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Old 04-09-2003, 05:20 AM   #1
Lalaith
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Sting The Dior Dilemma

Ok, we've all been talking about the half-elven problem. People have said that Dior wasn't an issue because he died before he had to make the choice.
But where did he go when died? Did he go to the Halls of Mandos or did he suffer the unknown fate of men?
I'd always assumed he'd been counted as an elf, he was married to one, ruled over them and so on.
But maybe some of our half-elven experts have other ideas.
Oh, and what about the sons of Dior who were left to die in the wilderness? Would they have gone to Mandos too? Poor little things... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
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Old 04-09-2003, 06:33 AM   #2
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Sting

Dior was was a Man, and his mother already sheared the Doom of Man when he was recieved and born. So I assume he was a Man and sheared the Doom of Man.

His children were Half-Elven. Elwing had the choice granted by Manwe. Her brethern died eraly in childhood. And were never again mentioned. So we do not know what happend to thier fear.

Since at the ende of the Frist Age Manwe decleared that hence forward any child that had a share of human blood how ever small should recive the gift of man, if not granted other wiese, I think that Elured and Elurin where counted among mankind.

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Old 04-09-2003, 06:49 AM   #3
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Silmaril

I havent read the Sil. for a while, but i was wondering, dont ALL beings, men and elves go to the halls of Mandos? Or just elves?
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Old 04-09-2003, 10:07 AM   #4
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Sting

According to the Silm - Men go there briefly, before in some manner unknown to Elves, pass to some place of Eru's choosing beyond the confines of the Circles of the World.

Whether obscure aspects of HoME offer a different view I do not off-hand recall.

The Athrabeth (HoM-E X) would be a likely place to look, as would the MT chapters at the end of the Book.

[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 04-09-2003, 03:26 PM   #5
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Is really Dior 100% man? In that case the marriage Dior-Nimloth (or Lindis) would be the fourth union between elves and men. Where is it mentioned that he is a man? Arwen parents were elves and she became mortal.
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Old 04-10-2003, 12:01 AM   #6
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The way to label Dior, Elured, Elurin, Elwing and Earendil, as well as Elrond and Elros is as Peredhil. They were half-elven, and in a sense, perhaps, half-elven humans, and pending some pronouncement of fate by Manwe to the contrary, they were bound by the fate of mortality within the World.

Presumably, they were immune to sickness and common decay, and would be exceptionally long-lived and vigorous to the end. Dior might have lived a thousand years, conceivably, seeing as Elros lasted 500. But the presence of mortal blood (in the non-genetic sense) would mean that their spirits were not bound to this World and could not sustain the corpus indefinitely from the ravages of Time, hence age and death, and the departure of that spirit from the Circles of the World, after a period of waiting in the Halls of Mandos.

For the first three listed above, the question of a choice from Manwe never happened, and sadly, there was no such chance. Even Dior had a short life by the measure of Men. So, we can really never know. So, Dior & Nimloth was thus a pairing of Peredhil and Elf.

For the others, who had a choice, they still remained Peredhil, and could choose, and in three cases, chose to have the life and fate of the Firstborn.

Arguably, Arwen and Aragorn was technically not a pairing of Elf and Man. Aragorn's non-human ancestry was so remote as to be meaningless, but Arwen (and her brothers) were still half-elven. But for all intents and purposes she was a Elf when they married. Her human ancestry was only 3/16, and she had lived nearly three thousand years, already, as a Quendi.
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Old 04-10-2003, 07:30 AM   #7
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Sting

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But for all intents and purposes she was a Elf when they married.
Arwen was not an elf any you look at it. She was a half-elf who had not yet abandoned her Elvish rights.

Quote:
Is really Dior 100% man?
No. 1/4 Sinda, 1/4 Ainu, 1/2 Man.

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Arwen parents were elves and she became mortal.
No, they weren't. Celebrian was an elf; Elrond was a half-elf.

Dior was mortal, though. Before the family of Earendil/Elwing, all beings with any amount of mortal blood were mortal. This also remained true for any beings afterwards (aside from Earendil/Elwing's descendants).

