Are You Writing Serious Fantasy?

[NazgulNumber10]

I just read the thing starbreeze said on page five about getting bullied and using the anger to write. Well you hit the nail on the head. Thats just what I do. I'm too small and weak to fight back (:mad [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img], so i use my hate as fual for the fire. As your can tell, it's a very dark story. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] (laughs evily from computer in barad-dur as lighting steaks thought the sky and more nazgul ride by)
Man thats a comfy couch
[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[NazgulNumber10]

sorry page 4 (smacks himself in head)
[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[NazgulNumber10]

wo ho Imade it to pile o'bones. Plus today I finished the first chapter of my book. It'll need some revisionns But im happy with this milestone
|_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|)
nother round'
[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Niphredil Baggins]

I wonder if Littlemanpoet means that I spoiled some surprises for him about Chrystal Heart, or that someone might steal my story... anyways, it is true I should have written what I wrote to our group... but I was in the computer class, and I had no paper to scribble on... I needed to write something on something, so I wrote it on the internet! I'm weird, I know... I think I'll try to edit the messages... poor me... anyways, all I told was misleading! And if someone steals the ideas, none of them is new in the first place... read my sig.

[Elenna]

Starbreeze, the way I make my adventures that I write sound realistic is by doing a lot of research. That sounds unbearably boring, but it works. I read a lot of stuff about the kind of settings, weapons, and characters. I also always read parts of LOTR that apply.

Plus, I'm obsessed. I get in trouble in class for not paying attention because I'm puzzling out a new scene!

Oh, and thanks for the round!

[Joy]

I do the same thing. I reseach each thing that I write, whether it be a Tolkien fact or sword design. I want the reader to be pulled into the story. I want the to feel everything that each character feels.

Also, I want each character to be "true to life", a person that the reader can relate to, even if it is the villan.

[Naaramare]

Plus, I'm obsessed. I get in trouble in class for not paying attention because I'm puzzling out a new scene!

Good Goddess do I know that feeling. XD Constant! Sudden questions from the teacher are bad for that, too . . . "um, what was the question?"

[littlemanpoet]

Do you use interlacing in your story? You know, two or more plot threads running through your story simultaneously and you skip back and forth between them. Tolkien used it in Two Towers and the first half of Return of the King. His was more spread out, a hundred or more pages spent on one thread at a time. If you do interlacing, how do you do it and how do recommend doing it? What about interspersing every other chapter (I'm experimenting with that right now)? What are the dangers? Pitfalls? Benefits? Some of this has been dealt with on the "Interlacing" thread on Books II. Some comments from that thread are:

Me:

If Tolkien had NOT done interlacing, but had resorted to the OTHER ways of telling the same story (EITHER by an omniscient author perspective which pulls you out of the story too much OR by leaving you hanging until the end and finding out everything else that fed into the climax only at the denouement), it would have been very unsatisfactory, and important characters like Merry, Pippin, Legolas and Gimli, not to mention Theoden, Eowyn, and all the rest that were not directly about Frodo, Sam and Gollum, would never have received the character development Tolkien gave them.

Nar said:

...it drove me crazy every time the action switched...Today, a writer would probably organize the story into shorter segmants and do rapid cutting as in movies. Those long books had a certain hypnotic effect-- particularly the Frodo and Sam and Gollum story. I think on the whole that that effect was worth a little frusteration.

Akhtene said:

It allowed to create a really whole historical picture, not just describe the adventures of a group of characters. And even if it drives somebody mad, first of all it whips up curiosity, desire to know what is happening to other characters at the time of some other events described. You sort of find yourself in several places at one and the same time.
I'm only too happy that Tolkien didn't use this interlacing from the very start of the first book (or maybe he didn't need to?..) I don't believe it can make a good beginning, when the reader is absolutely confused by unrelated characters,places and situations, starts making wild guesses or simply can't understand what it is all about.

Problem is, I'm starting it right off in the beginning. First chapter's about big brother, second about little brother, third about big brother again...

Kuruharan said:

Be glad he didn't alternate between the groups every couple of chapters. If he had it probably would have destroyed any sense of continuity in the story.

