I think I figured it out! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

KayQy · 01-29-2001, 02:40 PM

The problem nearly everyone has with the movies ultimately boils down to this: we've put the work of Tolkien up on a pedestal higher than Mt. Everest. With reason. But how can we expect even the greatest movie to reach such lofty heights? When I first watched Bakshi's LOTR, I loved it (except for the part where it stopped in the middle.) It was only after seeing it several times, thinking a lot, and listening to the older, wiser *cough* fans on the websites that it started seeming really inferior. So granted that it might still stink no matter how much salt we take it with (remember Lost World: Jurassic Park), maybe we should enjoy it as a movie BEFORE we start picking it apart.

Inziladun · 01-29-2001, 11:00 PM

Well,I can't speak for everyone (in fact I know I don't regarding the movies). I wouldn't say I have Tolkien's works on a pedestal,even though my more than passing interest is apparent in the very fact that I post here. I really don't have a problem with Jackson's movies in themselves. I just wish for no movies based on Tolkien works. Some things are better left the way they are,the way they were intended. I suppose it's just that literally nothing is sacred, and there's nothing Hollywood and mass culture won't touch (and maul beyond recognition) in the pursuit of money. As is obvious,I don't care much for the movie industry in general,so maybe an unbiased opinion would be better.... Manwë keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails.

***Mister Underhill*** · 01-30-2001, 12:50 AM

Heh. I don't know how "unbiased" I am, but I'll take a swipe at it anyway. Even I'm getting tired of hearing myself defend the movies in this forum, so I guess I'll quit rising to bait like this afore long. But until that time comes, let me offer an alternative to your rather cynical, "anything for a buck" judgment of the filmmakers' motivations. I think you may be seriously mistaken.

Peter Jackson is a fan. There can be no doubt of this. By the time the trilogy is finished, I'm betting he will have spent upwards of five years of his life adapting LotR to the screen. That's five years of practically round-the-clock LotR. Now, you may have problems with how he does the job, but he is doing it -- with zeal and passion and enthusiasm by all accounts. Now, I'm also certain that it took some convincing on his part to get the studio to pony up $300 million on a "swords and sorcery" picture, which traditionally are always duds (witness the late D&D movie). And I'm sure that there's enormous pressure on him to deliver $300 million dollars worth of movies that the studio feels good about. And at the end of the day, I'm sure the studio hopes to make their money back plus a tidy profit. Is it evil to make money off of art? The prof made money from his books. His estate sold the movie rights to begin with, and will make money from successful films.

Directing, while it certainly has some glamour attached to it, is a very demanding and difficult job. Sixteen to eighteen hour days are common. The responsibility for a $300 million investment (probably closer to $400 million after marketing) must be enormous. All I'm saying is that the guys and gals who do it, at least at that level, do it because they are passionate about filmmaking and about storytelling. I don't think PJ is spending years of his life on a difficult job simply to make a buck -- he was likely a millionaire several times over before he began.

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 1/30/01 1:51:03 am

Gwaihir the Windlord · 01-30-2001, 01:30 AM

Although I'm often inclined to disagree with Mister Underhill regarding the movies, this time I wholeheartedly agree with him. Maybe a lot of people (myself included) are of the opinion that he is not doing such a good job as he could with these movies , but it's not just the money, I'm sure. Of course he'll be glad of a few tidy profits by the way, but he is certainly a fan. No doubt about that. Gwaihir the Windlord <A href="http://www.barrowdowns.com">the barrow-downs</A> 'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor, for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever, and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'

the Lorien wanderer · 01-30-2001, 08:19 AM

Perhaps... Perhaps Peter Jackson is a really great guy. Maybe he even loves Tolkien's books more than I do, though that's highly doubtful . But what I'm worried about, is that PJ's perception of LOTR might be way different from what a person would imagine upon reading the books first. It's really a very simple problem to solve. Make it a law to read LOTR BEFORE you come and see the movie. Mr. U- there's nothing wrong with making money off art. The problem arises when the money becomes more important than the art itself. Which invariably happens in Hollywood. Not all those who wander are lost.

Inziladun · 01-30-2001, 10:45 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "There's nothing wrong with making money off art. The problem arises when the money becomes more important than the art itself.Which invariably happens in Hollywood."<hr></blockquote> Hear,hear. It's just hard for me to explain the changes I've heard Jackson is making if it isn't for the purpose of broadening the target audience,and thereby increasing the returns.The Arwen thing comes immediately to mind. And for the record,I do have a tendancy to be rather cynical. Manwë keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails.

***Mister Underhill*** · 01-30-2001, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Which invariably happens in Hollywood.

I would have kept quiet if you'd said, "frequently", or "usually", or even "almost always", but "invariably" is just more cynicism. I could sit here for the rest of the day and list off movies that are pure artistic triumphs, whether they made money or not.

Inziladun · 01-30-2001, 02:46 PM

Ok,I'll concede that one. But the ones that are true "artistic triumphs" are very much the minority. Mostly it's just calculated attempts to con large amounts of money from as many people as possible. The movies I've seen in the theater for the past few years that I actually felt were worth what I paid,I can count on one hand. Any discussion of movies,tv,or music is really just about personal preferences though. I'm sure there are millions who will go to the LoTR movies and absolutely love them. I just don't believe I'll be one of 'em. Manwë keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails.

red · 01-30-2001, 06:06 PM

Duh! If these movies bother you ALL (for Inziladun) so much, don't go see them. I personally can't wait to see them. I love you(singular), PJ! I'd like to see ALL you whiners make a movie half as good. -réd <blockquote>"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer." -A Short Rest, The Hobbit</blockquote>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000094>red</A> at: 1/30/01 9:42:56 pm

Inziladun · 01-30-2001, 07:48 PM

I refer the Honourable Lady to the last two lines of my previous post. Manwë keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails.

red · 01-30-2001, 08:23 PM

You assume too much, Inziladun. The 'you' in my post was meant to be plural, referring to ALL movie-whiners. Too bad English doesn't have a built in plural 'you' like Spanish. Oh well. -réd <blockquote>"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer." -A Short Rest, The Hobbit</blockquote>

the Lorien wanderer · 01-30-2001, 09:54 PM

Touche! Right Mr U. That was the wrong word to use. Perhaps 'mostly' is more accurate than 'invariably'. But as Inziladun said, PJ has made many changes in the movie that do not increase artistic value, but commercial value. Red: I think the point most of us 'whiners' are trying to make is that we don't want a movie at all. So the question of us trying to make a better movie does not arise. Not all those who wander are lost.

Orald · 01-30-2001, 10:02 PM

No movies verses movies. I would want to go wiht movies, but I hope that these aren't the only ones ever made. I hope there are several versions, that way there is no concrete picture in my head except for the one that i first arrived with.

