Why does Gandalf... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

dubleu · 12-13-2003, 09:55 PM

Why does gandalf go to see sauroman even after he is sure that it is the one ring? He would have been more useful staying with Frodo/Sam [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Knight of Gondor · 12-13-2003, 10:56 PM

Because he did not realize yet that Saruman was so deep a traitor. He wanted to "seek help from the head of his order", and he thought Saruman's wisdom could help them figure out what to do.

dubleu · 12-14-2003, 12:14 AM

I realize this however I still belive he didnt need no help, really think of it frodo made it anyway and had gandalf been their to help it would have been a much swifter victory

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:15 AM December 14, 2003: Message edited by: dubleu ]

dubleu · 12-14-2003, 12:16 AM

also gandalf knew what they must do. He knew that it must be destroid and he knew how that must be done

Arothir · 12-14-2003, 10:08 AM

Gandalf also went to see Saruman because Radagast brought word that the Nine were riding.

Legolas · 12-14-2003, 12:18 PM

Gandalf went to Saruman for help - think of the great help Saruman would've provided. Gandalf did not have enough reason to expect otherwise.

Finwe · 12-14-2003, 12:31 PM

Saruman's treachery was amazingly kept a secret from the entire White Counci. Even so, I'm sure that Galadriel and some of the other very astute Councillors had their private suspicions of Saruman. He had delayed the attack against Dol Guldur and kept claiming that the One Ring had been lost forever, while secretly searching for it himself. He managed to hide his rebellion, until Gandalf came to Isengard, and told Saruman that the Ring was in the hands of a Hobbit. That realization drove Saruman to commit the mistake of letting Gandalf know that he had rebelled.

Phervasaion · 12-14-2003, 01:58 PM

I thought Gandalf simply didnt know what to do with the ring and thought that Saruman would be able to help him decide what should be done with it. But when he got to isenguard Saruman said the only option was to join Sauron.

Eol Telemnar · 12-14-2003, 01:59 PM

yea, that's too bad. If Saruman did not betray good for evil, the war would have gone at least a little smoother.

Knight of Gondor · 12-14-2003, 02:13 PM

It is not interesting that the one person who objected to attacking the major bad guy in Middle-Earth, even though this major bad guy had not yet carried out any attacks on innocents of Middle-Earth, was the guy who had the darkest and most evil designs. 'Nuff said about that.

Actually, as I recall, Saruman SENT for Gandalf, did he not? In the books? Either way, it made sense for Gandalf to try and get back to Saruman, because, while it did wind up working out in the end, Gandalf would want to get back to the highest power he could to seek counsel and help on the mission to destroy the Ring.

Lord of Angmar · 12-14-2003, 02:19 PM

You are correct, Knight of Gondor. Saruman had Radagast deliver the message to Gandalf that Gandalf should "seek [Saruman's] aid at once." That is the simple explanation for why Gandalf went.

Quote:

until Gandalf came to Isengard, and told Saruman that the Ring was in the hands of a Hobbit.(Finwe)

In the books, Gandalf never tells Saruman that the Ring is in the hands of a hobbit.

Eol Telemnar · 12-14-2003, 03:42 PM

that's true. answering the question:
yea, Gandalf went because he was summoned there by Saruman.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-15-2003, 03:28 PM

Really? How much more useful would he have been with Frodo and Sam?
They were actually with him when they got to Rivendell, and nothing irriverable happened on the trip there, only some minor setbacks. So, how much help would gandalf have actually been on the road to rivendell?

Olorin_TLA · 12-17-2003, 07:27 AM

No Old Man Willow or Barrow Wights near-deaths.

No stabbing at Amon-Sul.

Nuff said. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

bilbo_baggins · 12-19-2003, 12:35 PM

If Mithrandir/olorin/gandalf had been with Frodo/Sam throughout the entire Journey to Rauros, where he would cut off, (i,e. not being "delayed" by Saruman, and not falling in Moria) Gandalf would have made things too easy for frodo/sam and would not have been a letdown for the entire fellowship to make them trust each other more.

pandora · 12-19-2003, 01:26 PM

If Saruman could be trusted then the journey could have been down the west side of the Misty Mountains (no Moria and obviously no bird-spies of Saruman) and into Rohan, then Gondor and over into Mordor with little risk before crossing the Anduin. Isengard was originally specifically built to block the Gap of Rohan to Sauron's forces and help keep him at bay to the East.

Saruman, Gandalf and Aragorn would have been quite formidable as a team using the Isengard palantier to distract Sauron and watch his activities.

Generally speaking, having Saruman on-side would have made the whole enterprise an order of magnitude easier but the specific ability to avoid Moria was probably the main reason Gandalf wanted to make sure Saruman was going to finally act against Sauron. So off he went to answer the summons...

Finwe · 12-19-2003, 01:53 PM

If Saruman had been on the side of the Free Peoples, then the element of danger for the Rohirrim would have been far smaller, and I don't think they would have truly realized the magnitude of the danger posed to Gondor. Since they themselves had been under a great deal of danger, they knew that they would have to get to Gondor as quickly as possible.

