Why did he throw that?

[Arvedui24]

Hello there, just wondering why on earth did Grima throw a palantir of all things out of the Orthanc window? We all must admit that being a man of some learning at least and i presume at least familiarity with such an item why on earth would he throw it out of a window? There seems to be no sense to it. In addition for convienience such a heavy and obviously valuable item wouldnt seem my ideal choice as a projectile weapon.

Any thoughts at all, i hope this has not been discussed, my search did not uncover anything but i am only human. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

P.S Just an afterthought, would Grima have been ensared like Pippin by the palantir or more accuratley by Sauron's will?

Thanks

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Actually I think that he wasn't quite sure what palantir was. All the other palantiri were lost and the rest of them were very secret. Grima was very angry to Gandalf but also to his master who didn't have power anymore over Gandalf. He just wanted to throw somebody with something and maybe palantir was there at hand...

[Liriodendron]

I always thought that was a bit incredible myself. But then, I can remember days where I seemed bound and determined to do the stupidist thing possible. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Arwen1858]

He probably didn't know what it was. He was just really mad, and that was the only thing availible, so he picked it up and chucked it at Gandalf. I bet after Saruman got after him he really wished he hadn't thrown it! But I think it was just that he didn't have a clue as to what it was.
Arwen

[Mungo of Bracegirdle]

Oh Grima, he is so intresting. First of all, you have to understand that Grima was a double crossing double crosser. He obviously betrayed Theoden and Rohan, but he also betrayed Saruman on several occasions. In fact, on one of these such occasions, Grima gave information to the Nazgul that lead them strait to the Shire. The Nazgul, before then, had no idea where the land of the "Halflings" was and where they could find "Baggins." But I'm getting off topic. Grima's treachery made him a very sad, angry, and just downright pitiful person. He was full of self pity and perhaps even a little remorse. When he threw the palantir out of the window, he wasn't exactly sure who he was aiming for, Gandalf or Saruman. He blaimed both of the wizards for his misery; Saruman for pursuading him to go turncoat on Theoden and Gandalf for getting him thrown out of Rohan and stuck in Orthanc with Saruman, who by this time he absolutly hated. This also might answer, "Why the palantir?" Well, he most likely knew that Saruman treasured it. He might even have known, to a certain extent, what it was used for. So, in order to "get back" at Saruman, he decides to throw it out the window at him (or Gandalf, it didn't really matter to him who he hit). I don't know about you, but I think it's sad.

Cheers

P.S. In connection with your afterthought, this would be hard to tell. The palantir work in a very strange way. They are kind of like small globes in that they have an axis that runs through them. In order for them to work properly, this axis must be lined up perfectly and the stone must face in a certain direction. Grima, just picking up the palantir probobly wasn't holding it in this very specific direction. And when Pippen looked in it, it just happened by "chance" (there isn't much of that in ME) to be lined up properly. So I doubt that Grima ever had any correspondace with Sauron, personally that is.

Cheers

[ November 06, 2003: Message edited by: Mungo of Bracegirdle ]

[Kates Frodo Temp]

Hmmm...I'm sure that was exactly what Saruman thought, Arvedui. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I agree with those who say Grima didn't really know what the palantir was. However, I think he threw it for no better reason than that it added humor to the book. My sister and I think that is perhaps one of the funniest parts.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I agree with those that say that Grima didn't know what the palantir was. He probably thought it was just a stone, and that is why he throw it at Gandalf and company.

[Olorin_TLA]

Cool points, Mungo! Thoguh I think he deserved his fate. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Let's see...Grima would have to be dum to not know the palantír was important. Even if he knew nothing of it, it would be set in an important place, like a precious ornament - too good to thorugh. So as Mungo said, could very well be torn between 2 hates.

I doubt, btw, that Sarumna would even tell Grima what a palantír was. And if he met Sauron...well he couldn't have, because then the Nazgul wouldn't have had to "force" directions and information out of him, and he would have let Sauron know Saruman was a traitor, OR he'd be a gibbering wreck.

[Finwe]

Actually, I don't think that he would have had to be "dumb" to not know what the palantir is. Only the Wise knew of the palantiri's very existence, and even fewer of them knew that some had survived.

