Riddles in the Downs

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So, does this need some hint?

I could give you even a very BIG hint, but I wonder if that's what should be done.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So, does this need some hint?

I could give you even a very BIG hint, but I wonder if that's what should be done.

Well, I haven't forgotten about this, I just don't have any better ideas. So I suppose a hint would help. I'm not sure if it calls for a big hint, but a small one would be nice.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Small one... okay.

I do not know how to phrase this, but let's say for example this and see whether it is enough of a hint

Very much of the riddle, or, very many things, phrases, which could be metaphorical, are in fact literal. Not all of them, but certainly more than half of the riddle can be understood literally

[Galadriel55]

Whatever I think, I keep returning in an endless cycle to the Silmarili - in particular the one of Earendil.

I know it doesn't really fit. Nothing I could think of does. I can make a whole list of things that don't fit.

To first of you, I'm just a tale, - Earendil was a mariner that tarried in Arvernien... or how does it go? Eventually it gets to the Silmaril part. So the "first" is some hobbit. Frodo, maybe. Or Sam.
told by the skies, as they unveil - told by the skies? Well he's seen in the skies often enough, but told?...
mysteries hidden long ago. - I suppose no one except for Elwing saw that Silmaril up close since Earendil went out to his long voyage in the sky...

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance. - I'm not really sure; this could refer to one of the times where Gil Estel was used as a reference point for direction (hence "bring")

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night, - to Earendil himself when he journeyed West
and in mine and the Other's flight
I save more than the tale did show. - when Elwing flew to Earendil's ship with the Silmaril. It's a great thing that she did too, because of all the possible conequences both at sea and in Beleriand that would have happened had she not done so. Yet she's just said to have flown onto Earendil's ship, and he is given all the credit for their journey.


The second stanza really ruins it. And that the skies tell the tale.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, the skies... How often do "skies" play any role in Tolkien's writings?

So as for your attempt, as you have expected, not really. This is much more off than your previous general analysis. In fact, it is very very much off, except for the fact that you happened to mention one related thing, which has not been mentioned on this thread before.

I would maybe say one more thing. Have you noticed that the whole riddle is written so that the subject addresses "you"? So the subjects present in the riddle are: the answer, then some "you" which is being addressed (and whose friends can be brought), then there happens to be "the first of you" (showing that the "you" probably should be a plural...); and then there is the one defined only as "the second one"; and then the third one, whom you don't know.

[Galadriel55]

It's much easier to say what it could mean than to find something that actually fits all the criteria.

So far I have considered and discarded Ents, Pippin, and Gollum. Pippin could kinda fit with a stretch - first=Theoden, second=Bergil, third?... but friends? and Bergil and Theoden didn't really know each other - so no, it couldn't.

And the skies... most of the time it's something like "the skies darkened with nightfall as the travellers walked on"...


This is pretty much not a guess but a post to show that I'm still here...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No, not Pippin, nor Gollum nor Ents.

Maybe you can try approaching it again from a different perspective. How many events that can be described as "terror's night" do we have in Tolkien? And then you can try dismantling the third stanza based on that and further, the others...

[Azaghâl]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes, the skies... How often do "skies" play any role in Tolkien's writings?

A most valid question, reminded me of the rain...

And not only do they play a role but they "unveil mysteries hidden long ago". It had to be the keyhole revealed by the setting sun, when it is litterally unveiled by the clouds at the last second.

Still the rest made no sense. Then there were the friends which I thought could be Dain and his army; and the Other which could be the Eagles, or their King as it is a singular, and well they did save the day, nearly.

I was getting near but I still didn't get the "I". It took me another week but now I think I have it and because it never harms to go back to the texts, this is my answer:

To first of you, I'm just a tale,
told by the skies, as they unveil
mysteries hidden long ago.

There on the grey stone in the grass was an enormous thrush, nearly coal black, its pale yellow breast freckled with dark spots. Crack! It had caught a snail and was knocking it on the stone. Crack! Crack!
Suddenly Bilbo understood.

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance.

'We may not understand him, but that old bird understands us, I am sure,' said Balin. 'Keep watch now, and see what happens!'
Before long there was a fluttering of wings, and back came the thrush; and with him came a most decrepit old bird.

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night,
and in mine and the Other's flight
I save more than the tale did show.

Suddenly out of the dark something fluttered to his shoulder. He started - but it was only an old thrush. Unafraid it perched by his ear and it brought him news. Marvelling he found he could understand its tongue, for he was of the race of Dale.

So in the end, the friends are the ravens, and the Other is Smaug. First, second and third are Bilbo, Balin and Bard who is unknown to the first two at this point of the story. I, of course, is the thrush. That is my interpretation.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes and yes indeed!! That was absolutely amazing job, Azaghâl! You deserve applause for solving this riddle after what seemed a bit like lost case. (I have already forgotten about the rain riddle, but I see that there remains some similar pattern in my riddles - whether it's for good or not remains a question )

I think the key here was really to start thinking about The Hobbit. It sort of frustrated me (though I can imagine similar frustration on the side of those who tried to guess) to see everyone once again starting to think about obscure things from the Silmarillion or who knows where, since I picked The Hobbit intentionally, as everybody was aware of the movie being released that year (when I posted the riddle originally... ), and once again I thought I was being too obvious (well, I think so every time and every time I am proven to be wrong).

So the "I" is, of course, the thrush; aside from what Azaghâl said, "to first of you, I'm just a tale..." was also supposed to allude to the hidden script written in Moon-Letters, where the thrush is really only mentioned in a rather cryptic way; the mysteries could also refer to the script itself, revealed only under the moonlight. "The first" could then be practically anyone of the Company, I was thinking of Thorin, since then the use of words "the first" could have double meaning, but it isn't necessary (the "you" of course is Thorin's company as a whole in any case). "The second" was meant to be specifically Bilbo, with the hint to his height (however the smallest, still bigger than the thrush), plus he was the one mistrustful about the thrush in the beginning. "His trust was of importance" because of what followed, so the thrush could be around and Bard could learn about Smaug's weak spot. The rest Azaghâl sums up correctly - the "terror's night" is indeed the night when Lake-Town is destroyed, the Other is Smaug, the person referred to is Bard; I could only add that with the line "I save more than the tale did show" I was thinking about The Quest of Erebor (and the Appendices to LotR) where Gandalf remarks that perhaps by killing the Dragon the Free Peoples were saved from one possible future ally of Sauron who could literally set the North ablaze. But that's all detail and all was supposed only to serve the identification; the main point is the thrush, and that is the correct answer.

I think Azaghâl rightfully deserves to post the next riddle Looking forward to it!