[ April 10, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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Old 04-11-2003, 06:49 PM   #8
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Sting

The sons (and daughter) of Elrond were given the same choice Elrond and Elros were given. His sons chose to be elves and went with their father, but Arwen chose to be mortal and stayed with Aragorn.
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Old 04-11-2003, 08:27 PM   #9
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Sting

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His sons chose to be elves and went with their father
That's a pretty controversial thing to say around here, isn't it?
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Old 04-12-2003, 09:40 AM   #10
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White-Hand

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Very!

We know that the twins did not accompany their father oversea at the end of the Third Age but continued to live in Rivendell for many years thereafter, joined eventually by their grandfather Celeborn.

There is some controversy over their final choice, they may have eventually followed their father into the West but I personally am inclined to believe they chose to be accounted as Men and died in Middle Earth. The question is however quite open as Tolkien never actually says what their choice was.
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Old 04-13-2003, 11:41 AM   #11
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1420!

I agree with Morwen T about the twins. (I think BD-"Legolas" needs a surname like Morwen T to avoid confusion with references to Legolas, the character).

A few posts above, Lindil quotes me out of context. Shame. I had just said that technically Arwen was a Peredhil and not an Elf per se. But with the qualification of "for all intents and purposes" is to say that she was indeed like an Elf at the point of her marriage, which one must accept in order to make sense of JRRT's listing of Aragorn and Arwen as one of the three pairings of Man and Eldar.
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Old 02-26-2007, 01:49 PM   #12
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Do you really think Tolkien, a devoted family man, would have Nimloth forever separated from her baby children in the after life forever?
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Old 02-26-2007, 04:44 PM   #13
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Ah, thanks for digging up this old thing, hewhoarisesinmight...(what do they call you for short, btw?)
Now you've got me worritting about those poor babies again.

I found this on Wikipedia...
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Tradition among the Nandor of Ossiriand held that they were led to the safety of the woodlands by birds and beasts, and survived.
Never heard that before. Can anyone elucidate?
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Old 02-27-2007, 07:13 AM   #14
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what do they call you for short, btw?
That idiot mostly no I think I once was called He Who either that or hwain's fine
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Old 02-27-2007, 09:39 AM   #15
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Well, I've looked through the thread and noticed nobody gave any quotes on this so I will:

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"Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor) and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. "
(Letter #153)
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' Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Peredil
(Half-elven), but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.' (HOME XII)
Quote:
"Now fare the long days of Elfinesse unto that time when Tuor
dwelt in Gondolin; and children then had Dior the Elf," (The Book of the Lost Tales II)
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'Dior the Elf' is an emendation from 'Dior then an aged Elf'. (The Book of the Lost Tales II)
Well, as seen above in the first writings on this topic Tolkien considered him an Elf clearly.
In later writings this becomes unclear. The quote from Letter #153 shows that Dior was given this choice. The question remaining is which choice did he make.

Considering what we know about him, I personally see him as an Elf. We know he was named "Thingol's Heir", and he was King of Doriath. I doubt the Elves would have accepted a Man as their ruler, even if he was the rightful heir to the throne. Also, there is one other example of a Half-Elf that rules over Elves - Elrond - and it is well known which choice he made.
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Old 02-27-2007, 09:44 AM   #16
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Also, there is one other example of a Half-Elf that rules over Elves - Elrond - and it is well known which choice he made.
Well, "technically", he was a full elf after he and Elros made their choices. After that, he was a half-elven by title only.
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Old 02-27-2007, 10:01 AM   #17
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The quote from the Letters is telling. That means Tolkien thought of Dior as an Half-Elf.

The quotes from the Lost Tales do not really count for anything here, since at that time Beren Dior's father was an Elf himself, so there was no question of Dior being anything else then an Elf.

The choices for the Half-Elves were granted to them by the Manwë after a long discussion of the council of the Valar after the journey of Eärendil to Valinor. At this time Dior had been killed already. I imaging that he was held in waiting in the Halls of Mandos for that time and that he was granted the choice after that decision by Manwë: Either he could stay in Mandos until the time Namo jugde him fit for a return to incarnated live or he could leave the world for ever. But how can anybody in Middel-Earth be expected to know what choise he made?

