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Old 04-17-2019, 02:22 AM   #121
Urwen
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Come to think of it, that is an interesting theme for next discussion. Do you think us in the modern world are reincarnations/descendants of Tolkinese characters? If so, whom do you think you are reincarnation/descendant of?

My answer is in my previous post.
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:23 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Urwen View Post
Self-defense is still technically murder, despite being excusable.
I hate to be the guy who says, "Ackshually...." but I'm going to be him. My apologies.

Actually, self-defense isn't technically murder. It's a homicide

Homicide is simply a killing of one person by another. There is no implication of guilt or innocence applied to it, as people may be found innocent, such as in a lawful case of self-defense, or justifiable homicide.

Murder (and Manslaughter) are considered unlawful homicides. Murder must contain what's known as mens rea (Latin: "guilty mind"), also called "malice aforethought," which is the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing.

The killing of one person (or elf) by another in war, under the circumstances described by Tolkien vis-a-vis Maeglin, doesn't constitute murder and was a clear case of (lawful) self-defense.
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:55 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Andsigil View Post
I hate to be the guy who says, "Ackshually...." but I'm going to be him. My apologies.

Actually, self-defense isn't technically murder. It's a homicide

Homicide is simply a killing of one person by another. There is no implication of guilt or innocence applied to it, as people may be found innocent, such as in a lawful case of self-defense, or justifiable homicide.

Murder (and Manslaughter) are considered unlawful homicides. Murder must contain what's known as mens rea (Latin: "guilty mind"), also called "malice aforethought," which is the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing.

The killing of one person (or elf) by another in war, under the circumstances described by Tolkien vis-a-vis Maeglin, doesn't constitute murder and was a clear case of (lawful) self-defense.

So chucking people off cliffs is socially acceptable? Good to know.



I happen to have quite a number of people I'd love to throw off a cliff.


(Maedhros and Maeglin are literal cliff-hangers, aren't they?)
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:26 AM   #124
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So chucking people off cliffs is socially acceptable? Good to know.



I happen to have quite a number of people I'd love to throw off a cliff.


(Maedhros and Maeglin are literal cliff-hangers, aren't they?)
There is this thing; it’s called “context.” Your statement lacks it entirely, which is why I (futilely, it turns out) tried to give some.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:34 AM   #125
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Well, maybe I;m not past the whole 'defend my favorites until the end' phase like I thought I was.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:15 AM   #126
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All this talk of defense and murder got my mind running down certain pathways, and I just had to. So... this got a little long, I'm afraid.

~

The Trial of Tuor of Gondolin (House of the Wing)

For the Defense: Pengolodh of Gondolin (House of the Harp)
For the Prosecution: Urwen of Gondolin (House of the Mole)
Presiding: Cirdan, Lord of Balar, Steward to the High King

~~~~~

Charge the First: That in wedding Idril, and siring on her the child Earendil, Tuor did defy the laws of nature in joining the Elder and Younger children.

Witness for the prosecution - Celebrimbor of Nargothrond: The Eldar and the Edain were set apart even from the beginning; their fates in death are different. Yet, seeing as the marriage of the Eldar is deemed to last until the Last Days, saving that one partner choose to remain forever in the Halls of Awaiting, it is unright that a union should be formed that must needs be broken, all unwilling, on the death of the mortal spouse.

Witness for the defense - Elwing of Doriath: The Powers of Arda have expressed approval of such a union: that of Luthien of Doriath to Beren of Dorthonion. We may not suppose that the unique resolution of their case will by necessity be repeated; yet still we may presume that their acceptance applies to all such cases.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; the precedent applies.

~~~~~

Charge the Second: That in wedding Idril, Tuor did usurp the right of Maeglin, his elder in years and superior in the laws of the city, to her hand.

Witness for the prosecution - Eglamoth of Gondolin (House of the Heavenly Arch): Maeglin many a time presented his suit to Turgon the king, nor at any time was he told that he was forbidden further to pursue the hand of Idril.

Witness for the defense: Pengolodh of Gondolin: It has never been true that the hand of a maiden of the Noldor, even one of noble birth, lies with her father; the Eldar wed for love, not for rank and power. Nor has it ever been shown that two suitors may not compete for the same bride. Further, the wedding of Maeglin and Idril would have bound cousins of the first degree, which by long custom is forbidden among the Eldar.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; if there is fault, it lies in Turgon not informing Maeglin of the relevant custom forbidding the union.

~~~~~

Charge the Third: That in delving in secret a tunnel from the city of Gondolin towards the Cleft of Eagles, Tuor did defy the will of the High King, who forbade preparations for escape; and further, that in doing so without the aid of the House of the Mole, he did usurp the rights of Maeglin the Prince.

Witness for the prosecution - Idril of Gondolin (House of the King): It is true that the delvings were carried out in secret, to hide them from the eyes of Turgon and Maeglin both; and this was done by my advice.

Witness for the defense - Voronwe of Gondolin (House of the Wing): Tuor was sent to Gondolin by the Vala Ulmo, and charged with the preservation of its people against the wrack of Melkor; such charge from the Powers of Arda does override the command of the High King. The instruction to keep the delvings secret from Maeglin were given by Idril in her capacity as Seer, and it is presumed that such gifts of Foresight as she possesses are granted by said Powers. Indeed, such was shown when Turgon himself, led by vision from Ulmo, did remove himself from the authority of the High King his father, and prepare in secret the very city Gondolin.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; the precedent of Turgon applies.

~~~~~

Charge the Fourth: That in gathering about himself a body of armed men, and marking them with his symbol, Tuor did usurp the right of the king to determine the bearing of arms; and that in instructing the people of that city to obey Tuor should Turgon be slain, he did usurp the rights of Maeglin the Prince.

Witness for the prosecution - Enerdhil of Gondolin (House of the Hammer of Wrath): All the Houses of Gondolin were named as such by the king; and upon the slaying of his parents, Maeglin was proclaimed a Prince of the blood, and presumed by all to be King's Heir in Gondolin.

