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Old 02-24-2019, 10:05 AM   #1
Huinesoron
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Pipe The First Lord of the Rings Map - new discoveries in the East

In HoME 7, The Treason of Isengard, Christopher Tolkien redraws his father's original working map of The Lord of the Rings. He goes over the different parts of it in great detail, excluding only the empty stretches east of Mordor and the Sea of Rhun.

The recent book Tolkien: Maker of Middle-earth features an actual scan of the First Map (item 179), and those eastern regions? They're not so empty after all.



Full-size version
Closeup of 'B' (taken from the inside front cover)

There are a range of notes written in the empty reaches of Rhun, along with some faint (at least in this version of the image) drawings. I've highlighted what I can make out.

(To be clear: this is a completely different map to the annotated Pauline Baynes map, despite the similar style of notes.)

Of immediate note is C, which is quite clearly an eastern mountain range with a region of higher peaks at the southern end. If you've been following the discussion of the Amazon TV series, you'll know that mountains in that location are quite controversial - well, apparently they're a Tolkien original! They come with what may be a label (D), but it's utterly illegible to me.

Speaking of labels... B is pretty clearly a name for the forest on the north-east corner of the Sea of Rhun, and unlike the rest of these, there's a closeup available (they used the map from the Shire to the Sea of Rhun as the inside cover for the book). It... kind of looks like it says 'Neldoreth'? That would fit with Tolkien's habit of pilfering names from the Silm, but I'm not over-confident in my reading. (Paired with Dorwinion, though, it says interesting things about the region.)

E marks a line that starts north of the mountains C, curves west towards Mordor, then swings back to hit the outer ring around G. Is it a crossing-out? A river, drawn very faintly? A dividing line? I don't know.

G is fascinating, because it looks for all the world like a tiny circular map. Those wiggles say 'coastline' to me, but it's definitely not Middle-earth or Beleriand. Any thoughts?

All the other items are notes of varying legibility, some of them crossed out. They may not even relate to the eastern regions - but even if not, they're Tolkien's own notes, and weren't covered in HoME. I can't read them - can anyone here?

hS
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Old 03-18-2019, 11:16 PM   #2
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It would be to sad if this threrad would go into oblivion without any answer!

So I will start with C, and hope that other may join. I have worked a bit with this Map and its eastern ‘extention’ in comparision to Map V of the [b]Ambrakanta[/i] in HoME 4. The issue with that comparision is that we have no scale on Map V and that we have only one common feature (the Great Gulf becoming the later Bay of Belfalas). And that feature is changed so much (proberbly over time) as not useable for scaling. So we have to get some additional ‘helper’. That ‘helper’ is the Second Silmarillion Map from HoME 5. This Map has a scale and can thus easily be fited to the First Lord of the Rings Map and provides all the features of Beleriand that are on Ambrakanta Map V.

Trying to compare these Maps we find different things:
- Beleriand is some how distorted on Ambrakanta Map V.
- Beleriand is depicted to large on Ambrakanta Map V, since if we scale to match Beleriand the Great Gulf will in no way fit the Later Bay of Belfalas and the Red Moutians from Ambrakanta Map V would rather fall to gether with the Iron Moutians of the First Lord of the Rings Map .
- However if we look for a compromise in scaling that would alow for parts of Beleriand and the Great Gulf / Bay of Belfalas to fit, the Mountian Range on the eastern part of the First Lord of the Rings Map will at least be near to the Red Mountains on Ambrakanta Map V.

So the evidence we take out of that comparision sayes yes, the range east on the First Lord of the Rings Map are identical with the Orocarni.

But of course that is no garantee that these Mountian Range on the eastern part of the First Lord of the Rings Map are the Thrid Age remains of the Orocarni! Ambrakanta Map V was drawn when there was no Lord of the Rings. How the invention of the Second and Third Age changed Tolkien’s Vision of Arda from that depicted in Ambrakanta Map V we can not know for sure.

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Old 03-19-2019, 09:14 AM   #3
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Findegil: neat! I had a play with Ambarkanta V and the finished LotR map at one point, but didn't think of carrying through to this one and the Silmarillion map. (I wound up with the Orocarni wandering anywhere from the Misty Mountains to the Sea of Rhun, so my results approximately agree with yours.)

Comparing Ambarkanta IV and V to the later maps, it's pretty clear that Tolkien straight-up added the Misty Mountains to his worldview at some point. It would make sense for this to be when he decided The Hobbit was part of the Legendarium; he would then have added in the references to the Silm, and gotten the whole map pretty much how we know it.

The Misty Mountains are already closer to the Blue mountains than to these mystery eastern mountains. It doesn't seem implausible for the main continent of Middle-earth to actually end pretty close to the eastern edge of the map - with just another Beleriand-sized region to go. Intriguingly, this would make the Sea of Nurn the last vestiges of the Inland Sea of Helkar - and put Cuivienen somewhere in southern Mordor. I... have no idea whether Tolkien would have done that?

