Banning Tolkien, some questions

[Lalaith]

Please forgive me, dear moderator, for starting a new thread on this subject but I have specific questions on this topic which I fear would get lost on the other thread, which is now very long.
My questions are directed at those posters who have direct experience of Tolkien being banned at schools they attend or know well.
*What kind of schools are they? I don't really know what 'parochial school' means, perhaps someone could explain.
*Are they all in the US?
*What *specific* grounds are given for banning his works, if any?
*What other books are banned?
*What form does the banning take - are the books extracted from the library, are you forbidden to take them onto school premises, or does the ban also extend to off-school? *What would happen to you if you broke the ban?
I'd be very interested to hear your replies...

[Eruwen]

*What kind of schools are they? Well, I go to a private school Most public schools should not have this problem.

*Are they all in the US?Not sure about this one. My school is in North Carolina, but there could be others throughout the world who deal with this problem.

*What *specific* grounds are given for banning his works, if any? Well, my principle was banning them because he mistakened them for Harry Potter. Harry Potter at my school is highly looked down upon because of the witchcraft and magic. They think we'll start worshipping Satan or something by reading those books. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

*What other books are banned? As I have mentioned, Harry Potter. Any other books having to deal with magic or witchcraft in any way would be banned. {Good thing my principle doesn't know about Gandalf yet.}

*What form does the banning take? We are not allowed to bring them to school at all. They were taken out of our library, and we havn't ever discussed works like this in class so that problem is out.

*What would happen to you if you broke the ban? My guess is I would have a long discussion in my principle's office about why he thinks it is wrong, I would probably get demerits if I was caught reading them again at school, and after that, I would probably get a detention with a parent-teacher conference. {Yeah, it would be strict.}

Just to add another note on the matter, my school also does not allow us to read any kind of mythology as a class assignment. The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis has been an exception because it has a Biblical meaning behind it. But recently, we have had warning to not wear any kind of clothing related to mythology at school. {This includes dragons, unicorns, phoenixes, or anything else relating to fantasy.} My school is just really tight on what they allow us to do. Not every school is like this. You shouldn't have to worry about your school becoming like this.

[Lalaith]

Thank you very much for your answers Eruwen. Unfortunately, my school days are long behind me so I'm not worrying about experiencing any bans directly... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] But I am interested in this phenomenon of censorship and the reasons behind it. Slightly off topic but what you have to say about banning mythology is very interesting. Unicorns, you know, were used in mediaeval Christian symbolism, as a token of purity...and of course, there is a flying horse in CS Lewis (a particularly delightful one as I remember).
If anyone else has such experiences, please do post and answer my questions if you can. Thanks.

[Elanor]

I am a teacher in the UK, and I have never heard of books being banned here. As far as I'm aware, we don't have the ability to do that. I know that our library has a restricted section though, and books with explicit sex are only allowed to be lent out to Year 10 and over, unless the kids have a letter from the parent.
I am very strongly against banning books in any way. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[Annúnlótëiel]

I am so sorry to hear about your strict school! It really angers and saddens me for people to judge things that they know nothing of. It is a big mistake a "very" big mistake.

But do not fear...Mark Twain's famous book The adventures of Huckleberry Finn was the "most banned book in history" Oh so I learned in English. But now many people read it for english (Like I did)

I think religious people freaking out over "magic" is ridiculous. I am sorry but it just doesn't make sense to me. I am religious but I don't have a problem w/it and I accept all people. Oh well.

[HCIsland]

But I am interested in this phenomenon of censorship and the reasons behind it.

Because it's easier to find scapegoats than it is to deal with problems.

It's that great Dire Straits line, "They're pointing out the enemy to keep you deaf and blind."

H.C.

[ April 30, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Eruwen- wow. Why is your school that strict? Is it a religious school or something? I go to a slightly religious school and no books have been banned here, but I know that often Catholic schools are often very strict and since I’m not Catholic or even Christian I can’t really say that on any authority [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] , only on rumour. (Also- other than Huckleberry Finn, I think one of the most banned books in the USA was The Catcher in the Rye by J. D. Salinger, because of all of the swearing and mentioning of subjects which are, errm, inappropriate for daily conversation, I should think, but my teacher saw me reading that and didn’t bat an eye, just mentioned it being a good book [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] .)