Witness for the defense - Hendor of Gondolin (House of the King): The assent of Turgon was sought before ever the House of the Wing was assembled, and under his command were they drawn up to the defense of the city alongside the other houses; and in the attempted slaying of Earendil, Maeglin did forefeit his rights as a prince.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty to the first part, by assent of Turgon. Guilty to the second part, for Maeglin's treachery had not yet become known; however, inasmuch as the visions of Idril forewarned of danger at Maeglin's hand, no sentence to be passed upon Tuor.

~~~~~

Charge the Fifth: That in assailing Maeglin during the battle in Gondolin, Tuor did unlawfully turn his hand against an ally and superior during a time of war; and that this does constitute treason against the City of Gondolin.

Witness for the prosecution - Urwen of Gondolin: As previously shown, Maeglin was proclaimed Prince of Gondolin. Those who hold command may ofttimes undertake actions which seem foolhardy or controversial to their followers, as Fingon's rescue of Maedhros, Finrod's stealth mission to Tol-in-Gaurhoth, &c. By attacking Maeglin when he had not openly disavowed his title as Prince, Tuor did act unlawfully and treacherously.

Witness for the defense - Galadriel of Doriath: Seldom do the Free Peoples war against each other or purpose to harm each other; yet when they do so it is the duty of all to stand against them. The Teleri of Alqualonde are lauded for their defense against House Feanor; the Leap of Beren Erchamion against Curufin is renowned; and the defense of Thingol against the treachery of Nogrod, though futile, is deemed righteous. In the same way, the assault of Maeglin upon Idril and Earendil must be viewed as forfeiture of his loyalty to them and to the city; and in that light was Tuor not only entitled but duty-bound to intervene on their behalf.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; all have the duty to protect innocents against kinslayers.

~~~~~

Charge the Sixth: That in casting Maeglin from the walls of Gondolin, Tuor did unfairly condemn him to death, this constituting murder most unlawful.

Witness for the prosecution - Galdor of Gondolin (House of the Tree): The right of life and death to the people of Gondolin lies in the hands of the king, except where appointed otherwise by him. So too, in Gondolin as elsewhere, the law that surrender offered by even the worst of enemies must be accepted. As it is told that Maeglin's arm was broken ere he was cast over the walls, it might be presumed that he would have given his surrender if offered the chance.

Witness for the defence - Tuor of Gondolin: In war a warrior must needs attempt to slay his foe; this has been so since the First Battle, when Denethor of the Nandor did fight to the death against the creatures of Morgoth. So too, though Maeglin had been disarmed of his dagger, he bore still the black sword Anguirel at his side; and, knowing the hardiness of the Elves, I had no cause to believe that a simple break of one arm would lead to his surrender. Recalling that I, a mortal Man, was far weaker in bodily strength than an Elda, I must needs end the battle swiftly, to ensure the protection of my house, as has been granted in the previous judgement. To withdraw would be to allow Maeglin space to draw his blade; yet in his imbalance I had a fleeting opportunity to lift him from his feet. How, then, might I use this advantage to render him unable to assault us further? With the disparity in our strength and hardiness known, there was but one way: to cast him over the edge, even as he had sought to do to Earendil.

Judgement of Cirdan: Seeing as the combat itself has been deemed lawful, the death of one participant cannot be considered murder. The battle began at the instigation of Maeglin; it therefore behooved Tuor to bring it to an end by whatever means he might.

All charges having been heard, the trial was adjourned.

~~~~~

I apologise for taking you name in vain, Urwen; I needed a Maeglin partisan to present the case, and there kind of aren't any named. A name for the Maia of the Sun seems not inappropriate for a non-combatant member of the House of the Mole.

Obviously no such trial took place, and I'm pretty sure Galadriel, at least, was elsewhere at the time. But if it had, I think this is about how it would have shaken out.

The early charges were added by me - they're valid ones to make, even if Cirdan deems Tuor not guilty. I also didn't manage to work into Galadriel's rant the fact that Tuor was also considered a Prince of Gondolin, and so co-equal with Maeglin, rather than his inferior; she had another point she wanted to make.

hS
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:19 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
All this talk of defense and murder got my mind running down certain pathways, and I just had to. So... this got a little long, I'm afraid.

~

The Trial of Tuor of Gondolin (House of the Wing)

For the Defense: Pengolodh of Gondolin (House of the Harp)
For the Prosecution: Urwen of Gondolin (House of the Mole)
Presiding: Cirdan, Lord of Balar, Steward to the High King

~~~~~

Charge the First: That in wedding Idril, and siring on her the child Earendil, Tuor did defy the laws of nature in joining the Elder and Younger children.

Witness for the prosecution - Celebrimbor of Nargothrond: The Eldar and the Edain were set apart even from the beginning; their fates in death are different. Yet, seeing as the marriage of the Eldar is deemed to last until the Last Days, saving that one partner choose to remain forever in the Halls of Awaiting, it is unright that a union should be formed that must needs be broken, all unwilling, on the death of the mortal spouse.

Witness for the defense - Elwing of Doriath: The Powers of Arda have expressed approval of such a union: that of Luthien of Doriath to Beren of Dorthonion. We may not suppose that the unique resolution of their case will by necessity be repeated; yet still we may presume that their acceptance applies to all such cases.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; the precedent applies.

~~~~~

Charge the Second: That in wedding Idril, Tuor did usurp the right of Maeglin, his elder in years and superior in the laws of the city, to her hand.

Witness for the prosecution - Eglamoth of Gondolin (House of the Heavenly Arch): Maeglin many a time presented his suit to Turgon the king, nor at any time was he told that he was forbidden further to pursue the hand of Idril.

Witness for the defense: Pengolodh of Gondolin: It has never been true that the hand of a maiden of the Noldor, even one of noble birth, lies with her father; the Eldar wed for love, not for rank and power. Nor has it ever been shown that two suitors may not compete for the same bride. Further, the wedding of Maeglin and Idril would have bound cousins of the first degree, which by long custom is forbidden among the Eldar.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; if there is fault, it lies in Turgon not informing Maeglin of the relevant custom forbidding the union.