Uh-oh. Like, that's exactly what I'm doing. How do I NOT break the sense of continuity? How do YOU handle it?

NyteSky said: [QUOTE] [/If it's driving you crazy to find out what happens next but then you get really involved in the part that you're in only to have it switch back, then the author did it perfectly. That way you keep reading because to stop would cause the built up curiousity to slowly eat away at your brain until you go raving mad. It's a tricky line to walk though. Too much space between parts, or one boring part and the author can lose the audience. It's risky, but worth it if done well.QUOTE]
Ah. That one makes me feel a little better. So waddaya think, friends?

And Happy Writing!

[Saxony Tarn]

Hey -- way to go LMP, you'll have us on page NINE soon enough! Great thing that you mention, as one of my actually completed tales has three main characters whose threads are interlaced and i do switch between them often.

The chapters though each represent a day, so i switch between them as if i were the cameraman on a soap opera set, and give the reader each's activities for the day, first dwelling on one, then cutting to the other, and so forth. (And at three points in the story, all three are on stage at the same time)

The tale isn't grand or long enough to be able to devote one chapter or more to each divergent thread -- Tolkein had that luxury, and when the Fellowship split up, pretty much had to! Taking that much time on each one also allowed him to focus (and back when it was written, readers had longer attention spans -- now, we want instant updates on everyone!)

One experiment i did for a college class (when i was first writing Ace of Cups (the story i mention)) was extract one character's thread from the story and submit it as a novella to the class, to see if it could stand alone as a story focused on, say, Udo, with Karlena and Kieter mentioned only where their threads crossed. i'd like to think that it does.

Before pontificating further i should probably read your work so as to know what i'm talking about -- where was that site again? In Niphredil's sig?

B)

s.t.

|_|) <-- pint break!

[Starbreeze]

Firstly, NazgulNumber10, may I congratulate you on your poetry. Poetry is a much underestimated and misunderstood genre. I write poetry to supplement my story, and before that I wrote free standing poetry. Yours is very good and you should be congratulated for many people are too scared of what people will say to write or display poetry. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Plus, I'm obsessed. I get in trouble in class for not paying attention because I'm puzzling out a new scene!

Tell me about it! That is so familiar!

Do you use interlacing in your story? If you do interlacing, how do you do it and how do recommend doing it? What about interspersing every other chapter (I'm experimenting with that right now)? What are the dangers? Pitfalls? Benefits? Some of this has been dealt with on the "Interlacing" thread on Books II. Some comments from that thread are:

Oh gosh! Where to start. Well, yes, I do use interlacing in my story, it wrote itself in. My whole story is based on events happening in three places across the land, which culminate in the second book.
How do I do it? Well, it varies, sometimes I change my thread every few chapters or so, I think the largest gap is three chapters, and sometimes I switch within chpters - usually when there is a lot of action going on in two of the places - this has the effect of creating cliffhangers in the middle of action, but as you pointed out some people find it hard to get into the story when it is done like that, so I do it only when necessary.
Changing thread every chapter - well, I wouldn't advise it, it is best if you let the reader get into each thread a little way before cutting them off, or they will find it hard to settle and follow the plot. I would do it more the Tolkien way - every few chapters.
The benefits of interlacing is that you can tell more than one story which are linked in some way, and have a big climax at the end - or maybe leave the book on a cliffhanger and continue in another book.
The pitfalls? Well, you can disgruntle some readers, and if they are not executed effectively they can ruin the story, making it seem jumpy and not flowing properly (gah, what awful grammer!)
I started my interlacing right at the start of the book too, for me it was the only way to introduce all the characters fairly simultaniously, portray events that happen at almost the same time but in different places, side by side, and from then on it developed into the way I write my story.
So many things in my story happen at the same time as things elsewherem this makes it very difficult to write effectively without interlacing. My story (the first book anyway) is set over a time of only 20 days, but an awful lot happens all over Philan'noth and it all needs to be noted.