As many people have said, Grima probably threw the palantir out of a desire for blind revenge. In his heart of hearts, he knew what he was doing was wrong, and that listening to Saruman wasn't going to get him anywhere good. In fact, I rather think his love for Eowyn (no matter how twisted it was) helped to keep his deep-seated love of Rohan alive. When he saw Saruman being overthrown, perhaps he thought that he could somehow "contribute" to Gandalf's cause, and give him the palantir. I'm sure that he knew what it was, and what it did, after watching Saruman. I know it seems like that action is too good for Grima, but I truly pity him, and I truly believe that there is still some good left in him.

[Kalimac]

I'm in the camp that thinks he didn't know what it was. As Finwe points out, very few people knew what palantiri were; not knowing about it didn't mean that Grima was stupid. And while it was important to Saruman, I doubt that he let *anyone* know that he had it, let alone what it did (remember, in the book of FOTR, he doesn't even let Gandalf know - a fellow Istari who, Saruman thinks, is completely at his mercy at that moment). Spreading that kind of information to anyone would be insane; it lets them know how to damage you. And Wormtongue, while an important spy in Rohan, is not exactly Saruman's equal, nor does Saruman consider him so. I doubt whether Wormtongue had ever been permitted into the same room as the palantir until the siege of Orthanc turned everything upside down.

That's probably the only reason he was able to see it - Saruman was distracted and fearful, and when Wormtongue swam up to the gates probably wasn't as cautious as he had been earlier. It was probably a matter of "Just sit here while I think of something to do" and the reason that the palantir was still in a remotely accessible place was that Saruman had been trying to use it and hadn't had time to put it away before more pressing matters came up.

So in short, Wormtongue probably just saw this nice, solid round rock, thought that it would make a good missile, and threw it. I can't believe that he knew how he was damaging Saruman by it (as nice as it is to think of Wormtongue winning one for Eowyn [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) simply because while in Orthanc he was entirely at Saruman's mercy and would have been taking a huge chance by throwing out his greatest treasure that way. He could easily have been killed, and physical courage is definitely not among Wormtongue's virtues. Even when he gets up the strength to kill, it's always from behind.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Maybe he was just stupid.I think he panicked (sp?) and didn`t know what to do.

[Arvedui24]

Thanks for the input people, i still believe however that it was one of the most incredible and convienient moments of the books. In a Wizard's study picking up a crystal ball(of sorts) and throwing it, mhmmm. But still i appreciate that he probably didnt know what it was as only those with authority to use the Palantir generally knew their power, well this was certainly true in Gondor and Arnor until their demise.

[StarJewel]

I don't think he knew what the palantir was. He was mad, saw a big rock like object laying around, and threw it. At least for me, it's a basic reaction...I get angry, I see a large, rocklike object that could do some damage, and I throw said object at someone. That's how my mind works, anyway.

[Frodo2968thewhite]

Not to mention, he is, after all, Grima! But he must have been strong, after all, the Palantir is heavy, solid rock, and a foot in diameter!

[Finwe]

Many great authors throw in a little element of chance to show their readers that no matter what, you can't be prepared for everything and cover all your bases. I'm sure that Gandalf, Aragorn & Co. would have gotten one up on Saruman anyway, but the fact that Grima lobbed what he thought was a random stone object at them, which in fact was a palantir, added that element of chance to the tale.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I don't think Grima's knowledge of the palantir would have mattered. He was seething in rage, at the two bickering wizards (Mungo of Bracegirdle pointed that out) and wanted to get rid of one of them. The palantir being near, he threw it. Now even up to now couples who fight and hate each other throw things at one another(husband throws TV, later asks "Now how do I watch NBA?")

Now, I have a question of my own: Surely Saruman treasures the palantir. And he hadn't used it for a long time. Why put Grima in the same room as the palantir?

Later days! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
->banakil on mumakil

[Finwe]

I don't think Saruman quite planned for Gandalf & Co. to come marching in on the heels of Ents. He was probably trying to communicate with Sauron, and telling the Big S. that everything was all right, and that no, there weren't any big, humanoid trees tearing his citadel apart. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

When Saruman "ran" out onto the balcony, he probably was so inwardly worked up that he forgot about Grima. Minions like him are usually forgotten about. Grima was probably hiding in the same room, and realized that Saruman was insulting him/Rohan. Thus, he seized the first thing that he saw, the palantir, and lobbed it out the window.