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Old 03-19-2019, 10:44 AM   #4
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You know, it's just possible to make a case that in the very earliest stages of writing The Hobbit, or at least making the original version of the Wilderland Map,Tolkien had Beleriand in mind. The Misty Mountains were the Ered Wethrin (lit. "Mountains of Mist"), the Great River was Sirion (lit. "THE River"), and Mirkwood was Taur-nu-Fuin (lit. "Forest of Dark Shadow"), complete with Sauron holing up there- and Tolkien even recycled the painting of Turin and Gwindor there and titled it Mirkwood! The Withered Heath would correspond with Anfauglith (which was literally "withered" from Ard-galen, thanks to dragonfire). The "Edge of the Wild" meant leaving the relative safety of Hithlum behind.

And there's I think just a hint of an intermediate stage where the Misty Mountains were the Blue Mountains, and crossing them meant leaving Beleriand for Terra Incognita.

Of course, that idea disappeared very, very early since already by the troll chapter Gandalf says Gondolin was sacked "many ages ago."

But the more likely explanation is simply that Tolkien was just recycling bits and pieces of Silmarillion ideas without any conscious intent that Mr Baggins existed in the same universe, any more than Farmer Giles or Mr. Bliss did: Thranduil's halls recall Menegroth, but in pictures were copied from Nargothrond; the Gwindor/Mirkwood painting was just economical repurposing, (it was recycled yet again as Fangorn); Smaug on his underground hoard reflects Glaurung in Nargothrond (itself echoing Beowulf and the Volsung legend); the Great Eagles and Elrond were straight-up lifts.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:50 PM   #5
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There is of course also this reference in one of the original drafts:
Quote:
"Don't be absurd" said the wizard. "That is a job quite beyond the powers of all the dwarves, if they could be all gathered together again from the four corners of the world. And anyway his castle stands no more and he is flown to another darker place - Beren and Tinúviel broke his power, but that is quite another story."
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:02 PM   #6
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Posted by Huinesoron:
Quote:
I wound up with the Orocarni wandering anywhere from the Misty Mountains to the Sea of Rhun, so my results approximately agree with yours.
Yes, even with the 2nd Silmarillion Map included it is very tricky to get the relative scaling right between the Maps.

Posted by Huinesoron:
Quote:
Comparing Ambarkanta IV and V to the later maps, it's pretty clear that Tolkien straight-up added the Misty Mountains to his worldview at some point. It would make sense for this to be when he decided The Hobbit was part of the Legendarium; he would then have added in the references to the Silm, and gotten the whole map pretty much how we know it.
Not so sure what you mean here. At least Karen Wayn Fonstad interpreted the ‘adding’ of the Misty Mountians and all the stage of the LotR as a kind of pushing to the east away the elements on Ambrakanta Map V. But as a matter fact do not have to agree with her.