[NazgulNumber10]

Thanx. I do like to share my writings, but hate to show them when they are incomplete. For some time in school I was working on the first chapter for my story and every one wanted to read it. The problem is, with out the ending ( a big plot twist) it was meaningless, and lead up to nothing. There was noything to keep them itrested or to think about untill I finished that part. Now I have gone over it about 8 times ( it must be perfect) and found more ways to draw people into it. I think that the first chapter, or even paragraph of a book is very important. It must draw readers in but not reveil too much so there is some sort of mystery involved. For fantasy, this is quite hard. Oh well enough of my ramblings, and thanx again starbreeze.
[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[AragornsHeir]

I have written many fantasies. One I’ve only been working on for a year but I have three others that have been developing about Vampires for nearly six years. And it's hard not to take some of Ann Rice's Ideas. And never yet have I found a fantasy writer that has not been inspired by Tolkien and thus taken some of his ideas and incorporated and twisted things into there own. "You cannot create new things in a world where everything has been thought of" A friend of mine that writes as well and it is also said by my father who has written and published many books.
I read "Kalasins Rant" as it were. And I agreed with you as a wrighter. Her characters waverd as well. I didn't like that at all.

[Starbreeze]

I think that the first chapter, or even paragraph of a book is very important. It must draw readers in but not reveil too much so there is some sort of mystery involved. For fantasy, this is quite hard

Yes, to use a phrase prehaps overly used in this thread - you've hit the nail on the head there. All I can say is there seems to be an awful lot of nails in fantasy writing.
Thats ok, a writer needs to be praised or they will loose heart and the world be deprived of much of its beautiful writings.

[Naaramare]

If you do interlacing, how do you do it and how do recommend doing it?

My current story, not very much. I chose First Person Past as my tense, and boy is it a [radio edit]. I break out of it a little bit with short interludes from other POV's--the story is being set up as if the heroine is telling this from journals she kept during the time, memory spells and there are a few things for which she needs other people's input for, because she didn't know what was going on at the time.

In general, when writing from third-person I do interlacing a lot. Generally, starting out which a chapter-ish length per POV at the beginning, then cutting down to either just one POV or more rapid switches closer to the end of the action.

[Lila Bramble]

Two or more plot lines weaving together? Sometimes by accident it happens, but I don't try to, since it would be too hard to understand and craziness to make an ending for each plot. I do have one event that has affect on another, then another, and so on, but I never intentionly have more than 1 plot line.

[Saxony Tarn]

Welcome to Aragorn's Heir -- |_|) <-- here's your official AYWSF pint. Drink up!

Great things to share here (you too Starbreeze, with poetry breaks in your tales!) let's keep this topic going…

…unless you'll allow me to sidetrack it off on a POV question:

owing to the nature of my fanfic, i'm telling it from what should best be considered "Third-Person Limited Omniscient" in that the reader has a wiretap only on the internal thoughts of one character and hears the other's speech and "thoughts" only when they are expressed in a manner that at least one other character can intuit (thus a telepathic exchange between, say, Rhigellan and Iârangol counts as "conversation" even though it is not vocalized (and thus put in quotes, as my rule is if it's in quotes, then it was said out loud) since it's set apart from the standard text in some way to mark it as 'non-private thought', but what they personally think of, for example, the other members of the party, unless one of them says anything explicitly, the reader doesn't know (whereas the reader knows more of what main character's opinions of things than said character is comfortable having the reader know, thanks to those wiretaps in his head)

i've dealt well with 3P-God's-Eye-View perspectives before by focusing on one character's thoughts at a time, pulling the camera back before getting into another character's head so as not to disorient the reader too much (as i am fond of putting a story away for a year, then picking it up and reading it afresh -- best way to edit if you have that luxury!)

The sticker in the current project, given the premise and the way it's set up, comes in when the particular character whose skull has been metaphorically wired with the listening bugs engages in internal debate with himself, at which point two other perspectives emerge (Conscience uses 2PV, addressing him as "you", Ego responds in 1PV) Internal monologue is one standard of 1PV narration, but Internal Dialogue?

Don't misunderstand me -- as the writer, i'm completely comfortable with this, but my question is how other readers would find it. i, being used to such shifts, find it natural and engaging (as if i'm eavesdropping on this Freudian conundrum that he finds himself in) but i'm wondering if others find such devices confusing.

