Using Shelob, and choice of cliffhangers

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Now that we're extremely familiar with the movies, does anyone agree that it might have been better to put Shelob into The Two Towers, you know, where she was supposed to be?

What actually happened in the film of The Two Towers was this: Frodo and Sam stumbled through an achingly boring storyline with the pretend Faramir. A major reason Faramir is so bad in the film is because he had to appear as a threat to Frodo. And so they walk about a bit, go to Osgiliath, and end on the most disappointing cliffhanger possible: Gollum speaking to himself about how this mystery female could get the Ring for him.

*groan*

Here's what could have happened: the audience leaves the cinema seeing Frodo captured by Orcs and Sam all alone in Mordor trying to rescue him. Now that's an awesome cliffhanger!

Now I know that some of you will be replying "O, but we can't have anything else happen after Helm's Deep!" Well, why not? Don't be fooled by what happened in the film. Helm's Deep was one chapter of the book, one chapter. It was Jackson's choice to make the battle the be all and end all of The Two Towers. Anyway, it's not like nothing happened after the big climax anyway. We had that whole 'Frodo offers the Ring to the Ringwraith' deal, Sam's speech, Faramir's inexplicable change-of-heart and a little tale about Samwise the Brave! O, and to mention Gollum's ramblings. Is this dampening effect really so preferable to upping the tempo again and revelling in some Giant Spider Action? Methinks not.

"O, but then The Return of the King would be weaker!"

Well, indeed we wouldn't have any Shelob action, and we certainly wouldn't have a ridiculous lembas saga, but I think it is clear enough that Tolkien gave enough material to work with. The Tower of Cirith Ungol could have been a movie in itself, it just depends on how the director chooses to present it. We didn't see the Silent Watchers in action. Cirith Ungol was rushed horribly. And then we didn't even get to see Frodo and Sam with the Orcs in Mordor. This scene in the book was gripping and terrifying. In the extended edition DVD, this scene was pretty uninteresting and not scary at all.

So there you have it; I propose that we send Shelob back to The Two Towers!

[Folwren]

Eomer, you are awesome!!

I always thought the same thing...Shelob should defintely have gone in the TT. Before the movie came out, I always pictured the end to myself. It would have been a perfect cliff hanger.

You have this huge monster come out and apparently kill Frodo and then the orcs get him and Sam learns that he's alive, and the audience then does, too. At the end of the book, not only does the enemy have Frodo, but Sam is lying senseless right in front of an orc gate!!! Can you imagine how awesome they could have made that? With Howard Shores music...little Sam lying on the ground in front of a huge iron gate...it could have been awesome, sad, and extremely cliffhanging.

Anyhow, I don't have any more time to dramatize what I wish could have happened. Excellent point, Eomer, and I agree entirely with you.

[drigel]

Yea great point Eomer!
I would end it before the tower scene. People would be walking out quizzing their Tolkien expert friends: "Frodo dies? How can Frodo die???"

[Gurthang]

Yes, I agree entirely. The book ending had me so worked up that I couldn't wait to run to the library and get RotK. The movie left me disappointed; I had so been looking forward to seeing Shelob and then had to wait another year! And personally, I thought TTT was somewhat dragged out. It seemed much longer than it was. I could definitely have gone for more action.

And that's a good point about 'nothing left for RotK'. There would be plenty. When watching RotK in theater, I noticed a few points that seemed strangely broken, and I expected extended edition scenes in those breaks. The first one I remember was when the camera pans up and shows a circle of trees (the crossroads) in the distance, then doesn't say/show anything more about them. Until the EE that is. The second moment I noticed was when Sam was approaching the gate at Cirith Ungol. It zoomed in on the watchers and then Sam simply passes through. Again I was expecting a scene in the extended release, but there was no scene. Personally, I think it was a bad bit of directing, especially showing those statues up close and then ignoring them.

[mormegil]

I wonder, though, if that ending in TTT would be a bit much for a theatrical version. It seems to great a cliffhanger to end upon. The medium is different between movie and book (obviously) so Tolkien was able to effectively leave us with Shelob "killing" Frodo in the book, however, I don't see that it could be effectively done in the movie.