And yes, Middle-earth (which by the way is the main continent of Arda) becomes pretty much small when taking Ambrakanta Map IV and Map V serious.
Posted by Huinesoron:
Quote:
Intriguingly, this would make the Sea of Nurn the last vestiges of the Inland Sea of Helkar - and put Cuivienen somewhere in southern Mordor.
Yes, the Sea of Nurn would be the last vestiges of the Inland Sea of Helkar. But no, Cuivienen would not be in eastern Mordor. Actually the Inland Sea of Helkar would cover much more space: The Inland Sea covers on my combined Map parts of the Bay of Belfalas with Tolfalas, Lebenin and the eastern quarter of the Ered Nimrais. Its norther coast runs through the Nindalf and over Dargorlad and covers fully the Ered Lithui. So it has 100 miles distance to the southern coast of the Sea of Rhûn. In the south the Inland Sea covers Mordor and the Ephel Duath fully and reachs in the east to a point less than 200 miles from the edge of eastern extension of the LotR-Map.
On Map IV Cuivienen was at the in Map V narrow strip of land between the Inland Sea and the Red Mountians, so it has to be east of the later place of Mordor. But on the LotR Map all hints of the souther part of the Red Mountains are gone. We have to assume that they were removed.
Some farther intriguing thoughs. If we would accept that this Eastern Range is identical to the Orocarni this would have some interesting effects:
- During the Second Age the Eastern Sea would not be fare behind the Orocarni (this could be changed drastically with Arda made round at the end of the Second Age). But the Dominion over the East that Sauron held in the Second Age looks a bit smaller in this context then I would have expected.
- Considering the places where the fathers of the dwarves awoke, the Orocarni are for sure the most eastern place (Blacklocks and Stonefoots). But that means, that we have the place were the Ironfists and the Stiffbeards awoke inbetween Gundabad and the Orocarni. Looking to the First Lord of the Rings Map, the only place that seems fiting are the Iron Moutians. And indeed we can find a vaint supporting evidence for this: LotR, Appendix A III: Dúrin’s Folk:
Quote:
When the dreadful fires were in ashes the allies went away to their own countries, and Dáin Ironfoot led his father's people back to the Iron Hills. Then standing by the great stake, Thráin said to Thorin Oakenshield: 'Some would think this head dearly bought! At least we have given our kingdom for it. Will you come with me back to the anvil? Or will you beg your bread at proud doors?' 'To the anvil,' answered Thorin. 'The hammer will at least keep the arms strong, until they can wield sharper tools again.'
Why didn’t they go with Dáin to the Iron Hills? Probabaly because Iron Mountains were the teritory of other Houses and so Náin and Dáin were accepted guests the Kings of Dúrins House would not go their asking for hospitality. In the end they did so in the Ered Lindon, but the connection to the western Houses (Firebeards and Broadbeams) had always been strong since we hear in LotR, Appendix A III: Dúrin’s Folk:
Quote:
… It was after the end of the First Age that the great power and wealth of Moria began, for it was enriched by many folk and much lore and craft, when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost were ruined in the change of the western world and the breaking of Morgoth. …
So dwarves from Ered Lindon had for a long time being guest of the House of Dúrin probably including their Kings, which might it have made easier for Thráin to accept the hospitality of these western Houses.
And considering that Tolkien always used speaking names, doesn’t it fit to have the Ironfists in the Iron Hills and the Stiffbeards to be balmed by Thráin to dwell behind ‘proud doors’?
- And then we have this Note from HoME 12, Of Dwarves and Men:
Quote:
… They were brave and loyal folk, truehearted, haters of Morgoth and his servants; and at first had regarded the Dwarves askance, fearing that they were under the Shadow (as they said).[Footnote to the text: For they had met some far to the East who were of evil mind. [This was a later pencilled note. On the previous page of the typescript my father wrote at the same time, without indication of its reference to the text but perhaps arising from the mention (p. 301) of the awakening of the eastern kindreds of the Dwarves: 'Alas, it seems probable that (as Men did later) the Dwarves of the far eastern mansions (and some of the nearer ones?) came under the Shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil.']]
Thus there is a chance of Dwarvish house in alliance with the Enemy as fare west as the Iron Hills!

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Old 03-20-2019, 04:18 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
You know, it's just possible to make a case that in the very earliest stages of writing The Hobbit, or at least making the original version of the Wilderland Map,Tolkien had Beleriand in mind. The Misty Mountains were the Ered Wethrin (lit. "Mountains of Mist"), the Great River was Sirion (lit. "THE River"), and Mirkwood was Taur-nu-Fuin (lit. "Forest of Dark Shadow"), complete with Sauron holing up there- and Tolkien even recycled the painting of Turin and Gwindor there and titled it Mirkwood! The Withered Heath would correspond with Anfauglith (which was literally "withered" from Ard-galen, thanks to dragonfire). The "Edge of the Wild" meant leaving the relative safety of Hithlum behind.
And if you follow the map eastward from Hithlum, you wind up at the long Lake Helevorn (which Tolkien Gateway cites Parma Eldalamberon XVII as saying might have originally had a dwarvish name), at the foot of towering Mount Rerir... but, as you say, it doesn't all fit well enough to be sure he wasn't just borrowing random pieces. (The biggest knife in the theory's heart is that the Elvenking's hatred of dwarves must place us after the death of Thingol - but Sauron had been driven out long before then.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
Yes, the Sea of Nurn would be the last vestiges of the Inland Sea of Helkar. But no, Cuivienen would not be in eastern Mordor. Actually the Inland Sea of Helkar would cover much more space: The Inland Sea covers on my combined Map parts of the Bay of Belfalas with Tolfalas, Lebenin and the eastern quarter of the Ered Nimrais. Its norther coast runs through the Nindalf and over Dargorlad and covers fully the Ered Lithui. So it has 100 miles distance to the southern coast of the Sea of Rhûn. In the south the Inland Sea covers Mordor and the Ephel Duath fully and reachs in the east to a point less than 200 miles from the edge of eastern extension of the LotR-Map.

On Map IV Cuivienen was at the in Map V narrow strip of land between the Inland Sea and the Red Mountians, so it has to be east of the later place of Mordor. But on the LotR Map all hints of the souther part of the Red Mountains are gone. We have to assume that they were removed.
Oops! You're quite right; thank you for the correction. To make up for my Cuivienen mistake, I'll note that this suggests Nurn was once connected to the Bay of Belfalas, but that the raising of the Ephel Duath (whenever that occurred) cut it off.