(probably it's a good thing that this is not intended for the paying market -- as the psychological aspect of this tale is something that's best pulled off amazingly well or not at all! B) )

s.t.

|_|) <-- raise your glass!

[littlemanpoet]

ST, I'm really intriqued, but I feel like I'm getting lost in the variety of perspectives you mention and I'm trying to get my mind around them. Could you maybe provide snippet examples of the various 1pv 2pv and so forth?

I'll PM you regarding the fww site story and all that, soon as I've cleared it with enough VIPs.

Have some of that fav nectar of yours on me, ST |_|)

Regarding lengthening this thread:
It might be wise, folks, to keep our comments to a minimum in terms of lengthening the thread. I can imagine that the powers that be, deadbenevolent as they may be, may take a dim view on that and decided this thread has gone on long enough. Last thing we want is for it to disappear. When it got moved from Books II to Books, I thought it had gotten totally yanked! Talk about ruining someone's day! So I suggest that if you do want to celebrate the length of the thread, do so in the context of something that adds to the thread's topic - and let's all work to keep tying it into Tolkien - after all, this is a dedicated site. Teamwork and all that, friends.

Happy Writing!

[Saxony Tarn]

LMP -- good point about gratuitous thread-lengthening and well taken. We certainly do not wish to anger the guiding spirits of this board! On that note, since you asked for some snippets of the POV shift internal dialogue, i suppose that since this is the "Boromir in Purgatory" tale, it might get away with being dubbed "Tolkein-related"... B)
Longest example of internal dialog, pivotal plot point snipped from Chapter 20. Scene - North side of Emyn Arnen. In a grove in the woods, huddled under a thicket with a familiar dark-red roundshield stuck in the branches overhead to make a crude rain-block is a slumped figure in black plate armor, with an unresponsive, comatose body in its arms, both covered by an awfully familiar-looking Lorien-made cloak. Time: wee hours of May Day morning, TA3019, as the man in plate slowly wakes from a nightmare...

A bird perched in the branches about his shield dispelled the haunting with a tuneful chirping, bringing him to a groggy half-lucid state in a grove so silent that an acorn dropped by a squirrel overhead rung off his helmet with the low tone of a bell.
This cannot be real. This cannot be happening to me!
Of course it can, Denethorsson, you fell asleep on the watch again. Damned shoddy performance for one of your lofty rank and lengthy experience, if you ask me. And for how long were you out, pray tell? Long enough, perhaps, for seven to become eight?
Do you dare open your eyes?
Do I dare open my eyes, he thought in defiant answer, do I dare take your bait -- could it be that this is merely the foul trickery of that creature?
Oh, NOW you begin to get wise to this game! Better Latent than never, they say...
Do you want to take that chance?

I want very much to disbelieve this, he admitted, I want very much for this to be an illusion!
Of course you do -- how humiliating can it be for a Captain to lose a force of one troop? Then again, you have lost far more comrades of far longer acquaintance, truly, what difference does this relative stranger make?
I have lost friends and good men by the score, I have stopped my father from attempting to take my brother's life -- I have taken missile fire that would drop many men and still kept fighting to the last, and yet if I open my eyes to find that she has died while I slept, then I shall know pain and I am not willing to take that chance!
A parry, a feint, a thrust straight at his heart -- a chill darting through his chest from which the armor could not protect him, with all the pain of that third arrow: gotcha!

(camera sweep of grove, 3P narration resumes as he works up the courage to ascertain whether or not his incapacitated companion is still alive)

This is freshly written story meat from last week -- hope you find it tasty!

s.t.

(Note to Nar & Aragorn the Ranger -- yes, this is the same story you volunteered to test-read. bon appetit!)

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]

[Lily Tussle]

Regarding Point of View: I once read abook where each chapter was told from a different chracter's point of view. It was interesting, because it allowed you to see the story from several differnt angles, and it was much less confusing than the author-knows-all point of view. I, myself, tend to write in third person limited, but that gets rather dull after some time. Is there any way to focus on more than one character's thoughts and feelings but with out it being dubbed as "omniscient" (did I spell that right?), and therefore becoming sort of confusing as to whom we are focusing on now?