~Menelien

[ April 30, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[Lalaith]

Thanks for all your replies.
Eruwen, I read your posts on the first thread, and I think I found the school your headmaster (principal) had been at before. Here's something from their promotional literature which may explain his love of censorship:

OUR SEPARATIST POSITION

Absolutely no drinking, smoking, or dancing is allowed. No student is allowed to attend Hollywood movies, play cards, or participate in other questionable amusements. We do not fellowship with liberals, but instead take a strict separatist stand from the world and apostasy.

It's interesting, the use of "fellowship" as a verb, isn't it? If he read Tolkien, he might realise it was actually a noun....


[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[HCIsland]

Ouch. The guy's scarey.

Movies and playing cards, eh? Certainly the devil's toys. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

H.C.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I think he meant gambling... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

...or dancing...

What the hell?

~Menelien

[kittiewhirl1677]

I know a lot of schools ban books. My school doesn't ban any books, only magazines such as playboy which I'm sure you can all understand-I mean, it IS middle school...

Anyway, I really hate people who ban books just because they think there's devilry or magic or whatever in them. I'm not trying to offend anyone's religion, I'm just saying that unless you actually read the WHOLE book, I don't think you should be allowed to ban it. Unfortuantely though, people do...

[kittiewhirl1677]

I agree with GaladrielO:

or dancing is allowed

What the... since when is dancing a "questionable amusement"?

[The Saucepan Man]

Absolutely no drinking, smoking, or dancing is allowed. No student is allowed to attend Hollywood movies, play cards, or participate in other questionable amusements. We do not fellowship with liberals, but instead take a strict separatist stand from the world and apostasy.

[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

I'll summarise that for him:

"We want to turn out dull, unimaginitive clones who share our joyless and intolerant views".

[Iarwain]

I think that's fascinating, Eruwen. I'd like to visit your school. One thing I don't like. If the administration has reasons for banning fantastical literature from the school, they should allow discussion of the material in class, at least to explain why it is wrong.

About the dancing, this is nothing new. Just watch the movie "Footloose". Dancing was banned by the puritan colonials that first settled on the east coast. As far as I know, many Christian churches do not allow dancing within the walls of their buildings. However, I don't think dancing should be prohibited at all times, as can be quoted from Ecclesiastes 3:4,

a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance

Drinking, smoking, gambling, all damaging and addictive habits. If I ran the school, I would impose these bans also.

Personally, I think that "fellowship" with "liberals" is a good opportunity to share Christ with others, and should not be banned, lest there be a ban on evangelism.

The movies bit makes it a bit extreme, but after all these people are just trying to keep the students pure in heart and mind, and Hollywood isn't the best place to find purity.

The separatist stance is contradictory to Christ's own words in Matthew:

28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

On Tolkien, I believe that before sensoring books, the administration should take a closer look at the Literature that they are banning. Blind restrictions are never a good thing, and they always open up others to criticism that they might otherwise not deserve.

Those are my thoughts. Just wanted to let everyone know that these ideas are not totally unheard of, or even considered completely ridiculous to everyone.


Iarwain


P.S. Elder Galadriel, I know from experience that Catholic schools tend to be very much on the liberal side (by my standards). They like to enforce uniforms and service requirements (the latter not a bad thing, the former highly objectable), but beyond that they are content. I, of course, am not Catholic, though I attend papist schools.

P.P.S. Come now, everyone! Isn't it common knowledge that Jonny got his Gun by Dalton Trumbo is the most banned book of all time? It makes perfect sense, being an anti-war novel published just before the beginning of U.S. involvement in WWII.

[ April 30, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

Well, I have to admit that I am not entirely against the banning of books. In Canada, it is legal to possess literature about child pornography and abuse but illegal to possess photos. I think the books and photos need to banned. So, my point being that there are legitimate reasons for the banning of books.

In regards to Eruwen's school, it is most likely a strict, Christian-based school.