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Old 02-27-2007, 10:47 AM   #18
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If that is true Dior would have gone with his wife...
What choice could the children have had, would they have automatically gone with their parents? I certainly hope so.
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Old 02-27-2007, 10:49 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
Well, "technically", he was a full elf after he and Elros made their choices. After that, he was a half-elven by title only.
I would quibble about that... his NATURE, his mortality/immortality, being bound to the world or destined to escape it was then fully Elven, but to call Elrond fully Elven otherwise seems... wrong. His physical human inheritance (Tuor's shoulders maybe, or Beren's eyebrows, or Bëor's toenails, or Rían's elbows... or whatever), would not have been erased by his choice. It was only the completely irreconcilable natures of Man and Elf that required a choice. In other matters, such as temperament and looks, there is no reason to suggest that would have become half-Elven by title only. Elrond favoured his Elven side, but that did not nullify that he was Man as well.

Just to quibble.
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Old 02-27-2007, 11:08 AM   #20
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Just to quibble.
Count me in
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His physical human inheritance (Tuor's shoulders maybe, or Beren's eyebrows, or Bëor's toenails, or Rían's elbows... or whatever), would not have been erased by his choice.
But this would presume that a half-elven would receive any traits of his human parent. So far, I don't think it is warranted. I would also hold that no single feature is strictly human or elven; the only exceptions would be the ears (not a certain issue) and the unspecific beauty of the firstborn (not a monopoly of them either).

Furthermore, even if his body would maintain some Mannish features from the parent, it would definitely undergo a radical transformation, seeing that the bodies of elves have to endure life until the end of the world (if we don't count Melkor's marring).

In conclusion, I don't think he would have something that would set him aside from other elves visibly, while biologically he would be like them as much as any other elf.
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Old 02-27-2007, 12:06 PM   #21
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Good point made Findegil, I had forgotten this.
Still, his deeds in life seem to hint he was favorising his Elf side over his Man side, and that's what leads me to think he chose to be an Elf.
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Old 02-28-2007, 04:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
But this would presume that a half-elven would receive any traits of his human parent. So far, I don't think it is warranted. I would also hold that no single feature is strictly human or elven; the only exceptions would be the ears (not a certain issue) and the unspecific beauty of the firstborn (not a monopoly of them either).
If he can inherit from his Elven parent, why couldn't he inherit from his human one?

What if all of Dior's dominant genes, physically, came from Beren? Tolkien says that Elves and Men were capable of producing offspring in the normal way, which assumes two sets of genes and the subsequent physical products from the two parents.

I would agree that there may not have been any body parts exclusive to one race or the other, as I don't hold with the ears-different theory.

Quote:
Furthermore, even if his body would maintain some Mannish features from the parent, it would definitely undergo a radical transformation, seeing that the bodies of elves have to endure life until the end of the world (if we don't count Melkor's marring).
Need it undergo any transformation at all? The Númenoreans were pretty longeval, and under the original schema they didn't die of old age, but of surrendering their lives. Granted, there was aging going on, but if one further takes the Athrabeth into account, one could make a case that the inherent Mannish form was as immortal as the Elven one.

Quote:
In conclusion, I don't think he would have something that would set him aside from other elves visibly, while biologically he would be like them as much as any other elf.
Biologically, any human was like any elf-- thus they could copulate producing fertile offspring. The ONLY difference between the races that we are definitively given is lifespan.
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Old 02-28-2007, 05:21 PM   #23
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I would agree that there may not have been any body parts exclusive to one race or the other, as I don't hold with the ears-different theory.
Then I would say that nothing of their Mannish ancestry, if any, would set them apart.
Quote:
Need it undergo any transformation at all? The Númenoreans were pretty longeval, and under the original schema they didn't die of old age, but of surrendering their lives. Granted, there was aging going on, but if one further takes the Athrabeth into account, one could make a case that the inherent Mannish form was as immortal as the Elven one.
However, in contrast to Andreth's words, Tolkien notes in the letters that if Men are "immortal" too, then they are pretty much elves, so there would be no point in having both of them. Also, Myths Transformed speculates that even given the perfect conditions of Aman, a Man would perish soon (as compared with those with true "immortality"). It may also be that this idea of Men being initially "immortal" was instilled as part of Melkor's plan to corrupt their view on life and death.
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:58 AM   #24
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Fair points, I suppose...