~~~~~

Charge the Third: That in delving in secret a tunnel from the city of Gondolin towards the Cleft of Eagles, Tuor did defy the will of the High King, who forbade preparations for escape; and further, that in doing so without the aid of the House of the Mole, he did usurp the rights of Maeglin the Prince.

Witness for the prosecution - Idril of Gondolin (House of the King): It is true that the delvings were carried out in secret, to hide them from the eyes of Turgon and Maeglin both; and this was done by my advice.

Witness for the defense - Voronwe of Gondolin (House of the Wing): Tuor was sent to Gondolin by the Vala Ulmo, and charged with the preservation of its people against the wrack of Melkor; such charge from the Powers of Arda does override the command of the High King. The instruction to keep the delvings secret from Maeglin were given by Idril in her capacity as Seer, and it is presumed that such gifts of Foresight as she possesses are granted by said Powers. Indeed, such was shown when Turgon himself, led by vision from Ulmo, did remove himself from the authority of the High King his father, and prepare in secret the very city Gondolin.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; the precedent of Turgon applies.

~~~~~

Charge the Fourth: That in gathering about himself a body of armed men, and marking them with his symbol, Tuor did usurp the right of the king to determine the bearing of arms; and that in instructing the people of that city to obey Tuor should Turgon be slain, he did usurp the rights of Maeglin the Prince.

Witness for the prosecution - Enerdhil of Gondolin (House of the Hammer of Wrath): All the Houses of Gondolin were named as such by the king; and upon the slaying of his parents, Maeglin was proclaimed a Prince of the blood, and presumed by all to be King's Heir in Gondolin.

Witness for the defense - Hendor of Gondolin (House of the King): The assent of Turgon was sought before ever the House of the Wing was assembled, and under his command were they drawn up to the defense of the city alongside the other houses; and in the attempted slaying of Earendil, Maeglin did forefeit his rights as a prince.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty to the first part, by assent of Turgon. Guilty to the second part, for Maeglin's treachery had not yet become known; however, inasmuch as the visions of Idril forewarned of danger at Maeglin's hand, no sentence to be passed upon Tuor.

~~~~~

Charge the Fifth: That in assailing Maeglin during the battle in Gondolin, Tuor did unlawfully turn his hand against an ally and superior during a time of war; and that this does constitute treason against the City of Gondolin.

Witness for the prosecution - Urwen of Gondolin: As previously shown, Maeglin was proclaimed Prince of Gondolin. Those who hold command may ofttimes undertake actions which seem foolhardy or controversial to their followers, as Fingon's rescue of Maedhros, Finrod's stealth mission to Tol-in-Gaurhoth, &c. By attacking Maeglin when he had not openly disavowed his title as Prince, Tuor did act unlawfully and treacherously.

Witness for the defense - Galadriel of Doriath: Seldom do the Free Peoples war against each other or purpose to harm each other; yet when they do so it is the duty of all to stand against them. The Teleri of Alqualonde are lauded for their defense against House Feanor; the Leap of Beren Erchamion against Curufin is renowned; and the defense of Thingol against the treachery of Nogrod, though futile, is deemed righteous. In the same way, the assault of Maeglin upon Idril and Earendil must be viewed as forfeiture of his loyalty to them and to the city; and in that light was Tuor not only entitled but duty-bound to intervene on their behalf.

Judgement of Cirdan: Not guilty; all have the duty to protect innocents against kinslayers.

~~~~~

Charge the Sixth: That in casting Maeglin from the walls of Gondolin, Tuor did unfairly condemn him to death, this constituting murder most unlawful.

Witness for the prosecution - Galdor of Gondolin (House of the Tree): The right of life and death to the people of Gondolin lies in the hands of the king, except where appointed otherwise by him. So too, in Gondolin as elsewhere, the law that surrender offered by even the worst of enemies must be accepted. As it is told that Maeglin's arm was broken ere he was cast over the walls, it might be presumed that he would have given his surrender if offered the chance.

Witness for the defence - Tuor of Gondolin: In war a warrior must needs attempt to slay his foe; this has been so since the First Battle, when Denethor of the Nandor did fight to the death against the creatures of Morgoth. So too, though Maeglin had been disarmed of his dagger, he bore still the black sword Anguirel at his side; and, knowing the hardiness of the Elves, I had no cause to believe that a simple break of one arm would lead to his surrender. Recalling that I, a mortal Man, was far weaker in bodily strength than an Elda, I must needs end the battle swiftly, to ensure the protection of my house, as has been granted in the previous judgement. To withdraw would be to allow Maeglin space to draw his blade; yet in his imbalance I had a fleeting opportunity to lift him from his feet. How, then, might I use this advantage to render him unable to assault us further? With the disparity in our strength and hardiness known, there was but one way: to cast him over the edge, even as he had sought to do to Earendil.

Judgement of Cirdan: Seeing as the combat itself has been deemed lawful, the death of one participant cannot be considered murder. The battle began at the instigation of Maeglin; it therefore behooved Tuor to bring it to an end by whatever means he might.

All charges having been heard, the trial was adjourned.

~~~~~

I apologise for taking you name in vain, Urwen; I needed a Maeglin partisan to present the case, and there kind of aren't any named. A name for the Maia of the Sun seems not inappropriate for a non-combatant member of the House of the Mole.

Obviously no such trial took place, and I'm pretty sure Galadriel, at least, was elsewhere at the time. But if it had, I think this is about how it would have shaken out.

