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Old 03-24-2003, 08:09 AM   #1
Lord Dickie
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Question Money !

Hello - New to this so not sure if this has been asked before, but......

Does anyone know what type of currency is used in Middle Earth, and is it different between races etc ??

Or do they just use gold and silver coins....?? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 03-24-2003, 08:40 AM   #2
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You know, this is an interesting question. A single currency for middle earth? The eriado, perhaps? Was there a gold standard, do we think?
I'm at a bit of a loss when it comes to getting a grip on Middle Earth economics. Inter-regional trading seems to be done by only by dwarves, and to a very limited extent by Mirkwood elves. I can only assume that most cultures were self-sufficient when it comes to food/clothes etc.
*sits back and waits to be sent to x number of threads on subject*
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Old 03-24-2003, 10:33 AM   #3
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Thanks for that - Talking of trade I might add that there may have been some trade going on between Isengard and The Shire, as Merry and Pippin end up smoking some Shire (West Farthing ?) Pipe Weed that they found at Isengard........in Flotsam and Jetsom chapter of TTT.
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Old 03-24-2003, 12:39 PM   #4
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I wouldn't reaally know....I have always gotten the impression that money is not used for trade, only gold, silver, and other goods. However, as I said before, I wouldn't really know.
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Old 03-24-2003, 12:54 PM   #5
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I think there were currencies in M-e, yet I don't think there was one for the whole of M-e. At the end of the Hobbit, Bilbo found that his belongings were sold at an auction (sp?), so that suggests that there was money in the Shire. About other parts I don't know about this, but I think that each region or kingdom had it's own currency, but if there were appointsments about value of these I don't know. I guess trading was an individual process... just try and get along with the other for your benefit.

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Old 03-24-2003, 12:57 PM   #6
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Pipe

Yeah....I forgot about the auction. But maybe they auctioned with items, not money?
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Old 03-24-2003, 02:22 PM   #7
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at several instances I think it's stated Saruman had bought pipeweed and that Gandalf probably had to buy this as well.But where did they get their money from?
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Old 03-24-2003, 06:27 PM   #8
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I imagine that there would be a fair amount of trade in ME, with the level of trade activity probably varying depending upon the safety of the trade routes, ie the level of orc, troll, dragon etc activity.

We know that there was trade between the Elves of Thranduil's realm and Lake Town at the time of the Hobbit. Prior to Smaug's appearance at Erebor, and following his death, Dwarves and the Men of Dale participated in this trade too. Also, there was no doubt trade between the Shire and other realms. Pipeweed was cultivated in the Shire, but pipe smoking does not appear to have been restricted to that land. For example, Gimli enjoys a good smoke at Isengard and is clearly no novice smoker, having had a pipe but lost it in Moria.

I doubt that these recorded instances of trade activity were isolated. It is in the nature of realms that, unless at war, they will trade. No doubt there was trade between Rohan and Gondor (in horses for example) and also between the separate provinces and towns of Gondor. Also, its unlikely that Rivendell was self-sufficient, and so it would probably have needed to trade with other realms. The only exception (amongst the "free peoples") was probably Lothlorien, which was an isolated and reclusive community (clearly, given its reputation, there was no trade between Lothlorien and Gondor or Rohan).

The fact that coffee was available in the Shire also suggests that there was some trade with realms further south, since coffee is a crop which grows only in tropical climes (although so does tobacco in our world, and yet it grew in the mild climate of the Shire in ME, so we cannot necessarily apply our own world view in these matters).

Of course, it does not follow from the existence of trade that any form of currency existed in ME. Goods could be bartered. But there is some evidence for the existence of currency. The auction involving Bilbo's furniture has been mentioned, and auctions tend to involve goods being exchanged for currency, rather than bartered for other goods. Also, the Trolls that Bilbo and the Dwarves encountered had a purse, the purpose of purses generally (although not exclusively) being to carry coinage, and their hidden horde included pots of gold coins.

