Querkey Movie Physics

[Silmiel of Imladris]

Ok I am probably not the only one that noticed these things so lets talk about them. In the movies when Legolas has his cloak on there must be a hole in the cloak for it to hang freely like it does despite having his quiver strapped on his back. One strap goes over his shoulder on top on the cloak but the one connected to it comes back under the cloak so there must be a hole in it somewhere. The same goes for the hobbits' backpacks and the elves at helms deep. Have any of you noticed other wierd things things like this that are used in the movies to make them more 'perfect'?

[The Saucepan Man]

Personally, I see these as rather minor compared with the physical impossibility of Legolas's backswing onto his horse before the fight with the Hyena/Lemming-riders.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I have never thought about that cloak thing.<P>One thing that disturbed me was Legolas's quiver changing from right side to left side and back again. Or is it one and the same, on what side the guiver is?

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I think the hobbits' cloaks can be worn under the pack without holes. They just can't be wrapped around the body when in that configuration because of the straps.<P>When you mentioned physics, I thought you were referring to Gandalf being able to fall faster than his sword and "catch up with it" during the first scene in TTT. A wizard of many talents, that one. <P>-Lily

[Lady Snickerdoodle]

Legolas is an elf- he can get away with it. its a walking on top of snow thing. on the other hand, i agree about the hobbits and evry1 else. <BR>Anyway, the part in TTT at Helms Deep, when Gandalf comes with the rest of the rohirrim, the horses charge down that 89 degree hill... That bothered me so much. It was even worse than the stampede in the Lion King.<P>but i really liked legolas's horse-swinging stunt. did he do that himself or did he have a stunt double? im guessing no...

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I am assuming that in the charge scene it was a trick of the camera. I had a horse for eight years so I can tell you horses will not run that fast down a hill. They take baby steps instead.

[Theron Bugtussle]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR><I>Dancing Spawn:</I> One thing that disturbed me was Legolas's quiver changing from right side to left side and back again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I didn't notice that myself. That may be how they are able to simulate the never-ending arrow supply. In the book battles, Legolas is regularly scrounging orc arrows.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Anyway, the part in TTT at Helms Deep, when Gandalf comes with the rest of the rohirrim, the horses charge down that 89 degree hill... That bothered me so much.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>See and I loved that shot. They were set up to emulate waves crashing down upon the orcs in much the same way as real waves came crashing down at Isengard. It was stunning.<P>Just to show, one man's poison is another's candy (or something like that ).<P>H.C.

[Finwe]

They probably did that charge down the slope on the computer. There is no way that real horses could have done that, and remained alive and hale at the bottom of the slope. All I wanted to know was, how the heck Eomer managed to not turn a complete somersault when he crashed into the Orcs? I mean, he must have been going at a steady clip. Any other man would have probably gone flying off his horse at a shock like that.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

I never thought about the sword and stuff...but there's gravity here, so Gandalf would fall faster. If you drop a feather and a hammer in Earth, the feather is going to fall slower.<BR>About Legolas swinging on his horse: when they filmed Leggy jumping onto his horse he fell off and broke a rib , so PJ decided to have some CGI and have him roll onto it. So no, it's not Leggy himself, nor is it a stuntman.

[HCIsland]

Sorry, I'm a physics major so I've got to speak up.<P>It is physically impossible for Gandalf to catch up with the sword. It's not a question of weight but of aerodynamics. It is impossible for him to reduce his air resistance to the same point as the sword, but hey, the guys a wizard! Perhaps he can create some form of thrust to push him down. <P>While we are at it, it's also impossible for Legolas to walk on the snow. This is a pure question of surface pressure. There are only two ways to reduce surface pressure, increase surface area or decrease weight. Legolas' feet look pretty standard issue to me and I can't imagine he actually weighs much less that his human counterparts. If he did he would have all kinds of issues fighting, not to mention when the wind picks up. In order to explain how Legolas can walk on the snow, you have to come up with some way he can control is weight (other than dieting).<P>In truth, I find all this stuff rather nitpicky and silly for a fantasy movie.<P>H.C.

