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Old 12-09-2004, 08:02 PM   #1
Morgul Queen
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White Tree **The Return of the King Extended Edition**

Yep! It's been released in New Zealand already. So what do you think? What could be improved? What doesn't work? What is awesome?

I'll post my own when I can convince my Mum to hand it over.
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Old 12-10-2004, 12:41 AM   #2
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I think the EE for RotK was both better and worse than the EE for TTT and FotR. Better, because it had more exciting scenes that people actually wanted to see. FotR didn't really have an outstanding extended scene. Galadriel's gifts, Gilraen's memorial, etc were all great, but nothing that really excites the viewer. Same with TTT. But RotK had scenes like the Voice of Saruman, Witch King vs. Gandalf, Corsairs of Umbar, etc. It had more new action-packed scenes than the first two.

However, the actual scenes themselves seem to flow more naturally for the first two. At least, it did for me. Gandalf and co. are just talking, and Saruman just pops up from the top of his tower talking to Theoden. I've already said elsewhere that it'd be impossible for them to hear Saruman (and vice versa) at that distance. They even whisper to each other and nobody seems to have any hearing difficulties. Also, you don't really see Theoden considering Saruman's offer, since he answers "no" immediately after Saruman finishes asking. I also disliked Saruman's fireball, but other than these, it was a great scene.

Gandalf vs. Witch King scene: I think it doesn't flow very naturally. Gandalf gets Pippin, starts running up, and a few seconds later the heroic music fades out and the WK appears. Then Gandalf also immediately starts saying "Go back to the abyss...". It just sounds like he's reciting it, IMO.
And I don't know...Gandalf just seemed so helpless against the Witch King. I was hoping for something more. I still hold firmly to the belief that Gandalf is more powerful than the WK, but even if PJ wants the Wiki to win, he could have had a better fight. The Witch King just raises his sword, and Gandalf's staff suddenly shatters into a hundred pieces. Sort of ironic, seeing how he broke Saruman's staff in the same way earlier on in the movie. I think that they should have had an actual fight if that's what PJ wanted, sort of like against the Balrog. The current way isn't action-packed enough to satisfy the action lovers, nor is it Tolkien enough to satisfy the purists.
Then Gandalf is lying on the ground, and as soon as the WK is about to kill him, the Rohirrim come. The thing I can't understand is, why doesn't he just stab Gandalf before leaving? He's obviously helpless on the ground. It would take no more than an additional 10 seconds.

I think I liked the other additions however. Overall, I'd give the EE an 8, in comparison to how it COULD have been.
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Old 12-10-2004, 05:42 AM   #3
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1420!

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So what do you think?
Well...I think I will appreciate it even more then the regular ROTK movie. Since it adds in some of my favorite scenes, the Houses of Healing and Saruman's famous voice.

Quote:
What could be improved?
I had a hope that Imrahil and Beregond would be in the movies, but I very much doubt that. I would have also liked to have seen the Dunedain. I think Imrahil and Beregond bring two different faces to Gondor that we did not see in the movies. The splendour and strength of the knights of Dol Amroth, then the compassion from Beregond. But oh well, can't get everything .

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What doesn't work?
Aragorn decapitatin all these people (Orc in Moria, Lurtz, and then he decapitates Gothmog). I've also heard he fight, and kills, the Mouth of Sauron, I hope that isn't so. What also doesn't work, and this really isn't about the EE...but....the fact that a man mentioned in one line (Gothmog) has more screen time then the feared general Witch-King, I find that sad.

Quote:
What is awesome?
What I listed up at the top. The fact that they will have Saruman's end and Saruman's voice (one of my favorite chapters), and they will show why the heck Eowyn and Faramir are together at the end.
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Old 12-10-2004, 11:33 PM   #4
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Aragorn decapitatin all these people (Orc in Moria, Lurtz, and then he decapitates Gothmog). I've also heard he fight, and kills, the Mouth of Sauron, I hope that isn't so.
Guess what? He decapitates the Mouth of Sauron too. The Mouth of Sauron is taunting him, when Aragorn slowly comes near him. Then he suddenly takes out his sword and slashes his head off. Not my favorite idea either, actually...they don't even fight. Aragorn just beheads him while he's in the middle of a sentence.
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Old 12-11-2004, 02:32 AM   #5
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I had to watch it last night, had to...but my late night has paid off for I was afraid of spoilers! Might I respectfully and nicely ask that anyone posts the word 'spoiler' at the top of their message if they are going to 'reveal' any surprises?

Have to say though, I was very pleased with Saruman's scenes (how could I not be, it was Chris Lee for goodnes sake ), and just wait 'til you see the extended Paths of the Dead ... now I have all those documentaries to watch and I'm hoping there will be something about Tolkien on there.
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Old 12-11-2004, 02:54 AM   #6
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White Tree

And I love the Houses of Healing. Faramir looks so sweet and Eomer hanging around Eowyn is too cute for words. By far my favourite scene.

