK I'm jokin) but Gimli has got too many prejudices.

Boromir - We all know what would have happened there.

Hobbit of some description - They would be able to.

Aragorn was the perfect guy next to Gandalf. He had great knowledge and wasn't proud (like Boromir).
Being heir has nothing to do with it. He was just best for the job!

the real findorfin · 10-03-2002, 02:36 AM

SORRY - MISTAKE ABOVE

Hobbits - WOULDN'T be able to!!!!

Well duh!!!

Bombadilo · 10-03-2002, 10:24 AM

I agree with the rest that say Aragorn is not bossy, just a leader. What kind of leader would he be if he could not get the others to follow him? It was also his duty as the heir to the throne of Gondor, carying with him the hopes of all Middle Earth. The times of the elves was dwindling, and men had to lead on into the begining of the comming age. That is why Legolas could not have led the fellowship, it was not his time. What really struck me as true was the comment about Gandalf and Aragorn being similar to Frodo and Sam. Although I had never thought of it that way before, they are similar, because without Aragorn or Sam, the quest would have never been accomplished. When Gandalf and Frodo are in their darkest moments of dispare, it is Aragorn and Sam who shine through.

elfling · 10-03-2002, 06:27 PM

I thought Aragorn was the best a man could be under any circumstances. Tirned Tinnu nails it! He was kind, caring and humble but could still lead and be strong. I felt he was the strongest character due to his burdens only Sam comes close with his love for Frodo and responsibility to him. But I must defend the little Took, He tried very hard and redeemed himself plenty for any wrong he may have caused.

Evisse the Blue · 10-04-2002, 02:12 AM

Interesting idea of Aragorn and Sam being similar, and the true ' heroes' of the story. (correct me if I got the wrong idea).
But, from my pov, the greatest dissimilarity between them is that Sam was completely selfless in helping his master, while for Aragorn, as I pointed above, the completion of the quest = kingship and marriage w. beautiful elf-princess.

Eldanuumea · 10-04-2002, 01:42 PM

I see Aragorn as a servant-leader. While he and the four hobbits are on their way to Rivendell, how many times do we read about Frodo waking up and seeing Aragorn awake, watching faithfully over them? The Ranger rarely slept throught the whole journey.

In "The Last Debate" (ROTK) Aragorn willingly offers himself as living "bait" for the trapping of Sauron.

After his exhausting battle at Pelennor, he does not seek rest but first rushed to the Houses of Healing where he ministers selflessly to Eowyn, Faramir, Merry, and many other wounded.

It is Elessar who kneels and encourages praise and credit for Frodo and Sam.

Whether in the book or in the film, Aragorn is a man of service, leadership, and great fidelity. He does have his moents of seeming arrogance - the sword hassle at Meduseld, his chastisement of Gimli over the Palantir - but I see these moments as the birth of his assuming the character of a king.

Nar · 10-04-2002, 01:52 PM

Well said, Eldanuumea, and welcome to the Downs, enjoy being dead! I would have to agree. I liked the 'bait' manuver very much, as it was bold, clever and selfless. Aragorn wasn't alone in making that sacrifice, but he could have refused to take Gandalf's counsel and order it.

Lush · 10-04-2002, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Aragorn is my favorite character of Tolkien's barring Beleg Strongbow.

Well, duh. We all like to read about these men. Because they don't exist in this wonderful state of perpetual chaos we refer to as real life. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Aragorn is a comfort, and an irritation to women, but for quite different reasons other than his supposed bossy demeanor. At least that's how it goes for me.

Ravenna · 10-04-2002, 03:51 PM

Aragorn bossy? Yes, at times, but then so were Gandalf, Theoden, Denethor, even Frodo at times. It's part of the job description that comes with being a leader.
If you are in charge of something, especially something as hugely important as Aragorn was, then you have to give orders and that, at times can make you seem bossy.

