Tolkien & Lewis

[Merendis]

I know that Lewis and Tolkien were good friends and also that Tolkien looked over and criticized (constructive of course) Lewis's drafts, but did Lewis do the same for Tolkien? I know he previously read his works:
"Those who would like to learn further about Numinor and the True West must (alas!) await the publication of much that still exists only in the MSS. of my friend, Professor J. R. R. Tolkien"
~C.S. Lewis Magdalen College, Oxford
Christmas Eve, 1943

But is there evidence these two helped each other out, swapped books, commented and swapped back? Just curious!

Also, it seem Lewis had a very high opinion of his friend, Dr. Ransom is a wonderful character!

[Bruce MacCulloch]

Lewis was one of the chief editors and commenters for much of Tolkien's writing. His suggestions were the cause for many of the changes in The Lay of the Children of Húrin.

[Iaragarwen]

You know, I don't know if Tolkien reviewd Lewis' works, but i do know that they and some other authors used to gather for tea every day to discuss their books. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Merendis]

in the back of my copy of <u>Out of the Silent Planet</u> there is Tolkien's commentary, I find it quite interesting

[littlemanpoet]

I suspect that there must be some really old discussion thread regarding the Inklings in the history of the Barrowdoens website, but have not checked it out for myself. I read Tolkien's and Lewis' biographies. Humphrey Carpenter wrote Tolkien's. It's a good read. You learn a lot. Tolkien heard all of Lewis' space trilogy (Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, That Hideous Strength) in the Inklings meetings.

By the way they did NOT drink tea. They held their meetings either in Lewis' rooms at Oxford or at the Eagle and Child tavern, nicknamed the Bird and Baby, where the quaffed many a good ale while sharing their works.

Lewis did indeed encourage Tolkien throughout the entire period of the LOTR drafts, but commented that Tolkien was as hard to influence as a bandersnatch, whatever that is.

Their friendship cooled after World War 2, especially when Lewis wrote his Narnia Chronicles which Tolkien thought were ill-conceived and did injustice to his sources. They were not speaking to each other (not that they were unfriends) during roughly the last decade of Lewis' life.

Hope that helps.

[Voronwe]

Lewis also gave an extensive commentry on the first part of Tolkien's epic poem, the Lay of Leithian. It was published along with the poem, which tragically was unfinished when Tolkien died.

[Arie]

yes tis' true what you say they did help out each other-Tolkien in fact was inspired by Lewis himself! Tolkien does the same for Lewis aswell-I remember the incidinent when Tolkien read The Chronicles of Narnia(Lewis' work) and thought it very childish of him to be writing children's books!...In any case both were great friends and that also concludes why both are born-again christians! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] mailto:earendel1@lycos.comearendel1@lycos.com</A>

[Nevfeniel]

Their friendship cooled after World War 2, especially when Lewis wrote his Narnia Chronicles which Tolkien thought were ill-conceived and did injustice to his sources.

That's so sad!
[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Nevfeniel ]

[Rosa Underhill]

That is very tragic but I'm willing to bet that they're closer than they ever were now that they've gone Home. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] (I, for the most part, agree with Tolkien's opinion of the Narnia books, though I did like "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe" and "The Magician's Nephew".)

I love reading Lewis' simple dedication to his friend at the begining of The Screwtape Letters: "To J.R.R. Tolkien". [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Merendis]

i don't think it was wrong for Lewis to write the Chronicles of Narnia, there need to be some fun books for children out there.

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Merendis ]

[Arie]

I personally liked the Chronicles of Narnia (all seven books) but Tolkien reconsidered critisizing Lewis' books mailto:earendel1@lycos.comearendel1@lycos.com</A>

[Frodo Baggins]

Closer than ever now that they have gone Home. my thoughts exactly Rosa!!! Oh yeah!! tha dedication at the beginning of "The Screwtape Letters" I read somwhere that it was Tolkien that led Lewis to Christianity. Is true?? If true, cool!

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: Frodo Baggins ]

[littlemanpoet]

I imagine Tolkien wincing at such a term as born-again-Christian. Lewis, too, for that matter. It is true, however, that in the early 30s "Tollers" and "Jack" were walking one late night in the Oxford environs and J was saying that the Christian gospels are all myth, after all; T agreed then added that the Christian gospels are the only true myth. That convinced Lewis of theism at least, and after a little more time, of Christianity.

I don't think that Tolkien considered the Narnia Chronicles "wrong", so much as written without adequate respect for mythic sources. The whole thing does not have the inner consistency of reality; all kinds of borrowings were lumped together will-he-nil-he which Tolkien believed did a disservice to the myths themselves.