Now I would also like to ask the grades of Eruwen's school. I understand that setting age requirements on reading materials make sense and that this might be an option available for the school.

Another note on to handle the debate regarding LotR and Tolkien's work in Eruwen's school might be to point out that Tolkien, himself, was a Christian and he helped CS Lewis come to know Christ and have a personal relationship with him. There are also some letters Tolkien wrote in which he states his thoughts on LotR and Christianity which might assist as well.

This is very interesting and I wonder if there are any other such incidents, as well.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Lalaith-

I'd like to answer your survey questions, although in my high school (during my first two years, after that I transferred) Tolkien was not banned. However, I was in school in the pre-movie days, and I don't know if anyone (other than myself) at that school was Tolkien literate. I'm sure it might have been banned if they'd known about it, as the rules were very like those posted by the principal of Eruwen's school (or whoever wrote those rules). Then I have some general comments on bans and tightly enforced rules that I hope will be accepted.

*What kind of schools are they? I don't really know what 'parochial school' means, perhaps someone could explain. The school I was at was a small, church run, Protestant Christian school.
*Are they all in the US? rural Maine for me, I wouldn't be surprised if they did all turn out to be in the US.
*What *specific* grounds are given for banning his works, if any? Like I said, Tolkien himself wasn't banned, but anything that was thought to promote magic or witchcraft was highly discouraged, if not banned. Tolkien would have fallen into that class, I believe, during post-movie days [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
*What other books are banned? Harry Potter- for use of witchcraft, Madeline L'Engle- for twisting of scriptures in Many Waters, the TV show Survivor- for mean spiritedness, the X-files- I don't know why.
*What form does the banning take - are the books extracted from the library, are you forbidden to take them onto school premises, or does the ban also extend to off-school? We had no library, honestly. On school grounds would have been a problem, and technically I think it was also supposed to apply off-school, but nobody followed it.
*What would happen to you if you broke the ban? Detention I suppose, for a first offense. Repeated offenses might have involved suspension, or at least a call to the parents. Public Reprimands in chapel were not unheard of.

Now, before anyone jumps on my school administrators and begins shrieking "FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION" please allow me to finish this post. And, ah, please don't stone me when I'm done.

Saucepan Man said:

"We want to turn out dull, unimaginitive clones who share our joyless and intolerant views".

I want to say, no, that is not what they intend at all. I know that's what they may achieve, and that they are going about goals in the wrong way, but the people who set up my school undoubtedly had our best interests at heart.

Now, tight rules are restrictive and may cramp one's style, but let's not encourage people who are under them to break them. It's character building to deal with something like that, and it makes people realize what they think about something. Highlighting disagreements can be a good catalyst for thought, at least for me it was, realizing that I disagreed with people made me clarify my stand and look for justification.

Now, while I think the restrictions on movies, dancing, and cards are a little heavy, I have no problem whatsoever with the other ones. School is a time that passes and is soon over, and there's plenty of time to experiment in college and beyond.

So while I didn't enjoy those rules, and I certainly dont' follow most of them now, I did benefit from them, and I have not (in any way) become a "dull, unimaginitive clone who shares (my teachers) joyless and intolerant views". And to my knowledge, very few of my fellow students have either.

Oh, and for those who wonder about dancing restrictions, I think they are generally in order to avoid sexual connotations of dancing. I know at the school I was in, that did not apply to choreographed/performance oriented forms of dance, only to social dances (which might be tempting) or dances with "questionable" intent.

Wow, I never thought I'd write a hot defense of that!, what things one learns in retrospect...

Sophia

[ May 01, 2003: Message edited by: Sophia the Thunder Mistress ]

[Cazoz]

I went to a rather rigid school, but this was in the UK, where educational emphasis )in private schools) seems to be placed more on what a person achieves than the type of person who achieves it, as the US private system seems to.

I never heard of any books being banned, in this day and age I would have thought schools would encourage kids to read, seeing as most prefer to play computer games, watch tv or have the attitude of "**** the book, I'll see the movie!".