[Laiedheliel]

<font color=silver>Yum! S.T., I thought that was terrific! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

(as i am fond of putting a story away for a year, then picking it up and reading it afresh -- best way to edit if you have that luxury!)--s.t.

You can actually do this? When this happens to me, I usually end up changing the plot in ways I had never concieved possible when actually writing the story. Sure, I catch many more gramatical errors this way, but I also usually change major plot points (which were meant to stay intact!) or kill of a character I had not wanted to. I suppose my question here is, can you set your story down and come back to it without changing major turning points? I find I have big trouble with it...

Do you use interlacing in your story? You know, two or more plot threads running through your story simultaneously and you skip back and forth between them.--LMP

I find I like doing this when I am trying to show both the good and evil sides of things in my story. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] A chapter or two dedicated to the bad guys ever so often is what I mean, just enough so the reader can try and predict what the bad guys are going to do; and it also gives the reader foreknowledge the main good guys don't have. Kinda like in the FotR movie, where the camera jumps from the good guys in Rivendell to Sauraman (sp?) in Isenguard (I had to try to incorperate LotR somehows... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])

Thanks for the pint! l_l)</color>

[NazgulNumber10]

I use 3rd person but give enough lee way so people can interpert it differently.
[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Thinhyandoiel]

Grr, I really hate my computer. I had this whole nice big reply all typed out, then when I go to hit "Add Reply" Computer crashes. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] Grr.

Anyways! Let's see how much I can remember, shall we? Littlemanpoet, wise words on keeping this Tolkien-tied. I've tried to incorporate him in my posts (I did this, Tolkien did this) But it's getting harder and harder lately with the new range of questions going on. Ah well, I'll just have to try harder, eh? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Now, let's see. Interlacing. In all my readings no author has ever gotten me so frustrated in this than Tolkien. Love the guy, really, but I just had the urge to choke him! (Not really, hyperbole there, I'm overexaggerating, didn't mean it, you get the picture...I was frustrated) I think after all the action of Helm's Deep, Isengard and Pippin snatching the Palantir and having a nice little chat with Sauron...having Sam and Frodo just popping up in the middle of the Emyn Muil just ruffled my feathers a wee bit. Then again, there was a switch earlier on between Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn to Pippin and Merry, but I didn't really notice it as much as I did this one. I should stop ranting, eh?

How do I do it? I don't. I have trouble with it, thus I try to avoid it. Before, when I was simply writing fanfiction, I found it was quite easy. Now, writing serious fantasy, I don't want to. But I know I have to sooner or later because I just left two of the main characters behind in a place where something really important is going to happen, at the same time when five of the other main characters go off on their mission. (I'm trying to give away any names or places for the people at fww) However, switching perspectives within the party is quite easy. Going from Deomer to Aven is my fave switch, because I like to see how the Elf would see it compared to the human. *shrugs* Am I making any sense, or am I just babbling? Bah, that'll teach me to miss breakfast, I can't think clearly. lol. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Starbreeze]

can you set your story down and come back to it without changing major turning points? I find I have big trouble with it...

Yeah, me too. For my exams - becuase I had to revise, I had to stop writing for a while, now I try and pick it up and I find I don't know where I am. Its like in a video when you go out to get a drink, and you come back and don't know who everyone is. Or when you're ill for a week and you go back to school/work and find that everything has changed. Sometimes I wonder if the people in my story don't have a life of their own - they sure write the story by themselves! I wonder how Tolkien found this - with such long stories he must have had the problem of loosing the thread, yet the final result shows no sign of loosing track - even after numerous drafts you can still see the joins in my story. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Grr, I really hate my computer. I had this whole nice big reply all typed out, then when I go to hit "Add Reply" Computer crashes. Grr.

That happens to me a lot too.

[Saxony Tarn]

Laie-- why thank you! i thought so! B)

to the reasonably new member who asked about getting into more than one character's thoughts w/o confusing the reader -- may i suggest you zoom in on one character at a time and change the zoom when the stress shifts. Thus, you're in only one head at a time, but you're in more than one character's head during the story. (it's hard at first but gets easier with practice. i used this for a romance -- depending on which of the characters was in the proverbial hot-seat at any given time, that's whose internal angst i eavesdropped on.)