Inziladun · 01-30-2001, 11:47 PM

Well red,you could have said "y'all". Manwë keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails.

***Mister Underhill*** · 01-31-2001, 12:07 PM

For those of you who haven't seen it, check out the Letter that HI posted in the thread, "Parallels between LOTR and WWII" in the Books section. The extensive notes and criticism that it can be implied the prof received from Unwin & Rayner (particularly Rayner, judging from the letter) makes me think of the position PJ must be in. Here were Rayner & Unwin asking for changes on something that they had little or no money invested in.

I'm sure PJ has had to make compromises along the way to appease those holding the checkbook. Moviemaking isn't like writing a book, where you can be an Oxford professor, dink around with your book on the side for years on end, and then just present it as a finished product, take it or leave it. You need the money before you start, and you need them to keep doling it out while you're going along. Perhaps PJ figured a few compromises were worth it to be able to get the chance of a lifetime. Also, you never know what's going to end up on the cutting room floor. For all we know, scenes of Liv swinging a sword may not make it into the movie. Sometimes a director will shoot scenes just to appease whatever 800lb. Hollywood gorilla is pressuring him to, then slyly edit them out of the film later. Unlikely, I guess, but we still have time to hope.

Samwise of the shire · 04-03-2001, 06:14 PM

I think that-who is the author I forget everything-well who ever you are made a good point:The moves cant go as high as people expect them to.Like you said the movies cant follow every detail,so it kind bugs me when people memorize every detail and then go nuts about that particular detail,like who ever you are said watch the movies then think about it dont let to much detail not let you have a good time,I just wanted to say good point sam

***Gilthalion*** · 04-04-2001, 07:22 AM

While I do regret the expurgation of Bombadil and perhaps the Downs from the movies, I have no trouble with the expansion of Arwen's role, as I have "reliably" heard it. It won't quite be a Xena Warrior Princess thing afterall. Tolkien himself agreed that this sort of thing was better for such efforts than condensing too much into too little. I, too, enjoyed the Ralph Bakshi movie for what it was and wished he had finished! It was flawed in many ways (find the Tolkien Sarcasm Page for a GREAT critique!), but there was love behind it. I rented it last year again. I will enjoy the forthcoming Peter Jackson trilogy for what it will be. The quality of actors assembled, the loving care that has been spent on costumes and sets and special effects, the wonderous New Zealand scenery... I CAN'T WAIT! Red is right! Stop whining! As for putting Tolkien's work on a pedestal, that's precisely where it belongs, as the greatest work of literature in the 20th century. It is absurd (in my opinion) to expect even a $300-400 million dollar cinematic effort to compare to it word for word. But I expect to be greatly pleased with it all the same! Cinematography is a completely different thing from literature, as Mr. Underhill has ably written. Even so, the "feel" I have for this is ever-so-close to what I have myself imagined such a picture should be. The anticipation! Ahhhhh! I don't think that anyone is more cynical or a greater critic of the contemporary Hollywood-New York culture/entertainment industry than I am. I do not read the fantasy novels that others have drooled over, for scanning the first chapters of these "works" has always left me cold. These authors are just knocking off cheap serials for the cash. There is no love and certainly no genius or great spirit behind these efforts. Some folk, in their thirst for fantasy and science fiction devour these efforts like the pathetic folk who read Harlequin Romances or (recent) Star Trek novels. Formula writing and cotton candy for the mind! That's why that Dungeons & Dragons movie failed! I didn't and won't waste the precious money and even more precious time! I could be enjoying sunshine or starlight instead, for free, and with much better consequence to my heart and soul. Save your slings and arrows for crap like those endless fantasy serials and formulaic Hollywood knockoffs! These deserve your vituperation! Peter Jackson's cinematic effort will be different, I'm sure. Though it will be (necessarily) Tolkien Abridged, it will still be (obviously!) Tolkien, presented with great love and craft! I CAN'T WAIT!!!! <center> <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com">Barrow-Downs</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000">Bare Bones</a>~<a href="http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhir">Tar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.html">Grand Adventures</a>~<a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.asp">The Hobbits</a>~<a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com">Tolkien Trail</a> </center>

Meron · 04-04-2001, 09:14 AM

Right on, Gilthalion! I, too, am doing my best to contain myself as I await the release of the films. At first, I found myself nitpicking about any variation from the books, but now my overriding feeling is that taking liberties with the story is okay as long as it doesn't alter the essence of ME and the characters. I am not a fan of the fantasy or sci-fi genres, as people expect me to be when they find out that I'm a near-obsessive LOTR fan. What grabs me about LOTR is that it takes me to a time and place that I wish I could experience, and I would love to know the people who lived there. I grew to love the members of the Fellowship as much as they loved each other. Things were simpler then, wars notwithstanding, with unspoiled lands and not nearly as much of the so-called "progress" (and resulting information/sensory overload) that has made today's population a virtual grab-bag of neuroses. This is not an attempt to make a sweeping judgment about all people, mind you, nor am I excessively disenchanted with today's world - it's just an attempt at some sort of summary about the books' appeal to me. Who wouldn't want to live in a more "innocent" time and place in which a man's honor was more important to him than anything else, and peoples' existence was much closer to nature? As long as the films preserve that essence, I don't really care if minor differences from the books exist. Judging from what I've read, PJ and the actors involved in the project have considered it to be an extraordinary experience. It appears that there was definitely some Middle Earth magic in the atmosphere, and that it was a labor of love on everyone's part. Undoubtedly, that would infuse their performances, so I have high hopes that the films will capture the magic of Middle Earth and the wonderful natures of the characters. And I couldn't ask for anything more.

Meron · 04-04-2001, 09:23 AM

Besides, none of my friends will go with me to see the films if they're gonna have to listen to me going, "Hrumph!" through the whole thing !

Suldaledhel · 04-05-2001, 01:48 PM

Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing......... I cannot claim to not have been outraged at first hearing about the variations in the movies from the books. But now I am perfectly comfortable with the creative liberties PJ has taken. Watching the movies will be like reading a different version of LoTR (with the obvious visual aspect making the majority of differences) and I will welcome plot changes. This was there is some sense of unknowing, whereas if the movies followed the books exactly, we would know what happened. These changes that PJ has made have most likely been taken into careful consideration, and added for the optimal effect on both new and old Tolkien fans. So I say, watch the movies and enjoy them for what they are, and if you still dont like them, then comlain and whine all you want. They all gazed at him. His hair was white as snow in the sunshine; and gleaming white was his robe; the eyes under his deep brows were bright, piercing as the rays of the sun; power was in his hand. Between wonder, joy, and fear they found no words to say. 'I have passed through fire and deep water, since we parted. I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned much that I had forgotten. I can see things far off, but many things close at hand I cannot see. I shall tell you of my tales at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> ."