Aragorn has always been one of my favourite characters, and I always felt that if he was a bit bossy at times, it was always with good reason. Even the business over his sword at Edoras, well, the sword was very important to him, and don't forget that Gimli was very reluctant to surrnder his axe as well, in fact only doing so after Aragorn had capitulated.
Honour, nobility, seflessness and humility are at the essence of Aragorn, if at times he gets a bit short with people, well with the pressure he was under, I'm not surprised that it happened occasionally.
As to his personal agenda, well everyone had a general reason for dong what they did, getting rid of Sauron, but just because we see Aragorn's personal reasons in detail, does not mean that the others involved did not have them too, just that they are not openly mentioned in the story.

Tirned Tinnu · 10-04-2002, 11:09 PM

Oh, Lush! You said, "Because they don't exist in this wonderful state of perpetual chaos we refer to as real life."
I beg to differ! You must look carefully in order to find the diamonds in the rough. I have met in my life three or four men who have the will, the desire to do good, and the demeanor of heroes such as Aragorn and Beleg.
I have known such tenderness, truth and strength, oh! I cannot describe how much of a joy it is to have known those men and stayed for a while in their company. You would do well not to stereotype all men as being incapable of living up to legends. There are such men, perhaps you simply have not met one yet. And don't expect anyone to be perfect! Aragorn may have had faults, such as being a little short with people in times of trouble, and Beleg fell in love with a friend and a brother who dragged him down and killed him, in the end.
All of us have our faults. Sometimes looking past the little ones makes clear the person beyond them.
Hold heart! One day you will find legends in your midst, even in this day and age.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

mark12_30 · 10-05-2002, 04:36 AM

Tirned is right, Lush. I found one. And he might not look the way you expect him to, either.

Bêthberry · 10-05-2002, 05:07 AM

What Helen and Tirned said.

Anastasia · 10-05-2002, 12:27 PM

OK. I'm gonna be kicked by 29 people when I say this, but I agree with busybee in a way. I mean he was a real pain sometimes, but I think that its good that he wasnt all saintly as he was only human (well one-somethingth elf but that isnt the point), so he couldnt have been nice thru&thru. But he wasnt a complete jerk, so thats OK.

I know i've just basically said a version of other ppls posts, but this is my opinion.

10-05-2002, 01:47 PM

Arogorn a pain no way I think maybe a little bossy but he's got perfact right to be Deosn't he being heir to the throne and all. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

charly · 10-05-2002, 03:01 PM

I don´t think he´s exactly a pain but he DOES has a bit arrogant properties. I mean he didn´t even ask the Fellowship if it was ok he led them- he just did it! Of course he was the only guy to do it, but he just took it granted, with no discussion. And then, there´s a scene in Rohan, that seriously fed me up: Aragorn Lego&Gimli are asked to put their weapons down. And Aragorn says something like:

Quote:

I do not see why I, the heir of Isildur, should follow the wish of the King of the mark.

I mean, he´s not even a king yet and he totally blows himself up!!! But on the other hand, what would M-E be without him?? I think Aragorn was ok, sometimes I thought "Man, that guy ROX" and sometimes I thought "Geez, and he´s gonna be King?! Poor Gondor".

Note- but I did think he looked hot in the movie... don´t look a me like that!*blushesandhidesunderdesk*

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: charly ]

Nar · 10-05-2002, 08:31 PM

I second, third, whatever, Tirned, Mark 12_30 and Bethberry. I know more than a few men like that. Remember, Strider didn't look too good in Bree. Take heart, Lush, and cultivate your peripheral vision. Truly good men show it when you're not looking their way: it's how they treat the ones they're NOT trying to get into bed and DON'T need or want anything from that separates the men of worth from the others. And no, you don't have to compromise on attraction. Graduate level lust, as opposed to kiddie lust, goes this way: 'whatever you are, that's what I want.' The particulars of this man, THIS MAN RIGHT HERE are what melt your brain down-- it's an attraction that goes WAY beyond good cheekbones and melty eyes, though they don't hurt. There's your scenic man and then there's your soul-melting man-- finding one is all a matter of time, patience and excellent peripheral vision.

mark12_30 · 10-05-2002, 09:24 PM

Nar--

Well said. Now break that up into iambic quadrameter or pentameter, patch up the rhyming, give it a tune, and sing it.