I doubt that a society as complex as that of Gondor could function without some form of currency. And it seems that the Shire probably had some form of currency too. I hardly imagine, however, that there was any form of exchange rate between currencies of different realms. Possibly, there was a universal currency, perhaps consisting of gold, silver and copper coins, although that raises the question of where they were minted. Could anyone with access to the relevant precious metals and the necessary technology have minted coins which would be acceptable elsewhere in ME? It seems more likely to me that realms which operated on the basis of currency would develop their own currency, signifying the coinage as their own by impressing upon it the likeness of their ruler. I would therefore speculate that some (although not necessarily all) realms did have some form of currency of their own. However, it is likely that trade between different realms mostly took place by barter.
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Old 03-24-2003, 07:40 PM   #9
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1420!

Well said The Saucepan Man. I think that there were of course currencies in different kingdoms and by different races and then of course different regions. Of course there was trade also. I don't think however that there was a universal currency in Middle-earth. In cases like these I think that it is best to assume that they used metals as a way a money. Of course there would be coins, probably gold ones, silver ones, bronze, etc. And the most precious, gold, was worth the most of course. But what about mithril you ask? Well I believe that there were no mithril coins. I believe this because it was such a rare metal that no one would want to use it for currency. They would want to make something beautiful out of it, like a family heirloom or something. But it is also a hard metal, not soft like gold. So it would suit better being used for armor or weaponry, like the coat that Bilbo and later Frodo gets. The Saucepan Man i sright when talking about the exchange rate, I think. I really believe that there was none. It was probably right on the spot like settling on 14 gold coins for a chicken or something. But maybe someone else would buy a chicken for 27 gold coins. And if there is no exchange rate, then is it really money? Maybe trading would be more appropriate since you still are exchanging an item for another item, and it might work better if the item being the coins have no set value.

I think that this is something that Tolkien forgot to address. He pointed out that he has seen many major and minor perfections in his works. Maybe this is one of them, but is it major or minor? I myself would say major seeing as Tolkien might come down hard on himself for leaving out something as simple yet so big as currency. I might be wrong though. Maybe he saw it as simple or maybe he didn't even realized he forgot it at all, and maybe he never intended to have it in there. Whether or not, I think it might be better without it. Middle-earth might not be that enjoyable if it was too realistic, especially if we enjoy the escapism aspect; escaping reality only to enter another...now I just got myself confused, oh well. It's kind of good to have inperfections, having ME seem real is great, but not too real.
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Old 03-24-2003, 07:47 PM   #10
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I found a couple of old threads on this topic but definitely dead dead here and here. The main thing they bring up is a couple of mentions of pennies, so I think the answer is yes. I believe barter was still used alot too.

Now I've also found some things on Sindarin Dictionary two different coins apparently used in Gondor a mirian and a quarter of a mirian is a canath a silver coin.

[ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: Silmarien ]

[ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: Silmarien ]
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Old 03-24-2003, 09:05 PM   #11
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1420!

So I guess Tolkien didn't completely forget at least. Do you think that he never got to finishing.

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Old 03-25-2003, 03:39 AM   #12
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In our world,coins have been around since about 700BC. In the ancient and mediaeval world, coins were simply the value of the metal in them, so it didn't matter whose head was on the coin, it was valid in any country. I assume that was the system in middle earth.

We rarely hear of elves dealing in money, incidently. Jewels, goods, yes but not in coins. Elves also seem to have been able to more or less conjure things out of thin air. Lothlorien is a closed forest kingdom - where, for example, came the raw materials for the cloth with which they spun the elven cloaks?
I agree that this is something Tolkien didn't delve to deeply into. I don't think he was terribly interested in economics. I don't blame him at all. (Some of my work is in this area so I know just how dull it can be...)
Edit - actually, I've just thought of how they could have got the raw material. Linen is, I believe, made from wood-pulp. But anyway...

