A question about Wizards

[Susan Delgado]

I know this information is probably in the Silmarillion, but I haven't read it (and it's a bit difficult to find right now), so I'll ask you guys here [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

If there are only five wizards, and they're high up in the godly echelon, why do they need a leader for their order? Or is Saruman the leader of the Wise, and not only the Wizards? Or something else? Like, he's really the Wizards' spokesman for the Wise?

(Yay! My Pile O' Bones has consolidated into a Skeleton! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])

[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: Susan Delgado ]

[Manelwen]

Saruman was supposedly the 'wisest' of the Istari. Until he joined the same baseball team as Sauron, then the elves and Gandalf, who was like the second in command took over. He's the captain now. Oops, too much baseball goes to the brain. Eh. Well, you get the point, right? *shakes head and wanders off muttering about her baseball team*

[Susan Delgado]

Ah, thanks Manelwen. My confusion has been assuaged. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[lathspell]

When the five Istari came over the seas, Saruman was greatest of their order and demanded leadership, although Galadriel advised Gandalf to be leader and Cirdan aleady gave Narya to Gandalf, because he forsaw great danger for him in the future. But Saruman became the leader and studied the lore of elven-rings and especially the Great Rings and the One Ring. It didn't even take that long before he made plans of getting the Ring himself, but when he asked Gandalf to rule ME with him, his plans were reveiled and it was known that he had fallen to evil. Gandalf was imprisoned but escaped with the help of Gwaihir Windlord. After his 'death' by the balrog, he was sent back to achieve his quest. He was more powerful and cast out Saruman from their order, and became leader of the White Council.

Why they wanted a leader I do not know, but I think it was only for good order (or Saruman was corrupted already when he came over the seas and wanted leadership as a cover-up). And the White Council are the five Istari, and the Wise are (I believe): Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast. Maybe Cirdan was one of them as well, but I don't think so.

I hope this is enough of information and that it doesn't make it more difficult to understand. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
greetings, lathspell

[Susan Delgado]

Ah, thanks, that was a very helpful answer. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I didn't ask for any particular reason, just through a desire for greater understanding of what I've read. I've looked for the Silmarillion, but the used bookstore (only one, oh woe!) here in town hasn't had it for months, and the only new bookstore is Barnes & Noble and I refuse to shop there. I'll just have to keep looking, I guess.

[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: Susan Delgado ]

[Arwen Imladris]

Susan Delgado, have you tried the Library? That is where I got mine from, well borrowed it. It is not as good as owning it but at least you can read it.

Good luck [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[lathspell]

When I read it for the first time, I had borrowed it from the library as well. You might try, Susan.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

The White Council couldn't have included all five Wizards, because Allatar and Pallando (the blue istari) had been lost in the east for years before the foundation of the White Council... right? And I don't think "the Wise" is a distinct class of people that only certain ones belong to... I think the wise just refers to those in Middle Earth that are wise... I wouldn't hesitate to include Treebeard and Bombadil

[lathspell]

Sophia - I don't think either Treebeard or Tom Bombadil was in the White Council. As is said in the LotR the White Council drove the Necromancer (Sauron) out of Dol Dulgur, mountain of sorcery. The White Council considers all matters in M-E, and neither Tom Bombadil or Treebeard do not, they only consider and solve problems in their own lands. They both have set borders, at least it is said in LotR that Tom Bombadil has set borders, which no one can see. And I believe that Treebeard has set some kind of borders as well for he never comes out of Fangorn anymore (as is said in the LotR too).

So in my opinion I think that they (and I think Cirdan must be thought of too in this case) are held Wise, but they weren't part of the White Council for they did not give any heed to Outlandish matters, especially Tom Bombadil as Gandalf points out in LotR at the Council of Elrond, when Elrond asks the himself the question if he should have invited Tom Bombadil, Gandalf answers:'He would not have come.'

In my point of view the White Council is made by two elves and three istari: Gandalf, Elrond, Saruman, Galadriel and Radagast.

[Susan Delgado]

I also knew that all the Wise consisted of was those five people; I was just wondering about the relationship between the Wise and the other wizards and the link between them, which is Saruman.

[Raefindel]

Costco had a bunch of Tolkien books last time I went and they were way cheaper thatn anywhere else I saw them.

Cool Pic, Manelwen ! Where did you find it?

[Thalionyulma]

If there are only five wizards, and they're high up in the godly echelon, why do they need a leader for their order? Or is Saruman the leader of the Wise, and not only the Wizards? Or something else? Like, he's really the Wizards' spokesman for the Wise?