But I would still quibble that Elrond et al were not merely "Half-Elves by title only", but, simply, Half-Elves. We could just as easily call him Half-Man, though that is not the convention. I'm willing to accept that the Half-Elven-who-chooses-Elvenkind is in all respects a full, regular, Elf, but that is biologically. In terms of culture and self-perception, the Mannish influence cannot but affect the mind. Obviously, it affected Elrond less than Elros, since he chose his Elven heritage-- but there is ample evidence shown in his fondness for his Arnorian cousins in the Third Age that Elrond remembered and honoured his kinship with Men, and consequently his descent from them.
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Old 03-01-2007, 03:27 PM   #25
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I'm willing to accept that the Half-Elven-who-chooses-Elvenkind is in all respects a full, regular, Elf, but that is biologically.
There are two main areas that are not taken into account by this idea, and which significantly separate Men from Elves. One is the high level of abilities specific to the elves; Elrond is the greatest loremaster of Middle Earth, perhaps the most skilled healer, a powerful magician, he can foresee into the future in some matters, and I believe he can recall from his childhood the world of the First Age. The other is the special communion elves had with their body
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aelfwine's preamble, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X
They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.
I, for one, have little reason to believe that Elrond didn't excel in this area too. We could argue about the value of Elrond having been a Man (if he ever actually was). However, none of this would diminish Elrond's "elvishness" - at most complete it and enrich it. He remains a foremost exponent of his race.
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Old 03-01-2007, 07:37 PM   #26
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Dior was mortal.

All Peredhil would've been mortal until Earendil and Elwing. Manwe made a proclamation:
Quote:
Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them.
Dior was never granted other doom, therefore he was mortal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Might
The quote from Letter #153 shows that Dior was given this choice. The question remaining is which choice did he make.
The quote describes the choice given to Earendil, Elwing, and their sons. Not Dior. The choice was only granted to them after Earendil and Elwing had acted so admirably in the final days of the First Age.

Quote:
But I would still quibble that Elrond et al were not merely "Half-Elves by title only", but, simply, Half-Elves.
Quote:
Well, "technically", he was a full elf after he and Elros made their choices. After that, he was a half-elven by title only.
Formendacil is correct. What is "a full elf"? Elrond can never be anything other than what he is. Tolkien never refers to him (or any of the immortal half-elven) as an elf - simply stating that "Elrond chose to be among the Elves" (Letter 153). His blood or genetic makeup doesn't change; he was just "granted the same grace" (Appendix A, ROTK). There is no reason to now call him an elf just because he shares their fate.

Likewise, Tuor does not 'become an elf.' He is still a Man; he is simply granted the same grace.
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Old 03-02-2007, 03:35 AM   #27
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His blood or genetic makeup doesn't change; he was just "granted the same grace" (Appendix A, ROTK).
Your quote is misleading. It reffers to the ability to pass over to the west, not to his immortality.
Quote:
Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world.
Quote:
What is "a full elf"?
...
There is no reason to now call him an elf just because he shares their fate.
It wasn't just sharing their fate, but also their other abilities, which I mentioned previously. Anyway, do I understand correctly that you consider Men, Half-Elven and Elves to have the same "blood or genetic makeup"? If so, what would make a Half-Elven less of an elf, than a "naturally" born Elf?
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Old 03-02-2007, 04:21 AM   #28
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Rhod the Red is still gossiping in the Green Dragon.
"There is no reason to now call him an elf just because he shares their fate"

He lived the life of one, therefore accepted in his community as a full Elf.
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Old 03-02-2007, 10:56 AM   #29
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See, here's what I'm trying to get at...

I do not deny any aspect of Elrond's Elvishness. I would agree that, in pretty much all respects, he is an Elf's Elf. He seems more Elven than Galadriel, Fëanor, and Finrod at times. Possibly, however, this is because as a Half-elf, he has, consciously or unconsciously, molded himself to be as Elven as possible, moreso than a full-blooded Elf, who would just BE an Elf, and not worry about being LIKE one.