I think it would be a suspense overload and many movie goers wouldn't enjoy such an "ending", especially that large group who hadn't read the books.

I've stated elsewhere that I wish RotK had more of Sam and Frodo's journey through Mordor, the orc march specifically, but I don't agree that leaving Frodo "dead" would be a good way to end TTT.

Perhaps if we wanted to include Shelob in TTT then we could have gotten through Cirith Ungol but then the RotK would only be left with Mordor and Mt. Doom for Frodo and Sam.

I think what PJ was hoping to capture with Shelob at the start of RotK was instant excitement and energy. Show how perilous Mordor is. He didn't want to get Sam and Frodo to Mordor in the TTT and then resume in RotK. It was segmented into three pieces.

1. Frodo and Sam with the Fellowship
2. Frodo and Sam with Gollum
3. Frodo and Sam alone and in Mordor

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

"O, but then The Return of the King would be weaker!"

ROTK couldn't really be weak unless PJ really, really tired at it. With the Siege of Minas Tirith, the Ride of the Rohirrim, and the ulitmate destruction of the Ring I don't think ROTK would have been weaker if Shelob was in TTT.

When I went to see TTT opening night with my parents the entire way there all I could talk about was seeing Oliphants and the Shelob cliffhanger. Well the Olophants were there, but no Shelob. I was crushed. It would have been one of the greatest cliffhangers in cinema history if PJ had added it.

[Folwren]

Originally posted by mormegil
I've stated elsewhere that I wish RotK had more of Sam and Frodo's journey through Mordor, the orc march specifically, but I don't agree that leaving Frodo "dead" would be a good way to end TTT.

No, no, no. You don't leave him "Dead", so to speak, just helpless. The audience will end up knowing he's alive by the end. He could effectively end it with the same sentence (or, as it would be in a movie, impression) as Tolkien did.

Frodo was alive but taken by the enemy.

Anyway, as it was, they had so much to put into the RotK when it came about that they had to cut short Sam's struggle and sorrow at his death. That is one of the most dramatic and sad parts in the entire trilogy, and to cut it short to the point where even I hardly cried at the theater when I saw it is really pathetic. They had done it like it was supposed to have been done, in the TT, then they would have had time.

I think what PJ was hoping to capture with Shelob at the start of RotK was instant excitement and energy. Show how perilous Mordor is.

Shelob wasn't even part of Mordor. And next to that, she's not even at the beginning of the movie. At the beginning of their part in the movie, Frodo turns Sam off and sends him home like a dog.

Besides, the danger of Mordor wasn't really in getting caught by orcs, but dying of thirst and hunger and being caught by the eye...they did a good job with that, but I don't think that he needed Shelob to help with protraying the danger of Mordor.

[Balin999]

I agree with eomer. Shelob should have been in TTT.
But then, I think that the only acceptable of the three movies is FotR.
The unnecessary changes in TTT made me so angry that I wanted to leave the theatre when I first saw it.
Come on, Haldir in Helms Deep? And then he dies like in a bad western with Aragorn screaming "HAAAAAALDIIIIIIIIIIR" (imagine hearing that in slow-motion)

And then Faramir who is a much wiser person than his brother turns out to be a thread to Frodo.
It just sucks.

And then, as eomer said, the audience is left with gollum giving hints about Shelob.
And I agree, the part of Helms depp should have been shorter. and he could have left out that ridicolous Robin Hood scene of Legolas.
Ok I'll stop now...

Shelob for TTT!

[drigel]

i would have welcomed anything that would have freed up the space to put the Scouring back in RotK

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

O drigel, you are inviting a furious backlash by suggesting adding the Scouring. (I'm with you, though!)

Folwren brings up another point which I had forgotten: Sam's grief. In all honesty this could have been one of the saddest scenes in cinematic history. As it turned out, it was merely ok and ridiculously short.

I am slightly puzzled by mormegil's thoughts: that people might not like the 'Frodo-captured' ending for being too dramatic and intense. Well, was the boring 'Gollum-mutters' ending preferable? It was certainly an intensity-killer. I don't think it satisfied.