It should probably be noted that Tolkein apparently never got into the characters' inner thoughts much if at all. Did it get in the way of the action? Or did he want us to speculate (and therefore left us ample room) ?? Or did he just not find that as interesting as the action?

Your guess is as good as mine!

s.t.

|_|) <-- skoal!

[littlemanpoet]

Saxony Tarn: I enjoyed the internal dialogue. Good stuff! You really do know how to get into a character. I like Denethorsson. Nice touch.

It should probably be noted that Tolkein apparently never got into the characters' inner thoughts much if at all. Did it get in the way of the action? Or did he want us to speculate (and therefore left us ample room) ?? Or did he just not find that as interesting as the action?

Wow, ST, that's worthy of a thread all its own. I wonder if it's already been discussed on some thread over the last 2 years? Hmmmm.

Lily Tussle: There are tricks of the trade, I suppose, but I don't know that I'm any kind of expert. ST's advice seems to me to be as good as any. One thing I might suggest is that your characters are known for using different vocabulary sets, or if you draw the characters clearly enough, the kinds of things they say to themselves should be different enough from each other so the reader is clear.
Since Tolkien didn't get inside characters' heads much, it's hard to use him as an example. However, he did do something like it. I remember reading in the Two Towers how he comments omnisciently about the nature of Sam's thinking, the kinds of tendencies he exhibited in terms of Gollum and Frodo. So that's another way.
As for my way, I have two brothers who are really different from each other; one strong, cool, in command, seeking adventure - the other weak, sensitive, self-pitying, wanting badly to measure up but not knowing how to; they even see the world differently; the strong one sees vivid colors, sees blue jays, crows, goldfinches, squirrels, etc.; whereas the younger weaker sees 'some bird', 'lots of trees', and the world is either black, white, or gray to him. This may seem a bit over the top, but I try to be careful how I describe it, but suggesting and evoking - that is, showing, rather than telling (as I'm doing here). [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

By the way, I think I'm going to stick with my strategy for interlacing, which is not very different from ST's. But I don't intend to become stuck to a day by day switchover. And where the action speeds up, the switchovers become more frequent. One thing that I think Tolkien didn't do, or need to, but should be done in general when using interlacing, is to tie the threads together at the climax and show the pattern that has been weaved in the denouement. That denouement part of it is the one that still escapes me.
So here's a new question which may actually be an old one - HOW DO YOU END A STORY? Here's the problem: it's simply not possible to tie up all loose strings. Even Tolkien had to let Frodo and Bilbo and Gandalf go over the sea without telling us what will happen to them. Thus, as my signature keeps reminding me, the Road goes ever on and on. So what governs which loose strings get tied up and which ones don't?

Happy Writing!

[Laiedheliel]

HOW DO YOU END A STORY?--LMP

Thank you, LMP, for asking this one and giving me an oppertunity to vent. But before I do, I am going to incorperate Tolkien into this thread and say that I rather enjoyed his method of interlacing between the broken Fellowship, though the Helm's Deep/Frodo and Sam switch did kinda frustrate me also...

In my head, I have a climax all made up, an ending and tying up of plot threads all laid out and ready, but it is not down on paper yet. I know how the story is going to end, I think, but I just can't really get there. The characters are giving me problems, my environment is being disagreeable, it's just not working. GAH!! It is so freaking frustrating to have an ending and not know how to end it. Does that make sense? I hope so, it is reallly late. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I also feel better now.

[Thinhyandoiel]

How do you end a story?

I have no idea. Honestly, I can't see that far ahead yet. I don't even know what the enemy's name is yet. It's as much a mystery to my characters as it is to me. I know a sort of rough sketchy outline on how I'm going to tie the loose ends up when it's over, but I honestly don't know how it's going to end. I should start thinking about that soon, I'm guessing.

With Tolkien, I think it was easier for him to decide. He had a destination. Destroy the Ring, Go home. But then there was Saruman to deal with, kill him, live on. Having Frodo and Bilbo and Sam and...all of the Fellowship minus Aragorn and Boromir (for obvious reasons) sail to the West sort of wrapped it all up. He did a great job, and I think it was made easier because he had a goal. Does anyone know what their goal is yet? I'm still working mine out.