Inziladun · 04-05-2001, 09:28 PM

Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing......... Not supporting the movies and saying so: that's whining? Why? Is a minority opinion less important,or less interesting? Or just annoying? I still check the "The Movies" section regularly,just because I'm interested in what others think about it. In spite of the fact that I almost invariably disagree with everyone else about this,I don't feel that makes what they say less important or less worth the read. Shouldn't the one or two of us non movie-supporters get the same consideration,without having our thoughts classified as "anguish","gratuitous",and "whining"? Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.

Aldaron · 04-05-2001, 09:45 PM

Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing......... This has been an extremely interesting discussion. But it all boils down pretty much to one is a book and one is a movie. And they aren't the same. There's no way PJ could have filmed this epic without leaving something out, indeed, a lot of things. I intend to enjoy the movie for what it is, and then go back to the book(s), probably with increased enthusiasm.

Meron · 04-06-2001, 10:26 AM

Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing......... I, for one, wholeheartedly respect your opinions, Inziladun. Your perception of Hollywood is similar to mine regarding the music business (which, it seems, cares little about music). When we love stories (or songs, for that matter), it's because they touch us in an intimate fashion. They mean something different to each person, and to see them tussled with can make us feel like something that's dear to us has been violated. I look forward to the films, but must admit that the idea of LOTR film-related merchandising makes me cringe. I would hate to see the day that the "Hissing Gollum Doll" (fish sold separately) becomes the "must-have" toy for the little tykes at Christmas.

***Gilthalion*** · 04-08-2001, 09:52 AM

Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing......... Variety is the spice of life, as they say! But I think it's one thing to have an opinion (I've moaned and whined myself about what will be cut!) about the movies and another to be totally against the concept of there BEING a cinematic version. Tolkien himself did not object. <center> <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com">Barrow-Downs</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000">Bare Bones</a>~<a href="http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhir">Tar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.html">Grand Adventures</a>~<a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.asp">The Hobbits</a>~<a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com">Tolkien Trail</a> </center>

the Lorien wanderer · 04-08-2001, 11:06 PM

Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing......... What do you mean 'one or two' Inziladun? Where does the 'one' bit come in? I am as much a 'whiner' as you are. And I rather agree that perhaps our opinion should be respected and not passed over as whining. Just a thought. I've said it a zillion times and I'll say it again. You can't look at the movie and the merchandising separately. They go hand in hand. And like it or nor, there will be Happy Meals with a little Gandalf brandishing a sword and Aragorn brandishing a staff (since no-one bothers about accuracy anymore). Anyway, it seems that everyone here except Inzi will like those Happy Meals, so I guess I better stop 'whining' huh? What if - what if this is as good as it gets?

burrahobbit · 04-09-2001, 10:52 AM

Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing......... But Gandalf has a sword, so that really isn't so bad. What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

***Gilthalion*** · 04-09-2001, 11:04 AM

LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred! To say that "nothing is sacred" and that no movie should ever be made is a rather extreme opinion! Provacative posts provoke! While I hardly think there can be much more appreciation for the genius of Tolkien's effort than I hold, I do not consider it to be "sacred!" That's a word used to describe that which is holy or consecrated to the worship of God Almighty. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. --J.R.R. Tolkien (Letter #131)<hr></blockquote> As mentioned before, if Tolkien himself did not object to the idea itself of movies being made, why should anyone else? His letters contain many thoughts on the very subject. Sorry to offend! (Sincerely!) The dissenting opinion, in this case, seems unreasonable and even supercilious. Which is more accurate than to say "whining." I might respect YOU(y'all), and I certainly respect your RIGHT to an opinion, but I might not respect the OPINION itself. (I quite honestly don't understand what is meant when someone says I should "respect" ANY opinion from ANY person. By that do you mean that opinions should not be classified negatively or positively, or that there should be no opinions about opinions at all, or that no dissenting opinions of dissenting opinions should be posted?) If I walk into a Star Trek convention and tell them that The Next Generation should never have been made (not to mention the movies, novels, comic books and merchandise!) and that only the old classic Star Trek episodes filmed in the 1960's are worth watching, I would not expect that to be considered a worthy and valued opinion, though I might hope that the Trekkies would not think ill of me personally. And to be honest, having walked into a convention of Trekkies (who would be first of all indignant I did not call them "Trekkers&quot

and haughtily told them what I thought of what they clearly anticipated and enjoyed, I might not myself enjoy hearing their opinion of my opinion about their opinion! (I might even whine about that!) Now, if I were to argue with them that the movies were not as good as the series, for various ascetic reasons, they might even accord my opinion some validity (and me some respect). But just to flat out deny the viability of the cinema to tell the tales... ...they might well take it that I did not think their opinion valid (obviously I don't if I dissent). And if I present my dissenting opinion in a supercillious fashion, then they might not think that I even respected them! Then, they might say something like, "What? Oh, just quit your whining and enjoy the convention!" (If they don't say something worse...) And my 12" Gandalf action-figure with Kung-Fu grip and life-like hair had better have both a sword that glows in proximity to orc action-figures AND a staff that shoots sparks! Not to mention a hat and pipe! (I doubt I'll buy the Happy Meal...) Merry and Pippin had BETTER be taller than Frodo and Sam... And if Gollum's eyes don't glow in the dark... What do you mean $19.95!!!!!!! <center> <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com">Barrow-Downs</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000">Bare Bones</a>~<a href="http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhir">Tar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.html">Grand Adventures</a>~<a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.asp">The Hobbits</a>~<a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com">Tolkien Trail</a> </center>

Inziladun · 04-09-2001, 06:35 PM

Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred! (This message was left blank) Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000125>Inziladu n</A> at: 4/9/01 8:40:21 pm

Inziladun · 04-09-2001, 06:37 PM

Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred! I don't really consider Tolkien's work "sacred",that was just a figure of speech. And I don't see how thinking the movies unnecessary is an example of an extreme opinion,or why this has to be seen as provocative. I am aware Tolkien himself was not adverse to possible adaptations of his work,and that's all well and good. But I am not he,and simply don't think it should be done. The primary purpose of writing things here is of course to express opinions. Taking issue with the opinions of others is fine. If everyone agreed all the time things would be pretty boring. But the "whiners" label got applied early on,and I just didn't feel there was any need for it,regardless of how strongly one feels about a certain topic. And TLW,by "one or two" I was thinking of myself and you. The only ones I knew of. Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.

the Lorien wanderer · 04-09-2001, 09:28 PM

Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred! Hmmmm..... I think my fellow whiner has pretty much said it all. Gil-by 'respecting an opinion' we mean respect our right to have that opinion. You may not agree with it but we still have a right to air it. That's what makes debate so thoroughly enjoyable. Different opinions. What if - what if this is as good as it gets?