[Lalwendë]

I had thought that the Shelob episode worked quite well being moved to RotK. But reading what everyone's saying here is making me change my mind about that. It's true that the ending of TT was a little strange and subdued, and it would have made a wonderful ending to have left the non-reading audience thinking that Frodo was dead.

There would have been another benefit to it of course, and it may have made even more people go out and read the books.

[Kath]

I agree with you Eomer. When I first read TTT I was absolutely hooked by the ending. I was in the car at the time and bugged my father to speed all the way home so I could find out what happened next.

I never felt this sense of urgency or even desire to find out when I watched TTT and this is not just down to knowing anyway because I had some idea of the plot when I read the books first time anyway.

Putting Shelob and Frodo and Sam's separation in TTT might have made a pretty dull film actually exciting. The whole focus was on the happenings at Helm's Deep and then as a way to show that Frodo and Sam were in the film they put in that awful Faramir story (which I won't go into because I will rant about it for pages!).

As for a clifhanger, seeing a giant spider attack Frodo and then orcs carrying him off with poor Sam just having found out that the master he left to die is still alive and now in the hands of the enemy is in my opinion as far better and more tense cliffhanger than Gollums comments about a 'she'.

[Elianna]

Having the big huge climax of the movie be with Frodo and Sam, instead of with Aragorn et al. would have also reminded the viewers that the real quest is with Frodo, and that all that Aragorn is doing is being...

Legolas: A diversion!

Me: Yes, Lego, *pats his golden head* now go away.

Phillipa Boyens talks on the extras of the DVD about how you can't be so emotionally demanding on your audience, to have them sit through Helm's Deep and then have to go face Shelob too. But by moving Shelob to RotK, they do the same thing. You're all emotionally drained from Shelob, then go through all the Pelennor Fields, and when that climactic battle is final over, you think you can relax, but no, the next scene brings you back to Frodo, the one who's really important, who is still stuck in Cirith Ungol.

[Folwren]

Originially posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim:
Folwren brings up another point which I had forgotten: Sam's grief. In all honesty this could have been one of the saddest scenes in cinematic history. As it turned out, it was merely ok and ridiculously short.

That's my point. In the book, Tolkien takes up several pages protraying how sad he was and how completely devistated he became when Frodo died. I mean, Sam even suggested suicide to himself and that's pretty drastic. In the movie, they don't show any of that.

I agree with Elianna...they focussed far too much on Aragorn and Helm's Deep.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

To compensate, they had the terrible Faramir deal. Frodo and Sam had nothing to work with so they make Faramir into a supposedly huge threat: which is not exciting and the whole affair totally demeaned Faramir. What a woeful character he turned out to be. He barely came off better than that blonde guy who says:

"It is as the Lord Denethor predicted; long has he foreseen this doom!"

And let me tell you, that guy did not come off well.

O, and Helm's Deep was stretched out way too far. My mother was absolutely sick of it. Not everyone likes battles. Now, I agree that the battle should have been the centrepiece of the movie, but it should not have consumed the story like it did.

[The Saucepan Man]

It couldn't have worked from a timing point of view without moving a good portion of the beginning of RotK back to TTT.

As Frodo, Sam and Gollum are climbing the hidden staircase, the armies of Mordor are marching on Osgiliath, en route to Minas Tirith. So, Orthanc, Pippin and the Palantir and Gandalf and Pippin riding to Minas Tirith and meeting Denethor would all have needed to be added in to TTT.

It only works in the books because the two storylines are presented sequentially rather than concurrently. But to do that on screen would have been incredibly confusing for audiences and would not have worked at all.

And I might as well tack on my usual refrain on such questions: What's done is done. We have what I consider to be three amazing films. Either watch 'em and enjoy 'em or don't watch 'em at all.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'll never accept your rationality Sauce: Send Shelob back to TTT!!!

[The Only Real Estel]

At the risk of this post being filled with too many quote tags I plan on quoting a few things but mostly limiting myself to referring to things that have been said. Having said that, let me start off some quotes.

Originally posted by Eomer:

"O, but then The Return of the King would be weaker!"