I also have a mindset wherein the phrase "blood is thicker than water" holds some validity. Deny it or embrace it, your family history, where you come from, affects who and what you are.

A really good analogy is Spock, off of the original Star Trek-- the Vulcan of Vulcans, who nonetheless is half-human and cannot be anything but half-human. It's not an exact analogy, but it gets at where I'm coming from.

Or, look at it from the point of view of citizenship. Elrond can be said to be a citizen of both (using random countries for demonstrative effect) Uzbekistan and Uganda. Then the United Nations (ie. Valar) comes along and says that you can only be a citizen of one country. Elrond, born in Uganda, would be by default a Ugandian. However, the United Nations are not without their Niënna, and so all the dual citizens are given a choice of which nation they wanted to belong to. Elrond, raised Uzbeks and preferring that side of the family tree, chooses to be an Uzbek citizen.

Does this mean that Elrond is no longer a Ugandian at all? He may not be OFFICIALLY a Ugandian, but he still has Ugandian heritage, and he still has Ugandian family ties, and his genetic heritage is still part Ugandian (and as an aside, I would say that if Ugandians and Uzbeks can both be biologically human and reproduce, and yet have different typical characteristics it stands to reason that humans and Elves might have similar, though different, differences).
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Old 03-02-2007, 11:43 AM   #30
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Well said, Formendacil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
Your quote is misleading. It reffers to the ability to pass over to the west, not to his immortality.
It wasn't just sharing their fate, but also their other abilities, which I mentioned previously.
I think his fate is implied. The fact that he shares their abilities remains unchanged by his fate. He would share their abilities in any event. Imagine that he never receives the choice. He eventually dies as he is mortal, given Manwe's judgement. His nature is due to his ancestry and environment, not his fate.
Quote:
He lived the life of one, therefore accepted in his community as a full Elf.
He is not accepted as "a full Elf" and has no need to be. He is accepted as himself, Elrond Peredhil. Half-elven, and of the lineage of Finwë, Thingol, and Melian. Socially accepted among the Elven, and they are all aware of his family more than anyone. They know the story backwards and forwards. Why does he need to become anything other than Half-elven?

Likewise, Gimli "lived the life of one" on Tol Eressëa, but that does not change his fundamental kind. He is a dwarf, and accepted as a dwarf.
Quote:
It wasn't just sharing their fate, but also their other abilities, which I mentioned previously. Anyway, do I understand correctly that you consider Men, Half-Elven and Elves to have the same "blood or genetic makeup"? If so, what would make a Half-Elven less of an elf, than a "naturally" born Elf?
They must be of the same genetic structure, but not the same genetic makeup. By genetic makeup, I mean the specific genes passed to him by his parents. Just as native Africans and native Europeans have the same genetic structure - they are H. sapiens with 46 chromosomes - but do not have identical genotypes.* The offspring of a native European and a native African will be less European than a "full" European, and less African than a "full" African - yet any one offspring has the chance at being much more phenotypically† one or the other.

Which actually brings me to a better description. Elrond's phenotypes are all, or at least more often, Elven where there is a difference between Men and Elves. However, that does not change his genotype. He is still Half-elven.

It may be even logical to presume that this is why he chose to be immortal - he was more Elven in manner, felt more connected to that aspect of his ancestry, etc.