The early charges were added by me - they're valid ones to make, even if Cirdan deems Tuor not guilty. I also didn't manage to work into Galadriel's rant the fact that Tuor was also considered a Prince of Gondolin, and so co-equal with Maeglin, rather than his inferior; she had another point she wanted to make.

hS

I wonder if you could make a similar thing for the actual culprit, as per canon?
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:28 AM   #128
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Also, I couldn't help but write


And they won't call me one of their own
They will know me as nothing but a traitor
I will perish, though the fault is mine alone
They'll know me as Maeglin.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:37 AM   #129
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I wonder if you could make a similar thing for the actual culprit, as per canon?
What, a Trial of Maeglin? Probably (though not today - that was a good hour's work!), but I'm not sure what defence there is for 'I tried to stab a small boy because I saw his dad coming to get me'.

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Also, I couldn't help but write

And they won't call me one of their own
They will know me as nothing but a traitor
I will perish, though the fault is mine alone
They'll know me as Maeglin.
... are you filking Heather Dale, here? I'd assume not, she's pretty niche, but... if not, are you referencing something, or just writing poetry (which is fine!)?

hS
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:50 AM   #130
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Maeglin was a rat. End of. No excuses, and he got what was coming to him.

He might - might - have betrayed Gondolin because he was tortured, but the whole infanticide-and-rape thing was on him, solely.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:59 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
What, a Trial of Maeglin? Probably (though not today - that was a good hour's work!), but I'm not sure what defence there is for 'I tried to stab a small boy because I saw his dad coming to get me'.



... are you filking Heather Dale, here? I'd assume not, she's pretty niche, but... if not, are you referencing something, or just writing poetry (which is fine!)?

hS

Yeah, I couldn't resist.
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:03 PM   #132
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Nonetheless, I am trying to change the subject here, and you keep tempting me not to with your responses. Well, I am ending that.


I'd appreciate if you give your answers to this question too.


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Come to think of it, that is an interesting theme for next discussion. Do you think us in the modern world are reincarnations/descendants of Tolkinese characters? If so, whom do you think you are reincarnation/descendant of?

My answer is in my previous post.
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:55 PM   #133
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Also, I think Namo might have had hots for Feanor, pun intended.


Exhibit A: Namo doomed House of Feanor to die. Elves go to Halls of Mandos when they die.
Exhibit B: Feanor died first, before his body or his spirit could be corrupted by Morgoth. Namo wanted him alive.
Exhibit C: Feanor probably stayed there for a long time, maybe even forever, because Namo wanted to have him around for as long as possible.
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Old 04-17-2019, 06:35 PM   #134
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As to your first question, I couldn't say. I don't feel pulled to any one person or family more so than others. I would probably be a Man though - I don't feel particularly hobbitish or Dwarvish, and probably more Mannish than Elvish. Of course I could also be an orc, but I wouldn't reveal that now, would I?

But as for the second post:

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Also, I think Namo might have had hots for Feanor, pun intended.
Jokes being jokes, but seriously I think Namo had the least admiration and respect for Feanor among the Valar and possibly the Elves too. He's the kind that cuts through to the intent in the soul without being distracted by flashy achievements. And I don't think Mandos was very impressed with Feanor's soul - though he had a very powerful and charismatic character. Or maybe it was because of the combination of a powerful will force and a tendency for causing wreckage and making misguided choices that Mandos would not let him out.

Feanor is just waaay too easily ruled by passion. It's not always selfish, he suffers from it too, but it's often misdirected. He gets too heated and not heated enough, too attached and not attached at all. His creations end up meaning more to him than fellow people, and it's not something he intended or benefited from. Had his passion been channeled slightly differently things might not have gone the way they have.
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Old 04-17-2019, 07:32 PM   #135
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On an unrelated note, the Downs' activity is doing me a lot of good. Form's CbC posts inspired an out-of-order LOTR reread, now this thread inspired a COH reread. I haven't read any First Age stuff for years, it's high time! And Form, if you're reading this, thanks for taking us through in CbC style. It inspired some great discussion and rereads. I would rep you, but apparently I repped everyone who is currently active on the Downs too recently.

On another unrelated note, as I read the first pages of COH I realized that the Houses of Men married highborn people from other Houses. How much of it do you think is marriage for love, and how much is an obligation to marry into a certain status? Does politics have a role in the making of the marriages?
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Old 04-18-2019, 02:48 AM   #136
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On an unrelated note, the Downs' activity is doing me a lot of good. Form's CbC posts inspired an out-of-order LOTR reread, now this thread inspired a COH reread. I haven't read any First Age stuff for years, it's high time! And Form, if you're reading this, thanks for taking us through in CbC style. It inspired some great discussion and rereads. I would rep you, but apparently I repped everyone who is currently active on the Downs too recently.

On another unrelated note, as I read the first pages of COH I realized that the Houses of Men married highborn people from other Houses. How much of it do you think is marriage for love, and how much is an obligation to marry into a certain status? Does politics have a role in the making of the marriages?

Speaking of marriages, I think that had certain events not happened, we would have had five Elf/Man marriages, rather than the four we currently have.
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Old 04-18-2019, 03:02 AM   #137
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Come to think of it, that is an interesting theme for next discussion. Do you think us in the modern world are reincarnations/descendants of Tolkinese characters? If so, whom do you think you are reincarnation/descendant of?

My answer is in my previous post.
Well, obviously I'm a Noldo of Aman who journeyed with Finrod to Middle-earth, got killed in the Bragollach, and wound up coming back over here once I was let out of Mandos. That aside, while the canon allows for reincarnation of Dwarven kings (Durin, at least), and some versions allow for elves to be 'reborn in their children [read: descendents?]' rather than just rehoused, I feel like the most coherent version of Middle-earth canon don't include (non-Dwarvish) reincarnation.

As for descendents... let's play Middle-earth Genealogical Correlations!

Lining up the maps of Middle-earth and Europe has never been easy, but they generally place Gondor somewhere down on the Mediterranean, with Mordor falling in the mountainous regions around Romania and Serbia. If you want to claim descent from Aragorn, you'd better have Italian heritage! (Which, admittedly, most of Europe does, because Romans.) (It doesn't seem like the restored Arnor lasted long enough to make a significant impact on the local population makeup.)