I think Grima knew exactly what it was. Well, not exactly. But he knew it was a great matter of impotance. I believe Gandalf said something about how Grima could not decide who he was more mad at, Saruman or Gandalf. He threw the stone at the window narrowly missing Gandalf's head, yet it was so precious to Saruman. He wanted to hit Gandalf and hurt Saruman. So fortunately for him, he found a way to hurt them both. Unfortunately, he missed Gandalf's head.

[Morgoth the Great]

i'm sorry, but i have to say that he had no clue what it was. i doubt that Saruman would of told him, and he would not of been so foolish enough to leave is unguarded without a good reason. Grima probably saw that Saruman was not doing well in his argument, and he most likely also wanted to pay back the Rohirrim for banishing him. The stone, being a heavy round object with potential to do great damage was probably a good thing to throw down, as if it had struck anyone, it could of done serious damage. Grima probably didn't see it as a Palantir, more as the best thing to throw.

[Mahal]

I also dont believe that he knew what it was. It was a good trowing thing, as someone has said only the wise knew about the palantirs, normal people didn't even know they existed anymore... they forgot about it.

[Finwe]

But then again, Grima probably slunk around the place while Saruman was off doing his corrupted wizard stuff, and came upon the wizard communicating with Sauron via the palantir. Saruman probably didn't notice, but Grima probably saw the "magic ball" and stored away the fact that it was important. He didn't know what exactly it WAS, he just knew that it was important.

[Arvedui24]

I dont think the fact that no one apart from the wise is really that significant, i believe Grima would have had some knowledge of Orthanc and the precious artifacts hidden there, i dont believe he knew what is was but he would have definetly known that it was an object of significant value. As i said previously, a large obviously mysterious globe sitting in a wizard's study is not the first thing that i would have thrown.

But as some have said, Grima as the scoundrel that he was might have recognised the significance and was trying to kill two birds with one stone(oh thats a bad pun): in his rage he wanted to injure Gandalf and Co. and also perhaps do some damage to Saruman by removing his only source of information gathering now that his army is routed and Isengard is in ruins.

[Liriodendron]

Grima was a slinking spy, with binocular eyes and a mind that was always jumping to conclusions. (IMO) Haven't you known people like that...sticking their nose in everything, taking note of anything, remembering every little detail for the rest of their lives. Grima's whole life was spying and "knowing" what he wasn't supposed to know, so I can't believe that the "all important" palantir slipped by his radar. Didn't someone say the palantir was as big as a basketball?? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] No way! I imagine him throwing it in a fit of supreme anger and frustration. It was still almost unbelievable though! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

I looked up in the book and I do think that Wormtoungue knew at the very least it was important. It was not Gandalf but Aragorn that said and I quote "The aim was poor, maybe, because he could not make up his mind which he hated more you or Saruman." (talking to Gandalf, in TTT, Chapter 10: Voice of Saruman, pg. 189.

[Finwe]

True, but having to make up his mine whether he hated Saruman or Gandalf more doesn't interfere with knowing about the palantir's true identity. It makes sense for him to know what it was, or have some idea of what it was, because he knew it was precious to Saruman and thus, it would probably be precious to Gandalf, and thus, lobbed it out the window in an effort to remove it from Saruman, and try to destroy it, so Gandalf wouldn't get it. (Little did he know that basketball-sized glass globes don't shatter on impact.)

[Lindril Arvilya]

He didn't have to have any concrete evidence that it was important to Saruman. Saruman wouldn't keep around stuff that he didn't need, especially in his workroom. A wizard keeps what he needs with him, and stores everything else somewhere else.

The fact that it belonged to Saruman would show Grima that Saruman needed it.

Lindril (I have no opinion) Arvilya

I doubt that he DID not know. I think firstly, he just reached for the first thing he saw. Second, he was torn and might have been punishing sauroman without knowing it. I am new to the forums, so HI!