I don't think I agree that the southern Red Mountains have to be removed, though - the finished map doesn't extend that far east, and the image I posted here is so faint it's hard to say anything at all. If C is indeed a mountain range, Tolkien could simply have stopped because he ran into the top of his notes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
Some farther intriguing thoughs. If we would accept that this Eastern Range is identical to the Orocarni this would have some interesting effects:
- During the Second Age the Eastern Sea would not be fare behind the Orocarni (this could be changed drastically with Arda made round at the end of the Second Age). But the Dominion over the East that Sauron held in the Second Age looks a bit smaller in this context then I would have expected.
It does - but not that much smaller. Beleriand was a sizeable realm - say the same size as the Holy Roman Empire, which had a population in the tens of millions. This article estimates the Gondorian population as 1-2 million, which means Sauron's realms beyond the mountains outmassed them by a factor of five. Add in Rhun (the Wainriders were Sauron's servants), and you end up pushing 7-10x the total population of the Free Peoples.

(And of course, they're almost all mortals. There's no evidence that the Avari ever headed east - their whole thing was not leaving - and the dwarves mostly stay in their mountains. When the mortals spread north from Hildorien, there would have been very few people there ahead of them.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
- Considering the places where the fathers of the dwarves awoke, the Orocarni are for sure the most eastern place (Blacklocks and Stonefoots). But that means, that we have the place were the Ironfists and the Stiffbeards awoke inbetween Gundabad and the Orocarni. Looking to the First Lord of the Rings Map, the only place that seems fiting are the Iron Moutians. And indeed we can find a vaint supporting evidence for this: LotR, Appendix A III: Dúrin’s Folk:

Quote:
When the dreadful fires were in ashes the allies went away to their own countries, and Dáin Ironfoot led his father's people back to the Iron Hills. Then standing by the great stake, Thráin said to Thorin Oakenshield: 'Some would think this head dearly bought! At least we have given our kingdom for it. Will you come with me back to the anvil? Or will you beg your bread at proud doors?' 'To the anvil,' answered Thorin. 'The hammer will at least keep the arms strong, until they can wield sharper tools again.'
Why didn’t they go with Dáin to the Iron Hills? Probabaly because Iron Mountains were the teritory of other Houses and so Náin and Dáin were accepted guests the Kings of Dúrins House would not go their asking for hospitality. In the end they did so in the Ered Lindon, but the connection to the western Houses (Firebeards and Broadbeams) had always been strong...
That... is a really excellent point. I can't imagine any scenario where the king of Durin's line would have to 'beg [his] bread at proud doors' of his own people - so yes, I think it highly likely that the Iron Hills were populated by another House (or two). The spacing matches the source-text for the other houses, too:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoME XII: Of Dwarves and Men
The other two places were eastward, at distances as great or greater than that between the Blue Mountains and Gundabad: the arising of the Ironfists and Stiff-beards, and that of the Blacklocks and Stonefoots.
The eastern limits of the Iron Hills (as shown on the LotR map) are about as far east of Gundabad as the Blue Mountains are west.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
And considering that Tolkien always used speaking names, doesn’t it fit to have the Ironfists in the Iron Hills and the Stiffbeards to be balmed by Thráin to dwell behind ‘proud doors’?
I'm not sure about this one. It would fit, but there are no such name-references to the Firebeards and Broadbeams that I'm aware of in the Silm. (The Longbeards do get some such comments, though...) I think the Ironfist link is most likely to be a Tolkien invention (and does this mean Dain Ironfoot had 'one foot in Ironfist culture' or somesuch?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
- And then we have this Note from HoME 12, Of Dwarves and Men:

Quote:
… They were brave and loyal folk, truehearted, haters of Morgoth and his servants; and at first had regarded the Dwarves askance, fearing that they were under the Shadow (as they said).[Footnote to the text: For they had met some far to the East who were of evil mind. [This was a later pencilled note. On the previous page of the typescript my father wrote at the same time, without indication of its reference to the text but perhaps arising from the mention (p. 301) of the awakening of the eastern kindreds of the Dwarves: 'Alas, it seems probable that (as Men did later) the Dwarves of the far eastern mansions (and some of the nearer ones?) came under the Shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil.']]
Thus there is a chance of Dwarvish house in alliance with the Enemy as fare west as the Iron Hills!
... which adds a new level to Gandalf's plan to reclaim the Lonely Mountain: it would bring the loyalist king (Thorin, or Dain if Thorin died) that much closer to his potentially treacherous kin!