Aragorn showing Sauron Anduril looks kind of cheesy. You know, Hi there! You've been hunting me for ages, how are you. Oh, BTW I have a new sword. You like?
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Old 12-11-2004, 06:45 AM   #7
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I had planned to open an "official" thread for the RotK EE on Tuesday, but since it's already out in places, and Morgul Queen has started this one, I'll just add the two asterisks to make it official. That way, we won't have the board cluttered with multiple duplicate threads. I will, however, add one new thread for discussing the extra features on the 4 DVD version. This one should be used primarily for the additions to the movie itself. Thanks!
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Old 12-11-2004, 08:39 AM   #8
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Lalwende, that will be great. The main scene I was looking forward to was Saruman's, I just want to see how that famous voice comes out. I'll take your word for it a I guess .
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Old 12-11-2004, 08:48 AM   #9
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Well, casting an entirely uncritical eye over it, as a Christopher Lee fan, it was perfect. And if I wasn't a fan, then considering he does not die in the manner of the books - which we knew anyway - then a good job was made of the idea. His voice was typically resonant, and I didn't find the whole 'talking from the top of Orthanc' odd at all.
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Old 12-11-2004, 02:04 PM   #10
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On the whole I think the EE is good; a couple of small scenes from the book who are gorgeous and some other scenes who also works.
But one thing I just can't stand. Why is PJ always making fun of Gimli.. WHY ?
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Old 12-11-2004, 09:08 PM   #11
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White Tree

Something that I noticed the first time I watched the EE was that, when Aragorn looks at the Dimholt Road, the King of the Dead appears. I'd never seen that before and other, similarily obsessed friends had never seen it before either. Was it in the Theatrical? Or was it added to the EE as a last minute thing?

Also, I have Houses of Healing Screen Caps along with several others. Would anyone be interested in them?
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Old 12-12-2004, 09:16 PM   #12
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Alright, here's my review of the EE. Spoilers ahead!!!!

Death of Saruman: Quite nicely done, even though the fireball was rather cheesy. Theoden gives Grima a second chance, Grima obviously wants to leave but Saruman slaps him down. Grima gets angry and grabs his dagger and stabs Saruman multiple times in the back. Legolas shoots Grima who falls back (no cheesy shots of Legolas missing Grima and Grima laughing before being hit by the arrow falling from the sky, so rest at ease, people). Saruman falls from the top of Orthanc and is impaled on some kind of wheel. The wheel starts to turn and Saruman is submerged under the water as the palantir falls out of his hand.


Denethor: I think we can all agree that PJ's portrayal of Denethor has some flaws and none of them are adressed in the EE. There 's an added discussion between Faramir and Denethor about Frodo and Denethor blames Faramir for sending the halfwitted Halfling into Mordor instead of bringing the Ring to Minas Tirith (some drool flies out his mouth as he yells at Faramir) before lamenting about losing Boromir after which his stumbles and falls on the ground. We then see him practically crying as he has a vision of Boromir walking towards him. The vision disappears and he snarls at Faramir to get out. We also get some snide comments from Gandalf talking to Pippin about Denethor being a madman and how the rule of Gondor was entrusted to 'lesser men' after the last of the kings. No mention is made of how Denethor was the next best thing after Aragorn and how he was an excellent Steward for many years. They even claim Denethor was more like Boromir instead of Faramir! No mention is made of the Palantir. Defintiely the lowpoint for me in the entire movie. Here we have an interesting grey character and he's turned into an incompetent, malignant, insane buffoon of a man. Too bad really, since John Noble is an excellent actor and could've easily played a Denethor with at least a shred of Numenorean dignity.


Mouth of Sauron: Quite a creepy guy. Has a very nasty grin which he uses a lot. He also makes weird sounds while showing off his tongue. His death is rather odd though. He taunts the fellowship about Frodo's painful end and Aragorn slowly rides up to him. The Mouth sees him and says it takes more than some old sword to make a king, after which Aragorn rather unceremoniously chops of his head. Gimli then cracks a joke about how this act apparently ends the negotiations after which the fellowship retreats back to their army as the Black Gate opens to reveal Sauron's legions.

Other things added are: The Crossraods, Houses of Healing, the Corsairs, Frodo and Sam's march with the Orcs, some extra scenes of Sam and Frodo crossing through Mordor and some other stuff.

Overall grade: 8/10

-1 because no DVD can be a 10 and some minor flaws and -1 for the continued butchering of Denethor. Overall this DVD is a must-have for any fan of the movies and I can heartily recommend it to anyone.

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Old 12-13-2004, 03:46 AM   #13
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Negative points first .

First of all, I don't understand why Jackson left out the Gandalf / witch king scene from the theatrical release. still, he may explain this on the commentaries that I've yet to watch.

The first thing I noticed when the film ended was where was the 48 minutes of new scenes? It just didn't feel like there was that much extra.

Houses of healing. Really, there was hardly anything at all. Just Aragorn squeezing some water over eowyn's face. And, what, 30 seconds between Eowyn and Faramir to fall in love?

And final negative point. I was desperatly waiting for any scenes of Merry's entrance into Minas Tirith and Gandalf's best line that Merry should have been brought inot the city in great honour. Also, Eowyn's line to eomer that Merry should be made a Knight of Rohan. Pity, really.

Anyway, enough negatives, now positives.

The Mouth of Sauron. Whow, best 'monster' in the film by a mile. Absoultely rivetting. The way he quickly snaps his head towards each person as they talk or make a sound. Really creepy. And hey, I don't mind him having his head chopped off by Aragorn.

crossroads. yay! although it's sam that noticies the shaft of light lighting up the king's head, not frodo. one of my favourite parts of the book back in.

aragorn with the palantir. really explains how he diverts sauron's gaze from the hobbits. I know this happens earlier in the book, but it seems to me to be faithful to what actually happens. although the evenstar smashing to pieces???? why?

voice of saruman. excellent. why are people complaining that theoretically they could not have heard saruman's voice from that far up. What, and they're ok with a magic ring making someone invisible????