Originally posted by Kitanna:

ROTK couldn't really be weak unless PJ really, really tired at it. With the Siege of Minas Tirith, the Ride of the Rohirrim, and the ulitmate destruction of the Ring I don't think ROTK would have been weaker if Shelob was in TTT.

Kitanna, I think Eomer's above quote that you replied to was directed more towards Frodo & Sam's part of RotK being more boring. Although you can add all the stuff in that everyone has mentioned, I don't think you can deny that it wouldn't be as exciting as Shelob.

Originally posted by Eomer:

What actually happened in the film of The Two Towers was this: Frodo and Sam stumbled through an achingly boring storyline with the pretend Faramir. A major reason Faramir is so bad in the film is because he had to appear as a threat to Frodo. And so they walk about a bit, go to Osgiliath, and end on the most disappointing cliffhanger possible: Gollum speaking to himself about how this mystery female could get the Ring for him.

*groan*

-and also-

Frodo and Sam had nothing to work with so they make Faramir into a supposedly huge threat: which is not exciting and the whole affair totally demeaned Faramir. What a woeful character he turned out to be.

To me, Faramir was bad in the theatrical version. Osgiliath was bad in the theatrical version. I was ticked & upset with the original version of the film, or at least any parts that contained Faramir, for quite sometime (I'm sure a lot of people here can attest to that ). But I think that the Extended Edition of Two Towers did a lot of good to Faramir's character, though I'm not about to say he couldn't still have been a lot better.

As for the 'most disappointing cliff-hanger possible,' I'm not to sure whether I agree with you there or not. I agree that Shelob could have been put into TTT (putting aside the timing element that SpM just mentioned) without too much trouble. Like Eomer said, it was Jackson's choice to have Helm's Deep be the 'be all & end all' of the film, & he could easily have scaled it down a bit to accomodate Shelob and a great ending. I think having Frodo "alive but taken by the enemy" and Sam either alone in Mordor or knocked out outside the gates (however you want to do it) would make a great ending. But I don't think that the current ending is the worst piece of filmmanship (<---I'll be darned if that's not a new word) ever.

At first I was greatly disappointed mainly because I found I wasn't going to get to see Shelob, but if you look at it from a non-book movie goers point of view, it's actually pretty foreboding. TTT ends with Sam's speech (which I liked) & Smeagol reverting back to Gollum, having made the decision to lead the hobbits into a trap in which Frodo & Sam would be killed & the Ring lost to Gollum again. We aren't clued in as to where this trap is, when it will be sprung, or who the heck this 'she' is. Being left in the dark about something big that's going to happen can generate a lot of suspense. I know quite a few people who went ahead & read the books because they couldn't stand to wait & find out who the 'she' was. I think the ending is at the very least ok.

I'm not 100% sure whether Shelob would've been better in TTT or not, but I am sure that she would've worked there, contrary to what Jackson & Boyens keep trying to tell us. And the ending would have been better in my opinion also.

[mormegil]

I am slightly puzzled by mormegil's thoughts: that people might not like the 'Frodo-captured' ending for being too dramatic and intense. Well, was the boring 'Gollum-mutters' ending preferable? It was certainly an intensity-killer. I don't think it satisfied.

Cinematically, it may be too much for an audience to handle. I mean to have another emotionally climax at the end of a movie would leave the audience confused. The movie needed to have a climax and then a bit of a winding down period. It just upsets the emotional balance of a movie to have that big an event at the end.

I am not saying that I agree entirely with everything in the movie but I don't see this as a major sticky point. I've never liked the Faramir in the movies but that's another thread I'm sure.

[Lhunardawen]

Now, now, Eomer...

While I agree with you that Shelob is better of being in TTT, that would destroy the uniformity that all three movies ended 'relaxed'. I mean in the movies there's nothing that would make you scream, "Hey! What happened? Don't end yet!" Anyone can wait for a year to know how the story goes after the breaking of the Fellowship, what would happen to Frodo and Sam and Gollum in Mordor and who 'she' is, or what the events after Helm's Deep will be. If TTT ended with such a cliffhanger, non-book-reading movie watchers might terrorize PJ into releasing RotK right away.