[Ainaserkewen]

Thank you HC, I was just about to say that...I'm no physics major but I did watch that one episode of Popular Mecanics for Kids(what can I say, I love that show)<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I had a horse for eight years so I can tell you horses will not run that fast down a hill. They take baby steps instead. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think war horses would act differently than pet ones, whether they were trained to do so or not. Plus, theres the certain "je-ne-sais-quoi" about Rohan's horses. A certain trust or confidence that these spectacular horses have, that make them "smarter than your average bear(horse)". <P>On a magical note, being a wizard, couldn't Gandalf get himself going faster with his super-natural powers if he wanted to? I know this is a physics thread, but LOTR is a fantasy story.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If he did he would have all kinds of issues fighting, not to mention when the wind picks up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Like I said before, it's just plain magic that these kinds of things can happen. You must believe! Plus JRR Tolkien himself wrote that Legolas(and all elves in particular) have lighter footfalls, thus being able to walk on snow. Personally, I think it's cool, wish I could walk on snow...<p>[ November 18, 2003: Message edited by: Ainaserkewen ]

[Mattius]

Personally I have never really noted any of those things but one thing that does bother me is in TTT. When Frodo and Sam are near the Black Gate and Sam is stuck in the rocks Frodo uses his cloak to hide themselves. However, his backpack is on over his cloak and then when the soldier comes to check its not there!!!

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Legolas is an elf - he can get away with it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So elves can pass their limbs through their bodies? Walking on snow, I can live with, but I still find physically impossible contortions a little bit difficult to accept, even in a fantasy world.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Anyway, the part in TTT at Helms Deep, when Gandalf comes with the rest of the rohirrim, the horses charge down that 89 degree hill... That bothered me so much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There is also the little issue of how the front line (Gandalf, Shadowfax, Eomer and all) didn't get implaed on all those pikes when they reached the bottom. <P>It does amuse me when people rail against Gandalf catching up Glamdring, but overlook the fact that he is able to perch quite happily on a being composed of molten flame (well, perhaps happily is not the word, but you know what I mean). <P>As HC said, he's a wizard (one of the Maia no less) and this is a fantasy world.

[Lady Snickerdoodle]

I wanna watch the movies again to see Legolas's alternating quiver! Oh yeah, I once heard that if you pay attention, you see his eyes switch from blue to brown and I think green too but I'm not sure. He must have had issues with the color contacts. Oh well, the elf excuse again- maybe elves are supposed to have changing eyes. But aren't color contacts not supposed to work well on brown eyes...?

[Ainaserkewen]

The eye changing colour thing, thats just ridiculous. His eyes do change colour too much. It used to bug me, but since no one has any explanations for it that work for me, I just forgot about it. The only thing I have to say about that is that in the shadows I guess they look brown and when the light is shinning, they're blue.

[mark12_30]

Dear HCIsland:<P>Gee, how nice. I was a physics major too. You wrote:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It is physically impossible for Gandalf to catch up with the sword.<BR>... <P>While we are at it, it's also impossible for Legolas to walk on the snow. <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>While both your points are valid from a Newtonian standpoint, from a Tolkienian standpoint I must disagree with the latter statement. Tolkien clearly and specifically SAID that Legolas walked AND ran lightly on top of the snow. He even described his fancy elvish shoes at the time. If you accept The Ring, you can accept Legolas on the snow.<P>However, I do not recall any statement by Tolkien that Gandalf's rate of descent outstripped his sword's rate of descent.<P>(Personally, I had always imagined that the Balrog (whether accidentally or intentionally) gave a few nasty yanks on the whip and thus on Gandalf's ankle. increasing his rate of descent. )<P>(EDIT):<P>The norses running down the hill: they filmed it on a gentler slope and then adjusted the angle. That was published ... somewhere... but I can't remember where.<p>[ November 19, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It is impossible for him to reduce his air resistance to the same point as the sword, but hey, the guys a wizard! Perhaps he can create some form of thrust to push him down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Or, there's always the possibility that Gandalf is exerting some sort of wizardry that slows the sword's descent or creates some sort of magnetic pull on it toward him! Or maybe he just said "Accio Glamdring!" <P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta

[mark12_30]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Or maybe he just said "Accio Glamdring!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lyta RULES.