Eomer explaining to eowyn that war wasn't for women and hobbits. ha ha ha, you silly fool, with one quick stab from a hobbit and a final blow from a woman, the fate of Middle-earth was saved. without the death of the witch king, minas tirith would probably be raised to the ground, and more importantly, the two orc hunters that frodo and sam stumbled upon would have no doubt found the hobbits and captured the Ring. end of story......

sam and frodo caught by the travelling orcs. pretty much as the book is, except I don't remember frodo picking a fight with Sam in the book!

What a lot of these scenes give us, as in TT, is explanations to some of the sticking points in the theatrical release. for example, Pippin now seing Minas Tirith in flames (rather than Aragorn later on) has more credence, as Gandalf is told by Saruman that 'something festers in the heart of middle-earth' (ie denethor / minas tirith) and Gandalf doesn't know at that point exactly where Sauron will strike. when pippin explains his vision, gandalf understands.

corsairs. at least he didn't waste too much time over this with a major fight scene. one quick shot of jackson taking a fall and it was over.

Lots of other points to mention, but we'll no doubt pick up on them over the next few weeks on these boards.
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Old 12-13-2004, 07:35 AM   #14
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1420!

Essex,
Quote:
Eomer explaining to eowyn that war wasn't for women and hobbits. ha ha ha, you silly fool, with one quick stab from a hobbit and a final blow from a woman, the fate of Middle-earth was saved.
You got to love irony .
Quote:
although the evenstar smashing to pieces???? why?
I'm guessing PJ needed a way to explain why Aragorn would die if he was giving Evenstar. Arwen gave Evenstar to Frodo. So, I think PJ just wanted to show, well, heck if Aragorn has Evenstar why does he die? I know I have been asked that many times.

Don't get me started on Denethor, that'll get me in a bad mood all day .

Overall though I enjoyed the extra scenes, I thought it tied up a lot of the loose ends.
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Old 12-13-2004, 08:20 AM   #15
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My overall impression from the EE is that it doesn't reconcile many of my disappointments that I had with the theatrical version. In fact, it has rather deflated my (already deflating) enthusiasm for the Trilogy, in general.

Some of my observations:

1. Voice of Saruman scene just didn't do it for me. There is no ominous atmosphere created and Saruman's death was pretty pathetic: they could have at least made it so that his body disappears and his spirit departs.

2. The swaggering Aragorn. I think the over-use of the Army of the Dead lessens the impact that Aragorn and co have in determining a successful outcome to the Battle of Pelennor. I think it would have been nice to show that there were many Gondorians who had been freed from the Corsairs and aid Minas Tirith at the last moment. Also, are Gimli and Legolas still playing their Orc-counting game? Talk about over-egging the pudding!!

3. The dialogue. To put it mildly: Inconsistent. At times moving and well-thought out, at other times, appalling and laughable!! Especially Gandalf's lines.

4. Denethor. Still no improvement and probably the worst characterisation in the whole trilogy. Awful.

5. Mouth of Sauron. I always imagined him to be an ominous, creepy character, more man than orc (which is how I feel he is portrayed in the movie). Instead it is almost comical the way he is portrayed. I wanted to laugh, not hold my breath in dreaded anticipation!

6. Gandalf Vs Witch King. I thought that this would have been one of the most dramatic scenes in the whole of the trilogy. I would have liked this scene to have been more closer to the book: Gandalf holding his own at the Gate and not being intimidated. It's ridiculous, after all that Gandalf has been through (including having his powers enhanced) that he should succumb so easily to the Lord of the Nazgul and have his staff broken. Come on!

7. Eowyn and Merry. I thought that they could have suffered a bit more in the Houses of Healing! I agree that Gandalf's words in the book when Merry is being led by Pippin would have been particularly poignant.
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:15 AM   #16
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I know I've already had my say, but let me point out one thing re the Witch King / Gandalf confrontation:


Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.


This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.

Gandalf's staff. IMO I believe this was broken to make the next scene with him confronting Denethor more of a contest than just being able to zap him with his staff. Remember Gandalf had to nab a spear off one of the guards to knock him down with.....Just my opinion and I'll be interseted to hear Jackson's point on this on the commentary if he has one.
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:26 AM   #17
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I thought anything with Denethor in it was done badly. The Pyre scene especially. I mean Denethor pours oil on himself, gets too close to a flame, goes up in flames, runs out screaming, like a maniac. What did you expect? You poured flammable liquid on yourself and caught on fire.

Quote:
Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.

This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.
Makes sense to me. As you've said, eventhough Gandalf wasn't a "man," his powers were limitted and he was shown in man form. We also, must remember, that the Witch-king is no chump either. Eowyn would have gotten annhilated if it wasn't for Merry. (Sorry Eowyn I still love you ).
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:45 AM   #18
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I know I'm posting again, but a thought came to me on Saruman.

Turin,
Quote:
1. Voice of Saruman scene just didn't do it for me. There is no ominous atmosphere created and Saruman's death was pretty pathetic:
Actually, I thought Chris Lee captured Saruman's voice perfectly. Exactly as I imagined it. After hearing his voice, I can see that Chris Lee truly understands Tolkien. Also, since PJ cut out the Scouring I thought the death of Saruman was really the best way they could have done it.

First-It's a metareference back to his earlier days as Dracula. Where several times Chris Lee is impaled on a wheel of spikes.