The Misty Mountains probably fall somewhere in Germany (which, you'll note, is where Mirkwood - sorry, the Black Forest - is still found). If your ancestors are from east of there, they're Northmen - descendents of the ancestors of the Rohirrim, or the people of Dale. The Gondorians believed the Northmen were related to the Third House of the Edain. This, basically, is where blond/es come from. Some of their line wound up further south, on the north slopes of the White Mountains, as Rohan - it seems probable that this means the Alps, so you're looking at south Germany, Austria, Switzerland.

France, Spain, Portugal, and Britain are the homes of the Dunlendings and their kin - descendents of the Second House of the Edain. This is where the folk of Bree came from. In the former three areas this is still the dominant strain; in Britain it's been leavened with a good dose of invading Germans - Northmen. (I'm talking about the Anglo-Saxons here, not anything more recent.)

The Sea of Rhun seems to fall somewhere in western Russia; that means anyone east of there is from Sauron's old domains in the east (usually just called Rhun). Khand would be Turkey and points south/eastward, and Harad would be Africa. (Pretty obvious, but for completeness.)

For the non-Mannish races... you'd expect Dwarvish heritage, if any, to crop up from Germany (the Misty Mountains) to the Baltic (the Iron Hills), with a possible outcrop in Ireland (the Blue Mountains). But you wouldn't see much of it - they keep to themselves, and there's no hints at any interbreeding.

Elvish heritage, at least more recent than Aragorn, would likely come from Mirkwood. That means Germany again. There's a brief period when you might get elvish mingling in Ireland (Mithlond), but it's not very likely.

Orcs? We know it's possible; Saruman seems to have bred them. You'd be tempted to look down in Mordor, but it seems probably the liberated slaves would have got quite the taboo in place about that. More likely, maybe, is Germany again, reaching up into Scandinavia and the Grey Mountains.

And Hobbits? Well, we know where they live - "the North-West of the Old World, east of the Sea". That's Britain.

What does this mean for me, personally? It means I'm probably of mixed Northman/Breefolk descent; there's no real indications of Roman-Gondorian in my family tree. There could be a Hobbitish strain somewhere - I have fuzzy feet, and at least I'm not tall - but nothing more exotic. My most notable ancestor would probably be Vidugavia, King of Rhovanion (T.A. 1250); his line led to the kings of Rohan, and a royal line that long is liable to worm its way into every family tree eventually.

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On an unrelated note, the Downs' activity is doing me a lot of good. Form's CbC posts inspired an out-of-order LOTR reread, now this thread inspired a COH reread. I haven't read any First Age stuff for years, it's high time! And Form, if you're reading this, thanks for taking us through in CbC style. It inspired some great discussion and rereads. I would rep you, but apparently I repped everyone who is currently active on the Downs too recently.
I agree! I've been pulling books down left right and centre, it's been great.

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On another unrelated note, as I read the first pages of COH I realized that the Houses of Men married highborn people from other Houses. How much of it do you think is marriage for love, and how much is an obligation to marry into a certain status? Does politics have a role in the making of the marriages?
It wouldn't surprise me in the least. We know the elves didn't do political marriages, but even among the Men closest to them, that doesn't necessarily hold true.

On the flip side, it's noted that Hurin and Huor were raised in Brethil, so apparently there's a whole fostering system going on behind the scenes. It's quite likely that marriage to members of the house which fostered you is encouraged, even if not required. (Morwen and Rian seem likely to have ended up fostered by Galdor; they would actually have met their future husbands when the evacuation of Dorthonion passed through Brethil, then re-met them when they returned from Gondolin. I imagine a certain level of 'haven't we done this before?', as the foster-daughters of the House head out to greet the ones returning unlooked-for from war...)

But on the flip-flip-side... there are six Lords among the Three Houses for whom we can positively state the heritage of their wives; Malach married one of his own people, and Barahir (who was never meant to rule) did too (though Emeldir was a granddaughter of the House of Hador). The other four - Galdor, Hurin, Haldir, and Handir - all married someone from another House. That's pretty long odds if it wasn't at least partly arranged.

On the flip-flip-flip-side, how easy is it for the child of an absolute ruler to find a spouse among their subjects? There's going to be a lot of unhealthy power dynamics at play if they try.

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Speaking of marriages, I think that had certain events not happened, we would have had five Elf/Man marriages, rather than the four we currently have.
Aegnor and Andreth? (I see you're still not counting Dior and Nimloth... ^_^)

hS
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Old 04-18-2019, 03:36 AM   #138
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No, I meant Turin and Nellas.
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Old 04-18-2019, 04:39 AM   #139
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And if we go with Regions alone, I am probably affiliated with Mordor.
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:17 AM   #140
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Come to think of it, that is an interesting theme for next discussion. Do you think us in the modern world are reincarnations/descendants of Tolkinese characters? If so, whom do you think you are reincarnation/descendant of?
Starting all the way back with some geocities website, every, single test I've ever taken on the subject of "What kind of Tolkien character are you?" has given me the result of:

Dwarf
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:55 AM   #141
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And if we go with Regions alone, I am probably affiliated with Mordor.
Ah, a descendent of the slaves of Nurn! Held captive by Sauron for centuries or more, freed by King Elessar and given the rule of the land. Not an ignoble heritage at all.

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No, I meant Turin and Nellas.
Or Turin and Finduilas? He certainly seems to have had a way with elven maidens...

My memory is that he never really noticed Nellas once he was out of childhood, and she wasn't the sort to put herself forward (so to speak). Finduilas, on the other hand, wasn't afraid of expressing herself, and I think Turin felt the same way. If he hadn't been simultaneously too spooked by the thought of Morgoth finding out his name, and obsessed with breaking Nargothrond's very effective cover of secrecy, they could have hit it off very well. Imagine the meeting in the Havens not just of Elwing and Earendil, but of... let's say Edheladan, son of Turin and nephew to the High King (if we take Gil-Galad as son of Orodreth). Exciting!

hS
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:58 AM   #142
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No, I meant Turin and Nellas.
I thought you were talking about Finduilas. *shrugs* There are many possibilities if things didn't happen the way they did.