[Nufaciel]

There are a few letters that Tolkien wrote to Lewis, and to others about Lewis in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien that you might find interesting. I love reading Tolkien's letters. It's amazing what you can learn about a person by the letters that he writes.

[Kalessin]

Agree Littleman - we have to be careful about applying modern (and perhaps American) conceptions to the particularly English (and academic) culture in which Tolkien and Lewis interacted. Thanks also for your very interesting contextual notes ... I don't know the answer myself, but is it really the case that their friendship cooled 'purely' because of Tolkien's feelings about The Narnia Chronicles? This suggests either a certain rivalry of some kind, or some other subtext. What do you think?

Peace [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

The way I understand it, Tolkien disliked the Chronicles for basically two main reasons. First, Tolkien himself says, "I cordially dislike allegory", something the Narnia tales undoubtedly are. Second, Tolkien was annoyed with the way Lewis mixed Greek and Roman and Byzantine elements together in forming his mythological realm of Narnia, while Tolkien's Arda (and Middle-earth) is unified in its Norse origins. And I agree that both men would wince at the term "born again" (that being part of contemporary American evangelical jargon), since Lewis was Anglican and Tolkien Catholic.

Oh, by the way, hello everyone. I'm new and looking forward to stimulating conversation on this board.

Eru's Child

"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made." - The Ainulindale

[Nufaciel]

Welcome to the boards, Child of Eru! I am looking forward to hearing from you again.

[Kalessin]

Welcome, Child of Eru [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Yes, I have seen elsewhere references to Tolkien's disapproval of Lewis' eclecticism, and the point that Tolkien's Catholicism is considerably different to Lewis' adopted Anglicanism. Perhaps Tolkien also disapproved of Lewis marrying a divorcee, as has been suggested.

It's been said they were not "unfriends" despite this, which is quite a profound description. I guess we all know people we no longer associate with, yet who are not 'unfriends' [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Child of Eru, I think the suggestion that Tolkien's cosmology was of a unified Norse origin may be a little contentious. His intention was to create a specifically English mythology (he disapproved of Malory's Arthur because of its French character AND because of its explicit association with Christianity) and (arguably) to re-invigorate fairy-tale.

Whilst his influences and linguistic interests may well have been Scandinavian, I am not convinced that he was simply re-inventing Norse mythos. You will also encounter many on these boards who argue strongly that Tolkien was writing Christian allegory, or that the Biblical influence was at least as strong (and certainly more 'important', in all senses of the word) as any other. The excellent - and long - Trilogy and Bible thread is really worth a read, there is plenty of stimulating debate there from all sides!

Again, welcome [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[littlemanpoet]

Yes, there is more to the cooling friendship than a literary rivalry. It has been hinted that Tolkien disapproved of Lewis marrying a divorce. That also does not sufficiently explain the situation.

Here is some more information to lend insight. Lewis was a "grouper". He liked to get men together to quaff good ale and discuss literature, philology, and whatever else came up as interesting discussion. To use a Jungian term (Lewis and Tolkien are on record as having an appreciation for Jung), Lewis was an extravert, and had a naturally loud voice. With this loud voice Lewis was known to decry womanhood as the weaker sex with all its foibles, and to revel in the company of men to do man-like things. By contrast, Tolkien was an introvert (by the way that does not mean that he didn't like people, but that he 'charged his batteries' by being away from people or in a circle of close friends). And Tolkien was very happily married. Thus, Lewis was the driving force behind the Inklings in the first place. When he married Joy Davidman, his entire focus shifted away from his men friends to his new wife. The sharp change in Lewis' attitude toward women was not lost on Tolkien. And suddenly the driving force of the Inklings had decided to 'motor another engine'.

My guess is that while Tolkien understood what had happened, he was still hurt by the sudden disappearance of all the friendly and erudite attention Lewis had poured on him.

The above also is not really convincingly (to me) enough to explain the cooling. Lewis also left Oxford to teach at Cambridge. And his faith was different enough from Tolkien's as to add to this growing list of differences. Also, I don't think Tolkien was really at all comfortable with Lewis' outpouring of non-fictional defense of Christianity - the abolition of man, the problem of pain, mere christianity, etc.

This next is mere speculation: by the 50s, Lewis was a popular man in England, having read his books over the radio, whereas Tolkien was still struggling financially and LotR had not yet taken off.