Second- If you think about it. Tolkien hates industry, hates machinery. Saruman is one that built up, he was like the "Germany," he was always mixing races, building industries, creating rings, in search for power. I think it's only natural that Saruman dies on his own machines that he constructed, a rather fitting end.
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:49 AM   #19
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I have a copy of the EE which I purchased last Friday, but I still haven't had a chance to watch it yet. Christmas preparations (Christmas tree, wrapping up presents etc) pretty much took up the whole weekend, and now I'm back at work ...

Still, I am savouring the anticipation.

One small, but important, point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Essex
Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.


This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.
The prophecy was to the effect that the Witch King would not be killed by a man, not that he could not be killed by a man. The Witch King was not therefore "impervious" to Gandalf. It was just that, according to the prophecy, the circumstances would never arise whereby a man would be in a position to destroy the Witch King.

Nevertheless, I doubt that any of the points that have been raised will impair my enjoyment of the EE. After all, these films tell a different story from the book, so inconsistencies between the films and the book don't really bother me. As long as they enhance the films as films and don't introduce any inconsistencies within the films, then I'll be happy. And, on that basis, it sounds as if I have a treat in store.
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Old 12-13-2004, 12:00 PM   #20
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Got to agree with comments regarding Denethor. Dreadful melodramatic acting (you half expect folks to yell Boo! Hiss! when he appears so much a pantomime villian does he appear) and no sense whatsoever of Tolkien's "noble mind overthrown"
And film Faramir...YACK. Total damsel in distress requiring rescuing from this or that at roughly hourly intervals...
Loved the extended Paths of the Dead sequences though and the added palantir scene with Aragorn is good too.
The EE is worth having but does not undo the general film-version mess made of Denethor's family.
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Old 12-13-2004, 08:16 PM   #21
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Nevertheless, I doubt that any of the points that have been raised will impair my enjoyment of the EE. After all, these films tell a different story from the book, so inconsistencies between the films and the book don't really bother me.
SpM, I'll try to make this from a movie critiquers point-of-view, and not a purists. I won't do any mentioning of what PJ left out from the books .

I thought the acting was splendid, and the scenery, that's what totally catches me about the movies. I thought PJ did a excellent job on those aspects. Even despite my dislike for the slaughter of Denethor's character, John Noble is still a great actor, and plays a really good scumbag you want to punch, like Gandalf....

The problem to me was a lack of character developement. I think PJ tried to focus in on the battle scenes (which are important, but that I don't think is Tolkien's point of the story). He tried to make the battle scenes a focus, and did not focus in enough on the Characters. It's not the fact that PJ missed some concepts that gets me mad (because after all we do miss some concepts, and are still debating over others). Just the simple fact that he made this an action-packed fighting movie, instead of a more sentimental, character focused story. The recent National Treasure movie is what comes to mind. I love this movie, and most people slam it because there is not enough explosions or killing. This, to me, is a wonderful movie, because each character brings their own personality to the table. And we see their character change to fit the conflict they are in. The dialogue in National Treasure, I thought was great. Anyway, I think I rambled on enough.
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Old 12-14-2004, 03:51 AM   #22
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I agree that there was an over-reliance on battle scenes. Too many battles undermine our (the audience) appreciation of the peril that the characters are confronted with.

There seemed to me to be a lack of depth to the movies. They were too dumbed-down for a start, which shows glaringly in RoTK (Elrond giving the sword to Aragorn, Denethor etc etc etc).

I think movie producers are so arrogant and conceited. They lessen the mood and atmosphere of LoTR to appease the so called "majority" of people who would not have read the book. What they haven't realised is that they have prevented LoTR from becoming an all-time great movie, rather than a slightly-above-average one. My opinion, of course.

Hence, they put in ridiculous things as Legolas the rodeo star; Gimli - making him into a laughing stock (not to mention the appalling jokes), just so that PJ & Co could exploit most people's perceptions of dwarves as being something from Snow White; Gandalf the half-wise, half-blundering buffoon (at times) etc etc. I could go on.

That's not to detract from the good stuff, and there is plenty of it. Though overall the lack of character depth is detriment to the whole "feel" of the movie.
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Old 12-14-2004, 11:51 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
IThe prophecy was to the effect that the Witch King would not be killed by a man, not that he could not be killed by a man. The Witch King was not therefore "impervious" to Gandalf. It was just that, according to the prophecy, the circumstances would never arise whereby a man would be in a position to destroy the Witch King.
OK, you seem to be better versed in the circumstances of this Prophecy (I admit I can't get my hands on when it's actually said - is it in the Council of Elrond or unfinished tales or what?)

But to add to my point of view, Mr Angmar himself is fairly sure of himself, but I suppose this could be misguided arrogance......

WK (to Eowyn) as he's about to kick her butt: (or so he thinks)

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Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!
I've no doubt missed the thread or forgotten about it where we've discussed this before. Or it may have been before my time....
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Old 12-14-2004, 12:53 PM   #24
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... is it in the Council of Elrond or unfinished tales or what?
It is in one of the Appendices. I haven't got the book to hand, but it's the section dealing with the final defeat of the Witch King of Angmar at the Battle of Fornost. The prophecy was made by Glorfindel, as he held Earnur back from following the retreating Witch King.

I don't think that it is made clear whether the Witch King was aware of the prophecy or whether he was simply displaying his arrogance at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Although the fact that he shows sudden doubt when Eowyn reveals her true identity might suggest that he was aware of it.