If we go geographically, I am a daughter of Rhun. With some ancestry from south of Khand.
Mind you, most Eurasians by descent have at least some ancestry from the far Eastern Rhun, thanks ro Ghengis.
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Old 04-18-2019, 06:13 AM   #143
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Ah, a descendent of the slaves of Nurn! Held captive by Sauron for centuries or more, freed by King Elessar and given the rule of the land. Not an ignoble heritage at all.



Or Turin and Finduilas? He certainly seems to have had a way with elven maidens...

My memory is that he never really noticed Nellas once he was out of childhood, and she wasn't the sort to put herself forward (so to speak). Finduilas, on the other hand, wasn't afraid of expressing herself, and I think Turin felt the same way. If he hadn't been simultaneously too spooked by the thought of Morgoth finding out his name, and obsessed with breaking Nargothrond's very effective cover of secrecy, they could have hit it off very well. Imagine the meeting in the Havens not just of Elwing and Earendil, but of... let's say Edheladan, son of Turin and nephew to the High King (if we take Gil-Galad as son of Orodreth). Exciting!

hS

I wouldn't oppose either of those couples.


It would be interesting for sure. Turin, heir of Nargothrond, via marriage. Tuor, heir of Gondolin, via marriage. And Beren, heir of Doriath, via marriage.


All three of big mortal heroes of Silm could have inherited each of the three greatest Elven realms at the time, if it weren't for that pesky Curse of Morgoth. How sad....
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Old 04-18-2019, 06:46 AM   #144
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I wouldn't oppose either of those couples.


It would be interesting for sure. Turin, heir of Nargothrond, via marriage. Tuor, heir of Gondolin, via marriage. And Beren, heir of Doriath, via marriage.


All three of big mortal heroes of Silm could have inherited each of the three greatest Elven realms at the time, if it weren't for that pesky Curse of Morgoth. How sad....
... and in at least two of those cases, their wives would be the power behind the throne.

Oh, Tuor might look all strong and tough, but Idril is a Seer; you know she's going to be calling the shots. And Luthien - well, would you argue with her?!

I'm not sure about Turin and Finduilas; someone who's read The Children of Hurin more recently than me would probably have a better grasp on her. But Turin is kind of a terrible leader in the long term (see: literally everywhere he goes), so I'd hope he'd at least listen to what the woman who's been living there 400+ years has to say.

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Old 04-18-2019, 06:53 AM   #145
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... and in at least two of those cases, their wives would be the power behind the throne.

Oh, Tuor might look all strong and tough, but Idril is a Seer; you know she's going to be calling the shots. And Luthien - well, would you argue with her?!

I'm not sure about Turin and Finduilas; someone who's read The Children of Hurin more recently than me would probably have a better grasp on her. But Turin is kind of a terrible leader in the long term (see: literally everywhere he goes), so I'd hope he'd at least listen to what the woman who's been living there 400+ years has to say.

hS

That's the idea.



I believe that the Curse is responsible for his actions, rather than the other way around.
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Old 04-18-2019, 07:08 AM   #146
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I believe that the Curse is responsible for his actions, rather than the other way around.
If the Curse is the sole reason for Turin's misfortune, then he would never have left Doriath, so you'd be back to Nellas.

I see Turin's path as one of bad decisions which other people might get lucky and avoid the consequences of, but which he will always be hit by. A prisoner who wakes up to find someone leaning over them with a sword might attack, or might recognise that the Orcs wouldn't kill them quietly in the night; only for Turin would the attack always be both successful and lethal. A new Captain of Nargothrond might take the city on an all-out attack, or might trust in the secrecy that has served it so well; only for Turin would breaking that secrecy necessarily lead to total destruction. &c &c.

But when Turin makes decent decisions, things don't go wrong. Rescuing Nienor was a good decision, and led to a period of peace (one of the few he had). Even marrying her didn't actually lead to any negative consequences, though it potentially would have later on. Attacking Glaurung was extraordinarily successful - but then he decided to approach and taunt a mind-controlling Worm that wasn't actually dead, to recover an actually Cursed sword. That led directly to his death, Nienor's, and that of the Lord of the Haladin.

hS
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Old 04-18-2019, 07:58 AM   #147
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If the Curse is the sole reason for Turin's misfortune, then he would never have left Doriath, so you'd be back to Nellas.

I see Turin's path as one of bad decisions which other people might get lucky and avoid the consequences of, but which he will always be hit by. A prisoner who wakes up to find someone leaning over them with a sword might attack, or might recognise that the Orcs wouldn't kill them quietly in the night; only for Turin would the attack always be both successful and lethal. A new Captain of Nargothrond might take the city on an all-out attack, or might trust in the secrecy that has served it so well; only for Turin would breaking that secrecy necessarily lead to total destruction. &c &c.

But when Turin makes decent decisions, things don't go wrong. Rescuing Nienor was a good decision, and led to a period of peace (one of the few he had). Even marrying her didn't actually lead to any negative consequences, though it potentially would have later on. Attacking Glaurung was extraordinarily successful - but then he decided to approach and taunt a mind-controlling Worm that wasn't actually dead, to recover an actually Cursed sword. That led directly to his death, Nienor's, and that of the Lord of the Haladin.

hS
I agree very much with your interpretation of the Curse, but I would argue that there is no good choice for Turin - or very few. He tries to save a woman from rape (good, right?), ends up killing his captain (maybe not much of a loss, but still bad). He rescues Niniel (good, who would leave a woman in that state?), but marries his sister (bad! - and she would have remembered anyways when Glaurung died, regardless of how he died, I think that's implied in the text).