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

--Helen

Nar · 10-06-2002, 09:15 AM

Thanks, Helen/ Mark 12_30!
Would that be 'Peripheral Vision' by Nar and the Noldor? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

mark12_30 · 10-06-2002, 09:26 AM

How do you say, "turn the bass up, set the tempo down and drive this thing" in elvish?

busybee · 10-06-2002, 12:13 PM

I am very glad that at least someone agrees with me that aragorn was some times bossy.eg:when they met the rohirrim they named him wingfoot and he didn't stand up for Legolas & Gimli ok legolas os an elf but what about Gimli?He reminded us he was human when he was a bit bigheaded which is a good thing thanks for all your replies! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: busybee ]

Elenna · 10-06-2002, 12:19 PM

I hear you, Lush. I guess the problem with men in this day and age as compared to Aragorn is this: Aragorn is an ideal. His faults are not faults, and his good points are inhumanly wonderful. Real human men do not have such inhuman perfection.

But sometimes that's better, don't you think?

10-01-2002, 11:44 AM	#1
busybee Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood, Lothlorien...dream...actually the middle of nowhere...Mumbai Posts: 89	Your opinion on Aragorn This might be only me but did anyone else find aragorn kind of a pain???I mean Yeah he was a king but not yet and Legolas was a Prince as well so what happened ther??I'm just saying that I thought Aragorn was kind off bossy and annoying sometimes. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ Pleeze does anyone know of a magical doorway or something to Middle Earth!?!?

10-01-2002, 12:28 PM	#2
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	I didn't. Aragorn was heir to the throne of the last remaining resistance to Mordor that had strength left. He was also the closest to Gandalf, the Fellowship's original leader. He was the most traveled of the group by far and had the most leader-like qualities. Legolas may have been a prince, but his father was still alive and well. Thranduil's kingdom of Mirkwood wasn't exactly a military powerhouse, though they were skilled. Perhaps you could elaborate. Could you list some examples of what you're talking about? What does Aragorn do specifically that irritates you? __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

10-01-2002, 12:37 PM	#3
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,916	Look at how close Aragorn became to the members of The Fellowship. This shows his real human qualities best of all in my opinion. Possibly exclude Boromir from that but he died and the 2 didn't spend as much time together. At Boromir's death I certainly felt that Aragorn was very sad at the lack of time they spent together. Plus, he was the hardiest of mortal men on Middle-Earth, and arguably one of the most skilled. All in all, reasons why I think Aragorn is immensely brilliant. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

10-01-2002, 12:45 PM	#4
Telwilyeil Greenleaf Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 15	I think Aragorn's character was meant ( in your words )to be " a pain". Thats just the way JRRT wanted him to turn out. Plus I agree that it is all in someones opinion. __________________ ~* Telwilyaiel*~

10-01-2002, 12:59 PM	#5
amyrlis Wight Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Helcaraxe Posts: 210	I believe that Aragorn played the role as the natural "leader" of the Fellowship due to the on-coming Age of Men. Legolas, as a current prince, may have "out-ranked" him, but the days of the elves were dwindling. If the quest succeeded, elves would fade, and consequently, men would rise up to take their place as the stewards of Middle-Earth. It would not have been right for an elf to lead the Fellowship. It had become Man's responsibility to see that Middle-Earth did not fall to Sauron. Aragorn may have seemed bossy, but in my opinion, he was feeling his way out as a leader, and he was thoughtful & just. It would not have been an easy task, deciding between fulfilling the quest or making for Gondor. __________________ "Pull the blinders from my eyes, let me see these endless skies And drown here where I stand in the beauty of the land."