All these differences added up to a cooled friendship, but I don't think they held each other in any less regard for all that - they simply didn't have that much to talk about anymore.

[Halfir]

Perhaps Tolkien re-read the Narnia Chronicles and realized how truly awful they are!

[Belin]

In the words of Samuel Taylor Coleridge:

Alas! They had been friends in youth;
But whispering tongues can poison truth;
And constancy lives in realms above;
And life is thorny; and youth is vain;
And to be wroth with one we love
Doth work like madness in the brain.
And thus it chanced, as I divine,
With Roland and Sir Leoline.
Each spake words of high disdain
And insult to his heart’s best brother:
They parted—ne’er to meet again!
But never either found another
To free the hollow heart from paining—
They stood aloof, the scars remaining,
Like cliffs which had been rent asunder;
A dreary sea now flows between;--
But neither heat, nor frost, nor thunder,
Shall wholly do away, I ween,
The marks of that which once hath been.

[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Not that that explains anything really, but it’s such a brilliant description of it. In any case, it brings up another interesting point; literary friendships often go this way. Coleridge and Wordsworth had a falling-out as well, as did Fitzgerald and Hemingway. Perhaps it’s because the friendship is too much based on what they do have in common and their ability to give each other ideas and share intellectually? Over the course of intellectual development, it seems to me that people typically change much more radically than they do emotionally, or maybe it’s just that emotional development more easily accommodates itself to change, if the essential base of mutual caring remains unchanged.

Anyway, the intellectual distancing may be inevitable..... Keep in mind that Coleridge wrote these words BEFORE his fight with Wordsworth.

Wow... this thread is really getting me down.

--Belin Ibaimendi


(PS. By the way, are my constant outside literary references getting annoying to anybody? I hope not... I can try to stop if they are. I've actually just realized how often I do this.... I’m really not trying to be pretentious; connection is just the way my mind works.)

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

Tolkein just didn't like the allegory involved in Lewis' works. I don't think that because they were written for children had anything to do with it. The Hobbit was also written for children and the first few chapters of FotR is also considerably less sophisticated.

[Gilthalion]

Really some great speculation here, much of it seems to me to be near the mark! (I say that because much of it seems to match my own speculations! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )

Perhaps the following quote will shed a little more light on C.S. Lewis's spiritual experience. It does not speak directly to Tolkien's involvement.

From Show Me God by Fred Heerin:

It was....in 1929 that C.S. Lewis, the renowned Oxford professor, had his atheism greatly shaken while listening to an atheist friend acknowledge evidence that pointed to the historicity of the gospel accounts. "It almost looks as if it really happened once," his friend told him. Through a combination of events that year, Lewis was "converted" --not to Christianity, but to belief in a Supreme Being. After narrowing his choices to Hinduisim and Christianity, he began using his knowledge of languages and literature to make a study of the Bible, beginning with a daily reading of John's gospel in the original Greek. Lewis was amazed, later writing: "I have been reading poems, romances, vision-literature, legends, myths all my life. I know what they are like. I know that not one of them is like this."

At the same time that Einstein was peering through Hubble's telescope and formally admitting the implications of an expanding universe, Lewis was admitting the implications of a gospel documents that had all the marks of authenticity. But Lewis went a step further than Einstein, passing from belief in a Superintellect to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, describing the experience, not as an emotional one, but saying, "It was more like when a man, after long sleep, still lying motionless in bed, becomes aware that he is now awake."

It is in the third chapter of John that Jesus proclaimed, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

I have never found any believer, whether Roman Catholic, or Protestant who "winced" at the term "born again." I would not dispute that there are many hypocritical church members who get rather upset at this single central-most truth of Christianity. But I have difficulty believing that devout Christians of Tolkien's or Lewis's character would "wince" at Billy Graham doing their Lord's precise and unambiguous bidding.

I could as easily imagine Faramir or Aragorn wincing at the rustic customs of true-hearted hobbits on the quest they shared. Perhaps they could not help but smile at Sam's sayings, or laugh at Pippin's foolishness. But did they hold the hobbits in the contempt implied by "wincing" at their purest faith? Sounds more like something Denethor might do and that Saruman would do.

Perhaps I do them too much credit, but I think our favorite Oxford dons (at least in this thread!) had nobler hearts than that. Especially if they were themselves, "born again." [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

For what it is worth, though I perhaps identify more closely with Lewis on a personal level, I think Tolkien's criticisms were right on the mark. Aside from the Screwtape Letters, I do not care for his stories. His Narnia tales were a struggle for me to read, and his science fiction was interesting, but gloomy and strange. Some unfinished short stories were even worse! I think he tried too hard in his tales to make of all of them a conscious Christian allegory. (But that was his purpose, so I can't complain, can I? Who has done a better job of that?) But Lewis's best works, in my opinion, were his nonfiction pieces.