Leisurely reading amongst today's youth is dwindling, and for a school which prides itself on excellence, it seems ludicrous to have such censorship. They would prefer walking Bible robots who have been sheltered from anything unholy? These people are not going to develop good social skills or learn much about the real world and it depresses me, as once they leave their familiar surroundings, adult life will be even more alien and discriminating.

My school obviously had rules on smoking and drinking, most schools do. But censorship within the library? Not at all. Outside of school hours/premises, students could do whatever they wanted (so long as it was legal!) and I think this balance between strictness and freedom is really helpful; it ensures that students can follow rules and guidelines but didn't discourage extra-curricular learning and didn't attempt to act as a moral guardian (parents anyone?) or segregator to the kids, so that they wouldn't have problems in society when the cotton wool wrapping and the imposed naivety wore off.

I've kinda gone off topic. A lot. But I feel strongly about censorship and also about schools which discourage individuality, adapt a parental role beyond their in locus parenti responsibility for safety and try to mould their students into their ideal citizen instead of developing a particular individual's brain and traits in the most fruitful direction that student can go.

i'm homeschooled and my church some times uses lord of the rings in some stuff
and that's the only fantansy books and movies i only like.

As far as I know, many Christian churches do not allow dancing within the walls of their buildings. However, I don't think dancing should be prohibited at all times, as can be

not my church they let us dance but most of us don't do it.
[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ May 02, 2003: Message edited by: Maltamelien ]

[Morgul Queen]

I am sorry to say, my good people, that I don't believe in god.
As a child who has gone to christian schools all my life and being forced to church every Sunday I have decided that I do not want to be christian.
HOWEVER, my school (Sacred Heart College, Lower Hutt) is extremely tight on the rules they have...No jewellery, no large earrings (basically if your earrings are biger than sleepers you get detention) no colourful socks, always wear your blazer and never ever ever use colourful buttons on you blazer (we put buttons and pins stating our achievements on our blazer collars but once again if its too bright you get detention Example my friend FISH wors about 4 feathers and she got the big D for it) [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[Altariel]

O_o

Whoa, Morgul Queen... pretty strict... at my school you're not allowed to wear buttons on your blazers (unless they're prefects' pins or academic/athletic/fine arts colours) and you're not allowed to wear colourful socks (only black kneesocks...) but they're not too strict with the jewelry.

Also, Tolkien's actually on the list of books that the school reccommends we read, as are several other fantasy and science fiction authors. We're encouraged to read/write whatever we like, which is nice.

It's sad when schools think we're so impressionable that we're going to be "paganised" (this is a term from a site I ran across which rated fantasy books according to how "dangerous" the ideas and content were to Christian values...) or become satanists because of something we read...

[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Lalaith]

Thanks again everyone for your opinions, and particularly Sophia for answering my questions. I respect your point of view and it's commendable that you don't have any resentments about your schooldays.
I think people's comments have shown that there does seem to be a big gulf between US and European schools. In the UK, for example, there are plenty of schools which place restrictions on students' appearance - strict rules about uniform, socks, make up and so on - but it is very rare to find intellectual/academic restrictions. For example, there was one school in the UK that taught Creationism rather than the theory of evolution - this was considered such a scandal that it was reported in all the newspapers. From what I gather, many US schools can teach/impose whatever world view they like on their students.
I think censorship is a worrying thing. And I do really wonder about this fear of fantasy and imagination, which is presumably what Tolkien is being banned for.
What, exactly, is morally or religiously wrong with fantasy? Is it that imagining things that aren't real is bad? This seems to contradict the anti-Harry Potter viewpoint, those who burn Rowling's books do so presumably because they think that magic *does* exist and that it is bad and dangerous. The banning of unicorn T shirts...do they think that unicorns exist too?

[ May 04, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

[Iarwain]

To answer your question about the unicorns, Lailath, these people do not think that unicorns, or even necessarily magic exists. They have taken on the typical fear of the unknown. People hate what they cannot control, and they cannot control what they do not understand, thus they hate the things that mysterious to them. In the past, there have been strict, well backed up arguements about the wrongness of magic. In fact there still are, but many people do not know about them or where to look for them. They have been left with the fact that witchcraft is evil, and no reason why. This is when the public criticism (as displayed by many of you) kicks in, scorning these people and institutions for seemingly ridiculous bans. Also, since the people against witchcraft do not have reasons to be so, they push their bans and protocols further and further to the point of irrationality (i.e. the ban on unicorn T-shirts).