10-01-2002, 02:23 PM	#6
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,056	When you view him with a "character analysis" you realize that the journey was hard for him in many ways. He dedicated himself to protect Frodo, and once the Fellowship was broken he lost that aspect. He had the weight of his true love on his shoulders. He must have been in a lot of pain knowing that it may be possible that he would never see Arwen again. He put all of the weight of protecting the human race on his shoulders. There are many, many others factors that add to who he is and why he does things. __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

10-01-2002, 04:16 PM	#7
Elenna A Ghostly Light Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: My private bubble of innocence Posts: 563	I almost fell off my chair when I read this. Aragorn? A pain? Sure, he may have come off as bossy, but he's a KING. If you had the fate of the world of men resting on your shoulders, a beautiful elf-maiden waiting for you to "get a real job", and a frolicking elf-prince to deal with, bossy might be the best way to be. I personally think he comes off more as "commanding". __________________ If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

10-01-2002, 04:22 PM	#8
Ransom Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Some randomn dorm in Pittsburgh Posts: 231	Quite honestly, being a prince or a king means BS in a war. Sure, you might have been born a bit better off than your average grunt, but that won't save you from that arrow or your army from an ambush. Aragorn was a leader. He lead the Fellowship after Gandalf's death. He adjusted his leadership style for a small group (him, Gimili, and Legolas) and for a large group (armies of Gondor-end of ROTK). He knew when to listen to his councilers (Great Debate) and when to act. Most of all, he knew his limits, and when to listen to advice. He knew that Gandalf was a far better leader than he was, and thus listened to him. Sure, he may seem a little bit bossy to those used to the democratic political system, but so would most officers in the military. Those officers are the ones can bring their command home after a war. [ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: Ransom ] [ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: Ransom ] __________________ "The blood of the dead mixes with the the flowing sand and grants more power to the killer."--Gaara of the Desert

10-01-2002, 04:26 PM	#9
Elenna A Ghostly Light Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: My private bubble of innocence Posts: 563	I disagree - being a king and having others know it would put you in an immediate leadership position. It's sort of like in the scene where Aragorn's title is sweeping the city. All of the citizens of Minas Tirith start feeling more hopeful because "The King has come again." It had nothing to do with his military capabilities - it was just the name. __________________ If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

10-01-2002, 04:53 PM	#10
Ransom Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Some randomn dorm in Pittsburgh Posts: 231	You are correct in saying that being the king does come with a certain aspect of leadership. By being royalty, one inherits the demand for leadership, not the skill of leadership itself. Aragorn was first a leader of men, and then a king, as evidenced by his refusal to openly declare his position until it was advantagous to do so. Thus, his first concern was probably not Gondor as a whole, but the men and troops he commanded and the battles that he fought. [ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: Ransom ] __________________ "The blood of the dead mixes with the the flowing sand and grants more power to the killer."--Gaara of the Desert

10-01-2002, 05:47 PM	#11
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Hmm, this is a good discusion. I never personally had a problem with Aragorn. Part of the reason why Legolas didn't take charge was simply because he did not want to. He did not want that responsiblility. Perhaps Aragorn did not want to either but somebody had to. Another thing is that Aragorn was The best of his race while Legolas was the 2nd best of his race. Even though it could be debated that Elves are more powerful then men, Legolas wasn't the top of his race. Aragorn, besides knowing the lands better, also knew more about the ring and its past, also about the politics of other peoples. I think that he was far better at guessing what the other person was thinking or planning then either Legolas or Gimli or Boromir. Aragorn had a lot on his plate, as has been said before. Arwen, Gondor, Boromir, Men, Elrond, Gandalf, all the hobbits... If he is a little testy every once and awhile, GIVE HIM A BREAK! If I were him, I would have cracked a long time before LOTR started. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

10-02-2002, 08:57 AM	#13
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	Aragorn is as he is; sometimes Strider, sometimes Elessar. He appears to be above the opinions of a humble hobbit like myself.