I think Turin's fate is also in part due to his inability to keep his head down; he cannot be a lesser man than he is. He tries to start fresh time and time again, but he cannot be less than what he can. Did he have a position or an honour that he didn't deserve? No. He really deserved all, he was that good, and he couldn't suppress the effort in himself. All he had to do was be second best, settle down, let someone else make the calls. But he had to fight to his full potential, had to live to his full potential, take charge of his own life - Master his Fate, be the one who makes the calls of his life rather than letting it flow where it would by the choices of other men. Only with the Curse, as you said, do all your efforts - which are good efforts! - turn everything around them sour. Turin's choices and behaviours aren't always great, but they often make a lot of sense in the context of what he knows. There are many other people who also aren't your perfect goody-two-shoes, but no one is as unlucky as Turin.



I'll tell you about Finduilas when I get to that chapter in COH.
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:19 AM   #148
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I agree very much with your interpretation of the Curse, but I would argue that there is no good choice for Turin - or very few. He tries to save a woman from rape (good, right?), ends up killing his captain (maybe not much of a loss, but still bad). He rescues Niniel (good, who would leave a woman in that state?), but marries his sister (bad! - and she would have remembered anyways when Glaurung died, regardless of how he died, I think that's implied in the text).
I deliberately didn't talk about his bandits, because... well... he made the decision to throw in with a group of outlaws. And that's not outlaw like 'Beren was an outlaw, being hunted by the local power, namely Sauron' - it's outlaw like 'let's rob, rape, and ruin the local humans for our own benefit'. Remember their response to Mim, which is to shoot (to kill!) at him and his sons, then take over their house? It's nice that he tried to lead them away from that, but the whole thing was one long string of bad decisions. (The wiki also suggests that Turin wouldn't have killed Forweg had he known it was him, so, y'know, don't give him too much credit.)

As for Niniel... when someone comes to you with literally no memory of anything, and you take personal care of them in restoring them to adult functioning, it seems pretty obvious that they're going to effectively imprint on you. I'm not sure how much this is the case (the wiki pretty much claims the women of Brethil + Brandir were responsible for her care), but if it is, asking someone who's that dependent on you to marry you is actually kinda skeevy.

But yes: Turin's decisions surrounding Nienor were actually good, knowing what he knew. Had he not gotten himself knocked out, he could have faced real consequences that weren't his fault...

... because they were his sister's. She's under Morgoth's curse too, and her mind-wiping came about because she tried to take on a dragon face to face. That was her bad decision.

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I think Turin's fate is also in part due to his inability to keep his head down; he cannot be a lesser man than he is. He tries to start fresh time and time again, but he cannot be less than what he can. Did he have a position or an honour that he didn't deserve? No. He really deserved all, he was that good, and he couldn't suppress the effort in himself. All he had to do was be second best, settle down, let someone else make the calls. But he had to fight to his full potential, had to live to his full potential, take charge of his own life - Master his Fate, be the one who makes the calls of his life rather than letting it flow where it would by the choices of other men. Only with the Curse, as you said, do all your efforts - which are good efforts! - turn everything around them sour. Turin's choices and behaviours aren't always great, but they often make a lot of sense in the context of what he knows. There are many other people who also aren't your perfect goody-two-shoes, but no one is as unlucky as Turin.
I'm not sure I agree. Turin was great at getting people to follow him, but abysmally terrible at choosing where to lead them. The outlaws died because Turin led them to camp with someone who utterly hated them; Nargothrond died because he preferred open battle to stealth. The one time people refused to follow him, his attack on Glaurung was 100% successful.

A charismatic, brave, and strong leader who leads you into disaster every time sounds like one of the worst things you could have, actually.

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Old 04-18-2019, 08:35 AM   #149
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If time-travel existed in Middle Earth, so many issues could be fixed and many characters would have a happy ending.


Come to think of it, will the Valar allow their family to exist again? He is their chosen champion, the one who would destroy Morgoth once and for all during the final battle of the world. Surely they would allow his family to live together with him as his reward for getting rid of the No.1 Enemy of Arda?
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:51 AM   #150
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It would be a nice dramedy: The Curse of CoH. I can see it now.....


Curse of Children of Hurin


MORGOTH:
He started it! He questioned my authority!


ERU:
So you saw fit to curse not only him, but his entire family.


MORGOTH:
It seemed like a good idea at a time...


ERU:
Everything seems like a good idea at a time to you. Including destroying the very creations your brothers and sisters put their hearts and minds into...


HURIN:
Yeah, what do you have to say for yourself, Morgy?


MORGOTH:
You and your family deserved it, you insolent cur. And don't call me 'Morgy' ever again!



Did you enjoy my little teaser.....?
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:00 AM   #151
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As for Niniel... when someone comes to you with literally no memory of anything, and you take personal care of them in restoring them to adult functioning, it seems pretty obvious that they're going to effectively imprint on you. I'm not sure how much this is the case (the wiki pretty much claims the women of Brethil + Brandir were responsible for her care), but if it is, asking someone who's that dependent on you to marry you is actually kinda skeevy.

But yes: Turin's decisions surrounding Nienor were actually good, knowing what he knew. Had he not gotten himself knocked out, he could have faced real consequences that weren't his fault...

... because they were his sister's. She's under Morgoth's curse too, and her mind-wiping came about because she tried to take on a dragon face to face. That was her bad decision.
Well, I guess you could say that it takes two to make a bad marriage...


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I'm not sure I agree. Turin was great at getting people to follow him, but abysmally terrible at choosing where to lead them. The outlaws died because Turin led them to camp with someone who utterly hated them; Nargothrond died because he preferred open battle to stealth. The one time people refused to follow him, his attack on Glaurung was 100% successful.

A charismatic, brave, and strong leader who leads you into disaster every time sounds like one of the worst things you could have, actually.
Again, though, you are judging the decisions by the result. Oh course, if we know ahead of time that the result will be bad, we won't make that choice. Try making those choices in Turin's place knowing what he knows and not what you know.