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks for the sympathizing, Laie and Thin. I did write all the way through the climax and the denouement once, but I'm really dissatisfied. I do have a goal, but things never work out quite the way it seems like they were supposed to. Who would have thought that it would be Gollum that ultimately makes sure the Ring fell into the Crack of Doom? (pretty nice segue, eh? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) My problem is that certain characters are very important and the first run through my story shows that the importance of my wizard, for example, never made it into the story. Now, does that mean I have a sequel, or that my story has a major flaw? I think both are true, but that means I have work to do to excise the flaw while leaving room for the sequel - which, by the way, has already been written some. Okay, I admit it: I have a trilogy or at least a duology (if that's a word). So much to write, so little time! Not really. Half a life time, probably - uh oh, I'll spare you all the melancholic thoughts... Anyways, I have a gut feeling that if I follow the line of each character that needs to be developed, while maintaining a page-turner type of grip to the story, then the END should reveal itself - maybe a lot later - or sooner - than I expect. Anybody else on Endings?

[Saxony Tarn]

Thanks LMP! :: pats self on back :: w/ regards to him addressing himself by a patronymic, almost in a drill-sergeant sort of way, just seemed like something he'd do. i'd like to think i've done a good job of infiltrating his head (snuck in much the way the Ring did B) )

On interlacing -- exactly -- i'd have to dig Ace of Cups out of the bookshelf to check, but the camera shifts as the plot shifts, it's just that the chapters for the most part encompass the doings of the day.

On ending -- ah, well, with regard to Bor' in Purgatory anyway, as i very likely mentioned earlier in the thread after one too many mugs, i have a few good ideas in mind, and was planning to let the folks who volunteered to "test-read" the tale vote on Boromir's fate (and i'd total up the votes and construct an ending with the input, ranging from "let him keep his new life" to "put him back in the waterfall")Personally, i'd like him to transcend out of Purgatory and move on to the next phase of existence, but i don't know... has he demonstrated to the readers that he's learned something from this life? (if not, well, he may be stuck there for quite some time...)

As far as tying up loose ends goes, that's why i'll take this opportunity to thank Tolkein for doing all that extra work, as the appendices pretty much helped write this tale -- kept me on track chronologically as far as who was where when (very important) and kept me from dropping possible uncomfortable encounters... he just got reconciled w/ the other Hobbits, where it is now. (Now everybody believes Pippin!)

Which was quite a thought experiment -- how WOULD Sam and Frodo have reacted? i'd like to think i did them justice too...

But that's the whole essence of a "what-if" tale!

s.t.

|_|) <-- character-evolution moment-of-truth staring me in the face to be written tonight. i need this drink!

[NazgulNumber10]

wohoo page 9. congrats guys.
|_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|) |_|)
write on, it's what I love in life and Last night I thought up a little quote

IF you give up what you love in life, you may as well give up life entirely

I like that one
[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: NazgulNumber10 ]

[Lila Bramble]

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Congrats everyone, we made it to page 9! When I first came we were back at page 7! I'm proud to be a writer of serious fantasy along with the rest of ya! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Saxony Tarn]

yes, and we've managed to keep this venue fresh and new for this long! Hmm... let's see... what haven't we dissected yet...

if my fellow creatures of the graveyard will pardon "Me and my Ego" for a bit (still coming down off the high induced by LMP's opinion of my little sample of story B) ) let me toss this one out for all who've written (or are writing) fanfic, it's definately Tolkein-related:

Which of his characters are easiest to "borrow", from an authorial perspective? As in, whose heads are easier to get into, whose eyes easiest to see through?

This is different than "who's easiest for the reader to empathize with", given the wide range of tastes evident in board postings (gotta expect some folks to root for the Orcs, Gollum, Sauron, the Witch-King etc.) Who's easiest to write new lines for?

(although i get to take a stab at several major and minor borrowed characters, i figure my vote for Easiest Head to Infiltrate" is fairly obvious!)

s.t.

|_|) <-- the beer flows ever on and on...

[Lila Bramble]

Saxony Tarn, I would have to say Samwise Gamgee.

