How would Sauron fare?

[Lord of Angmar]

Melkor, or Morgoth Bauglir, was the abominable Dark Lord of the First Age of Middle Earth, and Sauron Gorthaur was only his Captain. However, how do you think Sauron (at his greatest height of power) would have fared against the valiant Elves and Elf-friends of the first age? Do you think that his forces would easily have been overthrown or that a Maiar (albeit a strong one) could actually hold sway over most of Middle Earth and the Hither Lands as Morgoth did towards the end of his reign (before the War of Wrath)?

In my opinion, Sauron would have been toppled, as I am sure Melian the Maia was or almost was a match for him in strength of mind, and the hale Noldor and Sindar that abode in Beleriand would surely have been too much for any force that Sauron has ever wielded.

Just a bit of fun speculation...

[ June 29, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[burrahobbit]

Sauron at his highest was more powerful than Morgoth at his lowest. Morgoth lost most of his power by putting int the making of the world. He had a part in everything, so it was easier for him to control it. Sauron, though, didn't put his power into much of anything until the Ring, so he was still very powerful (even though his numerous deaths weakened him). If Sauron had to start his own reign from scratch he never would have made it, but if he had taken over for Morgoth at the end maybe he would have made it last a little bit longer.

[ June 30, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Sauron was an extremely powerful Maia. He was not the Lord of evil, but he was certainly a major supplementary figure. Melkor was the Vala, and so of course he was the greater, but Sauron was nonetheless a great Power.

He is described in the Valaquenta:

In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the void.

He 'walked behind him'; a 'shadow'. Sauron could not have done what Morgoth did, i.e. building up the force of darkness in the world and weaving his evil into the very fabric of Ea, but once that work was done, Sauron was well able to take over the command and position that Melkor had previously filled. Sauron's spirit was what drove the hordes of Orcs that he commanded, and his mental power was very great. Gandalf remarks that it is greater than Saruman's and Denethor's also. It might be true that Melian may have been a match for Sauron mentally, but her power was not like his. She could take a little land and fence it out, and counter the actions of her enemy, but the force that Sauron commanded -- assisted by the works than Morgoth had wrought before him -- was greater than her.

Perhaps most importantly, Sauron was not simply a solitary power as he may appear to be. As I have said, Morgoth's power that still resided in the world was at Sauron's command; unlike Morgoth, who had to create it all and build it up, Sauron was able to take up and wield the weapon of fear and evil that Morgoth had already left him. Melkor had also not left the scene, even though he had been defeated and ousted from the world, as we know he was still able to exert his influence -- through his servants, eg Sauron, through his spirit and through what he had left behind on earth -- into Arda. Sauron, in this respect, was riding Morgoth's wave.
I think we can conclude that Sauron could not have done what Morgoth did to begin with, but that as a successor, he was equally fearful.

[Finwe]

But I'm sure that all the valiant Elf Lords of the First Age, mingled with the heroes of the Second and Third Ages, could have defeated Sauron, especially the heroes like Fingolfin and Feanor.

[Lord of Angmar]

Let's just speak strictly militarily. At the time of the Siege of Mordor, Sauron had enough strength to withstand a siege of the largest group of warriors ever assembled for 7 years, as well as fighting an open battle with them on the Dagorlad, which he almost won. Suppose his might at its highest point were pitted against the Sons of Feanor and the Noldor (in the First Age only). Do you think he would stand a fighting chance? That is all I'm asking.

[Lord of Angmar]

But then, Morgoth withstood a siege for a hundred years so... I'm going to go ahead and answer my own questions and say that even at his greatest strength (militarily, physically and mentally) he would have been unable to defeat the Noldor, the Sindar and the Three Houses of the Edian in Beleriand.

[Gorthol]

"the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwe and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aule, Mandos, Nienna, and Orome. Though Manwe is their King and holds their allegiance under Eru, in majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Iluvatar has sent into Ea."

And Melko was the most powerful of the Valar.
I don't think we can even begin to compare him with Sauron. The High Elves + Sindar would have been to strong for him.. The people of Gondolin fought hoardes with balrogs, trolls and orcs. And dragons, lots of them. Saurons most powerful servents were the 9 Nazgûl, they wouldn't have proven that powerful at all against the High Elves imho, since their main weapon was terror and fear (and thus directed towards men). An interesting point made in LoTR:

I also will come, said Legolas, for I do not fear the Dead.

The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror.