But then again, RotK became too emotionally climactic because of Shelob's placement there. Frankly, that movie was almost too much for me to handle if I haven't read the book. On the other hand, TTT was too dull due to Helm's Deep's exaggerated length. PJ could have reconciled the climactic Shelob scene and a 'relaxed' ending in TTT, but that would render the entire point of Shelob's appearance senseless. So, like SpM said, what's done is done.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I disagree with this talk of emotional balance. I say we end the film on the highest level.

Now, I'm not saying that Sam screams out "Oh no! THEY'VE CAPTURED MR FRODO!!!" and then a big THE END flashes up on screen. Clearly, you'd have your little Gandalf speech about the Ring being beyond their aid and Theoden et al nod wisely and then it cuts back to Samwise who has this horrified Uh oh! look and then the camera pans out to reveal Mordor in all its shadowy terror.

Now that would rock.

Why do we need the whole thing with Faramir going "Oh, now we understand each other Baggins!" (despite the situation being ridiculous) and then they walk off and talk about Samwise the Brave, after a terribly boring 'battle' for Osgiliath in which nothing interesting happens. The only thing that happens is some drunken catapult action. And no-one ever wanted to see that.

I understand the argument from time, but I would just say this: You can tell the story by the appendices' timeline or you can tell the story by the books. Shelob was in The Two Towers.

[Gurthang]

1. Putting Shelob in RotK made that movie long too long.

2. Taking her out of TTT made that movie boring.

She should have been in TTT.


BUT, just to be devil's advocate, I have to point out that the really cool Deagol-Smeagol intro would not have worked. With Frodo in Cirith Ungol and Sam headed that way, Gollum is nowhere near. It would not have made sense.

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

BUT, just to be devil's advocate, I have to point out that the really cool Deagol-Smeagol intro would not have worked.

So then you put it where they originally planned to put it: after Frodo calls him "Sméagol." Or would that make the movie too long? If we're shortening Helm's Deep, and putting Shelob's Liar in TTT, but not making it so much like it's a mini-horror flick, would that be too long? Maybe 2 hrs, and 15 mins, evening out TTT and RotK?

[Shelob]

" I'm not saying that Sam screams out "Oh no! THEY'VE CAPTURED MR FRODO!!!" and then a big THE END flashes up on screen." ~Eomer of the Rohirrim

Actually, I think that would have been an Awesome end...Entertaining in the least....



More to the point though...When The Two Towers came out I had been waiting for the Shelob scene (against all odds), once I realized it wouldn't be in TTT however I almost screamed. After another year of waiting and after finally seeing it in The Return of the King though I figured it did at least as well there as it would have in it's rightful place.

In TTT it would only have detracted from the Importance of The Battle of Helm's Deep. Given that the focus of the film was The Battle of Helm's Deep it would risk losing the balance and importance of the film. I'm not sure if that makes sense...
...Look at it like this:
You have the battle, seemingly "the battle to end all battles". The audience is now ready for the winding down of the movie, they've either been presented with a lot of new information (if they've not read the books) or are eagerly awaiting what they know is to come (if they have read the books). The Film begins to wind down, everyone is expecting this and so no one's really expecting anything to happen.
Now here's the choice they had, either you can leave it at this wound-down state, with a few hints at what is to come or you can leave them with a sudden, unexpected (in terms of action, for those who know the books Shelob should not be a suprise) Almost Death of Most Importance Person.

The first option, the one they went with, leaves no one suprised. Those unfamiliar with the books are left with the rather irksome "She" and those familiar with the book now have one thing more than they expected to look forward to. Yes the scene loses it's rightful place in TTT, but the main focus of the film (The Battle of Helm's Deep) doesn't lose anything by being overshadowed by the cliffhanger (I, personally, doubt the hints of "She" could overshadow an ant...they were really disappointing).