* genotype - an organism's genome, or genetic makeup
† phenotype - the actual characteristics expressed as a result of genotype and environment
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Last edited by Legolas; 03-02-2007 at 11:49 AM. Reason: 46 chromosomes - not 4!
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Old 03-02-2007, 12:30 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil
I would agree that, in pretty much all respects, he is an Elf's Elf.
Then, if I understand correctly, we are in agreement .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legolas
Likewise, Tuor does not 'become an elf.' He is still a Man; he is simply granted the same grace.
I doubt this is a correct interpretation:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Tuor and the fall of Gondolin, Silmarillion
But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.
Why would he be numbered among the elder race if he wasn't an elf himself? How could he still be a Man if he doesn't share their fate anymore?
Quote:
The fact that he shares their abilities remains unchanged by his fate.
I am not aware that Elros displayed any ability I mentioned - nor that any Man shared them. This are specific Elvish traits, gifts of their race.
Quote:
He would share their abilities in any event.
Why? Is there any sign he had them before he made the choice?
Quote:
Likewise, Gimli "lived the life of one" on Tol Eressëa, but that does not change his fundamental kind. He is a dwarf, and accepted as a dwarf.
I would call this a false comparison. Gimli didn't make any choice (as Elrond did); he was a guest in the elves' home. He would die there, to the manner of his kin; Elrond would live to the end of the world, as elves do.
Quote:
Which actually brings me to a better description. Elrond's phenotypes are all, or at least more often, Elven where there is a difference between Men and Elves. However, that does not change his genotype. He is still Half-elven.
What sets apart Half-Elven from Elves from Men among them (in genotypes, or by whatever criteria you consider relevant)?
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Old 03-02-2007, 03:36 PM   #32
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I am not aware that Elros displayed any ability I mentioned - nor that any Man shared them. This are specific Elvish traits, gifts of their race.
How would you be? We're told very little about Elros. Any apparent difference would certainly be explainable - his genotype may be from the same parents, but his phentotype still may be different, just as brothers of any sort can be and usually are different. The influence of his ancestry does not disappear because he has chosen mortality. Being of elvish descent I would expect Elros to exhibit flashes of Elvishness. Why wouldn't he? It is precedent. His extra long life is the obvious example. There also seems to be traces of Elvish strength and 'wisdom' or 'cunning' in some of his descendents (evident in Aragorn). This also makes Aragorn's childhood in Rivendell understandable, or at least easier on Aragorn. Also, see below for the Imrahil-Legolas point.

Quote:
Why? Is there any sign he had them before he made the choice?
We're given no reason to believe that they magically appear when he chooses to be immortal. To say that they did would be more speculative, and goes against what we see.

As dilute as Imrahil's Elvish strain was, Legolas still recognizes it instantly:
Quote:
At length they came to the Prince Imrahil, and Legolas looked at him and bowed low; for he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins. ‘Hail, lord!’ he said. ‘It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth’s haven west over water.’
Imrahil's only elven ancestor was twenty-three generations ago. Why then do you think Elros and Elrond would not show the "elven-blood in [their] veins"?

Quote:
I would call this a false comparison. Gimli didn't make any choice (as Elrond did); he was a guest in the elves' home. He would die there, to the manner of his kin; Elrond would live to the end of the world, as elves do.
The point was directed solely at Rhod's comment - you do not have to become an elf to be accepted into elven society. The fact that Elrond is accepted has nothing to do with "being a full Elf."

Quote:
What sets apart Half-Elven from Elves from Men among them (in genotypes, or by whatever criteria you consider relevant)?
The mixture of Elven and human traits? I'm not sure what else you're looking for.
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:05 AM   #33
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I have overlook the importance of your statement, since, frankly, our whole debate hinges on this:
Quote:
Elrond's phenotypes are all, or at least more often, Elven where there is a difference between Men and Elves. However, that does not change his genotype. He is still Half-elven.
In what instances does Elrond behave/is like a Man and not like an Elf (-if any, in fact)?
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Old 03-03-2007, 12:00 PM   #34
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Tuor did not become an elf. He was "numbered among the elder race" - dwelt with them, was part of their population in Aman, shared their fate, etc.

Likewise, "Elrond chose to be among the Elves" (L. 153). Not to be an Elf, but to be among them.

I said all because I had no immediate recollection of a human trait observed in him, but added or at least more often as a simple disclaimer because he appears so little in the books - more than Elros, for example, but still nowhere near the amount of exposure that one of the Fellowship had.

The entire question is proven with this. If Elrond became a "full elf" after he made his decision, then his children would not require a "renewed elvish strain from their mother" to be granted the choice. If Elrond was a "full elf," they would be simply elves as well, and immortal, no questions asked. But they are not. "His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices" (L. 153).
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Old 03-03-2007, 12:18 PM   #35
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All Peredhil would've been mortal until Earendil and Elwing.
But hadn't the Peredhil all lived immortal lives even before this? Dior's dates are uncertain, according to the encyclopaedia of Arda, and he clearly was slain when young.
But Earendil and Elwing were both born around 500 FA. The voyage was around 573, was it not? They don't strike me as a couple of old dears - Elwing flying around in bird's shape and so on...so they clearly did not age like mortal men and women did.