***Gilthalion*** · 04-10-2001, 07:12 AM

Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred! No worries! I think everyone is on the same track regarding free expression. But the context of the discussion begins long before this thread was started. Most all of us have whined at one time or another (as admitted by several) about deletions and amendments to the story! To say there should be no movies at all is CERTAINLY an extreme position! What position could be more extreme? "It should not be translated into languages foreign to English?" "It should not be read by anyone who has not first read THE SILMARILLION?" "It should only be read by consenting adults?" To get more extreme, you have to get absurd! But the pejorative "whining" was perhaps unnecessary. I merely point out (as one who has extreme positions on a number of issues) that when expressing such an extreme position amongst ardent fans anticipating the very thing, one might expect (if not excuse and laugh off) such reactions! Lighten up! To say that y'all are whining about this is not to disrespect you. But you aren't "respected" any more than the rest of us whiners. I shall certainly join the whining chorus (duet) if and when I see that there is something to whine about. (Indeed, I have already whined at some length in multiple posts regarding the expurgation of Bombadil!) Then you can say, "See? I told you so!" And I will whine that you were right. (But I'll bet you watch it all the same!) <center> <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com">Barrow-Downs</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000">Bare Bones</a>~<a href="http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhir">Tar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.html">Grand Adventures</a>~<a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.asp">The Hobbits</a>~<a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com">Tolkien Trail</a> </center>

Inziladun · 04-10-2001, 07:57 PM

Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred! Well,I still don't see my view as extreme,but there it is. And you'll lose your bet. Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.

enep · 04-10-2001, 09:30 PM

No Movies? Bah! The movies aren't going to be perfect, sure - but neither are the fans. Not everyone's going to like it, not everyone's going to hate it - although myself I despise the moviemaking business and actors altogether, I do admire a director's ability to please the mob, not one of the easiest things to do (especially when people have high expectations) I had a debate in primary school with the topic "That the book is better than the movie." As to your opinion of the movies probably depends of your views on that issue. IMHO: the book. Let's all be happy Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 4/10/01 11:31:56 pm

***Gilthalion*** · 04-10-2001, 09:43 PM

Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred! extreme adj. at the end or outermost point; farthest away; most remote; utmost. In all my browsing, I've never seen a more extreme view regarding the movies than the notion that movies should never be made of Tolkien's work. As mentioned, the author himself did not even hold the view. The rest of the range runs from ANY-TOLKIEN-MOVIE-IS-A-GOOD-TOLKIEN-MOVIE to ARRGH!-THEY'VE-KILLED-BOMBADIL-AND-TURNED-ARWEN-INTO-XENA!!! While I see nothing wrong with folk holding extreme views on varioius subjects, come on! (And I'll still bet someday, somehow, you'll see it and watch despite yourself! Unfortunately, there will be no way for me to collect, as I'll grant that you may hold out for quite some time.) <center> <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com">Barrow-Downs</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000">Bare Bones</a>~<a href="http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhir">Tar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.html">Grand Adventures</a>~<a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.asp">The Hobbits</a>~<a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com">Tolkien Trail</a> </center>

the Lorien wanderer · 04-10-2001, 10:16 PM

Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred! Actually I will watch the movie and enjoy it as LoTR-the movie. Not LoTR-the movie based on the book. And Peter Jackson is certainly making LoTr-the movie based on the book. I don't know if I'm quite comprehensible. What if - what if this is as good as it gets?

Inziladun · 04-10-2001, 10:23 PM

Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred! I really don't think so. I don't go to the movies very often,and I'm just not excited about this. Granted,I did see the 70's Bakshi (sp?) version. But being 4 years old at the time,I take no responsibility. Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.

Orald · 04-10-2001, 10:38 PM

Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred! for some reason the quote in your sig fits this topic very well. Shame on you , you shouldn't go see the movie either.(if you don't remember, that extra space is for The Lorien Wanderer, or TLW, but I shortened it even more) Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.

the Lorien wanderer · 04-11-2001, 06:42 AM

Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred! Oh no, no, no. I'm against the movie for many reasons,the main one being that those who haven't read LoTR will already have a pre-conceived image of it. Now, I've read a LoTR a million times which means my middle-earth isn't going to be affected by watching the movie at all, though I might cringe when a scene is murdered. Oh yeah, I forgot about the extra space Durelen. What if - what if this is as good as it gets?

***Mister Underhill*** · 04-11-2001, 07:35 AM

enep, why the hatred of Hollywood, movies, and actors? Why can't movies and books both be enjoyed?

enep · 04-12-2001, 04:49 AM

Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred! I'm not exactly sure, MU. I'd probably offend a whole lot of people if I typed what I thought, so I won't, but I can say the following. A picture conveys a thousand words; but I'd rather conjur up my own pictures from those thousand words. I'd rather develop my own interpretations, my own thoughts, my own criticisms, and not have to be so narrow minded as to agree with the director's interpretations. Movies are new-age propoganda...get some well known, liked actor (who, by the way, gets payed $10m a film and pays no taxes cos he's above the law) to kick a football and you can guarantee that a whole lot of people are going to start kicking footballs more than they did before. I'm generally against capitalism and commercialisation/globalisation as well, and considering Hollywood represents just about all of those to the highest percentile imaginable, my dislike of Hollywood is pretty self-explanatory; but that's getting ugly. (I'm more the idealistic, equality-for-all, social services type of person. ) Also: I never said that movies and books can strictly not both be enjoyed equally and in their own rights, simply that I will never enjoy movies as much as I do books. I go to the movies. I enjoyed Dude Where's My Car, (not that great an example ) and I'm sure I'll enjoy Lord of The Rings, but, to repeat myself, IMHO the book will always be better. - enep

01-29-2001, 11:00 PM	#2
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,058	<BR><br><br> Well,I can't speak for everyone (in fact I know I don't regarding the movies). I wouldn't say I have Tolkien's works on a pedestal,even though my more than passing interest is apparent in the very fact that I post here. I really don't have a problem with Jackson's movies in themselves. I just wish for <i> no</i> movies based on Tolkien works. Some things are better left the way they are,the way they were intended. I suppose it's just that literally nothing is sacred, and there's nothing Hollywood and mass culture won't touch (and maul beyond recognition) in the pursuit of money. As is obvious,I don't care much for the movie industry in general,so maybe an unbiased opinion would be better.... <p>Manwë keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails. </p> __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