The second option, the one which more closely follows the books, risks overshadowing The Battle of Helm's Deep, as well as everything else which happened in the film. Those unfamiliar with the book leave worrying about Frodo and devote all their thought to that and those who are familiar with the books aren't likely to lose as much of the importance, but would probably have spent the next year playing with the minds of those unfamiliar with the books. The Final thought on everyone's mind as they left the theatre would not be "They won the battle, but have yet to win the war.", or something to that effect, but rather "Spider! Frodo! Ring! Orcs! BAD!", or something to that effect....

Looking at what the scene does to RotK...It gives those unfamiliar with the books something to fret about...It gives those of us familiar with the books the Shelob scene (FINALLY!...*cough* anyway, moving on)....It ensures that something happens to Frodo and Sam, y'know--before Gollum attacks them and Frodo decides to keep the Ring for himself, I know they have to sneak in amongst orcs but it's still not a lot, esp. compared to what happens to everyone else... Yes it ruins a chance for an amazing cliffhanger (either as an actual cliffhanger or one like Eomer's above), but TTT doesn't loose a whole lot and RotK gains a fair bit--it may not be a perfect trade but I think it's a fair one.


...and after all that defending of where it is, I really do agree with Eomer...I want Shelob in The Two Towers where she belongs.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Deagol-Smeagol intro would not have worked. With Frodo in Cirith Ungol and Sam headed that way, Gollum is nowhere near. It would not have made sense.

That scene was supposed to be in TTT to begin with, but it was changed and added to ROTK instead. Someone mentioned it in the ROTK commentary.

[Essex]

Most Tolkien book fans have moaned at one time or another about how the films are different to the books.

Jackson puts the Shelob scene in EXACTLY where it is chronologically in the books.

And now lots of people slag him off for actually following Tolkien's time line.

He can't win, whatever he does............

Now when I first heard that shelob wasn't in TT I was dismayed, and yes, the book has the greatest Cliffhanger in all of 20th Century literature, and I've mentioned this quite a few times in the last couple of years on this site. BUT listen to the extras on the ROTK dvd, and they explain how why they did this to fit in with Tolkien's timeline. In the book, Aragorn was fighting the forces at Pelagir, Theoden was in Drauadan Forest, and Minas Tirith was about to be besieged.

So Jackson was being FAITHFUL TO THE BOOKS. And he still gets a bad time. Oh well.

PS the only way having Shelob at the end of TT and remain faithful to the books is to edit the movies as Tolien wanted them - IE follow the NARRATION of the books. But this would be Movie suicide - it just would never have worked staying on one group of characters for half a movies length.

PPS the movies are all one long 12 hour marathon now that we have the DVDs anyway. Like the books, they're just one long story split up in 3 sections. Just like Tolkien was forced to split the book up into 3 chunks for it to be published.

PPPS - and yes, I know, if you want to be picky, in truth the LOTR is 6 books!!!!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Followed Tolkien's timeline; did not follow Tolkien's The Two Towers. It's a choice that had to be made and, yeah, we would moan either way.

The major negative consequence of the director's choice is that Frodo and Sam's story in The Two Towers movie is horrible.

[Bêthberry]

Dredging the harbour to build a better port, eh, Eomer?

I think you have to consider the placing of Shelob in terms of the movie concept PJ had for LotR: action/adventure/blockbuster flic. As a creative artist, he has the right to develop his own interpretation, as long as it is marketed as his version of events, of course.

The yardstick for placing Shelob then becomes where will her inclusion best appeal to the kind of audience which favours action/adventure/blockbuster flics.

I think it would just be *too* scary for the general members of this audience (where the XY chromosomes hold the majority--at least, it seems so to this minority XX member) to contemplate an ending with a female, loathesome as she is, to get the upper hand on our young hero. It is inconceivable that a female, even an evilly vile one, could come off with the big climax. Orcs carrying off Pippin and Merry are no threat to the masculinity of those youthful hobbits, but a female, well, PJ had enough to deal with representing Frodo's kind of heroism without inviting that kind of disasterous denouement.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Of course. That must be the answer.

[Elianna]

Am I the only one who, despite the first half of her name being "she" and meaning she, who doesn't usually remember that Shelob is a girl?

[Shelob]

You aren't alone Elianna, I do that too...though I've gotten noticeably better lately, like since January...