[One Axe to Rule them All]

Hi filbert! Welcome to the downs!

Honestly, I think that Grima was compelled
to follow Saruman because, well, Saruman was all he had left.

So I think that Grima's throwing of the Palantir was his way of lashing out a Saruman,
he could kill two birds with one stone, he would hurt Saruman's plans, and he could hopefully kill one of the fellowship while he's at it!

Grima's act of rebellion against Saruman was a prelude to his killing saurman later on,
it was a demonstration of his hatred yet ironic binding to Saruman.

Sure he understood that the Palantir was important, maybe he didn't understand exactly what it was or what it did, but he knew that it was valuable to saruman.

[Gorwingel]

In addition for convienience such a heavy and obviously valuable item wouldnt seem my ideal choice as a projectile weapon.

I think it would make a fine projectile weapon. I have always imagined it as something looking like a bowling ball, and bowling balls can do great damage. And even though it was valuable, wasn't it also greatly indistructible, kind of like a diamond. Grima would have had to do much more to inflict any kind of damage to it.

Additionally I also think that Grima would have known something about it. If anything I think that he would have known at least that Saurman was getting information from it, and that it was also extremely important to him.

[Belin]

It did always seem a bit odd to me as well. But imagining that Wormtongue understood what the palantir was would make Saruman less prudent than Denethor, who was using his for ages before anyone caught on. I have trouble believing that Wormtongue spent any considerable amount of time in Saruman's study (the wizard doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would appreciate others poking about amongst his tools and treasures), so he may not have even seen it before.

Besides, we don't know what else Saruman had in there. It wasn't designed to provide his minions with artillery, after all.. perhaps the palantir was simply the most likely large, heavy object to catch Grima's eye, and the chances that, in his state of rage, he stopped to think about what it was and how Saruman used it are not that great. But he did understand a big rock dropped on your head from a tower would probably kill anyone.

Eowyn? Eh... I don't really see any evidence that his desire for her (I wouldn't call it "love") was in any way bound up with wishes for her well being. He was interested in her body and her status, but since he'd figured out that at this point he didn't have much chance for either, he probably hated her as much as he did Theoden.

[Horse-Maiden of the Shire]

I agree with the idea of Grima slinking around Orthanc and coming upon Saruman secretly using the Stone. More than once, probably. Also, I think that in the heat of the moment, Grima probably DID want to hurt both wizards, and he chanced to be in the same room as the Palantir, so he thought "Oh, Saruman loves this stone eh?" (Or something to that effect.) So he chucked it.

[kittiegirl]

Probably.
But it's not like it's that important to the story though.
it's not one of the main sequences, but it is an interesting question and thought.

[Mahal]

But also... Grima was most of his time away in Rohan. If Saruman heard from his men that Grima was coming he might have hidden it away.

[Morgoth the Great]

to the last post about hiding the palantir away, that has 2 holes in it:
a. It's completely impractical, as Saruman would need to use it.
b. If it was hidden away so well that Grima couldnt find it before, he wouldnt exactly be able to just go get it at the speech...

[Mahal]

well about that:
a He didnt use it all the time
B maybe he was busy Isengard afterall was being destroyed.

[Morgoth the Great]

a. He would of used it enough that it would of definately of been stupid to hide it in a place that Grima had no idea that it was

b. He was busy, yeah, but Grima was busy as well. His home was Isengard as well

[Theron Bugtussle]

As Kalimac said, Saruman kept the palantir secret. Even from Gandalf, when he visited seeking information on the ring and was imprisoned on the pinnacle of Orthanc.

When the palantir was thrown, that was the first that Gandalf knew that Saruman had one. He didn't seem to think that any other even survived. Until he was mulling it over with Pippin on the ride to Minas Tirith. Then he realized that Sauron must have had one as well. Gandalf was able to tie up many loose ends with that deduction.

(Certainly PJ screwed that up in the movies by having Saruman show Gandalf the palantir before the Wizards' Duel.)

So I think this is how it happened to be the item that Grima threw:

Gandalf called to the tower from the entrance stairs. Grima came and was told to fetch his master. Saruman was interrupted by Grima in his "study" probably using the palantir. Though, I doubt he let Grima see the stone at that time.