01-30-2001, 01:30 AM	#4
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	<BR><br><br> Although I'm often inclined to disagree with Mister Underhill regarding the movies, this time I wholeheartedly agree with him. Maybe a lot of people (myself included) are of the opinion that he is not doing such a good job as he could with these movies , but it's not just the money, I'm sure. Of course he'll be glad of a few tidy profits by the way, but he is certainly a fan. No doubt about that. <p>Gwaihir the Windlord <I><A href="http://www.barrowdowns.com">the barrow-downs</A></I><BR> 'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,<BR> for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,<BR> and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'<BR></p>

01-30-2001, 08:19 AM	#5
the Lorien wanderer Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 276	<BR>Perhaps...</b><br><br> Perhaps Peter Jackson is a really great guy. Maybe he even loves Tolkien's books more than I do, though that's highly doubtful . But what I'm worried about, is that PJ's perception of LOTR might be way different from what a person would imagine upon reading the books first. It's really a very simple problem to solve. Make it a law to read LOTR BEFORE you come and see the movie. <br> <br> Mr. U- there's nothing wrong with making money off art. The problem arises when the money becomes more important than the art itself. Which invariably happens in Hollywood.<br> <p>Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

01-30-2001, 10:45 AM	#6
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,058	<BR><br><br> <blockquote><i>Quote:</i></b><hr> "There's nothing wrong with making money off art. The problem arises when the money becomes more important than the art itself.Which invariably happens in Hollywood."<hr></blockquote><br> <br> Hear,hear.<br> <br> It's just hard for me to explain the changes I've heard Jackson is making if it isn't for the purpose of broadening the target audience,and thereby increasing the returns.The Arwen thing comes immediately to mind. <br> <br> And for the record,I <i> do</i> have a tendancy to be rather cynical. <p>Manwë keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails. </p> __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

01-30-2001, 02:46 PM	#8
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,058	<BR><br><br> Ok,I'll concede that one. But the ones that are true <br> "artistic triumphs" are very much the minority. Mostly it's just calculated attempts to con large amounts of money from as many people as possible. The movies I've seen in the theater for the past few years that I actually felt were worth what I paid,I can count on one hand. <br> Any discussion of movies,tv,or music is really just about personal preferences though. I'm sure there are millions who will go to the LoTR movies and absolutely love them. I just don't believe I'll be one of 'em. <p>Manwë keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails. </p> __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

01-29-2001, 02:40 PM	#1
KayQy Wight Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Currently Spain Posts: 250	I think I figured it out! <BR>The problem nearly everyone has with the movies ultimately boils down to this: we've put the work of Tolkien up on a pedestal higher than Mt. Everest. With reason. But how can we expect even the greatest movie to reach such lofty heights? When I first watched Bakshi's LOTR, I loved it (except for the part where it stopped in the middle.) It was only after seeing it several times, thinking a lot, and listening to the older, wiser cough fans on the websites that it started seeming really inferior. So granted that it might still stink no matter how much salt we take it with (remember Lost World: Jurassic Park), maybe we should enjoy it as a movie BEFORE we start picking it apart. <p></p> __________________ Do you really want to know / Or are you a little scared, Afraid that God is not exactly what you'd have Him be? --OC Supertones, "Wilderness" "Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter." -- Max Beerbohm

01-30-2001, 12:50 AM	#3
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,752	Heh. I don't know how "unbiased" I am, but I'll take a swipe at it anyway. Even I'm getting tired of hearing myself defend the movies in this forum, so I guess I'll quit rising to bait like this afore long. But until that time comes, let me offer an alternative to your rather cynical, "anything for a buck" judgment of the filmmakers' motivations. I think you may be seriously mistaken. Peter Jackson is a fan. There can be no doubt of this. By the time the trilogy is finished, I'm betting he will have spent upwards of five years of his life adapting LotR to the screen. That's five years of practically round-the-clock LotR. Now, you may have problems with how he does the job, but he is doing it -- with zeal and passion and enthusiasm by all accounts. Now, I'm also certain that it took some convincing on his part to get the studio to pony up $300 million on a "swords and sorcery" picture, which traditionally are always duds (witness the late D&D movie). And I'm sure that there's enormous pressure on him to deliver $300 million dollars worth of movies that the studio feels good about. And at the end of the day, I'm sure the studio hopes to make their money back plus a tidy profit. Is it evil to make money off of art? The prof made money from his books. His estate sold the movie rights to begin with, and will make money from successful films. Directing, while it certainly has some glamour attached to it, is a very demanding and difficult job. Sixteen to eighteen hour days are common. The responsibility for a $300 million investment (probably closer to $400 million after marketing) must be enormous. All I'm saying is that the guys and gals who do it, at least at that level, do it because they are passionate about filmmaking and about storytelling. I don't think PJ is spending years of his life on a difficult job simply to make a buck -- he was likely a millionaire several times over before he began. Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 1/30/01 1:51:03 am

01-30-2001, 06:06 PM	#9
red Spirit of Mischief Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Land of the free and home of the brave Posts: 368	<BR>Duh!</b><br><br> If these movies bother you ALL (for Inziladun) so much, don't go see them. I personally can't wait to see them. I love you(singular), PJ! <br> <br> I'd like to see ALL you whiners make a movie half as good.<br> <br> -réd <p><blockquote><p>"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p> <p>-A Short Rest, <i>The Hobbit</i></p></blockquote></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000094>red</A> at: 1/30/01 9:42:56 pm<br></i> __________________ "Cats are like greatness: Some people are born into cat-loving families, some achieve cats, and some have cats thrust upon them." -William H. A. Carr

01-30-2001, 07:48 PM	#10
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,058	<BR><br><br> I refer the Honourable Lady to the last two lines of my previous post. <p>Manwë keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails. </p> __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

01-30-2001, 08:23 PM	#11
red Spirit of Mischief Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Land of the free and home of the brave Posts: 368	<BR><br><br> You assume too much, Inziladun. The 'you' in my post was meant to be plural, referring to ALL movie-whiners. Too bad English doesn't have a built in plural 'you' like Spanish. Oh well. <br> <br> -réd <p><blockquote><p>"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p> <p>-A Short Rest, <i>The Hobbit</i></p></blockquote></p> __________________ "Cats are like greatness: Some people are born into cat-loving families, some achieve cats, and some have cats thrust upon them." -William H. A. Carr

01-30-2001, 09:54 PM	#12
the Lorien wanderer Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 276	<BR>Touche!</b><br><br> Right Mr U. That was the wrong word to use. Perhaps 'mostly' is more accurate than 'invariably'. But as Inziladun said, PJ has made many changes in the movie that do not increase artistic value, but commercial value.<br> <br> Red: I think the point most of us 'whiners' are trying to make is that we don't want a movie at all. So the question of us trying to make a better movie does not arise. <p>Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