A lot of Tolkien's loyalty to the Catholic church is deemed due to his mother's mistreatment by folk who despised Catholicism. Lewis's affiliation with the Anglicans may well have played some part in the cooling of their friendship, in that land of so much bitter history between folk professing divergent faiths.

I also agree that Lewis's time and interests becoming occupied by his success and his marriage would no doubt result in their bond of friendship growing, if not weaker, then at least thinner.

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Gilthalion ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Lewis's afiliation with theAnglicansmay well have played some part in the cooling of their friendship, in that land of so much bitter histor between folk professing divergent faiths.

Gilthalian--

I think this point is critical, and, as Americans,we lose sight of it easily. Our own history has instances of prejudice and discrimination, but not in the same way as Great Britain. If you look at the history of England from the age of Henry VIII on, one of the critical questions is to what extent Catholics will be accepted as being true and loyal English. The priest holes in Catholic households, questions about suffrage and representation in parliament--angry feelings like these don't go away immediately. They last a long time. And they influence people's relationships. Tolkien's feelings about what happened to his mother in being cut off financially and personally from her family because of her Catholocism were with him his whole life.


And don't forget Ireland. You have to remember that Lewis was raised as an Ulster Protestant. Lewis himself admitted that he had been raised as a youth to mistrust Catholics. Lewis left his faith as a child, but when he came back to it, it was to a form of Protestantism similar to that which he'd had as a youth. Catholic/Protestant tensions were and still are a source of tension in Northern Ireland.

All this history had an impact. I'm not saing they disliked each other because of their religious differences, but there was an underlying layer of suspicion in both men which could lead to misunderstanding. Tolkien was always disappointed that, after their talks, Lewis had not gone one step further and entered the Catholic Church. He felt that Lewis had gone too far and too fast, in shifting from a non-believer to a Christian apologist. And Lewis must have felt some discomfort in revealing to Tolkien that he was marrying a divorcee, since Tolkien had to find out the information from the newspapers. Saddest of all--Tolkien declined all invitations to write Lewis's obituary or to submit an item to the memorial collection of essays. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Gilthalion]

Saddest of all--Tolkien declined all invitations to write Lewis's obituary or to submit an item to the memorial collection of essays. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

Sharon, that is indeed sad. Even heroes have their warts, I suppose. I would like to believe that it was more from personal sadness and inability at the time than from personal animosity lingering beyond death that Tolkien declined these honors. How sad if Tolkien could not rise above his differences with Lewis, even after his friend's death.

It says something about the impression of the people who knew them that Tolkien was offered these honors. Perhaps he felt himself unworthy to accept them. I wish we knew more.

[Child of the 7th Age]

It says something about the impression of the people who knew them that Tolkien was offered these honors. Perhaps he felt himself unworthy to accept them. I wish we knew more.

Gilthalion (I'll get the spelling right one of these times!)--

Yes, I'd very much like more information on this. The fact comes from Michael White's biography of JRRT, and no other explanation is offered. If you ever see anything else, let me know.

The only thing I've ever seen in Tolkien's own words was a letter to his son Michael in late 1963 where he says: "We were separated first by the sudden apparition of Charles Williams....and then by his (Lewis's) marriage." I do know that Lewis did not feel comfortable with Williams and disapporived of his interest in the occult.
sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[littlemanpoet]

To quote from Humphrey Carpenter's authorized biography of Tolkien:

In these later years [Tolkien] still saw a little of Lewis, making occasional visits to the 'Bird and Baby' and to the Kilns, Lewis's house on the other side of Headington; and he and Lewis might conceivably have preserved something of their old friendship had not Tolkien been puzzled and even angered by Lewis's marriage to Joy Davidman, which lasted form 1957 until her death in 1960. Some of his feelings may be explained by the fact that she had been divorced from her first husband before she married Lewis, some by resentment of Lewis's expectation that his friends should pay court to his new wife - whereas in the thirties Lewis, very much the bachelor, had liked to ignore the fact that his friends had wives to go home to. But there was more to it than that. It was almost as if Tolkien felt betrayed by the marriage, resented the intrusion of a woman into his friendship with Lewis - just as Edith had resented Lewis's intrusion into her marriage. Ironically it was Edith who became friends with Joy Davidman.