10-02-2002, 11:39 AM	#14
TolkienGurl Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 637	Aragorn was not "bossy"! He knew that it was his responsibility as heir to the throne of Gondor to take charge and lead and that's what he did. 'Aragorn, Aragorn, he's our man, if he can't do it no one can!' or, more accurate, '...if he won't do it no one will!' __________________ Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall and there is no escape. -Frodo My Livejournal

10-02-2002, 03:35 PM	#15
Ruthwen Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: England Posts: 40	Well, I partly agree and partly disagree. I think that in The Two Towers when he gets huffy (for want of a better word) over his sword, he acts a bit bigheaded. But I think in general, he's just an excellent leader. He can give orders without alienating himself from those he commands. __________________ "Her name was Nenlauriel, but they called her Rûthwen, because her anger seemed ever constant and ever flowing from her grey eyes."

10-02-2002, 04:01 PM	#16
Gorothlammothiel Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sitting in front of my preferred world.... Posts: 254	I do not believe that Aragorn is or was bossy, nor do I think he is a pain. He is a great character of strength, skill, knowledge and understanding. A little reserved he may be but I believe there was point to this. His individuality, to me, symbolises mans sturggle in our own world to do what is right. To do the responsible thing and try to please everyone. A not-so-easy task. He forms relationships with each member of the fellowship that are entirely individual and different, valuing each of them. He felt he was the one to take charge of the fellowship after Gandalf because not only was he well-travlled and knowledgable, but also because the friendships he made allowed him to do so. While Leoglas was a prince, he was not as knowlegable as Aragorn and didn't have the same views on others as Aragorn did. Legolas, at first, would not trust dwarves, just as the dwarves would not trust the elves. Aragorn did, but was also weary, even of his own race with Boromir. Aragorn had a level head, a sense of right and wrong and most of the other leadership qualities. And for those reasons, I think he was justified in what he did, to help all ME and take his place as King.

10-02-2002, 04:21 PM	#17
Elven-Archer Guest Posts: n/a	I think he had to take up a leader role after Gandalf fell to the Balrog. Otherwise the fellowship would have fallen apart.

10-02-2002, 04:42 PM	#18
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 392	To my mind Aragorn was just the perfect man to do what he was doing. He had the right (by birth) to lead men and elves, being a descendant of a glorious house. He got necessary training and knowledge in Rivendell and during his wonderings and military campaigns. And he’s got a definite aim, which can’t be diminished by having some personal motivation. He just knows what to do, how to do it and that there’s no-one around to do it better. Note how he always appears at the time he is most needed – at Bree, leading the fleet by Anduin, in Minas Tirith to heal Faramir and Eowyn. Just imho I don't see anyone claiming Aragorn's responsibility. Gandalf is preoccupied with too many matters at once, and for part of the time outof action. As for Gimli and Legolas, I somehow see them as just observes for their races, watching that everything is done right. They allow themselves to be led, perhaps not having a motivation as strong as Aragorn’s. (Sorry if I Have misinterpreted things) However strange it may seem, if I had to compare Aragorn and any other character, my choice would be Sam. They share that determination to do all that is in their power (and above it) and finding strength for it. The teams Gandalf&Aragorn and Frodo&Sam have something in common. Gandalf has his restrictions; Frodo’s Burden is too heavy for him. But for Aragorn and Sam the Task could have never been completed. And Sam is quite a pain in the neck at times, hehe. __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

10-02-2002, 04:50 PM	#19
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	I believe that the opinion stated in the original question of this thread was due to viewing only the movie - and I will not go into that in this thread. I will say as all the rest have done: Perhaps you have no idea the pressures upon this gentle man! Did you not see that he forsook sleep and comfort for weeks on end, dragging himself to the limits of human exaustion? He was never anything but humble and civil with the Hobbits until he arrived at Minas Tirith, and even then he bandied with them on their own level. Aragorn is my favorite character of Tolkien's barring Beleg Strongbow. I have never heard of a male character written with such eloquence of spreech, such a light hand, and such a noble heart. I have nothing but admiration for the character. I don't see how anyone could speak of him as a pain. Rather, I think of Peregrin Toook as a pain! Darn hobbit, always in trouble, always doing the wrong thing! [ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ] __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