01-30-2001, 10:02 PM	#13
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	<BR><br><br> No movies verses movies. I would want to go wiht movies, but I hope that these aren't the only ones ever made. I hope there are several versions, that way there is no concrete picture in my head except for the one that i first arrived with.<br> <p></p>

01-30-2001, 11:47 PM	#14
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,058	<BR><br><br> Well red,you could have said "y'all". <p>Manwë keep you under the One, and send fair wind to your sails. </p> __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

01-31-2001, 12:07 PM	#15
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,752	For those of you who haven't seen it, check out the Letter that HI posted in the thread, "Parallels between LOTR and WWII" in the Books section. The extensive notes and criticism that it can be implied the prof received from Unwin & Rayner (particularly Rayner, judging from the letter) makes me think of the position PJ must be in. Here were Rayner & Unwin asking for changes on something that they had little or no money invested in. I'm sure PJ has had to make compromises along the way to appease those holding the checkbook. Moviemaking isn't like writing a book, where you can be an Oxford professor, dink around with your book on the side for years on end, and then just present it as a finished product, take it or leave it. You need the money before you start, and you need them to keep doling it out while you're going along. Perhaps PJ figured a few compromises were worth it to be able to get the chance of a lifetime. Also, you never know what's going to end up on the cutting room floor. For all we know, scenes of Liv swinging a sword may not make it into the movie. Sometimes a director will shoot scenes just to appease whatever 800lb. Hollywood gorilla is pressuring him to, then slyly edit them out of the film later. Unlikely, I guess, but we still have time to hope.

04-03-2001, 06:14 PM	#16
Samwise of the shire Wight Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 152	<BR><br><br> I think that-who is the author I forget everything-well who ever you are made a good point:The moves cant go as high as people expect them to.Like you said the movies cant follow every detail,so it kind bugs me when people memorize every detail and then go nuts about that particular detail,like who ever you are said watch the movies then think about it dont let to much detail not let you have a good time,I just wanted to say good point<br> sam <p></p>

04-04-2001, 07:22 AM	#17
*Gilthalion* Hobbitus Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: South Farthing Posts: 635	<BR><br><br> While I do regret the expurgation of Bombadil and perhaps the Downs from the movies, I have no trouble with the expansion of Arwen's role, as I have "reliably" heard it. It won't quite be a Xena Warrior Princess thing afterall. Tolkien himself agreed that this sort of thing was better for such efforts than condensing too much into too little.<br> <br> I, too, enjoyed the Ralph Bakshi movie for what it was and wished he had finished! It was flawed in many ways (find the Tolkien Sarcasm Page for a GREAT critique!), but there was love behind it. I rented it last year again. <br> <br> I will enjoy the forthcoming Peter Jackson trilogy for what it will be. The quality of actors assembled, the loving care that has been spent on costumes and sets and special effects, the wonderous New Zealand scenery...<br> <br> I CAN'T WAIT!<br> <br> Red is right! Stop whining!<br> <br> As for putting Tolkien's work on a pedestal, that's precisely where it belongs, as the greatest work of literature in the 20th century.<br> <br> It is absurd (in my opinion) to expect even a $300-400 million dollar cinematic effort to compare to it word for word. But I expect to be greatly pleased with it all the same!<br> <br> Cinematography is a completely different thing from literature, as Mr. Underhill has ably written. Even so, the "feel" I have for this is ever-so-close to what I have myself imagined such a picture should be.<br> <br> The anticipation! Ahhhhh!<br> <br> I don't think that anyone is more cynical or a greater critic of the contemporary Hollywood-New York culture/entertainment industry than I am. <br> <br> I do not read the fantasy novels that others have drooled over, for scanning the first chapters of these "works" has always left me cold. These authors are just knocking off cheap serials for the cash. There is no love and certainly no genius or great spirit behind these efforts. Some folk, in their thirst for fantasy and science fiction devour these efforts like the pathetic folk who read Harlequin Romances or (recent) Star Trek novels. Formula writing and cotton candy for the mind! That's why that Dungeons & Dragons movie failed! I didn't <i> and won't</i> waste the precious money and even more precious time! I could be enjoying sunshine or starlight instead, for free, and with much better consequence to my heart and soul.<br> <br> Save your slings and arrows for crap like those endless fantasy serials and formulaic Hollywood knockoffs! These deserve your vituperation!<br> <br> Peter Jackson's cinematic effort will be different, I'm sure. Though it will be (necessarily) Tolkien Abridged, it will still be (obviously!) Tolkien, presented with great love and craft!<br> <br> I CAN'T WAIT!!!! <p><center> <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com">Barrow-Downs</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000">Bare Bones</a>~<a href="http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhir">Tar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.html">Grand Adventures</a>~<a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.asp">The Hobbits</a>~<a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com">Tolkien Trail</a> </center></p> __________________ Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures!

04-04-2001, 09:14 AM	#18
Meron Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 16	<BR><br><br> Right on, Gilthalion!<br> <br> I, too, am doing my best to contain myself as I await the release of the films. <br> <br> At first, I found myself nitpicking about any variation from the books, but now my overriding feeling is that taking liberties with the story is okay as long as it doesn't alter the essence of ME and the characters. <br> <br> I am not a fan of the fantasy or sci-fi genres, as people expect me to be when they find out that I'm a near-obsessive LOTR fan. What grabs me about LOTR is that it takes me to a time and place that I wish I could experience, and I would love to know the people who lived there. I grew to love the members of the Fellowship as much as they loved each other. <br> <br> Things were simpler then, wars notwithstanding, with unspoiled lands and not nearly as much of the so-called "progress" (and resulting information/sensory overload) that has made today's population a virtual grab-bag of neuroses. This is not an attempt to make a sweeping judgment about all people, mind you, nor am I excessively disenchanted with today's world - it's just an attempt at some sort of summary about the books' appeal to me. Who wouldn't want to live in a more "innocent" time and place in which a man's honor was more important to him than anything else, and peoples' existence was much closer to nature? As long as the films preserve that essence, I don't really care if minor differences from the books exist.<br> <br> Judging from what I've read, PJ and the actors involved in the project have considered it to be an extraordinary experience. It appears that there was definitely some Middle Earth magic in the atmosphere, and that it was a labor of love on everyone's part. Undoubtedly, that would infuse their performances, so I have high hopes that the films will capture the magic of Middle Earth and the wonderful natures of the characters. And I couldn't ask for anything more. <p></p>

04-04-2001, 09:23 AM	#19
Meron Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 16	<BR><br><br> Besides, none of my friends will go with me to see the films if they're gonna have to listen to me going, "Hrumph!" through the whole thing ! <p></p>