I really want to suggest that the Lonely Mountain itself could have been the awakening place of the Ironfist and Stiffbeard founders; it would add so many layers to The Hobbit. But, alas, it's far too close to Gundabad for that.

hS
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Old 03-20-2019, 11:01 AM   #8
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Another problem with trying to push the Beleriand thing too hard: Smaug was a winged, flying dragon, something which already in the Quenta Noldorinwa (contemporary with the start of The Hobbit) Tolkien had declared were never seen before the War of Wrath.
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Old 08-13-2019, 11:45 AM   #9
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Coming back to the lables on the Map:
B): I agree that this might read ‘Neldoreth’. Sindarin ‘neldor’ means ‘three-tree’ and was brodend in use from the special beech ‘Hirilorn’ as a name for all beech trees. So ‘Neldoreth’ means ‘beech-forest’. So we know what trees we might expact there. It shows as well that the name was given after the Elves had have seen the Hirilorn in Beleriand. So it might have been applied in a kind of backward refelction, since the Elves had come along that forest and after settling in Doriath might have remembered the forest in the east with the same kind of trees.

D) I think we can confirm that this is the name of the Mountains. The lable is clearly in 2 lines and the first charachter in the second line is nearly for sure a capital ‘M’. The second bow of the ‘M’ is smaller, but that is a feature of Tolkiens handscript found as well elsewhere on the same map (e.g. the ‘M’ in ‘NO MANS LAND’). In addition we have just at the beginning of the tape that seems to cover part of the word a line reaching above the tape. Supposedly that is the upper stroke of a ‘t’. Even so I can not make out much about the charachters between the ‘M’ and the souposed ‘t’, beside that they are lower case with out any upper stroke, the disntace fits for ‘oun’. So I think it is a good gues that the second line of the lable reads ‘Mountains’.
The first line is much harder since we have no idea what it might mean. It seems to be a long word. And my best guess for the first characters is ‘Th’. Near to the end of the long word we have a charchter with an upper stroke. That one says ‘d’ to me, so that is a pure guess.

J) One feature of interest here is that this note starts with an asterix (*). Normaly I would hope to find a nother asterix somewhere on the map, but so far I could not find it. Has anybody else an idea where the reference for that note might be?

I hope this might provoke some thoughts.

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Old 08-14-2019, 06:56 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
Coming back to the lables on the Map:
B): I agree that this might read ‘Neldoreth’. Sindarin ‘neldor’ means ‘three-tree’ and was brodend in use from the special beech ‘Hirilorn’ as a name for all beech trees. So ‘Neldoreth’ means ‘beech-forest’. So we know what trees we might expact there. It shows as well that the name was given after the Elves had have seen the Hirilorn in Beleriand. So it might have been applied in a kind of backward refelction, since the Elves had come along that forest and after settling in Doriath might have remembered the forest in the east with the same kind of trees.
This is beautiful. Given the ephemeral nature of these notes, it can't be considered canon-canon - but as Tolkien's only known thoughts on the forest, it should probably be held as 'true' under most systems anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
D) I think we can confirm that this is the name of the Mountains. The lable is clearly in 2 lines and the first charachter in the second line is nearly for sure a capital ‘M’. The second bow of the ‘M’ is smaller, but that is a feature of Tolkiens handscript found as well elsewhere on the same map (e.g. the ‘M’ in ‘NO MANS LAND’). In addition we have just at the beginning of the tape that seems to cover part of the word a line reaching above the tape. Supposedly that is the upper stroke of a ‘t’. Even so I can not make out much about the charachters between the ‘M’ and the souposed ‘t’, beside that they are lower case with out any upper stroke, the disntace fits for ‘oun’. So I think it is a good gues that the second line of the lable reads ‘Mountains’.
The first line is much harder since we have no idea what it might mean. It seems to be a long word. And my best guess for the first characters is ‘Th’. Near to the end of the long word we have a charchter with an upper stroke. That one says ‘d’ to me, so that is a pure guess.
This is my best read of the visible lines:



Now that you say it, I definitely agree on 'Mountain[s]'. As for the first word...

Could it be 'Thangorodrim'? It would fit the theme of reusing Silm words, and the final letter does look like an m. The letter after Th also looks close to an a, and the semi-closed loop a little after it could be the top of a g (it has some pretty firm lines in it). The lines above would have to be artefacts or pencil blots, but that's entirely plausible.

And the name would make sense, from a Silm-pilfering perspective: it means 'Mountains of Tyranny', which fits for the borders of Sauron's greater empire. And, well, I can't think of any other 'Th[long word]' mountain ranges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
J) One feature of interest here is that this note starts with an asterix (*). Normaly I would hope to find a nother asterix somewhere on the map, but so far I could not find it. Has anybody else an idea where the reference for that note might be?
I don't remember seeing one on the map as scanned... I'll have a look tonight. But much of the region to the west has been pasted over, so any corresponding asterisk has likely been obliterated. [Edit: I couldn't find one.]