10-03-2002, 02:35 AM	#20
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	As others have said, Aragorn was anything but a pain. Who else would have led the fellowship? Legolas - Just because he is a prince it doesn't make him a natural leader. Some princes are right idiots (look at Britain's history for instance)I'm not saying he is but he really isn't leadership material. He hasn't had the training. Gimli - Dear God no! He would have refused to enter Lothlorien and would have circled it and been caught my Orcs. If he got past that he would have probably taken them to Erebor or something. (OK I'm jokin) but Gimli has got too many prejudices. Boromir - We all know what would have happened there. Hobbit of some description - They would be able to. Aragorn was the perfect guy next to Gandalf. He had great knowledge and wasn't proud (like Boromir). Being heir has nothing to do with it. He was just best for the job! __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

10-03-2002, 02:36 AM	#21
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	SORRY - MISTAKE ABOVE Hobbits - WOULDN'T be able to!!!! Well duh!!! __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

10-03-2002, 10:24 AM	#22
Bombadilo Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 15	I agree with the rest that say Aragorn is not bossy, just a leader. What kind of leader would he be if he could not get the others to follow him? It was also his duty as the heir to the throne of Gondor, carying with him the hopes of all Middle Earth. The times of the elves was dwindling, and men had to lead on into the begining of the comming age. That is why Legolas could not have led the fellowship, it was not his time. What really struck me as true was the comment about Gandalf and Aragorn being similar to Frodo and Sam. Although I had never thought of it that way before, they are similar, because without Aragorn or Sam, the quest would have never been accomplished. When Gandalf and Frodo are in their darkest moments of dispare, it is Aragorn and Sam who shine through.

10-03-2002, 06:27 PM	#23
elfling Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: asheville,nc Posts: 86	I thought Aragorn was the best a man could be under any circumstances. Tirned Tinnu nails it! He was kind, caring and humble but could still lead and be strong. I felt he was the strongest character due to his burdens only Sam comes close with his love for Frodo and responsibility to him. But I must defend the little Took, He tried very hard and redeemed himself plenty for any wrong he may have caused. __________________ And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the morning and the night...All shall love me and despair!

10-04-2002, 02:12 AM	#24
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,708	Interesting idea of Aragorn and Sam being similar, and the true ' heroes' of the story. (correct me if I got the wrong idea). But, from my pov, the greatest dissimilarity between them is that Sam was completely selfless in helping his master, while for Aragorn, as I pointed above, the completion of the quest = kingship and marriage w. beautiful elf-princess. __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

10-04-2002, 01:42 PM	#25
Eldanuumea Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 11	I see Aragorn as a servant-leader. While he and the four hobbits are on their way to Rivendell, how many times do we read about Frodo waking up and seeing Aragorn awake, watching faithfully over them? The Ranger rarely slept throught the whole journey. In "The Last Debate" (ROTK) Aragorn willingly offers himself as living "bait" for the trapping of Sauron. After his exhausting battle at Pelennor, he does not seek rest but first rushed to the Houses of Healing where he ministers selflessly to Eowyn, Faramir, Merry, and many other wounded. It is Elessar who kneels and encourages praise and credit for Frodo and Sam. Whether in the book or in the film, Aragorn is a man of service, leadership, and great fidelity. He does have his moents of seeming arrogance - the sword hassle at Meduseld, his chastisement of Gimli over the Palantir - but I see these moments as the birth of his assuming the character of a king. __________________ "There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world." - Gandalf the Grey

10-04-2002, 01:52 PM	#26
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	Well said, Eldanuumea, and welcome to the Downs, enjoy being dead! I would have to agree. I liked the 'bait' manuver very much, as it was bold, clever and selfless. Aragorn wasn't alone in making that sacrifice, but he could have refused to take Gandalf's counsel and order it.