04-05-2001, 01:48 PM	#20
Suldaledhel Eru's Gift Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Where pride pays silver and plays golden Posts: 214	<BR> Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing.........</b><br><br> I cannot claim to not have been outraged at first hearing about the variations in the movies from the books. But now I am perfectly comfortable with the creative liberties PJ has taken. Watching the movies will be like reading a different version of LoTR (with the obvious visual aspect making the majority of differences) and I will welcome plot changes. This was there is some sense of unknowing, whereas if the movies followed the books exactly, we would know what happened. These changes that PJ has made have most likely been taken into careful consideration, and added for the optimal effect on both new and old Tolkien fans. So I say, watch the movies and enjoy them for what they are, and if you still dont like them, then comlain and whine all you want. <p>They all gazed at him. His hair was white as snow in the sunshine; and gleaming white was his robe; the eyes under his deep brows were bright, piercing as the rays of the sun; power was in his hand. Between wonder, joy, and fear they found no words to say. 'I have passed through fire and deep water, since we parted. I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned much that I had forgotten. I can see things far off, but many things close at hand I cannot see. I shall tell you of my tales at <a href=http://pub58.ezboard.com/bsuldalskeep>Sûldal's Keep</a> ." </p>

04-05-2001, 09:28 PM	#21
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,058	<BR> Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing.........</b><br><br> Not supporting the movies and saying so: that's whining? Why? Is a minority opinion less important,or less interesting? Or just annoying?<br> I still check the "The Movies" section regularly,just because I'm interested in what others think about it. In spite of the fact that I almost invariably disagree with everyone else about this,I don't feel that makes what they say less important or less worth the read. Shouldn't the one or two of us non movie-supporters get the same consideration,without having our thoughts classified as "anguish","gratuitous",and "whining"? <p>Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p> __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

04-05-2001, 09:45 PM	#22
Aldaron Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 86	<BR> Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing.........</b><br><br> This has been an extremely interesting discussion. But it all boils down pretty much to one is a book and one is a movie. And they aren't the same. There's no way PJ could have filmed this epic without leaving something out, indeed, a lot of things. I intend to enjoy the movie for what it is, and then go back to the book(s), probably with increased enthusiasm. <p></p>

04-06-2001, 10:26 AM	#23
Meron Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 16	<BR> Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing.........</b><br><br> I, for one, wholeheartedly respect your opinions, Inziladun. Your perception of Hollywood is similar to mine regarding the music business (which, it seems, cares little about music).<br> <br> When we love stories (or songs, for that matter), it's because they touch us in an intimate fashion. They mean something different to each person, and to see them tussled with can make us feel like something that's dear to us has been violated.<br> <br> I look forward to the films, but must admit that the idea of LOTR film-related merchandising makes me cringe. I would hate to see the day that the "Hissing Gollum Doll" (fish sold separately) becomes the "must-have" toy for the little tykes at Christmas.<br> <p></p>

04-08-2001, 09:52 AM	#24
*Gilthalion* Hobbitus Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: South Farthing Posts: 635	<BR> Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing.........</b><br><br> Variety is the spice of life, as they say!<br> <br> But I think it's one thing to have an opinion (I've moaned and whined myself about what will be cut!) about the movies and another to be totally against the concept of there BEING a cinematic version.<br> <br> Tolkien himself did not object. <p><center> <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com">Barrow-Downs</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000">Bare Bones</a>~<a href="http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhir">Tar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.html">Grand Adventures</a>~<a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.asp">The Hobbits</a>~<a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com">Tolkien Trail</a> </center></p> __________________ Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures!

04-08-2001, 11:06 PM	#25
the Lorien wanderer Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 276	<BR> Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing.........</b><br><br> What do you mean 'one or two' Inziladun? Where does the 'one' bit come in? I am as much a 'whiner' as you are. And I rather agree that perhaps our opinion should be respected and not passed over as whining. Just a thought. <br> <br> I've said it a zillion times and I'll say it again. You can't look at the movie and the merchandising separately. They go hand in hand. And like it or nor, there will be Happy Meals with a little Gandalf brandishing a sword and Aragorn brandishing a staff (since no-one bothers about accuracy anymore). Anyway, it seems that everyone here except Inzi will like those Happy Meals, so I guess I better stop 'whining' huh? <p>What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

04-09-2001, 10:52 AM	#26
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,436	<BR> Re: I wanna go back to the pedestal thing.........</b><br><br> But Gandalf has a sword, so that really isn't so bad. <p>What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p> __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

04-09-2001, 11:04 AM	#27
*Gilthalion* Hobbitus Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: South Farthing Posts: 635	<BR> LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred!</b><br><br> To say that "nothing is sacred" and that no movie should ever be made is a rather extreme opinion!<br> <br> Provacative posts provoke!<br> <br> While I hardly think there can be much more appreciation for the genius of Tolkien's effort than I hold, I do not consider it to be "sacred!" That's a word used to describe that which is holy or consecrated to the worship of God Almighty.<br> <br> <blockquote><i>Quote:</i></b><hr> I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. <br> <br> --J.R.R. Tolkien (Letter #131)<hr></blockquote><br> <br> As mentioned before, if Tolkien himself did not object to the idea itself of movies being made, why should anyone else? His letters contain many thoughts on the very subject.<br> <br> Sorry to offend! (Sincerely!)<br> <br> The dissenting opinion, in this case, <i> seems</i> unreasonable and even supercilious. Which is more accurate than to say "whining." I might respect YOU(y'all), and I certainly respect your RIGHT to an opinion, but I might not respect the OPINION itself.<br> <br> (I quite honestly don't understand what is meant when someone says I should "respect" ANY opinion from ANY person. By that do you mean that opinions should not be classified negatively or positively, or that there should be no opinions about opinions at all, or that no dissenting opinions of dissenting opinions should be posted?)<br> <br> If I walk into a Star Trek convention and tell them that The Next Generation should never have been made (not to mention the movies, novels, comic books and merchandise!) and that only the old classic Star Trek episodes filmed in the 1960's are worth watching, I would not expect that to be considered a worthy and valued opinion, though I might hope that the Trekkies would not think ill of me personally.<br> <br> And to be honest, having walked into a convention of Trekkies (who would be first of all indignant I did not call them "Trekkers&quot and haughtily told them what I thought of what they clearly anticipated and enjoyed, I might not myself enjoy hearing their opinion of my opinion about their opinion! (I might even whine about that!)<br> <br> Now, if I were to argue with them that the movies were not as good as the series, for various ascetic reasons, they might even accord my opinion some validity (and me some respect). But just to flat out deny the viability of the cinema to tell the tales...<br> <br> ...they might well take it that I did not think their opinion valid (obviously I don't if I dissent). And if I present my dissenting opinion in a supercillious fashion, then they might not think that I even respected them! Then, they might say something like, "What? Oh, just quit your whining and enjoy the convention!" (If they don't say something worse...)<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> And my 12" Gandalf action-figure with Kung-Fu grip and life-like hair had better have both a sword that glows in proximity to orc action-figures AND a staff that shoots sparks! Not to mention a hat and pipe! (I <i> doubt</i> I'll buy the Happy Meal...) Merry and Pippin had BETTER be taller than Frodo and Sam... And if Gollum's eyes don't glow in the dark... What do you mean $19.95!!!!!!! <p><center> <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com">Barrow-Downs</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000">Bare Bones</a>~<a href="http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhir">Tar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.html">Grand Adventures</a>~<a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.asp">The Hobbits</a>~<a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com">Tolkien Trail</a> </center></p> __________________ Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures!