Saruman was surprised/shocked to hear of any visitors, let alone these particular ones (Gandalf & co.), so in his distress [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] and rush he left his study unlocked. Saruman went to the window balcony, on a lower floor than where the palantir was.

That distress and lack of attention allowed Grima to enter the 'study' (or wherever the palantir was), overhear the whole conversation, get mad [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] , find the palantir, and throw it. He would have known nothing of its usefulness, but would have discerned that it was a thing of some importance to his master--because of its prominence in the location where he found it. And have seen it as a useful missile. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I fail to see the claim of its being basketball or bowling ball size...where is that from? Gandalf took it from Pippin and hid it in the folds of his cloak. Can you imagine "hiding" a stone of that size in your cloak? You would need a sling of some kind. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

Saruman greatly underestimated Grima. I don't think that he knew how much Grima knew. For example, at the end of the Scouring of the Shire, Saruman mercilessly "teases" Grima about having killed, and perhaps even eaten, Lotho. Grima gets so angry that he kills Saruman. A very underestimated character indeed! I wouldn't put it past Grima at all to slink around Isengard and find out as much information about his master as he could, to store away in that slimy little mind of his. He must have found out about Saruman's "prized possession" and where it was kept, or the general area in which it was kept.

(I'm using the movie-Isengard for this next part, because the book doesn't describe the layout of Isengard much.) In the movie, a door connects Saruman's "study" to a balcony from where he addresses his Uruk-hai army. I'm assuming that will be the same balcony that Gandalf will break his staff from. In that case, Grima could have been waiting behind in the study, and as he became more and more incensed, could have seen the palantir, and lobbed it out of the balcony.

[Arvedui24]

Someone earlier stated that the throwing of the palantir was not a significant action in the book but i would disagree completely. The use of the palantir by Pippin forces Gandalf to speed on to Minas Tiith bolstering their support and without him there at the battle things could have been a lot worse: his status alone brought comfort to the men of Gondor i believe. In addition, Aragorn's use of the palantir and revealing himself to Sauron forces Sauron's hand prematurely and has serious consequences for the entire fate of middle-earth. The throwing of the palantir therefore i believe is one of the most important happenings in the books. Any thoughts on this supplementary question?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

The Palantir...

...themselves could be and usually were kept in the dark...

(UT, Part IV, The Palantir)

...were kept secret. During the time of Gondorian control over Isengard, access to them was limited...

Each Stone has its own warden...Other persons were appointed to visit the Stones, and Ministers of the Crown concerned with "intelligence" made regular and special inspections of them...

(UT, Part IV, The Palantir)

...which gives the impression they were locked in some secret chamber. Hence, Grima could not really find out that it existed, or at best, knows it but could not know what it was for. If he does, he knows it was very important.

Probably, at the coming of Gandalf and Co., he was surveying the Stone...no, wait...

[Sauron:] Why have you neglected to report for so long?

(LotR, Book III, Chapter 11)

...no, he could not be using the Stone. He was there for some other reason, probably a plan to escape or for a last strike...

Grima was probably in an anteroom, awaiting his master's orders. So it was he who frist heard Gandalf. Since Saruman turned his attention to his visitors, he may have left the door to the palantir room unlocked, thus allowing Grima access to the room.

Why Grima threw it? A few reasons spring to mind:
[LIST][*]Kill two birds with one stone, literally.

It glanced off the iron rail, even as Saruman left it, and passing close to Gandalf's head...

[*]Kill two birds with one stone, half literally.

Discussed already.
[*]Help the good guys.

No, don't laugh, don't kill me, just let me explain. See, Grima was a man of indecision. He switched from one side to the other with ease, depending on its appeal. Now Gandalf maybe an enemy, but a victorious one. He wants a part of that victory(maybe he regrets not fighting alongside Theoden...), however small, like freedom. He was angered by Saruman's stubborn refusal, and to "convince" him, threw the Stone to Gandalf. Since Saruman lost one of his "precious," a communication device at that, Orthanc was made less homely for him.

Later days! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
->Elenrod

[ 1:20 AM November 27, 2003: Message edited by: Nilpaurion Felagund ]