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Old 03-25-2003, 11:16 AM   #13
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ye.. elves don´t seem to need money. But I think that for example hobbits and men used "money". And having an auction where u sell items and get items seems sort of ridicolous
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Old 03-27-2003, 07:12 PM   #14
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Can anyone dig up the HoME reference for the Numenorean coins? I'm sure I read about the mirian and canath coins of Gondor there somewhere.

I'd imagine that the Numenoreans (or elves maybe?) introduced coinage to Middle Earth and that the other peoples derived their systems from this basis. For example, in Britain in pre-Roman times coins were minted which featured a horse-and-rider design which were local 'copies' of Macedonian coins from the time of Alexander the Great!
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Old 03-28-2003, 02:12 PM   #15
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it states in fotr that frodo bought bill,fernys pony in bree for i believe 13 silver pennies.anyone recall that?
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Old 03-28-2003, 02:21 PM   #16
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I recall it. And 13silver pennys for that horse was kind of expensive wasn´t it? I wonder how much a glass of milk would have cost...
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Old 03-28-2003, 02:36 PM   #17
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or something else
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Old 03-28-2003, 05:45 PM   #18
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Pipe

Quote:
it states in fotr that frodo bought bill,fernys pony in bree for i believe 13 silver pennies.anyone recall that?
Yeah! I totally forgot about that...shows how good a memory I have... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 03-30-2003, 01:30 PM   #19
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You´re not the only one with a bad memory [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
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Old 03-30-2003, 01:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
it states in fotr that frodo bought bill,fernys pony in bree for i believe 13 silver pennies.
So possibly, since silver pennies seem to be fairly high currency, perhaps they'd also use something like copper pennies, and gold coins would be worth a lot more.

They'd probably, in the most rural areas, use the barter system. i.e. I have a cow, Lord Dickie has chickens, so we don't "pay" for the milk/eggs, we just trade. It seems like a very "hobbity" sort of deal.
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Old 03-30-2003, 02:00 PM   #21
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Naah...I think they had money and used it. But it might be as you said.
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Old 03-30-2003, 03:26 PM   #22
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Hi dwarfwarrior! You might want to try actually pulling your books off the shelf, opening them up and looking up the passages. **mildly peeved at the spread of misinformation**

Frodo did not pay for Bill the Pony; Barliman Butterbur did.

Quote:
Bill Ferny's price was twelve silver pennies; and that was indeed at least three times the pony's value in those parts. It proved to be a bony, underfed, and dispirited animal; but it did not look like dying just yet. Mr. Butterbur paid for it himself, and offered Merry another eighteen pence as some compensation for the lost animals. He was an honest man, and well-off as things were reckoned in Bree; but thirty silver pennies was a sore blow to him, and being cheated by Bill Ferny made it harder to bear.

As a matter of fact he came out on the right side in the end. It turned out later than only one horse had been acutally stolen. The others had been driven off, or had bolted in terror, and were found wandering in different corners of the Bree-land. Merry’s ponies had escaped altogether, and eventually (having a good deal of sense) they made their way to the Downs in search of Fatty Lumpkin. So they came under the care of Tom Bombadil for a while, and were well-off. But when news of the events at Bree came to Tom’s ears, he sent them to Mr. Butterbur, who thus got five good beasts at a very fair price. They had to work harder in Bree, but Bob treated them well; so on the whole they were lucky: they missed a dark and dangerous journey. But they never came to Rivendell.
~~~
Welcome to the Barrow Downs, Lord Dickie! In future, please do a Search of the Books or Novices and Newcomers forums before beginning duplicate threads.

See the Novices and Newcomers thread Money in Middle-Earth.

Also M.E. Currency, which has links to other threads in Books concerning this topic.

[ April 04, 2003: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]
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Old 03-31-2003, 07:12 AM   #23
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but often you don´t have time to read through all those dusty old threads with 20pages. Shorter and newer ones are often better (my opinion only)
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