04-09-2001, 06:35 PM	#28
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,058	<BR> Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred!</b><br><br> (This message was left blank) <p>Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000125>Inziladu n</A> at: 4/9/01 8:40:21 pm<br></i> __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

04-09-2001, 06:37 PM	#29
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,058	<BR> Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred!</b><br><br> I don't really consider Tolkien's work "sacred",that was just a figure of speech. And I don't see how thinking the movies unnecessary is an example of an extreme opinion,or why this has to be seen as provocative. I am aware Tolkien himself was not adverse to possible adaptations of his work,and that's all well and good. But I am not he,and simply don't think it should be done. <br> The primary purpose of writing things here is of course to express opinions. Taking issue with the opinions of others is fine. If everyone agreed all the time things would be pretty boring. But the "whiners" label got applied early on,and I just didn't feel there was any need for it,regardless of how strongly one feels about a certain topic. <br> <br> And TLW,by "one or two" I was thinking of myself and you. The only ones I knew of. <p>Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p> __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

04-09-2001, 09:28 PM	#30
the Lorien wanderer Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 276	<BR> Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred!</b><br><br> Hmmmm..... I think my fellow whiner has pretty much said it all. <br> Gil-by 'respecting an opinion' we mean respect our right to have that opinion. You may not agree with it but we still have a right to air it. That's what makes debate so thoroughly enjoyable. Different opinions. <p>What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

04-10-2001, 07:12 AM	#31
*Gilthalion* Hobbitus Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: South Farthing Posts: 635	<BR> Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred!</b><br><br> No worries!<br> <br> I think everyone is on the same track regarding free expression. But the context of the discussion begins long before this thread was started. Most all of us have whined at one time or another (as admitted by several) about deletions and amendments to the story!<br> <br> To say there should be no movies at all is CERTAINLY an extreme position! What position could be more extreme? "It should not be translated into languages foreign to English?" "It should not be read by anyone who has not first read THE SILMARILLION?" "It should only be read by consenting adults?" To get more extreme, you have to get absurd!<br> <br> But the pejorative "whining" was perhaps unnecessary. I merely point out (as one who has extreme positions on a number of issues) that when expressing such an extreme position amongst ardent fans anticipating the very thing, one might expect (if not excuse and laugh off) such reactions! Lighten up! To say that y'all are whining about this is not to disrespect you. But you aren't "respected" any more than the rest of us whiners.<br> <br> I shall certainly join the whining chorus (duet) if and when I see that there is something to whine about. (Indeed, I have already whined at some length in multiple posts regarding the expurgation of Bombadil!)<br> <br> Then you can say, "See? I told you so!"<br> <br> And I will whine that you were right.<br> <br> (But I'll bet you watch it all the same!) <p><center> <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com">Barrow-Downs</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000">Bare Bones</a>~<a href="http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhir">Tar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.html">Grand Adventures</a>~<a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.asp">The Hobbits</a>~<a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com">Tolkien Trail</a> </center></p> __________________ Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures!

04-10-2001, 07:57 PM	#32
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,058	<BR> Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred!</b><br><br> Well,I still don't see my view as extreme,but there it is. <br> <br> And you'll lose your bet. <p>Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p> __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

04-10-2001, 09:30 PM	#33
enep The Ghastly Leprechaun Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 406	<BR>No Movies?</b><br><br> Bah! The movies aren't going to be perfect, sure - but neither are the fans. Not everyone's going to like it, not everyone's going to hate it - although myself I despise the moviemaking business and actors altogether, I do admire a director's ability to please the mob, not one of the easiest things to do (especially when people have high expectations)<br> <br> I had a debate in primary school with the topic "That the book is better than the movie." As to your opinion of the movies probably depends of your views on that issue. IMHO: the book. <br> <br> Let's all be happy <br> <br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 4/10/01 11:31:56 pm<br></i> __________________ - enep

04-10-2001, 09:43 PM	#34
*Gilthalion* Hobbitus Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: South Farthing Posts: 635	<BR> Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred!</b><br><br> extreme <i> adj.</i></b> at the end or outermost point; farthest away; most remote; utmost.<br> <br> In all my browsing, I've never seen a more extreme view regarding the movies than the notion that movies should never be made of Tolkien's work. As mentioned, the author himself did not even hold the view. The rest of the range runs from ANY-TOLKIEN-MOVIE-IS-A-GOOD-TOLKIEN-MOVIE to ARRGH!-THEY'VE-KILLED-BOMBADIL-AND-TURNED-ARWEN-INTO-XENA!!! While I see nothing wrong with folk holding extreme views on varioius subjects, come on!<br> <br> (And I'll still bet someday, somehow, you'll see it and watch despite yourself! Unfortunately, there will be no way for me to collect, as I'll grant that you may hold out for quite some time.) <p><center> <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com">Barrow-Downs</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000">Bare Bones</a>~<a href="http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhir">Tar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~<a href="http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.html">Grand Adventures</a>~<a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.asp">The Hobbits</a>~<a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com">Tolkien Trail</a> </center></p> __________________ Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures!

04-10-2001, 10:16 PM	#35
the Lorien wanderer Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 276	<BR> Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred!</b><br><br> Actually I will watch the movie and enjoy it as LoTR-the movie. Not LoTR-the movie based on the book. And Peter Jackson is certainly making LoTr-the movie based on the book. I don't know if I'm quite comprehensible. <p>What if - what if this is as good as it gets?</p>

04-10-2001, 10:23 PM	#36
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,058	<BR> Re: LOTR is mightily good, but not sacred!</b><br><br> I really don't think so. I don't go to the movies very often,and I'm just not excited about this. Granted,I did see the 70's Bakshi (sp?) version. But being 4 years old at the time,I take no responsibility. <p>Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p> __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.