[Mattius]

So can no-one solve my bag over cloak riddle?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There is also the little issue of how the front line (Gandalf, Shadowfax, Eomer and all) didn't get implaed on all those pikes when they reached the bottom. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I thought the light from Gandalf's staff, along with the rising of the sun over the hill blinded the orcs and had them raise their pikes. I didn't find that improbable. It ties in with the whole "look for me at dawn" statement and is a strategy that was used by armies (sun glinting off shields, etc.).<P>Although I love elves I thought they could have done a much more realistic job of the Legolas jump onto the horse. I also hated the snowboarding (sheildboarding?) down the stairs thing.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> While both your points are valid from a Newtonian standpoint, from a Tolkienian standpoint I must disagree with the latter statement. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That was the point I was trying to make. It's all rather silly, as the last line of my post was trying to express.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In truth, I find all this stuff rather nitpicky and silly for a fantasy movie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you are going to go after Gandalf, then where do you stop? If you are going to accept wizards, orcs, elves and ents, this stuff seems a pretty small step.<P>As for the cloak issue. I'm not convinced at all that there are holes in the cloaks. It looks to me like Legolas wears his quiver over his cloak which, unless I'm missing something, solves the whole problem.<P>Editted to add: Actually, Mark, when you said you were a physics major and said my point was valid from a "Newtonian viewpoint", I thought you were going to go relativistic on me and use Einstein to explain the stunt. <P>H.C.<p>[ November 19, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

Thanks for your cheer of approval, <B>Helen</B>!Actually I prefer, like the evil universe Mr. Spock, to be second in command and thus a lesser target! As for nitpicky movie physics, <B>HC</B>, it's FUN! I'm having a lot of fun batting the Music of the Ainur back and forth on the "Physics of the Ainulindale" thread as well. Sometimes I destroy topics that way though, like a dog with a bedraggled slipper that used to be quite attractive! <P>Anyway, as for Gandalf and wind resistance, could heat-based updraft currents have an effect in this realm? Or coefficient of heat expansion in the metal, thus expanding the area Glamdring takes up...I know that's far fetched! Its only microscopic after all...but you never know. When in doubt, invoke, "Elvish art!" I'm still betting on summoning charms though! Seems the least error prone, even if I am mixing my references!<P>And <B>Mattius</B>, even if the backpack were underneath the cloak, the cloak could be turned back on itself inside out and drape over the pack as well as the hobbits. It would be a bit twisty and bunched against Frodo's back, but I don't see why it couldn't happen if my spatial sense isn't totally wrecked...its always possible such a thing would cause Frodo to be totally exposed...hmmm...have to watch it again or experiment with my own backpacks and cloak!<P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta

[Mattius]

Lyta, I now have an image of you in your back garden with a half buried friend/relative desperatly trying to see if you can swing your cloak inside out over you and keep your backpack hid. <P>Lyta RULES.<p>[ November 19, 2003: Message edited by: Mattius ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

Wow, thanks, <B>Mattius</B>! Just don't go starting to do the Wave or anything! I can't do disco and couldn't even begin to compete with Boromir, although I do love squid! (really!) <P>Actually, I put on my cloak and then put on a backpack and it was blinged uncomfortable! The backpack constricted my arms and shoulders under the cloak and my husband told me it would be much better to wear the backpack UNDER the cloak, so as to avoid all that trouble! I did manage to whip the bottom ends of the cloak over the backpack, however, and if I had been in a depression or hole like Frodo and Sam, I suppose the earth would have done the rest of the job. I can imagine Frodo scrunched up like a caged chicken though! :P<P>I guess Elijah Wood didn't want to play the Hunchback Hobbit of the Morannon! <P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> As for nitpicky movie physics, HC, it's FUN! I'm having a lot of fun batting the Music of the Ainur back and forth on the "Physics of the Ainulindale" thread as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree, it is fun. I just got the feeling some folks for complaining about this stuff.<P>As for the Physics of the Ainulindale, I almost forgot about this crazy thing I wrote some time ago for a thread like that one.<P><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/hcisland/stringtolkien.htm" TARGET=_blank>Music Of The Ainur And The Structure Of Matter</A><P>Trust me, I have as much fun as the next guy with this kind of stuff.<P>H.C.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I thought the light from Gandalf's staff, along with the rising of the sun over the hill blinded the orcs and had them raise their pikes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But then again, faced with a bunch of armed horsemen bearing down on me at speed, my reaction would be to set my pike firmly towards them, bliding light or no blinding light.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If you are going to go after Gandalf, then where do you stop? If you are going to accept wizards, orcs, elves and ents, this stuff seems a pretty small step. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>... or sentient foxes.