In any event, it might be said that Glorfindel's prophecy is irrelevant for the purposes of the film, since it is never mentioned. We only have the Witch King's declaration that no living man may hinder him. And that, I suppose, could be interpreted as indicating that he is impervious to any man (including, on the basis of your reasoning, Gandalf).
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Old 12-14-2004, 01:00 PM   #25
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If I'm not mistaken in ROTK, Gandalf mentions the Witch-King to Pippin. When Pippin and Gandalf are sitting out on the balcony, Pippin says (paraphrasing) "That's ok we have the White Wizard, that's got to account for something. (Sees a troubled Gandalf) What is it?"
Gandalf: "Sauron has yet to unleash his greatest foe, the Witch-King of Angmar, the one they say no living man can kill."

So possibly instead of Glorfindel saying it PJ has another credible character, a more familiar one everyone can connect with, Gandalf?
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Old 12-14-2004, 01:04 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Boromir88
Sauron has yet to unleash his greatest foe, the Witch-King of Angmar, the one they say no living man can kill.
You may well be right there. I hadn't picked up on it.

If that's the line, it backs up the "imperviousness" interpretation, rather than the "circumstances" interpretation of the books - where Glorfindel says something like: "His doom is far off and will not come by the hand of a living man". (Of course, it didn't stop impetuous old Earnur running off into Mordor when the Witch king issued his challenge though, thus leaving Gondor without a King. )
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Old 12-14-2004, 10:30 PM   #27
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it was passing

I, frankly, wasn't overly impressed with the EE.

So, positives:
~I really liked the discussion between Gandalf and Pippin after they storm out of Denethor's Hall. It seemed to fit in really nicely there, and I liked the dialogue. There was some dialogue added to this film that seemed out of place.
~The scene between Aragorn and Eowyn in the hall was nice, but unnecessary.
~I liked a lot of the smaller added stuff, such as Merry speaking to Aragorn as they watch Pippin and Gandalf ride off, Merry trying to get his pony to go while the Rohirrim are leaving, the look between Gandalf and Pippin during the drinking song... stuff like that.
~I cried a little when Eomer found Eowyn on the battlefield. Go Karl! I also enjoyed the short Houses of Healing part. I love the look when Faramir sees Eowyn, but I do wish there had been more between them.
~I love Frodo and Sam joining up with the orc bands.

There are other positives, but my brain is mush after that long.

Negatives:
~After all the build up, the Saruman scene didn't do it for me. I wanted more of the witty banter between Gandalf and Saruman, like in the books. The death was kinda cheesy too. I did, however, enjoy Bernard Hill's line delivery during this scene.
~The Gimli and Legolas drinking was cheesy and seemed out of place.
~Gimli tries to blow away the ghosts? Sometimes I think that too much "comic relief" is thrust upon poor Gimli.
~Why is Eowyn wandering the encampment with her helmet off... and so close to Theoden too? I would've loved to have seen her as Dernhelm, if that makes sense. Some great scenes were lost from the book.
~I liked the Houses of Healing scene with her and Faramir, but so much of it was lost... no mention of her being beautiful, no talk of Aragorn... no wedding
~I, personally, thought that The Mouth was kinda campy.
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Old 12-15-2004, 04:23 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Tigerlily Gamgee
I, frankly, wasn't overly impressed with the EE.

Negatives:
~After all the build up, the Saruman scene didn't do it for me. I wanted more of the witty banter between Gandalf and Saruman, like in the books. The death was kinda cheesy too. I did, however, enjoy Bernard Hill's line delivery during this scene.
~The Gimli and Legolas drinking was cheesy and seemed out of place.
~Gimli tries to blow away the ghosts? Sometimes I think that too much "comic relief" is thrust upon poor Gimli.
~Why is Eowyn wandering the encampment with her helmet off... and so close to Theoden too? I would've loved to have seen her as Dernhelm, if that makes sense. Some great scenes were lost from the book.
~I liked the Houses of Healing scene with her and Faramir, but so much of it was lost... no mention of her being beautiful, no talk of Aragorn... no wedding
~I, personally, thought that The Mouth was kinda campy.
At last! Someone who agrees with me!
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Old 12-15-2004, 05:11 AM   #29
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~I, personally, thought that The Mouth was kinda campy.
Campy?????

I thought he was the best, most 'frightening' monster in the whole trilogy.

If you saw the MoS down an alleyway, would your first impression be Campy? I don't think so! And I know what I would do in that situation. I'd run as fast as I could in the opposite direction, throwing women and children behind me!

(sorry, nicked that last line from Billy Connolly)
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Old 12-15-2004, 05:46 AM   #30
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Originally posted by Turin:
Quote:
My overall impression from the EE is that it doesn't reconcile many of my disappointments that I had with the theatrical version. In fact, it has rather deflated my (already deflating) enthusiasm for the Trilogy, in general.
I agree with everything that Turin wrote in post #15 !

About the dialogues being inconsitant: I think so too! My favourite parts in all the movies are the parts where Tolkien's original quotes are used. But, more often than not, these quotes are spoken by different persons and in different circumstances. It annoys me that the scriptwriters thought they could do better than Tolkien...

There are several things that puzzled me in the new scenes:
- Saruman tells Gandalf "What words of comfort did you give the halfling before you sent him to his doom?" This sounds like he knows about Frodo being sent to Mt.Doom with the Ring... but how would he know that, and Sauron doesn't ? Strange...
I enjoyed seeing and hearing Christopher Lee again, but the scene "didn't do it" for me either.

- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out...

- I am still wondering at the lack of military tacticts of the Gondorians. How can they be so blue eyed not to expect the enemy to attack from across the river ? And why do they let them land calmly instead of shooting them before they have landed?
"Faramir's sacrifice" indeed. It's more stupid than desperate to ride in a broad line towards the orcs lying in wait for them, so as to offer them the most possible targets!

- the avalanche of skulls in the Paths of the Dead was exaggerated and seemed therefore rather ridiculous to me.
I was astonished to see that when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli emerge from the paths, the river with the corsair's ships is immediately below them. Well, at least that explains why they could afford to let the horses escape before entering the paths! But even if they take a shortcut and do not make for Pelargir, Anduin would still be quite a long way off, as is shown on the map on the DVD-cover!!
Overall, ME in the movies seems much, much smaller than in the books.
- I, too, was mystified by the smashed "Evenstar". But then, the whole thing about Arwen dying and her fate being tied to the Ring etc never seemed logical to me.
- the "Houses of Healing" disappointed me too. No Athelas, no "healing hands" no "calling back" the spirit and Faramir & Merry aren't healed by Aragorn. I guess they just didn't want Aragorn to have supernatural powers..

-The „Mouth of Sauron“ seemed more disgusting than frightening to me. And I was disappointed about the changed conversation. What was the use of thrusting Frodo’s shirt at Gandalf and telling him that he had died under torment ? It seemed much more effective to me as it was in the book, where he implies that Frodo is in Sauron’s power but alive – that way he could try to blackmail them.


Like Tigerlily Gamgee I liked many of the small scenes that she mentioned and that enhanced the characters.
- My favourite new scene is "Pippin, guard of the Citadel" where he speaks with Faramir and is told that the livery was his as a boy. It's so nice to see those two become friends, and explains why Pippin will do everything to safe Faramir.

- I liked the scene with Faramir and Eowyn - it was very well done, although it was way too short! I had been looking forward to that so much! However, if those two weren't given more time and speech together, it was better to leave it at that, and not to show any kiss or talk of wedding.
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Old 12-15-2004, 06:01 AM   #31
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Campy?????

I thought he was the best, most 'frightening' monster in the whole trilogy.

If you saw the MoS down an alleyway, would your first impression be Campy? I don't think so! And I know what I would do in that situation. I'd run as fast as I could in the opposite direction, throwing women and children behind me!
It wasn't so much the way he looked, but the way he spoke. The trilogy has a huge lot of exaggerated "monster" voices, so to speak.
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Old 12-15-2004, 07:38 AM   #32
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For now, a few brief comments:

1) Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.

2) In the extended dvd, why did Legolas shoot Grima? Grima was in the
process of, successfully, whacking Saruman.

3) The voice of Saruman was still underplayed, Saruman was far too
high up, not on the balcony of Orthanc, and there was no confrontation/
temptation of others by his voice, and no express allusion to the power of
his voice.

4) And, while the Easter Egg wasn't as "surprising" as the first two, I am
zinking the German interviewer certainly sought to ask probing and
provocative questions of Elijah Wood.
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Old 12-15-2004, 07:45 AM   #33
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I bet you lot would all refer to a glass as half empty ...
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Old 12-15-2004, 08:14 AM   #34
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Quote:
- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out...
Why? Because she is a lady and t'would be unbecoming to share a chamber with all those men!

Quote:
Actually, I thought Chris Lee captured Saruman's voice perfectly. Exactly as I imagined it. After hearing his voice, I can see that Chris Lee truly understands Tolkien. Also, since PJ cut out the Scouring I thought the death of Saruman was really the best way they could have done it.
Going back to what Boromir 88 says about Saruman and Chris Lee, he did have the chance to meet Tolkien, and he also reads LotR every year so he is 'one of us'. i.e. a fan, and this shows in his performances in each of the films. Saruman truly comes to life in Lee's capable hands. This performance reminded me of his Wicker Man performance, both charming and treacherous.

About the power of his voice - surely one of the strengths of it is that he can get his words into the mind of any listener no matter how far away, so his being on top of Orthanc made sense to me.

The only disappointing thing was that his spirit did not rise to face Valinor and get rejected. But then this might have confused a fair few viewers so it's perfectly excusable. That was interesting though - the wheel of spikes; and he was the one who built the big ugly mill in Hobbiton, so a little link to the 'book version' there?
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Old 12-15-2004, 08:25 AM   #35
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1420!

I feel a long post coming on here:

Guinevere,
Quote:
I am still wondering at the lack of military tacticts of the Gondorians. How can they be so blue eyed not to expect the enemy to attack from across the river ?
I laugh everytime I see the archers at Minas Tirith, shooting the large wooden siege towers, and not the trolls. Then Gandalf has to tell them "aim for the trolls!"