His character is presented without any flaws for a hidden one, and, unlike the others, he actually DOES have character development.

Sam is an honest one who dosen't try to hide the truth, and isn't afraid to share his opinion. Therefore, its safe to do lots of things with him.

Does anyone agree?

[Laiedheliel]

*raises her hand and waves it in the air* Oh, me! Also, I would have to say Merry and Pippin. They are more of the 'common' Hobbit, and their personalities are easy to see and work with. They are two very straight forward characters. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lila Bramble]

Yes, Merry and Pippin and Sam seem to be pretty easy to control. Some one say the hobbits, but it's not true for Frodo, since he barely says anything and is rather mysterious, and you don't get to see through his eyes anywhere in the book.

I belive you should run only if you are being chased.

-Casey (Elijha Wood), the Faculty

[Lily Tussle]

I'd have to say that any of the not-so-major characters would be easiest because they don't speak as much and you don't get to know them as well you do the main characters. So, if you wanted to, you could take them on a little character-developement ride and make them whatever you want with out having to worry about ruining what Tolkien makes of them.

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: Lily Tussle ]

[Naaramare]

It seems I'm a bit behind . . . ^^

On Endings: I tend to like to have a definite end to my stories. A sort of "and they all settled down and lived happily ever after", as Bilbo said. Even when my stories have a more tragic ending--the main characters die/what have you--I still have an ending, a sense that what the rest of the world did was to get on with their lives.

On Borrowing Characters: For me, it's always been a toss-up between Sam, Merry and Eowyn. Sam, I'm agreeing with the people above: he has the most overt character development in the story. Merry, I've always had a sense of kinship with (Merry being the short form of my real name . . .^~) and Eowyn because her motives and feelings always made sense to me.

[Elenna]

On Endings: I myself like to have a definite ending to the STORY, but not to the CHARACTERS. This is an idea I got from Tolkein. He ended the story of the Ring, but what happened to some of the characters was kind of left open.

can you set your story down and come back to it without changing major turning points? I find I have big trouble with it...

Ummm, no, I must admit I can't do that. I always end up saying things like "Oh, well, what if HE died instead of HIM?" or something like that.

[Lila Bramble]

Yes, Eyown has a strong sense of right and is a determined person, easy to use, though I haven't finsihed reading the series, so I haven't seen a whole lot of her yet (she hasn't killed the Nazgul yet, barrowdowns gave it away for me).

And also I agree that the not-so-major characters are somewhat easy to use, but I thought we were talking about THE main characters. I usually bring back people that weren't very important and give them a big role (read my fanfiction!).

But can someone please tell me...does Beregond or Baranor die? I remember I used a character before I finished the book, and they ended up dieing, and everyone got mad at me for it! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Also, I too like a good ending, but I usually don't write them! I leave a cliffhanger on the book until the next one (always has to be a sequel!), and so far I have 5 back-to-back fanfiction-novels planned out. It starts with 'Master of the Red Pearl', posted here at the downs.

I usually tell what happens to the characers, and if their death is important, I'll skip through time a little bit to make things interesting.

[Saxony Tarn]

Lila -- i really ought not to spoil it for you, but Beregond survives to come back for the sequel (although he gets to sweat for a bit. fair disclosure; where mine is stopped in its progress, that trial is about to take place, so yeah, Beregond is sweating bullets right about now, and so is his family. What kind of King is Aragorn, excuse me, Elessar going to be? We'll know soon enough. Now stop stalling for time, Bor', just put the darned purple shirt on and get your ranking-witness-to-the-crime posterior downstairs. When royalty summons, it's a good idea to assume they mean business, and chances are Aragorn won't think you're being too presumptuous. Then again...)

alas, i see no flicker at all of his father Baranor in my gazing crystal. Perhaps you're thinking of his son Bergil instead (who also survives to come back for the sequel)

BTW -- FIVE segments of an ongoing saga about your mischievous magical Hobbit lass (with options on Merry and the lads)? Woof! Go you! Do you plan to post all of them here?

s.t.

|_|) <-- it comes in pints, and liters, and this one's for you...

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: Saxony Tarn ]