A thought: there's one inked word between I and J - does it say 'sand', with the stick of the d hidden under the gridline? Again, I'm not sure that's information we've had about Rhun before.

hS

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Old 08-20-2019, 01:57 PM   #11
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D) I don’t belief in ‘Thangorodrim’. As far as I remember it is never used together with ‘Mountians’ by Tolkien. If we belief in ‘Mountain[s]’, I think we have to look for an English word. As in ‘Red Mts.’, ‘Blue Mts.’, ‘Yellow Mts.’, ‘Gray Mts’, ‘White Mts.’ or ‘Misty Moutians’. As we have on Ambrakanta Map IV the ‘Mts of the Wind’ in a slightly more southern position, could these mean ‘Thunderous Mountains’?

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Old 08-20-2019, 04:44 PM   #12
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Mountains of Iron?
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Old 09-30-2019, 02:39 PM   #13
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The inked word between I and J: If it is not 'Sand' the it is verry similar. At lest we have 'S?n?' and the second sign is either 'a' or 'o'. So we would have 'Sona', 'Sono', 'Sano' or 'Sana'. But none of this does make any sense for me. So 'Sand' is very probable.

And now to G: I looked for any costline similarity and I found that when we turn the map up side down it showes some similarity to Ambrakanta Map V. We have an oval shape as the soruonding of the world, which looks like the shape of a compromise projection of modern map of our round world. In the lower part it is and Africa like shape with a kind of correction in on the eastern costline. In the north-west the costline shows the great gulf and farther north it looks like the Bay of Balar and the Beleriand cost running north-west. In the south-east we have something like India, farther east the cost is to far north, But the shape has a slight similarity to the costline of eat-asia.

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Old 10-01-2019, 05:17 AM   #14
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Last night I pulled out my phone microscope and took some closeups of the map, to see if I could draw out any more details. I was all set to post them, but: I've found an absolutely huge scan of the whole thing online.

Via 'New Criterion'

Starting from the top, then:

A: something to do with distances. It's two sentences, the first of which looks like it reads:

Quote:
Shire - should be 40 miles further west
The second is trickier, but definitely includes '50 miles'.

B: I'm less convinced that this says 'Neldoreth' now. It looks more like 'Nelo[n/u/v]eh'.

C: That's definitely a mountain range.

D: Is sadly not a name for said mountain range. The first line is 'This should be', and the second looks like it starts 'Mist'. One possibility is that C is an early sketch for the shape of the Misty Mountains, but the shape looks very wrong.

E: I think the line is clearly intended to separate C from the body of the map.

F: Very clear, except for Tolkien's handwriting. This might say:

Quote:
*Isengard should be ____
up to Vale. 30 miles
__ __ __ to D.C. ____?
G: If the 'Isengard' reading for F is correct, then I think G is a sketch of the Vale of Isengard, ie Nan Curunir. It seems to match the shape of the valley on the main map, and shows a river running down from the north.

H: The only word I can make out on this is the last word of the third line from the end, which must be 'Nindalf'.

I: The last word of the first line is 'Anduin', and the lone word on the third line is 'Hills'. I think the second line might end with 'and omit [Proper Noun]', in which case this refers to a deleted feature. One possibility is the named hills on the Brown Lands, which seem to have been removed when the Rohan overlay was placed; their name ends with '-en', which could match this note.

I.2: 'Sand' or 'some' or 'sane'. Could be flippin' anything.

J: Appears to contain the words 'should be farther East'. I think the name 'Orodruin' may also show up? I'm not sure though.

It does look like these are very much working notes, not particularly new information. But it's still interesting, and missing from HoME! And unless someone can find a match for that mysterious mountain range, it could still exist...

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Old 05-13-2020, 05:58 AM   #15
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Hello,

Thanks a lot for this very hight quality map and analysis

Here's my two cents :

B : it IS Neldoreth ; cf HOME 7.15 :
"The forest bordering the Sea of Rhunaer (L 19) extends on the First Map round the north-eastern point of the Sea and down its eastern shore (L-M 20), and against it my father pencilled Neldoreth"

C : I think it's a resumption of the Hithaeglir's shape around Moria because :
- the drawing is at the same "latitude",
- all this part of the map seems to be an annotated corner for the North-Western map ("A" talk about Shire, "D" just close may be about Misty Mt, the slight line of "E" may separate this space from the North-Western map, "F" is about Isengard, "H" may talk about Nindalf, "I" is about Anduin)
- the shape fits

G : It seems to me that's rather the sketch of the vale south of the gap of Isen (the sketch is also at the same latitude), opposite Isengard


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Old 05-13-2020, 06:32 AM   #16
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Interesting. On the large map linked by Huinesoron on October 1, 2019, there is a fairly clear label north of Rivendell that seems to read "Entish Lands."
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:38 AM   #17
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Hello,

Thanks a lot for this very hight quality map and analysis

Here's my two cents :

B : it IS Neldoreth ; cf HOME 7.15 :
"The forest bordering the Sea of Rhunaer (L 19) extends on the First Map round the north-eastern point of the Sea and down its eastern shore (L-M 20), and against it my father pencilled Neldoreth"
Oh, well spotted! So although Tolkien was probably just following his usual practice of stealing older names for the new map, this does mean we can assume there are beech-trees around the Sea of Rhun ('Neldoreth' meaning 'beech-wood').