10-04-2002, 03:51 PM	#28
Ravenna Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: witney, oxfordshire Posts: 70	Aragorn bossy? Yes, at times, but then so were Gandalf, Theoden, Denethor, even Frodo at times. It's part of the job description that comes with being a leader. If you are in charge of something, especially something as hugely important as Aragorn was, then you have to give orders and that, at times can make you seem bossy. Aragorn has always been one of my favourite characters, and I always felt that if he was a bit bossy at times, it was always with good reason. Even the business over his sword at Edoras, well, the sword was very important to him, and don't forget that Gimli was very reluctant to surrnder his axe as well, in fact only doing so after Aragorn had capitulated. Honour, nobility, seflessness and humility are at the essence of Aragorn, if at times he gets a bit short with people, well with the pressure he was under, I'm not surprised that it happened occasionally. As to his personal agenda, well everyone had a general reason for dong what they did, getting rid of Sauron, but just because we see Aragorn's personal reasons in detail, does not mean that the others involved did not have them too, just that they are not openly mentioned in the story.

10-04-2002, 11:09 PM	#29
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	Oh, Lush! You said, "Because they don't exist in this wonderful state of perpetual chaos we refer to as real life." I beg to differ! You must look carefully in order to find the diamonds in the rough. I have met in my life three or four men who have the will, the desire to do good, and the demeanor of heroes such as Aragorn and Beleg. I have known such tenderness, truth and strength, oh! I cannot describe how much of a joy it is to have known those men and stayed for a while in their company. You would do well not to stereotype all men as being incapable of living up to legends. There are such men, perhaps you simply have not met one yet. And don't expect anyone to be perfect! Aragorn may have had faults, such as being a little short with people in times of trouble, and Beleg fell in love with a friend and a brother who dragged him down and killed him, in the end. All of us have our faults. Sometimes looking past the little ones makes clear the person beyond them. Hold heart! One day you will find legends in your midst, even in this day and age. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

10-05-2002, 04:36 AM	#30
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,367	Tirned is right, Lush. I found one. And he might not look the way you expect him to, either. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

10-05-2002, 05:07 AM	#31
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,046	What Helen and Tirned said. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

10-05-2002, 12:27 PM	#32
Anastasia Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: London Posts: 91	OK. I'm gonna be kicked by 29 people when I say this, but I agree with busybee in a way. I mean he was a real pain sometimes, but I think that its good that he wasnt all saintly as he was only human (well one-somethingth elf but that isnt the point), so he couldnt have been nice thru&thru. But he wasnt a complete jerk, so thats OK. I know i've just basically said a version of other ppls posts, but this is my opinion. __________________ Aw, you've done grand, laddie! Now you know what you have to do: Burn the house down. Burn 'em all! ~The Leprechaun from The Simpsons.

10-05-2002, 01:47 PM	#33
Thomas Baggins Guest Posts: n/a	Arogorn a pain no way I think maybe a little bossy but he's got perfact right to be Deosn't he being heir to the throne and all. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

10-05-2002, 08:31 PM	#35
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	I second, third, whatever, Tirned, Mark 12_30 and Bethberry. I know more than a few men like that. Remember, Strider didn't look too good in Bree. Take heart, Lush, and cultivate your peripheral vision. Truly good men show it when you're not looking their way: it's how they treat the ones they're NOT trying to get into bed and DON'T need or want anything from that separates the men of worth from the others. And no, you don't have to compromise on attraction. Graduate level lust, as opposed to kiddie lust, goes this way: 'whatever you are, that's what I want.' The particulars of this man, THIS MAN RIGHT HERE are what melt your brain down-- it's an attraction that goes WAY beyond good cheekbones and melty eyes, though they don't hurt. There's your scenic man and then there's your soul-melting man-- finding one is all a matter of time, patience and excellent peripheral vision.

10-05-2002, 09:24 PM	#36
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,367	Nar-- Well said. Now break that up into iambic quadrameter or pentameter, patch up the rhyming, give it a tune, and sing it. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] --Helen __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

10-06-2002, 09:15 AM	#37
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	Thanks, Helen/ Mark 12_30! Would that be 'Peripheral Vision' by Nar and the Noldor? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

10-06-2002, 09:26 AM	#38
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,367	How do you say, "turn the bass up, set the tempo down and drive this thing" in elvish? __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.