The Valar sent the Istari to come and aid the Elves and Man. The White Council was formed to counter the darkness/evil that was growing. Originally four istari, Yavanna (or was it Varda?) requested Olorin/Mithrandir/Gandalf to go too (in UT).

I believe that originally Galadriel had wanted Gandalf to head the White council, but Gandalf declined. That she suspected Saruman of his duplicity is not known stated. The leadership than fell on Saruman. Spokesperson? naw... it was more like the head of the council would "advice" through his wisdom.

Saruman/Curunir was considered the most skilled (and crafty). Gandalf, in my opinion was more humble (I too would have voted for him to head the council).

I think that the title "The White" was a rank of sorts the Istari gained depending on the fulfillment of their duties as was set upon them. Gandalf did gain this title after he defeated Saruman. (Okay, after he was "resurrected", he became Gandalf the White). Its in TTT... but Unfinished Tales has a section regarding the Istari - its a good read, like the Silmarilion. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]


sorry if this post was kinda long... i tend to blab... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: Thalionyulma ]

[KingCarlton]

If they had a song it would go like this...

Saruman : If you're taking a walk through the garden of life
What do you think you'd expect you would see?
Just like a mirror reflecting the moves of your life
And in the river reflections of me

Gandalf : Just for a second a glimpse of my father I see
And in a movement he beckons to me
And in a moment the memories are all that remain
And all the wounds are reopening again

Radagast : We're blood brothers
Alatar : We're blood brothers
Pallando :We're blood brothers

Gandalf : We're blood brothers

Saruman : My Blood, My brothers.

Cheers !

[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[lathspell]

The pic. of Manelwen is of a magic-card called Kaysa (if I am correct). A great game.

[Susan Delgado]

I finally got to the library and checked it out. It's good so far (I'm in the middle of the chapter about the Elves going to Valinor). Has anyone else found they had to take notes to keep all the groups of Elves differentiated?

[Thalionyulma]

have you read the Book of Lost Tales yet? It'll make you dizzy with all them elf kinds... sheez - Gnomes, Solosimpi, etc... and Beren is a Gnome in BoLT (the one with The Lay of Leithian)

Yes I had to take notes...

KC - neat song [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[lathspell]

Well, I didn't have to make notes with the Silmarillion, but I haven't read UT yet.

[Mankáno]

The term wise was referred to the Istari ( the wizards) and the higuest among the Eldar (Elrond, Cirdan, Galadriel, probably Glorfindel).

There isn't much information about the Istari in either LOTR or the Silmarillion, there is a little more in Unfinished Tales.

there are some notes from Tolkien, not included in LOTR or the Silmarillion that refer to them.

Apparently there was a council of the Valar where they decided to send some Maiar to Middle Earth to help in the fight against Sauron.

But learning from past mistakes, the Valar decided that they couldn't use their powers or show themselves in all their majesty and beauty, but they had to gain the hearts and the minds of those opposed to Sauron by advices, and using their wisdom but not their powers.

It's known the Istari that arrived to Middle Earth around 1000, third age were five: Curumo (Curunir or Saruman), Allatar, Pallando, Aiwendil (Radagast) and Olorin (Gandalf).

Saruman was the first chosen and apparently he was a maia of Aule, Allatar and Pallando were related to Orome, Radagast to Yavannah and Gandalf to Manwe and Varda.

Saruman was the most powerful, at least in Middle earth, the reasons are not explained but when Saruman become evil, Gandalf took his place. It isn't clear in LOTR but knowing the history you understand what happened when Gandalf died fighting the Balrog, as a Maiar he couldn't die, his spirit left to Aman and he was sent back to finish his mission, but at this stage, he came with his powers, although he could only use them in extreme cases (like when he faced the Lord of the Nazgul in Minas Tirith). That's why Gandalf said he had forgotten many things he thought he knew and learned many things he had forgotten, and Aragorn said that he could travel faster than anyone else if he wanted to.

Sorry, a little off topic, but Saruman was corrupted, Radagast lost the sense of his mission and dedicated to animals, and the Blue wizards apparently went to the East with Saruman and never came back, it's not known what happened to them and they are not mentioned in LOTR or the Silmarillion except when Saruman refers to the 5 wizards.

They could have been more than 5, they only mention those who came to the North of Middle Earth, but there could have been more in other areas.

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Mankáno ]