Tuor:
Quote:
Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.
I can understand if Mr. Jackson wants to show some weakness in Denethor, since it would stress the fact that Gondor was in need of a King. I think the fact that in the books, that no enemy entered Minas Tirith, it was a nice defensive strategy by Denethor, and a good leadership quality of Gandalf. However, what people want to see this huge army come to the gates and be stopped in their track? Getting them in on the 4-5 levels adds suspense. Plus, it stresses that Gondor needs a King, where if people see this strategy by Denethor, that halts the Enemy in it's tracks people would wonder, was there a need for a king? The thing that gets me mad is Gandalf using the Steward as a punching bag, if Gandalf walked up to the Steward and wrapped him in the face, Guards would be all over him. It has no unity, or plausibility, that people would watch while their lord is getting beaten up. Even if he was a raging mad man, who knew? Pippin might have, Gandalf probably, but if his servants are still willing to listen to him when he says "Burn my son," and they don't stop him from getting cracked in the face, just puzzles me, there is no unity. The other thing I'm dissapointed in, I can see Gondor being made weak, and see Denethor being dumped upon, but they made him seem like a crazy mad man ever since he took rule. And made it seem that Denethor was the worst thing that ever came to Gondor. without the palantir just makes him look more like a jerk then he already was. I hope that spiel wasn't too long, onto the next thing.

Tiger,
Quote:
After all the build up, the Saruman scene didn't do it for me. I wanted more of the witty banter between Gandalf and Saruman, like in the books. The death was kinda cheesy too. I did, however, enjoy Bernard Hill's line delivery during this scene.
Good point about the banter. I imagined the scene as Saruman coming off as he's sorry in an attempt to manipulate Theoden. I wanted to see the Rohirrim cheering at the voice of Saruman, and then wonder in amazement when Theoden denied him. But that's how I pictured it and I don't find it dissapointing. I do not like how it's the almighty Legolas who kills Grima. I think Grima was one of the more pitable characters in Tolkien, and with his death in the book, I actually felt sorry for the guy. Now he will go down as the dirty scumbag that all great Legolas killed. But, that's how I view it.

With Saruman's death chech this post.
Origninally posted by me.
Quote:
First-It's a metareference back to his earlier days as Dracula. Where several times Chris Lee is impaled on a wheel of spikes.

Second- If you think about it. Tolkien hates industry, hates machinery. Saruman is one that built up, he was like the "Germany," he was always mixing races, building industries, creating rings, in search for power. I think it's only natural that Saruman dies on his own machines that he constructed, a rather fitting end.
I think those are the reasons behind why PJ did what he did. Whether you like them or not though, is up to you Also, without the scouring, I'm just glad that they EVEN had Saruman. I think consdidering the circumstances that was a fitting end for Saruman.

And also, see this thread for a nice discussion on Saruman's and Grima's death (PJ's way).

Quote:
Why is Eowyn wandering the encampment with her helmet off... and so close to Theoden too? I would've loved to have seen her as Dernhelm, if that makes sense. Some great scenes were lost from the book.
I would have preferred to have Eowyn disquised as Dernhelm too. However, we already know it's Eowyn by her voice and Merry so cleverly says "My lady." I too don't understand why Eowyn is walking around with her helmet off. She disguised herself, to sneak in without Theoden's approval, yet she's walking around "undisguised."

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Old 12-15-2004, 08:26 AM   #36
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half empty???

Not I, Saucy. I love the EE. Much praise to give, contrasted with one gripe. The glass is , hmmmm, ninety-five to ninety-eight percent FULL.

A Few Spoilers:

Eowyn's healing: Brief, but brilliant. Tribute to the fans, every bit of it. You had to know the book to know what was going on, to read behind the lines: Aragorn dips the cloth into the water: we know it's aethelas-water. He laves her brow with it: that's what you do with aethelas water. Then her cold, lifeless, very-grey arm-- her shield arm! We know why. And finally we watch her slowly wake-- we know why; there was a long struggle first, not but you couldn't take the time to explain it to non-bookies. Eomer is sitting very near, very concerned, while Aragorn does all this: but when Eowyn opens her eyes, who is she seeing? Is it Eomer? I'll have to watch it again to be sure. They never even explained that "the hands of a king are the hands of a healer." Therefore-- the whole scene was in a sense meaningless to those who hadn't read the book. It was a pure fan-tribute (not unlike Treebeard quoting Bombadil's lines to pseudo-Old Man Willow.)

That showed me (once again) how dedicated these film-makers (the whole team) are to making Old-school Tolkien fans as happy as they can. They already had their oscars, they could have just sat on their laurels. I'm glad they didn't.

Now for my one gripe: Black Gate, MoS. (I liked his portrayal just fine; I thought the arrogant, coquettish tiliting of his head was excellent. He thought he was just the cat's meow. Ugh! ) And I thought the whole Mithril shirt thing was well-done. But here's what bugged me. Aragorn, son of Arathorn, Elessar, Elfstone, the Heir of Isildur: breaking parley by murdering the messenger? Completely out of character. Where's the honor in that? No challenge, no warning, just-- whack. That breaks the code of war, and that is something Aragorn would not have done. And (while I'm at it) why was Gimli nudging Legolas' bow, supposed to be funny? Same thing. Breaking parley-- *not* cool.

Okay, end rant.

Otherwise: I loved it. Here are a few of my hilites:

Eomer's lecture: Good setup for what follows.
Merry talks to Eowyn: Very nice.
Balking Stybba: Excellent!!
Faramir & Pippin-- superb, I thought.
Magnificent: Rath Dinen. The sweep and scope of the city is fuller, more historical, and it brings TTT "Arwen at Aragorn's bier" scene momentarily back into focus.
Eomer's grief: too brief... but I'm glad it was there.
Houses of healing: did you SEE that garden-room? Or whatever it was, that rear-aerial shot, in the houses of healing? Gorgeous.
The orc with the Mithril shirt getting away-- Very key.
"You see, Mister Frodo? Some luck at last!" And then here come the troops. Great Irony.
Frodo picking a fight with Sam among the orcs: I liked it. It showed a Frodo that still had some brains left.
Sam's Pans, Sam's Pans! Oh, that was SO good.
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Old 12-15-2004, 08:35 AM   #37
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1420!