I just want you to know that there was and still is a reason for these fears, just as there was a reason for so many people being killed in the Salem witch trilals. That, however, takes into the realm of spirituality, and then theology, and then Christianity, which many of you do not believe in, so I'll leave it there. However, if any of you are intereested just PM me.

Iarwain

[ May 04, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[ May 04, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[ May 06, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Cazoz]

From what I gather, many US schools can teach/impose whatever world view they like on their students.

I have a real problem with this, like the rule about not 'fellowshipping' with liberals at Eruwen's school. Religion is one thing, many schools are religious across the board and this is perfectly fine, but it is the political thing I have a problem with. Firstly, to try and dictate who your students can and cannot be friends with I find unfair and fascist and secondly, to attempt to influence their political leanings and thus indirectly their vote, is disgraceful, unethical and surely must be illegal?

[ May 04, 2003: Message edited by: Cazoz ]

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

...no colourful sox...

???

In regards to Eruwen's school, it is most likely a strict, Christian-based school.

...but what if it isn't? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Well, I believe my school doesn't ban any books, but it bans some things, though mostly in the elementary school section (they are joined at my school, just on different floors- I go to a tiny school.): miniature fans are banned in lower school, and in everywhere else too if it's cold [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] , tanktops are banned in lower school, and by some teachers everywhere else, cd players, gameboys, and I think some magazines. My schoolis religious, being Jewish (thought I am a rather half-hearted Jew, more or less atheist,) and a few other things which I can't remember just now. However I believe that most of these bans are sensible (when in fourth grade, a lot of the people protested against the mini fans thing [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] because we needed an excuse to protest [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] , we had a terrible lower school head), so I don't have the same problem most of you guys have. Except the thing about no tank tops. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Whatever, maybe I'm weird. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

~Menelien

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

*smiles* I see you're from London, Cazoz.

Life's a little different here, and I think you do have som good points, but I think you may be misreading a little bit. For one thing, I don't think that "fellowship with liberals" necessarily means political liberals. At least in my experience the term seems to be used in a more all around sense, by people who don't understand the real meaning of it (like Iarwain said). In many circles the term liberal is a catch all term for evil much like the term fantasy is. It applies (in those circles) to much more than politics, but to the religious/moral areas their political philosophy influences. Part of this is another resistance to 'paganizing'. The school wants you to be protected from the influence of people whose political view contradict their moral views (on perhaps one of the very firey issues like abortion).

And as for teaching/imposing. I refer to my above post. I don't believe that teaching is the same as imposing. You can be forced to pay lip service to a view while you're in that school, but what you're taught is never imposed on you, you still have the freedom to believe or disbelieve, and most of us seem to have active enough minds not to blindly accept.

As a side note, yes Lalaith, creationism is taught in many US private schools (and some public, even), it was in mine, and barely raises an eyebrow. Funny how different things can be?

Iarwain- thanks for that insightful discussion on unicorns and such, it opened my eyes and helped me understand in a little different way. Thanks again.

Sophia

[Iarwain]

Really, the teaching of evolution in public schools violates religious beliefs just as much as creationism does, and probably even more. The instruction of evolutionism in public schools has been outlawed completely in Kansas (the mere thought makes me grin wildly). But anyway, Cazoz, no matter what you teach children, you will always be affecting their political views, and in the end, their vote. It's irrational to think otherwise.

Iarwain

[Cazoz]

I wouldn't say irrational, more naive. Call me an idealist eh?

On the Creationism thing, this interests me because, as has already been mentioned, schools are very different over this side of the pond. (I'm in Melbourne currently, but let's pretend I'm at home.) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I presume there will be a correlation between schools where Creationism is taught and the religious/ethnic make-up of those states/areas. Lalaith mentioned Kansas for example, where I again would presume the majority are overwhelmingly Anglo-Saxon Protestants. But I wonder, how do non-Christian kids accept the fact that Creationism is being taught as definitive? And I take it that Creationism isn't taught in public schools in larger, more multi-cultural cities?