And from A.N. Wilson's biography of C.S. Lewis:

We do not know which passage [from Lewis's English Literature in the Sixteenth Century Excluding Drama ] particularly annoyed Tolkien...but it could have been any of the moments where Lewis reflects upon the religion of the period - his provocative use of the word 'papist' for 'Roman Catholic', his praise of Calvin, his claim that Tyndale was superior to Thomas More as a stylist, or perhaps even his enthusiasm for Spenser, in whose work Tolkien, when in the mood, was capable of nosing out 'anti-Catholic mythology'.

Granted, Wilson is far more apt toward speculation than Carpenter, but with due care for distinguishing authorial opinion from fact, it is clear enough that Tolkien and Lewis had a spate of latent issues that cooled their friendship.

[Gilthalion]

Thanks for the additional information!

How unfortunate that this celebrated friendship cooled in this way. How much sadder that it was in part the schism of faith that lay behind much of the frost.

"Papist" is a lable loaded with the connotations of historic animosity. While I have my own disagreements with Catholic doctrine and practice, I hope never to discuss those differences in an offensive manner. How often is it the case that men make so much of their differences of belief that they consider these more important than the greatest commandments, to love God with all our being and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

It seems that one man had a life-long habit of somewhat self-centered arrogance, and the other found it hard to forgive, or at least to endure.

Pride. It is something that despite such differences, they were not "unfriends."

[Evisse the Blue]

I can understand Tolkien in his dislike for Charles Williams and his disapproval of CS Lewis' 'religious style', which he chose to express in many ways, including in the Narnia Chronicles, which I have not finished because I did not like it. Even if I were a great fan of the Narnia Chronicles and a devout Protestant (I'm actually Christian Orthodox), I would still understand the divergence of opinions: one may have a different literary taste or feel inclination towards a particular kind of religion, given also the family history, etc.

But - what I find quite amazing in terms of intolerance and narrow-mindness is the fact that Tolkien rejected CS Lewis on account of his marrying an American divorcee. His refusal - and indeed, the other Inklings' refusal to accept Joyce, (not only as Lewis' wife/lover, but as an intelligent woman and a worthy partner of discussion) seems to me, well, snobbish (not to say misogynic). I guess some of you will argue I cannot understand about the British intellectual class of that time. This, at least to me, holds little water as an excuse.

Perhaps I am a little biased. I recently read 'A Grief Observed' By Lewis and was moved at his capacity to introspect, with cutting-edge clarity of mind, his own feelings, without falling into the embarassing realm of self-pity. It has been argued that Tolkien, an introvert, somewhat disproved of his friend's extrovert nature and of how he felt so comfortable 'flaunting' his religious beliefs and feelings. That's why I sort of wonder what would have happened if Tolkien would have died before Lewis? Would Lewis have accepted to honour his old friend, in the way that Tolkien didn't? I think he would have.

If anyone knows more than I do on the subject, please add up.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I do think there are two sides of this sad situation. For example, Tolkien found out that Lewis had married by reading the notice in the newspaper. Lewis never told him personally, presumably because he knew that JRRT would disapprove. Earlier JRRT had had Joy to his house, and she had actually gotten on quite well with Edith.

Given these facts, I would find the deliberate secrecy by Lewis hard to accept. So I believe that hurt feelings contributed to this split between the men, as well as Tolkien's discomfort with Lewis marrying a divorced woman.

Regarding the whole issue of women and how they were accepted by the Inklings.... Ironically, Lewis himself was not always open to women before he met his wife. In fact, his writings have been criticized by many (and I admit to feeling this way) as being more ambivalent about women than those of Tolkien. (There is no equivalent to Luthien, for example.)

It was only in Till We Have Faces that Lewis was able to go beyond his more limited views and produce a work that looked at female characters in a truly perceptive and sympathetic way. (This is a marvelous book, BTW.) Not surprisingly, this work was written only after Lewis' marriage. I do think his new wife helped Lewis to break through some of his earlier stereotypes.

The Inklings' record as a whole was not great on women. Sayers met with the group for a time, but never felt completely welcome either by Lewis or anyone else. Was this the result of gender or personality differences? Perhaps a little of both.

But we do have to remember that Lewis' wife was not an academic -- she was a journalist, I believe. With the exception of Williams who was employed by a publisher, most of the Inklings were academics. And they may have felt some ambivalence about having a non-academic they did not know well brought into the group. None of this "excuses" their behavior, but it does suggest the situation was more complicated than a simple case of rights and wrongs.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:40 AM January 04, 2004: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]