And it rather strengthens the idea that Dorwinion, on the coast of the same sea, was an Elvish kingdom - another of the 'Sindar come in and take over' kingdoms. Looking at the map, Lorien, Amon Lanc (original heart of the Woodland Realm) and Dorwinion on Rhun all lie roughly on a line, so we can imagine Silvan petty-kingdoms stretched out through this whole region. In fact... I wonder if this might be the line of the original Great March, with the various kingdoms being founded wherever people happened to drop out. The shores of Rhunaer seem like a reasonable place to stop, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erendis of Numenor View Post
C : I think it's a resumption of the Hithaeglir's shape around Moria because :
- the drawing is at the same "latitude",
- all this part of the map seems to be an annotated corner for the North-Western map ("A" talk about Shire, "D" just close may be about Misty Mt, the slight line of "E" may separate this space from the North-Western map, "F" is about Isengard, "H" may talk about Nindalf, "I" is about Anduin)
- the shape fits
Agreed. This also explains the four heavier marks on the sketch - three of them mark the Mountains of Moria, while I think the fourth might be Moria itself.[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erendis of Numenor View Post
G : It seems to me that's rather the sketch of the vale south of the gap of Isen (the sketch is also at the same latitude), opposite Isengard
Once again you are exactly right: there's a note to the right of the sketch that (when you know what it says) clearly reads "Helm's Deep". Well spotted! And congratulations on your excellent first post.

Quote:
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Interesting. On the large map linked by Huinesoron on October 1, 2019, there is a fairly clear label north of Rivendell that seems to read "Entish Lands."
Ooh. It does, and it's struck out, with an arrow pointing up into the north. The label at the end of the arrow says:

"Ettinmoor
Alter Entishlands to .. [?]
[crossed through] Trollfells
[Crossed through] [????]land"

The rejected [something]land looks like it says "Bupiland", but that's obviously wrong. It could maybe be some variant on bogle, but I really can't see a G in there.

Ah, it looks like Christopher had this one. According to HoME 7:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Treason of Isengard
Entish Land Q 11) is original, but is absent from the 1943 map; a later note against this on the First Map says: 'Alter Entish Lands to [Trollfells > Bergrisland >] Ettenmoor'. This would seem to be the place where Ettenmoor(s) was first devised, but see p. 65 note 32. Bergrisland is from Old Norse berg-risi 'hill-giant'
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Old 05-14-2020, 09:51 AM   #18
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Is it just me, or does it look like somebody (Tolkien himself?) has gone through and reinforced some but not all of the original blurred pencil with bolder, black pencil?
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Old 05-17-2020, 12:36 AM   #19
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I wonder if this might be the line of the original Great March, with the various kingdoms being founded wherever people happened to drop out. The shores of Rhunaer seem like a reasonable place to stop, after all.
Yes, there's text in, I think, HoME XII that confirms this, the Sea of Rhûn was one of the stopping-off points on the Great March. The Cirdan material in XII is the place to look, IIRC.
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Old 05-18-2020, 09:51 AM   #20
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Yes, there's text in, I think, HoME XII that confirms this, the Sea of Rhûn was one of the stopping-off points on the Great March. The Cirdan material in XII is the place to look, IIRC.
HME XII 391. However, these "Late Writings" also mention, in slightly greater detail, the sojourn of the Peoples of Beor and Marach (Hador) on the shores of the Sea of Rhun during their much later migration: and there is not a trace of an Eldarin population at that time.
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Old 05-19-2020, 02:39 AM   #21
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Quote:
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Yes, there's text in, I think, HoME XII that confirms this, the Sea of Rhûn was one of the stopping-off points on the Great March. The Cirdan material in XII is the place to look, IIRC.
HME XII 391. However, these "Late Writings" also mention, in slightly greater detail, the sojourn of the Peoples of Beor and Marach (Hador) on the shores of the Sea of Rhun during their much later migration: and there is not a trace of an Eldarin population at that time.
Thank you both! I've looked up both these references, and what strikes me is that the Beor/Marach text very specifically places one group in the forests to the north-east ("Neldoreth"), and the other in the hills to the south-west.

Dorwinion, meanwhile, per Tolkien's notes on the Baynes map, is in the north-west regions of the Sea, where the Celduin flows into it. Given that (per the Beor/Marach text) it took Men ages to realise that there were other mortals around the Sea, they could certainly have missed an Eldarin presence.