Olorin_TLA · 12-21-2003, 10:53 AM

Gandalf goes because Saruman could help them - he says it himself, that when he goes to see Saruman one of the thoughts in his mind was that Sarumna may have discovered a weapon to use against the Enemy or the Nine.

Trippo The Hippo · 12-29-2003, 12:08 AM

I cant say Gandalf would have helped that much. How much good did he do in the hobbit? Bad stuff stil happened. Certainly Gandalf would have changed things. It could have been far worse. It all worked out in the end so it is not important to go back and say what if Sam had eaten a ham sandwhich on thursday. Thats the way Tolkien wrote it and its great.

Tar-Alcarin · 12-30-2003, 11:32 AM

If saruman hadnt have defected, Isen never would have been destroyed ,pippen never would have seen in the palanite and Gondor
would have been destroyed.
In the words of Morpheus "What happened happened and couldn't have happened any other way"

Lord of Angmar · 12-30-2003, 11:43 AM

Quote:

I cant say Gandalf would have helped that much. How much good did he do in the hobbit? Bad stuff stil happened.

Oh, he would have helped. A being with the power to fight all the Ringwraiths at once would probably have prevented the Nazgul from stabbing Frodo. Frodo's being stabbed by the Witch King, in my opinion, not only hindered their flight to Rivendell but also made Frodo more susceptible to the Ring's power throughout the course of his entire quest.

Olorin_TLA · 12-30-2003, 11:44 AM

But on the other hand Rohan wouldn't have been ravaged, would have been able to help Minas Tirith in the war, Théoden would have been fine and dandy and Sarumna would have helped fight Sauron...and the Fellwoship would have had a really safe journey through the empty Westlands. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Olorin · 12-31-2003, 05:07 PM

We must remember that Saruman was the head of the Istari and the White Council. If Saruman did not betray Gandalf, there probably would have been a meeting of the White Council where the fate of the ring could be discussed by the wisest and most influential people in Middle Earth. Think how much it would have helped if all the good guys of the land were coordinated to help the quest succeed. There would always have been a wizard looking after the fellowship, the powerful people of ME would have been able to better protect the Fellowship, etc. In addition, a better and safer route could have been plotted if the White Council met. It was only logical for Gandalf to seek help. Why would he take the burden upon himself when there were so many other powerful people that could help? Also, it was his responsibility to alert the influential people of ME about the Ring and the quest. It would have been stupid of his not to.

12-13-2003, 09:55 PM	#1
dubleu Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the land we stole from the indians Posts: 13	Why does Gandalf... Why does gandalf go to see sauroman even after he is sure that it is the one ring? He would have been more useful staying with Frodo/Sam [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ live long die young and tell me how you did both.

12-13-2003, 10:56 PM	#2
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	Because he did not realize yet that Saruman was so deep a traitor. He wanted to "seek help from the head of his order", and he thought Saruman's wisdom could help them figure out what to do. __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

12-14-2003, 12:14 AM	#3
dubleu Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the land we stole from the indians Posts: 13	I realize this however I still belive he didnt need no help, really think of it frodo made it anyway and had gandalf been their to help it would have been a much swifter victory <font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:15 AM December 14, 2003: Message edited by: dubleu ] __________________ live long die young and tell me how you did both.

12-14-2003, 12:16 AM	#4
dubleu Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the land we stole from the indians Posts: 13	also gandalf knew what they must do. He knew that it must be destroid and he knew how that must be done __________________ live long die young and tell me how you did both.

12-14-2003, 10:08 AM	#5
Arothir Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: the Realm of Nargothrond beyond Narog Posts: 163	Gandalf also went to see Saruman because Radagast brought word that the Nine were riding. __________________ Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine."

12-14-2003, 12:18 PM	#6
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	Gandalf went to Saruman for help - think of the great help Saruman would've provided. Gandalf did not have enough reason to expect otherwise. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-14-2003, 12:31 PM	#7
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Saruman's treachery was amazingly kept a secret from the entire White Counci. Even so, I'm sure that Galadriel and some of the other very astute Councillors had their private suspicions of Saruman. He had delayed the attack against Dol Guldur and kept claiming that the One Ring had been lost forever, while secretly searching for it himself. He managed to hide his rebellion, until Gandalf came to Isengard, and told Saruman that the Ring was in the hands of a Hobbit. That realization drove Saruman to commit the mistake of letting Gandalf know that he had rebelled. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-14-2003, 01:58 PM	#8
Phervasaion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The wilderness of Middle-Earth Posts: 306	I thought Gandalf simply didnt know what to do with the ring and thought that Saruman would be able to help him decide what should be done with it. But when he got to isenguard Saruman said the only option was to join Sauron. __________________ Phervasaion

12-14-2003, 01:59 PM	#9
Eol Telemnar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be? Posts: 89	yea, that's too bad. If Saruman did not betray good for evil, the war would have gone at least a little smoother. __________________ Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.