Do atheist/Jewish/Asian/Muslim etc... parents not have objections to this? I suppose these would be the same objections Christians have to evolution. But in these areas, surely non-Christians are in the severe minority. And I suppose there would be greater apathy amongst atheists than Christians, you guys can be outspoken to the point of militancy! Look at the home schooling phenomenon.

I love the parallels between the two countries. Closest allies and yet worlds apart. And American culture has diverged so much from British culture in comparison to those of Australia or New Zealand. But I guess you weren't a colony and it was a good 100 years prior so I digress, I am going off on a tangent!

I don't mean to sound patronising or rude or facetious, but it kind of bemuses and almost amuses me, the thought of teaching Creationism in British state schools. I think Adam and Eve would get the same reactions as the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus if taught historically and not as part of religious studies, which (in state schools) covers all religions equally.

[ May 05, 2003: Message edited by: Cazoz ]

[DaughterofVana]

As a side note, yes Lalaith, creationism is taught in many US private schools (and some public, even), it was in mine, and barely raises an eyebrow. Funny how different things can be?

Yes, but in the public schools it wasn't the *only* version of universe-origin (sorry for the clumsy term) that was taught. At least, it's not supposed to be.

About Kansas:

Giving creation science equal footing with scientific theories of evolution is high on the agenda of many religious groups. In 1999, the school board of the state of Kansas, for example, decided to deemphasize evolution in the curriculum and testing in its high schools. The policy was overturned, however, when voters in 2000 removed the "creationists" from the State Board of Education.

- Greenberg, Edward S and Page, Benjamin I. "The Struggle For Democracy". Longman Pub., 2002

My handy-dandy Political Science textbook. (Be afraid! Be very afraid!)

As for us (public school) kiddies here in the US, pay attention--if you see something going on your school that smells a little "foul" to you: the posting of the ten commandments on the wall (Stone v. Gram, 1980), reciting a "non-denominational" prayer before class over the intercom (Engel v. Vitale, 1962), or student-led prayers at school-sponsored events (Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe, 2000), you need to tell someone about it. Regardless of your views on Christianity or not, these Supreme Court rulings are the gov.-decreed interpretations of the Constitution, and the breaking of which is grounds for action. It has been deemed a threat to your individual rights.

I'm saying this because even though some schools "get away" with non-secular methods, it ISN'T supported by the US Constitution (the document, not the boat) and therefore isn't a good judge on US stance on censorship(or the lack thereof) in schools. People will get away with whatever they can, and as long as people LET their these actions fall underneath the exectutive and judicial radar, then the practice will remain. But the breaking of laws says nothing for the laws themselves.

I wish I could find some court-rulings on the teachings of private schools. Perhaps there aren't any, but there HAS to be some link between the private school being subject to gov. regulation on the grounds of gov. funding, because there was in intigration (Runyon v. McCrary, 1976).

I hope I helped a little bit. If not, you all could use a good nap. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

-'Vana

EDIT: yes, I am a Christian, and a pretty strong "fundie" at that; but I am also a strong believer in the Bill of Rights. That 1st Amendment is what would protect me from sallaming to Allah five times a day if circumstances were different. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ May 06, 2003: Message edited by: DaughterofVana ]

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

The instruction of evolutionism in public schools has been outlawed completely in Kansas (the mere thought makes me grin wildly).

Two responses: a. that just gave me a strange image of a wildly grinning blue coat [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] b. did I miss something? What's evolutionism?

~Menelien

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Do atheist/Jewish/Asian/Muslim etc... parents not have objections to this? I suppose these would be the same objections Christians have to evolution. But in these areas, surely non-Christians are in the severe minority. And I suppose there would be greater apathy amongst atheists than Christians, you guys can be outspoken to the point of militancy! Look at the home schooling phenomenon.