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As for the Physics of the Ainulindale, I almost forgot about this crazy thing I wrote some time ago for a thread like that one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah yes, <B>HC</B>I DO remember that article and read it again recently while preparing another post to resurrect the Physics of the Ainulindale thread. I am not too savvy on String Theory, but your article made it clearer, and I believe you said you had read through "The Elegant Universe," which is something I've meant to read and have never gotten to. The idea of an elegant universe appeals to me, and I have a nagging tendency to wish for aesthetically pleasing concepts in my science, as I'm currently arguing with <B>Aiwendil</B> in that thread. <P>I must say that hill looked awfully steep in TTT for Eomer and his Riders as well, but I can understand how appearances can be deceiving, having many such 'hills' around here that, nevertheless, lend themselves to a fast descent if one does not trip on the brambles!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I thought the light from Gandalf's staff, along with the rising of the sun over the hill blinded the orcs and had them raise their pikes. I didn't find that improbable. It ties in with the whole "look for me at dawn" statement and is a strategy that was used by armies (sun glinting off shields, etc.).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><B>Faenaduial</B> has a good point here as well, and perhaps also, that steep angle could work for them, as the Orcs may set for a straight angle and the Riders may grind the spears into the ground as a result. (Check me on my spatial details here again!) <P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta

[Essex]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>However, I do not recall any statement by Tolkien that Gandalf's rate of descent outstripped his sword's rate of descent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Of course he didn't, as Gandalf fell into the chasm at the same time as his sword in the book. In the movie version, this is what is known as a 'mistake'!<P>PS The Elegeant Universe. I haven't read this but saw a documentary the other week on channel 4 which is based on the book. As soon as I heard the superstring theory I thought straight away of the Music of the Ainur and realised that Tolkien got THAT right as well! What a genius!

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

What is the superstring theory thing?<P>I would have thought that Frodo's backpack vanishing was a mistake too...there was an extremely long list of mistakes in the first one, so I wouldn't be surprised by some in the second too!<P>Oh yeah, and...<P>Lyta RULES.

[Gilthalion]

<B>CATCHING GLAMDRING:</B><BR>True enough, the aerodynamics of the fall would have made catching up to the sword a physical impossibility.<BR>~~~Fortunately, Gandalf was able to call upon his mutant power of magnetism to summon the sword to his hand.<P><B>THE STEEP CAVALRY CHARGE:</B><BR>How did the Rohirrim get their horses to charge down such a steep slope and keep their saddles at the bottom?<BR>~~~These horses were indeed akin to the mearas and so were hardier and more sure of foot than other horses. The Rohirrim were a cavalry practiced in the arts of war and were able to use the momentum of their descent to knock aside the outthrust spears of the orcs and to charge right through them.<P>Another matter regarding the angle of the charge is that the Sun had to also be at this angle, making it rather later in the morning than dawn.<BR>~~~Gandalf must have changed the angle of refraction of the atmosphere in the vale.<P><B>ELVISH CLOAKS:</B><BR>The packs actually ARE under the Elvish cloaks. Woven into the fabric with the seemingly magical arts of the Elves is the ability of the cloak to take on the appearance of stone, or wood, or grass, or soil, or dirt, or backpacks...