Let me give you a couple examples of alternative histories. Nargothrond continues its policy of secrecy, doesn't stick its head out. Doriath falls, Gondolin falls, eventually Morgoth concentrates his forces on Nargothrond which eventually also falls, and so what was the point of its existence? To prolong the suffering? Or to make an actual change in the war against Morgoth? Or how about this. The battle at Tumhalad goes somewhat differently; Glaurung is defeated at Nargothrond; Elves and Men rally to Nargothrond; their forces grow and push back Morgoth and the Easterlings, perhaps liberating Hithlum, perhaps Dorthonion, perhaps even beyond - who knows, perhaps knocking on his very door.

We as readers tend to judge events based on the outcome, and with the knowledge that Morgoth cannot be defeated with local efforts; we are too focused on the necessity Earendil and the forces of the Valar. But Turin doesn't know about Earendil. No one knows about Earendil. Earendil himself doesn't know about his importance. So I maintain that we allow for multiple possible outcomes for Turin's decisions.

I guess the big problem specifically with Nargothrond was that there ended up a Man, with Mannish ambitions, leading a group of Elves, with Elvish thinking. Turin was not the only Man in the surrounding events who would choose risk over comfort so as to be able to share in the struggles of their homeland and make an impact against Morgoth. An Elf might have infinite patience and possibly an idea that eventually things might be different; and Elf might hope to outlive Morgoth at least until the tides turn. A Man must make his impact when he can, and the Elvish secrecy naturally seems like strength wasted unless you know what you're saving the strength for. We see the thought of fighting while you can in wiser Men than Turin, and the idea makes sense. Elves hope for a distant future, Men rely on themselves to shape that future. Maybe it's not a good idea to mix the two in the first place. Maybe Nargothrond is not the best place to enact this desire. Maybe Turin has too concentrated a theme of making his own fate. But I cannot call it an absolutely bad idea. I mean, with the same logic we should call the Nirnaeth a terrible idea and name Maedhros a terrible strategist. A Battle that meant to succeed, and had all the potential to succeed (assuming we don't look ahead to Earendil etc) - but we judge it by its failure rather than its potential. Maedhros had a reason to act as he did, and so did all the participants. Judging decisions by their outcomes only works when you already know the outcome; I am looking at the decision process a priori, so to speak.


Edit: crossed with Urwen. It's a busy thread!
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:00 AM   #152
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If time-travel existed in Middle Earth, so many issues could be fixed and many characters would have a happy ending.
If time travel existed in Middle-earth, Melkor would have done even more horrible things while the Valar hesitated over the advisability of them.

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Come to think of it, will the Valar allow their family to exist again? He is their chosen champion, the one who would destroy Morgoth once and for all during the final battle of the world. Surely they would allow his family to live together with him as his reward for getting rid of the No.1 Enemy of Arda?
Out of their jurisdiction. Resurrecting Beren and granting Luthien the Gift of Men was a decision of Iluvatar, not of Mandos or even Manwe, and came about specifically because the Doomsman couldn't change those fates. Since the House of Hurin are all headed to the same place, Luthien's plea doesn't apply; they can all go on to whatever awaits Men together.

But that's a good thing! The Gift of Men is just that - a gift. They're not going into oblivion, but to something that the Elves, the Valar, and the One consider to be better than lingering in Arda. The desire to stay over-long is a corruption of Melkor, and was the downfall of Numenor.

Though, to be kind, we might imagine that the kids got to hang about in Mandos until their parents showed up. It was only a couple of years, and they probably needed the counselling time! That way they can all head out into the unknown, together at last for the first time.

(For Lalaith, we might need to invoke the old idea of children being set apart in some way, and permitted to wait until their parents arrive to bear them onwards; or else she can greet them Outside and show them around as their own personal Sun.)

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Old 04-18-2019, 09:04 AM   #153
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No comments about my little teaser?
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:06 AM   #154
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If time-travel existed in Middle Earth, so many issues could be fixed and many characters would have a happy ending.


Come to think of it, will the Valar allow their family to exist again? He is their chosen champion, the one who would destroy Morgoth once and for all during the final battle of the world. Surely they would allow his family to live together with him as his reward for getting rid of the No.1 Enemy of Arda?
I almost wonder if Turin is the one to finally defeat Morgoth because he has the most hate and rage against the guy. Was there anyone else that Morgoth messed up as badly? Who hated him as much?

I like to imagine Turin defeating him not so much by his strength as by the power of his fury and his despair, finally turned directly against the cause of his misery and enemy he has tried to oppose all his life...
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:11 AM   #155
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No comments about my little teaser?
So, so much cross-posting... I assume this is The Trial Of Morgoth, Or, What We Did In The Hereafter?

hS
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:14 AM   #156
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No comments about my little teaser?
Honestly, I think Hurin already stood Morgoth up enough in life. Morgoth wasn't used to being held in such contempt to his face. That takes a lot of guts. Hurin already did the most badass thing a man could do, and there's little Eru could add to shame Morgoth more than Hurin's calm and stubbornness.

But if you write a continuation, I would like to read it.
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:18 AM   #157
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So, so much cross-posting... I assume this is The Trial Of Morgoth, Or, What We Did In The Hereafter?

hS

You could call it that.


And G55, I am already writing the continuation.
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:19 AM   #158
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So, so much cross-posting...
I know! It's crazy! I love it! (but also struggle to keep up occasionally)
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Old 04-18-2019, 10:13 AM   #159
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I almost wonder if Turin is the one to finally defeat Morgoth because he has the most hate and rage against the guy. Was there anyone else that Morgoth messed up as badly? Who hated him as much?

I like to imagine Turin defeating him not so much by his strength as by the power of his fury and his despair, finally turned directly against the cause of his misery and enemy he has tried to oppose all his life...
Yesssss! Feel the hatred! Let it flow through you, and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete!
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Old 04-18-2019, 11:18 AM   #160
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Yesssss! Feel the hatred! Let it flow through you, and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete!
Hahaha!!!!

But can you imagine Turin killing Morgoth out of patience and forgiveness?
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