[Finwe]

I think that Sauron at his greatest strength wouldn't have been able to defeat the Sons of Feanor and the Noldor, had they been able to unite under one banner. I think that was the reason that the Siege of Angband failed. Had all the Elves in Beleriand united under one banner, then they might have been able to defeat Morgoth.

[Lord of Angmar]

I doubt that even had they all been united under one banner they would have been able to defeat Morgoth, as Tolkien stated that any attempt to defeat Morgoth without the aid of the Valar would be fruitless.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

It is actually probably true that if they had all united against Morgoth in Beleriand, then he would have been vanquished at the Nirnaeth. The problem was that they didn't, and more importantly, that some of the Easterlings among them were treacherous.

Even then [without perfect unity] they would have prevailed... were it not for the treachery of Men.

The attempt to defeat Morgoth was doomed to fail, in part, because of disunion among his enemies. Perhaps the greater host that the Elves would have been able to muster if they had united would have prevailed against the Easterlings; and if all the Easterlings had fought for the West then Morgoth would have been overthrown by the Noldor.

Well, purely militarily, I think you're probably right -- the forces Sauron wielded were not as great as those of Morgoth in the First Age. My above post however is still valid in what it says, if anyoen would care to read it for a study into the relationship between Sauron and Melkor as partners [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

[Lord of Angmar]

Even then [without perfect unity] they would have prevailed... were it not for the treachery of Men.

Gwaihir, that quote means that they would have defeated Morgoth at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, which is only a battle not the entire war. But they could almost certainly not have defeated Morgoth without the aid from the Valar, as was stated several times in the Sil and other works... I will try to find the quote in the beginning of the Sil, as I believe Mandos or Manwe said it.

[Finwe]

Actually, militarily, the forces of the Elves and the Edain would have defeated Morgoth, and broken into Angband itself. As it is, they were practically upon the very threshold of Thangorodrim themselves. But when Uldor the Accursed and his brothers attacked the Elves from the side, they couldn't hold them off, because the Easterlings attacked from the side, bringing in more reinforcements for themselves. If it hadn't been for that, then the Elves would have surely won.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Yes, if the Nirnaeth had been won then Morgoth would have been defeated. It was the most decisive battle of the war. Finwe is quite right; Morgoth could have been defeated were it not for the disunity of his foes and the treachery of the rogue Easterlings.
Remember, Morgoth was several times stronger when the host of Eonwe attacked him than he was in the Nirnaeth. He had swelled his forces, bred dragons and made his control of Beleriand almost universal by the time of the Great Battle. Eonwe had a greater foe to deal with than the Elves did in the Nirnaeth.

[Lord Melkor]

I have to agree with Gwaihir. Angband was completely deserted at the end of the Nirnaeth, so if the Noldor and the Edain had won it would've meant that Morgoth would not have had any troops to defend Angband with, meaning that he would've been defeated. I wonder what he would've done in such a scenario? He probably would've fled and hid somewhere else so he could rebuild. Probably the ruins of Utumno or something.

[ July 02, 2003: Message edited by: Lord Melkor ]

[Numenorean]

Let's just speak strictly militarily. At the time of the Siege of Mordor, Sauron had enough strength to withstand a siege of the largest group of warriors ever assembled for 7 years

Interesting thread Lord of Angmar, but was the force that Sauron had assembled by the end of the Second Age smaller or greater than his apex at the end of the Third?
I mean, I always understood that despite victory at Pelanor, Aragorn and the Captains of the West were heading for certain military defeat at the Black Gate, Saurons forces were quite simply, Legion. It took the destruction of the Ring and the total undoing of his power to halt his seemingly inevitable victory (due to vast numbers+general diversity of powerful evil units etc..).
So was Sauron - just prior to his Ring being flipped - more or less powerful than he was at the time of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men?

[Lord Melkor]

Hmmm, I think he was less powerful, since it was stated that Sauron at the end of the Second Age was more powerful than Morgoth at the end of the First. If Sauron was more powerful in the Third Age it would've been stated like this: Sauron at the end of the Third Age was more powerful than Morgoth at the end of the First.

Besides, the forces opposing Sauron at the end of the Second Age were far more powerful than the forces opposing him at the end of the Third. The remnants of Numenor (still powerful by their own right) and the Elven kingdoms of Eriador, unified in the Last Alliance, were far more powerful than the power of a declining Gondor and Rohan at the end of the Third Age.

[Meoshi]

Of course, a Sauron beginning the Fourth Age with his enemies vanquished and his old Ring back on his finger would probably eventually become as powerful as he had ever been in the past. Perhaps more so, with nobody left to oppose him.

[ July 02, 2003: Message edited by: Meoshi ]