[Silmiel of Imladris]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think war horses would act differently than pet ones, whether they were trained to do so or not. Plus, theres the certain "je-ne-sais-quoi" about Rohan's horses. A certain trust or confidence that these spectacular horses have, that make them "smarter than your average bear(horse)". <P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I talked to a professional horse trainer about this a long time ago when it came to cautious horses. A smart horse would take it's time down the hill so it wouldn't tumble over head first. He said that sometimes the more hesitatent the horse is the safer it is to ride. My horse was very surefooted but she still took her time down even a small hill. It was not that she didn't trust me, quite the opposite, for I was still able to ride her after she went blind. In my opinion she was cautious in order to keep me safe. In the story itself the running down the hill is believeable but I think it was a trick of the camera for the film's sake. I am not saying it is not possible for a horse to run down an incline like that but most of them would'nt do it. To quote the horse trainer, "Horses are not given enough credit sometimes, for they are trying to protect you too not just themselves." Sorry I will stop now I just go off on these things. <p>[ November 23, 2003: Message edited by: Silmiel of Imladris ]

[Finwe]

If you look closely, the entire line of Orcs in the front drop their pikes and shield their eyes just as Gandalf, Eomer, and the Rohirrim crash into them, because the Sun suddenly becomes blindingly visible above the Riders once they reach slightly leveler ground. So there was nothing quirky involved there, you just need to have a good, quick eye.

[The Saucepan Man]

But when I <I>looked closely</I>, my <I>good quick eye</I> saw that, when the front line of the charge reached the Orcs, their pikes were still raised in front of them. <P>I would have thought that this would make things pretty uncomfortable for Shadowfax and the other horses in the front line.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Anybody see "The Man from Snowy River"? That had a horse going down an incredibly steep hill and it was just about sitting on its haunches. The ride of Eomer's Eored must have been digital. No sane person would do that to a bunch of real horses for a movie these days. (In the "Charge of the Light Brigade" days, yes. Now, no.)<P>Silmiel, you're right. While watching TTTX I looked carefully at Sam's cloak, and it does have a hole in it. Good eye! I guess they did that so it would hang better, like the way the chain the Ring is on gets longer and shorter depending on the needs of the scene.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The packs actually ARE under the Elvish cloaks. Woven into the fabric with the seemingly magical arts of the Elves is the ability of the cloak to take on the appearance of stone, or wood, or grass, or soil, or dirt, or backpacks...<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Gilthalion, you rock! <P>I don't find it weird that people pick on things in a fantasy movie. Suspension of disbelief is really important, *especially* in a fantasy movie where impossible things are happening all the time. Don't people love Tolkien because he made ME as realistic and internally consistent as possible? When one's belief is already stretched to the limit, it just takes one more little thing to completely jar one out of a happy belief state and into "waitaminute, THAT can't happen!"<P>Anyway, none of us claimed to be logical about the things that bother us. My friend and I were complaining about the wooden eye in Pirates of the Caribbean, to which my other friend replied: "Oh, right. You can accept that there is a CURSED SHIP CREWED BY THE DEAD, but you get upset because a wooden eye moves even though it has no muscles attached to it?!" Yup. <P>-Lily<p>[ 5:44 PM November 26, 2003: Message edited by: Lily Bracegirdle ]

Gandalf was able to catch his sword because it was Frodo's dream

[Silmiel of Imladris]

Here is another thing I just thought of. In Rivendel and Lothlorien most of the rooms have some kind of open porch or balcony without doors or windows. If you look closely at pictures of Rivendel you will notice that the whole front of what looks to be the great hall is an open porch. Now if we are talking real life how would they keep these places heated in the winter?

[Mooncalf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you are going to go after Gandalf, then where do you stop? If you are going to accept wizards, orcs, elves and ents, this stuff seems a pretty small step.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, but you accept wizards, etc in fantasy because the story has a realistic basis. If everything in fantasy were utterly fantastic, what would be the point in reading it??

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I don't think most of Rivendell or Lorien is heated. Elves supposedly don't mind the cold. Orlando Bloom said something about how he had to wear the same thin clothes in the snow when everyone else got to bundle up because "he was the elf."<P>-Lily

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If everything in fantasy were utterly fantastic, what would be the point in reading it??<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Agreed. Hence my annoyance over Legolas' bodily contortion. But I don't have any problem with an angelic being catching up with his sword as he falls.