As Daughter of Vana said (and she's completely right) at public schools Christian creationism isn't the only thing taught, and I believe some Jewish and Muslim groups have their own variety of creationism that still fits in there somewhere.

At private Christian schools it might be the only thing taught but it *is* in the context of religious studies, because religion is considered to be an integral part of all learning.

This is one of those discussions that should never have gotten off topic... [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

leaving now-
Sophia

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

at public schools Christian creationism isn't the only thing taught, and I believe some Jewish and Muslim groups have their own variety of creationism that still fits in there somewhere.

What is creationism? Going to a Jewish school, I may be able to answer the "question", if I only understood it or knew what it was... [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

~Menelien

Edit: Happy 1000th to me!

[ May 06, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[Trippo The Hippo]

Personally, I think that "fellowship" with "liberals" is a good opportunity to share Christ with others, and should not be banned, lest there be a ban on evangelism.

I feel the same. I am a born again christian, and I am a missionary during the summer in south Jersey. Being a missionary I evangelize alot, thus mening alot of fellowship with liberals. I believe that if you have a firm enough foundation in your won belief, then you should not be swayed by others.

b. did I miss something? What's evolutionism?

Evolutionism is the belief that we all evolved.

What is creationism? Going to a Jewish school, I may be able to answer the "question", if I only understood it or knew what it was...

Creationism is that God created us. (My personal belief.)


P. S. Happy 1000 Menelien.

[ May 06, 2003: Message edited by: Trippo The Hippo ]

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

As Daughter of Vana said (and she's completely right) at public schools Christian creationism isn't the only thing taught, and I believe some Jewish and Muslim groups have their own variety of creationism that still fits in there somewhere.

Alright, if I now get what you’re talking about, as I think I do, I can say: I don’t know about Islam, but Judaism is totally based on creationsim. That’s what it goes on and on about. That’s what our Jewish Studies teacher spends hours beating into our heads. I don’t really know about Orthodox or that-other-part-have-clean-out-forgotten-what-it’s-called Jews (thought I know that Orthodox Jews are really strict about these things), but Reform Jews (what my school is) leave out many of the customs written out in the Bible, meaning they don’t do everything word-for-word the way it is written in the Torah, but the beliefs stay the same, and that is the big umbrella statement of the Jewish religion: “God created us, He is One.” I don’t really believe in this, but I’m just writing it up in case you guys don’t know. And how did we get onto this topic? Because sometimes topics like this lead to debates over religion (at least on other forums I've seen), and a topic like that would be instantly closed.

~Menelien

Edit: Looking over this post, I realize it looks slightly contemmpuous towards Judaism, and any practicing Jews out there, I'm telling you: that's not the way it's meant. Just making sure you know [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ May 06, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[DaughterofVana]

That's why we have to be careful not to get the conversation completely off topic (IE, not relating in any way or fashion to Tolkien). Please forgive my digression... it was late last night and all my new-found knowlege on the constitution was due to me studying for the exam the night before. I humbly ask everyone's apology. My point (and there WAS one [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) was to kind of clarify the offical US stance on religion in schools, which would in turn refer back to the previous discussion that said that the religion-base of the school had a lot to do with whether the institution would let Tolkien books be contained within it or not. If you guys want to talk with me about any of the points that I brought up before, please do PM me and we can start a diologue. But for now, let's stick to Tolkien.

Myself included. ::sheepish look::

-'Vana

[HCIsland]

Really, the teaching of evolution in public schools violates religious beliefs just as much as creationism does, and probably even more.

Last time I checked, evolution would be part of the biology curriculum and is generally left until folks' senior year of biology. If you are taking a course in biology, I think it stands to reason that you will be discussing current theories regarding the subject. Does that mean the teacher should concern his or her self with making sure creationalism gets it's fair shake in the course? Absolutely not. The course is biology, a science, not a religion course. I find it extremely unlikely someone teaching creationalism to students would concern themselves with giving evolution it's fair shake.

If you are taking a senior biology course but object to evolution being taught, then you really need to question whether this is the decipline for you. Like it or not, evolution is a cornerstone of the subject and not presenting it to students taking the subject at a senior level is irresponsible. It's like me taking physics, but I'm going to walk out the door if that jerk Newton gets mentioned.

