Spanish is Dark Speech??

[Samwise]

I finally got myself to finish TTT! Took me forever--I had such a HARD TIME making myself go through---that certain part (I'm sure a lot of you know what I'm talking about!!) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, at the part when the Orcs show up more than one of them (or one of them more than once) uses the term "Hola!"

HUH??? I work at a preschool with many spanish speaking kids and a couple of teachers to boot, and none of them look like Orcs! For that matter, I didn't see any Orcs in my Spanish I or II classes in High School. WHERE in Middle Earth did this phrase come from? Or was it MEANT to be a joke??? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[ August 22, 2003: Message edited by: Samwise ]

[Lord of Angmar]

Are you sure the orc wasn't addressing another orc by a name or nickname? Seems very unlikely that there were many orcs of a race and dialect that had yet to be created.

[Samwise]

Mm...no. The only names (Orc-wise) that I see mentioned are Shagrat and Gorbag (as far as the ones actually there).

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

I have actually wondered about this myself. I think that it was meant purely as an exclamation, and not with the same meaning as the Spanish (obviously...). It is probably pronounced as it is written, rather than having a silent "h". So I suppose the similarity was unintentional, although doubtless Tolkien knew the Spanish meaning. Hmmm.....

[Samwise]

Looking at the section of the story again, I wonder if it couldn't have been a name/nickname. Kind of difficult to tell in the way it was used, but it still strikes me odd. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Arwen Melian]

It's not Spanish because the "ho" and the "la" are seperate. Yes, I often wondered if it was, but it can't be. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lord of Angmar]

The orcs had many strange exclamations. Another one would be "Garn."

[Arwen Melian]

Thats's funny, "Garn" means yarn. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[arianrod]

I don't know about Spanish being Black Speech, but I know my old Spanish teacher is Sauron. ...Does that count? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Samwise]

It's not Spanish because the "ho" and the "la" are seperate.

Funny, they're not in my book.

'Hola! Gorbag! WHat are you doing up here?'

'Hai! Hola! Here's something!'

Kind of does sound like a name being used here...but from what I read no Orc named 'Hola' ever says anything. Of course, Sam does say:

'Thirty or forty (Orcs are there) from the tower at least, and a lot more than that from down below, I guess.'

LOL...so if there were a hundred Orcs milling around, I guess Tolkien couldn't have given them ALL a speaking part...;p

[Arwen Melian]

I swaer i saw them separate in one part in my book *holds up book to screen...look*. I wouldn't have said that otherwise. Maybe its typo. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[arianrod]

It's one word in my version, too.

I wonder if it couldn't have been a name/nickname.

It's possible, but odd that it only appears in the dialogue. We can't assuse that just because it isn't mentioned outside of the dialogue it's not a name, but I would think that Tolkien would at least make some other reference to another Orc that he took the time to name... *shrug* But that's just me. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Lord of Angmar]

A strange point, Arianrod. I think that in fact it was a name, or some sort of call. Tolkien did sometimes use names for people within the context of dialogue and not without. There is an example of this, I believe, in the Mustering of Rohan chapter, though I could not be sure. I suppose it could could be an orkish equivalent of "lazy bones" or "good-for-nothing", something to that effect.

[Maikadurwen]

maybe the orcs were just grunting or something [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

Perhaps "Hola" was meant to be the Black Speech equivalent of "you guys" or a "large group."

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

I've always thought of if simply as an exclamation. In my mind, an orc saying "Hola!" would be the equivalent of someone saying "Wow!" or "Look!" or "Hey!".

[Lady_Báin]

Lutien I think you are the closest to the right answer. The orks probably wouldn't be using the same language and therefore would not throw in random words of black speech. I think it is most likely just and exclamation of some sort.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

In fact, it could have been a dutch word as well. "Hola" in dutch is an exlamation, like "wait a minute" or "Hey, what's that?".
[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

Well, now that I think about it, you never know.

The other day, in my Spanish class, my teacher was going over division of syllables, and we got to the word, "lagrima." I think it means "tear." Anyway, it can be divided up into "La Grima" which would mean "The (implied female) Grima." And Grima caused a lot of tears to be shed. So, you never know with that Spanish, Tolkien could be trying to tell you something.

[Samwise]

Whoa. Now THAT's interesting, Finwe. After all, Prof Tolkien WAS a linguist...(if that's the correct term...) [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

In fact, the word 'Grima' exists in Spanish. It probably comes from gothic *grimms which meant horrible.

Grima means loathing, disgust, aversion, annoyance. And is mostly used in the sentence 'algo/alguien me da grima' which means 'something/somebody gives me the shivers' or 'something/somebody sickens me'; which fits very well with Grima Wormtongue.

I think that probably Tolkien derived the name Grima from the original gothic word *grimms; not directly from Spanish. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Lágrima (tear) has nothing to see with grima; it comes from latin lacrima.

[Frodo Baggins]

Oh for the tenth time!

Grima is an actuall Anglo-Saxon word, "grima". It means helmet or mask, or in more poetical senses ghost. Since Grima was Rohirrim and Rohirric and Saxon are almost identical. MAkes sense.


Also, Some people will try to tell you black speech is Gaelic. They will give evidence saying "nazg" or 'ring' is from the Gaelic "Nasc" meaning ring as well. WRONG!! The Gaelic word for 'ring' is "fainne".

[Finwe]

Sorry Amarië! It appears that I must defer to my betters when it comes to Latin roots and Spanish words. I am merely a beginner in that illustrious tongue.

I wouldn't put it past the old Professor to garner words from Latin, after all, look what he did with the Celtic languages!

[Samwise]

Mr. Frodo? Well, I'll be! Didn't know you were such an athourity on languages...b'sides th' Elvish, that is. Welcome t' the thread.

[Sharkû]

I prefer the authority of Professor Tolkien:

"nazg: the word for 'ring' in the Black Speech. This was devised to be a vocable as distinct in style and phonetic content from words of the same meaning in Elvish, or in other real languages that are most familiar: English, Latin, Greek, etc. Though actual congruences (of form + sense) occur in unrelated real languages, and it is impossible in constructing imaginary languages from a limited number of component sounds to avoid such resemblances (if one tries to – I do not), it remains remarkable that nasc is the word for 'ring' in Gaelic (Irish: in Scottish usually written nasg). It also fits well in meaning, since it also means, and prob. originally meant, a bond, and can be used for an 'obligation'. Nonetheless I only became aware, or again aware, of its existence recently in looking for something in a Gaelic dictionary. I have no liking at all for Gaelic from Old Irish downwards, as a language, but it is of course of great historical and philological interest, and I have at various times studied it. (With alas! very little success.) It is thus probable that nazg is actually derived from it, and this short, hard and clear vocable, sticking out from what seems to me (an unloving alien) a mushy language, became lodged in some comer of my linguistic memory." (Letter 297)

[ September 05, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]