And does no-one have the answer to my query about the twins and the Nandor?
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Old 03-03-2007, 02:18 PM   #36
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This gives no reason to expect that they were living immortal lives. I would expect that Dior, his children, and Earendil would've lived very long lives. Earendil and Elwing's mortal son Elros lived 500 years. I can't find any figures to give an idea of a Man's lifespan in the First Age - each date of death seems to be because the person was killed.

Still, later Elendil and Isildur lived in excess of 200 years and only died at their respective ages because they were slain. They do not appear to be withering of old age - Elendil is slain in combat with Sauron as he is leading an army of men while Isildur is murdered in the Disaster of Gladden Fields.

Aragorn lived 210 years, though that is very long for someone at that time. Even Theoden, with no immortal ancestors whatsoever, is still leading an army and fighting at age 71 when he is slain at Pelennor Fields. Éomer goes on to live to 93.

As for the twins and Nandor question, I'll look into it.
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Old 03-04-2007, 02:39 AM   #37
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Tuor did not become an elf. He was "numbered among the elder race" - dwelt with them, was part of their population in Aman, shared their fate,
Then what does Tuor become? Does he still remain a mortal?

In letter #131, Tolkien states that the nature of Men "could not endure" immortality, and it is apparent that this quote is in refference to letter #156, where it is said:
Quote:
The view is taken (as clearly reappears later in the case of the Hobbits that have the Ring for a while) that each 'Kind' has a natural span, integral to its biological and spiritual nature. This cannot really be increased qualitatively or quantitatively; so that prolongation in time is like stretching a wire out ever tauter, or 'spreading butter ever thinner' – it becomes an intolerable torment.
In my interpretation of these, no Man can be immortal.

IIRC, Tolkien comments in the letters that the view of Man that they were or can, or should be immortals is a lie induced by Melkor. Concerning this subject, Tolkien notes in his comments on the Atrabeth that (emphasis added):
Quote:
He remains, nonetheless, in the opinion that the condition of Men before the disaster (or as we might say, of unfallen Man) cannot have been the same as that of the Elves. That is, their 'immortality' cannot have been the longevity within Arda of the Elves; otherwise they would have been simply Elves, and their separate introduction later into the Drama by Eru would have no function.
If I can rephrase that: if a Man is immortal, then he is simply an Elf.
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Old 03-04-2007, 04:27 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
Then what does Tuor become? Does he still remain a mortal?
What you are doing, Raynor, is defining a man as mortal and an elf as an immortal, and saying there is NO other difference.

What I am arguing--and what I think Legolas is arguing--that there are further differences, just as there are between different ethnic groups of humans.
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Old 03-04-2007, 04:31 PM   #39
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But the Edain were granted their long lifespan three times that of ordinary men, by the Valar, when they left for Numenor. Elros got 500 years, but again, all the references I find have him getting that lifespan at the time he made his choice, not before. So Aragorn, as his descendant, was getting the grace of the Valar that had been granted at the end of the First Age.
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Old 03-04-2007, 04:35 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalaith
But the Edain were granted their long lifespan three times that of ordinary men, by the Valar, when they left for Numenor. Elros got 500 years, but again, all the references I find have him getting that lifespan at the time he made his choice, not before. So Aragorn, as his descendant, was getting the grace of the Valar that had been granted at the end of the First Age.
There is an age difference, though, between the Line of Elros and the average Edainic Númenorean. In the case of Elros' descendents, until the shadow fell on Númenor, four hundred years was the standard lifespan, whereas the Normal Númenorean only lived 250-300 years. Even as the lifespan of the Elrosians dropped after they began to rebel against the Valar, they seem to have consistantly had longer lifespans than the average around them. Elendil lived past three hundred, and died in battle not of old age. By the time of Aragorn, I agree, the longevity is simply general Númenorean, but in earlier times there was a marked difference.
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