Quote:
Eowyn's healing: Brief, but brilliant.
My view on a lot of the extra scenes is the fact that I'm proud they actually added in those scenes! Whether they were brief or not. I do think the HoH was a necessary addition, doesn't make sense that Eowyn and Faramir are deadly sick, then with no explanation are all of a suddenly healed and glaring at eachother at Aragorn's coronation.

The fact that they have the Mouth, Saruman's ending, the HoH, makes me appreciate it. Saruman's voice is one of my favorite chapters from the whole book, I love when Eowyn is finally happy with a guy (darnit I thought I had a shot). I think just adding this stuff in we should be pleased, instead of griping about how there wasn't enough time spent on it. But, anyway, I'm done ranting again.

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Old 12-15-2004, 08:54 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
Originally posted by Turin: I agree with everything that Turin wrote in post #15 !

About the dialogues being inconsitant: I think so too! My favourite parts in all the movies are the parts where Tolkien's original quotes are used. But, more often than not, these quotes are spoken by different persons and in different circumstances. It annoys me that the scriptwriters thought they could do better than Tolkien...

There are several things that puzzled me in the new scenes:
- Saruman tells Gandalf "What words of comfort did you give the halfling before you sent him to his doom?" This sounds like he knows about Frodo being sent to Mt.Doom with the Ring... but how would he know that, and Sauron doesn't ? Strange...
I enjoyed seeing and hearing Christopher Lee again, but the scene "didn't do it" for me either.

- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out...

- I am still wondering at the lack of military tacticts of the Gondorians. How can they be so blue eyed not to expect the enemy to attack from across the river ? And why do they let them land calmly instead of shooting them before they have landed?
"Faramir's sacrifice" indeed. It's more stupid than desperate to ride in a broad line towards the orcs lying in wait for them, so as to offer them the most possible targets!

- the avalanche of skulls in the Paths of the Dead was exaggerated and seemed therefore rather ridiculous to me.
I was astonished to see that when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli emerge from the paths, the river with the corsair's ships is immediately below them. Well, at least that explains why they could afford to let the horses escape before entering the paths! But even if they take a shortcut and do not make for Pelargir, Anduin would still be quite a long way off, as is shown on the map on the DVD-cover!!
Overall, ME in the movies seems much, much smaller than in the books.
- I, too, was mystified by the smashed "Evenstar". But then, the whole thing about Arwen dying and her fate being tied to the Ring etc never seemed logical to me.
- the "Houses of Healing" disappointed me too. No Athelas, no "healing hands" no "calling back" the spirit and Faramir & Merry aren't healed by Aragorn. I guess they just didn't want Aragorn to have supernatural powers..

-The „Mouth of Sauron“ seemed more disgusting than frightening to me. And I was disappointed about the changed conversation. What was the use of thrusting Frodo’s shirt at Gandalf and telling him that he had died under torment ? It seemed much more effective to me as it was in the book, where he implies that Frodo is in Sauron’s power but alive – that way he could try to blackmail them.


Like Tigerlily Gamgee I liked many of the small scenes that she mentioned and that enhanced the characters.
- My favourite new scene is "Pippin, guard of the Citadel" where he speaks with Faramir and is told that the livery was his as a boy. It's so nice to see those two become friends, and explains why Pippin will do everything to safe Faramir.

- I liked the scene with Faramir and Eowyn - it was very well done, although it was way too short! I had been looking forward to that so much! However, if those two weren't given more time and speech together, it was better to leave it at that, and not to show any kiss or talk of wedding.
Guinevere, you speak for me too! I agree about some of the more um...illogical choices that PJ & C0 made and definitley that some of the really good scenes were just too short.
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Old 12-15-2004, 08:59 AM   #39
Turin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin
For now, a few brief comments:

1) Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.

2) In the extended dvd, why did Legolas shoot Grima? Grima was in the
process of, successfully, whacking Saruman.

3) The voice of Saruman was still underplayed, Saruman was far too
high up, not on the balcony of Orthanc, and there was no confrontation/
temptation of others by his voice, and no express allusion to the power of
his voice.

4) And, while the Easter Egg wasn't as "surprising" as the first two, I am
zinking the German interviewer certainly sought to ask probing and
provocative questions of Elijah Wood.
You echo some of my thoughts, Tuor! I'd forgotten about my uncomfortable feeling when Legolamb.. sorry LEGOLAS shoots Grima.
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Old 12-15-2004, 09:01 AM   #40
Boromir88
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1420!

The point I'm trying to get at is I truly think PJ read and understood LOTR. PJ's explanations for why he changed what he did, are reasonable. Whether they are to appeal to a larger fan base. To, what's the term, make LOTR "dumber," to emphasize certain aspects of the movie. I think PJ understood a lot of concepts in Tolkien, I also think he misinterpretted some of Tolkien's points (focusing in on the battles for one), but we all make misinterpretations from time to time. And we are STILL, here debating over, "What Tolkien is meaning to say/show us here?"

One thing for sure, we can all credit Mr. Jackson for having Tolkien placed back as one of the top selling authors of the century. That is the number one reason I enjoy the movies, the matter is, PJ got more people to pick up Tolkien books and read them .

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