12-14-2003, 02:13 PM	#10
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	It is not interesting that the one person who objected to attacking the major bad guy in Middle-Earth, even though this major bad guy had not yet carried out any attacks on innocents of Middle-Earth, was the guy who had the darkest and most evil designs. 'Nuff said about that. Actually, as I recall, Saruman SENT for Gandalf, did he not? In the books? Either way, it made sense for Gandalf to try and get back to Saruman, because, while it did wind up working out in the end, Gandalf would want to get back to the highest power he could to seek counsel and help on the mission to destroy the Ring. __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

12-14-2003, 03:42 PM	#12
Eol Telemnar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be? Posts: 89	that's true. answering the question: yea, Gandalf went because he was summoned there by Saruman. __________________ Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.

12-15-2003, 03:28 PM	#13
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	Really? How much more useful would he have been with Frodo and Sam? They were actually with him when they got to Rivendell, and nothing irriverable happened on the trip there, only some minor setbacks. So, how much help would gandalf have actually been on the road to rivendell? __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-17-2003, 07:27 AM	#14
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	No Old Man Willow or Barrow Wights near-deaths. No stabbing at Amon-Sul. Nuff said. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

12-19-2003, 12:35 PM	#15
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	If Mithrandir/olorin/gandalf had been with Frodo/Sam throughout the entire Journey to Rauros, where he would cut off, (i,e. not being "delayed" by Saruman, and not falling in Moria) Gandalf would have made things too easy for frodo/sam and would not have been a letdown for the entire fellowship to make them trust each other more. __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."

12-19-2003, 01:26 PM	#16
pandora Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 60	If Saruman could be trusted then the journey could have been down the west side of the Misty Mountains (no Moria and obviously no bird-spies of Saruman) and into Rohan, then Gondor and over into Mordor with little risk before crossing the Anduin. Isengard was originally specifically built to block the Gap of Rohan to Sauron's forces and help keep him at bay to the East. Saruman, Gandalf and Aragorn would have been quite formidable as a team using the Isengard palantier to distract Sauron and watch his activities. Generally speaking, having Saruman on-side would have made the whole enterprise an order of magnitude easier but the specific ability to avoid Moria was probably the main reason Gandalf wanted to make sure Saruman was going to finally act against Sauron. So off he went to answer the summons...

12-19-2003, 01:53 PM	#17
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	If Saruman had been on the side of the Free Peoples, then the element of danger for the Rohirrim would have been far smaller, and I don't think they would have truly realized the magnitude of the danger posed to Gondor. Since they themselves had been under a great deal of danger, they knew that they would have to get to Gondor as quickly as possible. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-21-2003, 10:53 AM	#18
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Gandalf goes because Saruman could help them - he says it himself, that when he goes to see Saruman one of the thoughts in his mind was that Sarumna may have discovered a weapon to use against the Enemy or the Nine. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

12-29-2003, 12:08 AM	#19
Trippo The Hippo Wight Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: somewhere with hippos that say jolly o and wear spectacles Posts: 199	I cant say Gandalf would have helped that much. How much good did he do in the hobbit? Bad stuff stil happened. Certainly Gandalf would have changed things. It could have been far worse. It all worked out in the end so it is not important to go back and say what if Sam had eaten a ham sandwhich on thursday. Thats the way Tolkien wrote it and its great. __________________ Shouldn't he be the disco steward?

12-30-2003, 11:32 AM	#20
Tar-Alcarin Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Numenore Posts: 108	If saruman hadnt have defected, Isen never would have been destroyed ,pippen never would have seen in the palanite and Gondor would have been destroyed. In the words of Morpheus "What happened happened and couldn't have happened any other way" __________________ Miniature Rohirrim armor: $500. Amount of fuel it took pippin to light the beacons: $20. Seeing your two favourite hobbits get wasted and drunk: priceless

12-30-2003, 11:44 AM	#22
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	But on the other hand Rohan wouldn't have been ravaged, would have been able to help Minas Tirith in the war, Théoden would have been fine and dandy and Sarumna would have helped fight Sauron...and the Fellwoship would have had a really safe journey through the empty Westlands. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

12-31-2003, 05:07 PM	#23
Olorin Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Where the sun sails and the moon walks. Posts: 155	We must remember that Saruman was the head of the Istari and the White Council. If Saruman did not betray Gandalf, there probably would have been a meeting of the White Council where the fate of the ring could be discussed by the wisest and most influential people in Middle Earth. Think how much it would have helped if all the good guys of the land were coordinated to help the quest succeed. There would always have been a wizard looking after the fellowship, the powerful people of ME would have been able to better protect the Fellowship, etc. In addition, a better and safer route could have been plotted if the White Council met. It was only logical for Gandalf to seek help. Why would he take the burden upon himself when there were so many other powerful people that could help? Also, it was his responsibility to alert the influential people of ME about the Ring and the quest. It would have been stupid of his not to. __________________ Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then don't be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.