What I'm wondering is whether "Neldoreth" is a survivor of a great eastern forest, and whether the Celduin vale was the first non-forested area the Great March encountered. If some of the Teleri had a strong preference for open skies, the combination of "wide open spaces" and "big sea to boat about on" could have induced them to stay.

This would also explain the settling patterns further west: the Amon Lanc group were spooked by the open spaces, so stopped when they reached a hill that let them confirm there were woods all around them again, while the Lorien group stopped once they hit the mountains and went "nah, we're staying in the woods".

None of these were 'kingdoms' (or even named); they were just scattered populations strung out along the line of the March. We know this for sure, because when the Sindar showed up, they simply put themselves in charge. I actually wonder whether for most of the Second Age, Amdir and Oropher were 'kings' only of their Sindarin followers, with the Nandor pretty much ignoring them.

The name, like the kingdom, would have come later. I would imagine Neldoreth was named first, in memory of Doriath; when the Sindar realised they could grow wine along Celduin, they revived the name of Dorwinion for their new realm.

Oh, and for bonus points:

Blador: Noldorin (early Sindarin), 'World'. Relative of 'Palurien', name of Yavanna.

Thind: Sindarin, 'Grey', as in Thingol.

Bladorthin: 'King of the Clouded Land/Misty Vale/Grey World'.

^_^

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Old 05-19-2020, 11:51 PM   #22
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Given that (per the Beor/Marach text) it took Men ages to realise that there were other mortals around the Sea, they could certainly have missed an Eldarin presence.
The Silmarillion also states that Finrod was the first of the Eldar met by Men, but this might be one of those cases where Tolkien had something more specific in mind, in this case maybe "Eldar in Beleriand" rather than "Eldar of the March". However, Men on their way west did have dealings with Dark Elves, so maybe the Sea of Rhûn is indeed one of those places where such dealings happened, but the later text just omitted to mention it.
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Old 05-20-2020, 04:34 AM   #23
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The Silmarillion also states that Finrod was the first of the Eldar met by Men, but this might be one of those cases where Tolkien had something more specific in mind, in this case maybe "Eldar in Beleriand" rather than "Eldar of the March".
My memory is that the Silm generally takes the Valinorean position of using "Eldar" specifically to refer to the Calaquendi + Sindar, so this would still fit.

Another thought which has occurred: if the idea that the Sea of Rhun is the north-western remnant of the Inland Sea of Helcar is correct, then Dorwinion would be the point where the Great March finally stopped following the coastline. That seems like a really plausible place for some of the Teleri to drop out.

Alternately: this is the Silm's description of the War for the Sake of the Elves:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silm
the Quendi knew nothing of the great Battle of the Powers, save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved
Given that the Valar were in the habit of making and breaking mountains in their wars, I wonder whether "the waters were moved" is a reference to the breaking of the Inland Sea of Helcar. If Morgoth's defences included raising Orodruin and the mountains of Mordor in the middle of that sea (HoME XII says he created the volcano during the long First Age), then what the Eldar marched past following the war could have been the dried-up coastline of the Sea. The Sea of Rhun would have been a glorious return to the coastlines of their first home, and one which some of them would have hated to give up again.

(Possible supporting evidence: Silm says that before they reached Anduin, the Eldar passed "through a forest". This could imply that they previously hadn't been through many forests - which lends some support to the idea of a landscape still recovering from a War of the Powers.)

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Old 05-20-2020, 07:56 AM   #24
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Given the Neldoreth simply means "Beechwood," it could easily have been used twice at different times by different populations without reference to one another. Vide the very common placenames Blackwater, Beaverdam etc.
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Old 05-20-2020, 08:13 AM   #25
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Given the Neldoreth simply means "Beechwood," it could easily have been used twice at different times by different populations without reference to one another. Vide the very common placenames Blackwater, Beaverdam etc.
Entirely possible! My theory that it isn't is based on two (maybe three) points:

1. There's no text placing a Sindarin-speaking population in that area. Gondor exerted at least theoretical authority up to the Sea of Rhun at one point, but I don't think anything hints that they encircled the lake. Note that other features in the area - the River Running, Lonely Mountain, Lake Town, Mirkwood - may have Sindarin names, but they are known by their Common Speech names. There's no evidence of Westron equivalents for the regions around the Sea of Rhun.

2. Neldoreth isn't the only Beleriandic name reused around the Sea of Rhun: there's also Dorwinion. One instance may be coincidence, but two starts to look like a conspiracy.

3. There's an actual canonical statement that the Teleri stopped for a while on the shores of the Sea of Rhun. Given their habit of splitting off at random times, a splinter population is entirely plausible - and all the other known Silvan populations after the First Age wound up with Beleriandic Sindar ruling them.

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