H.C.

[Lalaith]

Cazoz, I didn't mention Kansas, that was Iarwain. I didn't know that about Kansas. It seems we're back to the Scopes Monkey Trial.
HC - you're quite right. If you are studying science, then the 'theory' of evolution is not considered a 'theory' in the sense of being a possible hypothesis. The word is used in the same sense as 'theory of gravity': to mean 'abstract knowledge or reasoning.' In other words, fact.

But taking the topic swiftly back to Tolkien - ME was of course called into existence by a monotheistic being, in proper creationist fashion. This may, or may not, endear him to fundamentalists, I don't know. Why, by the way, Sophia, would the films have resulted in the banning of the books when they weren't banned before?
But there are many interesting parallels to draw between current censorship/burning of fantasy literature such as Tolkien, and famous acts of cultural vandalism. For example, the burning of the library at Alexandria in the 7th century. Caliph Omar allegedly ordered the burning, on the grounds that the books of the library "will either contradict the Koran, in which case they are heresy, or they will agree with it, so they are superfluous." Judging by what Eruwen and others have reported here, there seem to be people with similar opinions in the US right now.

[DaughterofVana]

But taking the topic swiftly back to Tolkien - ME was of course called into existence by a monotheistic being, in proper creationist fashion. This may, or may not, endear him to fundamentalists, I don't know.

It would, IF they would bother reading the books in the first place. Along the lines of what Iarwain talked about before, typecasting is a common strategy of people who *know* something is wrong, can't really figure out why, and so they therefore stick it in a little box and write BAD! in really big letters. Knowledge is one of the key combatants of fear. That's why, before a person picks a stance on *anything* (religion, politics, etc.) he or she should find out as much as he or she can about the opposing viewpoints. So much better, then, to combat the chosen viewpoint against the other ones.

Why, by the way, Sophia, would the films have resulted in the banning of the books when they weren't banned before?

(I know I'm not Sophia, btw) The movies could have one of two affects on the "fundie's" viewpoint on LOTR:

1. They could finally see the Christian *themes* (not symbolism!) in the movie's version of the written work and perhaps give it a second chance by actually *reading* it this time

or

2. Say that the themes are all well and good, but all that magic and wizards and orcs and stuff *still* isn't good for the kiddies. The "bad" outnumbers the "good."

Viewpoint #2, obviously, could be countered by actually *reading* LOTR... but if they still think that way, well, then there's no helping them. Once they read the book and gave it a fair shot, then they are intitled to their opinions. I doubt very seriously that someone who has given LOTR a fair shot would see that it is not the "magic and deamon-filled book" as they make it out to be.

EDIT: also, Eru and his Valar really had no part in the LOTR, outside of the elves mentioning Varda. Outside of the knowledge that we have of the Sil, Varda could have been the Mother Goddess. Who knows how she and the others appear to the ignorant.

-'Vana

[ May 07, 2003: Message edited by: DaughterofVana ]

[Iarwain]

As Lalaith pointed out, when the theory of evolution is discussed (ususally much earlier that Senior year) it is not pointed out to be a theory in the same way as a meteor bringing about the start of the last ice age is. It is given, stressed as the only rational possibility, and then the rest of the theories for the origin of life on earth are provided as fundamentalist mythology. Of course, this is how it is in a Catholic school. Perhaps they are more judicial in their presentation elsewhere, but personally I doubt it. The fact remains that there are hundreds of millions (if not billions) of people out there who think evolution to be the irrational one between the two, and see it as a feeble attempt to eliminate an obligation to morality and to deny the existence of God. The reason for banning Tolkien in these Christian schools is that they do not know what the reality of Tolkien is. Vana explained it perfectly.

Iarwain

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Another reason some might ban Tolkien is the "dead-white-man" thing, which I find perfectly ridiculous, who cares if it's a good book? Political correctness is a good thing, but not to that extent, I think.

~Menelien

[Iarwain]

Please explain this "dead-white-man" thing, Galad, I've never heard of anything like this before.

Iarwain