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Old 08-17-2004, 08:54 AM   #81
Aiwendil
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VE-04: The Lost Tales fragments will of course end up being a little choppy no matter what we do with them. So I guess I can live with Findegil's last proposal, despite the unevenness in style. I'm still torn on the issue of whether these fragments really ought to be used. But as both of you want to use them, I suppose we shall. I will try to see if I can come up with any alternative ways of editing them together, though I doubt I can do any better.

VE-11: Findegil wrote:

Quote:
Aren't the enchanted Ilse exactly one of the ways by which the cruse of the Noldor worked?
This was my thought as well.
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Old 08-17-2004, 12:22 PM   #82
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White Tree

Quote:
Aren't the enchanted Ilse exactly one of the ways by which the cruse of the Noldor worked? And to what other isles did Vornwë refer here
I had forgotten about that.
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Old 08-18-2004, 03:37 AM   #83
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Posted by Maedhros:
Quote:
I had forgotten about that.
Does that mean that both of you agree to include the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl and The Happy Mariners?

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Old 08-18-2004, 07:53 AM   #84
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Quote:
Does that mean that both of you agree to include the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl and The Happy Mariners?
I do at least.
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Old 09-09-2004, 08:36 PM   #85
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I went back and looked (albeit quickly) at each change individually.

VE-01: The original changes look fine

VE-02: I expressed some doubts earlier in the thread about using QS77 and AB here. I still have these reservations, but it's not a critical point to me.

VE-03: I think we came to an agreement on this.

VE-04: This looks good.

VE-05: I'm not sure whether we finally agreed on Findegil's proposal (post 50) to switch the paragraphs. I would go with it.

VE-06: Good.

VE-07: It still feels a little awkward to me, but I think there may be nothing we can do about that. The one thing that strikes me that we might change is:

Quote:
[Tuor and Idril] {bids} [bade] farwell to {Eärendel} [Eärendil] and {bids} [bade] him thrust it off <EL {And} [but] before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil her son: “The Elessar I leave with thee, for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal. But to none other shalt thou deliver it.”> {and with Idril he} Then [they] set sail <TY [(and some say Voronwë with them)]> into the sunset and the West[.]
. . . the addition of "then" after Idril's speech, to make the edits flow together more smoothly.

VE-08: I'm confused. Did we accidentally start calling this "VE-04" above?
We elected not to use LotR additions. Did we come to an agreement on the LT?

VE-09: Correcting "Lothrim" back to "folk of Sirion" as agreed, this looks good.

VE-10: I believe Maedhros had a possible objection to the addition from the Name-list which was never resolved.

VE-11: Looking back at this, I think that the addition of the LT material on the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl is very disjointed. We might try smoothing it out - but no matter what we do, it will be awkward, since it plays no logical role in the sentence it interrupts.

Even if we keep it, we must consider the poem. As I said earlier, there is a major problem there with lines like:

Quote:
with orient fire in many a hoarded spark
that divers won
in waters of the rumoured Sun.
. . . and with the phrase "past Gondobar".

VE-12: I think this is good.

VE-13: After being discussed at great length, this section looks good to me.

VE-14 - VE-19: With the minor corrections to these, they are good.

VE-20: Did we ever come to a final decision on the MT additions? I'm still inclined against them.

VE-21: I think the decision in the Prophecy thread is good.
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Old 09-10-2004, 06:28 AM   #86
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I will try to comment on the § questioned by Aiwendil:

VE-02: In addition to the marked haven just south of the cape of Balar, I hold the way to introduce Avernien here as highly disierable. Also I think that we have to add Gil-galad in these § (the change is numbered VE-03). Thus the addition from QS77 seems in place to introduce the way Gil-galad came to them. What is left than is the Silmaril and the Elessar healing them. The introduction of the Elessar is needed since we tell the further story of the stone. And since its ability was to heal the hurts of the world this function should be added here from AB2. But two thinks are awakward for me: Can the crused Silmaril bring belssing to anybody? I don't think so, especially in view of the role the cruse play the the Nauglamir chapter. And did the fugutives realy multiply? They might become swelled by further arrivals but the naturell interpretation would be child bearing and birth, which I find very unlikely for Elves in such a situation of a last revuge. I would rather skip the "and multiplied".
Thus we would get:
Quote:
VE-02 Yet by Sirion and the sea there grew up an elven folk, the gleanings of Gondolin and Doriath[.] <UT, Elessar There Idril wore the Elessar upon her breast><AB2 , and they were healed,><QS77 ; and from Balar the mariners of Círdan came among them>[u]. ...

VE-05: Since I brought it in I also find it a good solution to switch the §§.


VE-07: The "then" as an editorial brigde looks good for me. The flow of the text is deal better with it.

VE-08: It seemed that this was my fault. My appologies. I head-lined it in post no. 80 VE-04 which is clearly wrong.

VE-10: I thought Maedhros did agree to them when I gave the apropirate source information. But Meadhros might comment on that better.

VE-11: Does this work better:
Quote:
... Maybe it was due in part to the puissance of that holy jewel that they came in time to the waters that as yet no vessels save those of the Teleri had known; and they came to the Enchanted Isles and thus they escaped their enchantment{.}: <LT2 - isolated Note (xii)The Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl was awakened by {Littleheart's gong:}[them]/. He was/ a messenger that was despatched years ago by Turgon and enmeshed in magics. Even now he {cannot }could not leave the Tower and {warns}warned them of the magic[u].
Quote:
There silent boats go by into the West
all piled and twinkling in the dark
with orient fire in many a hoarded spark
that divers won
in waters of the rumoured Sun.
What is your problem with these lines? The development that let to them should not be a problem for the lines themself. As they stand know we have here ships filled with "sparks of orient fire won by divers". Knowing nothing about what it was once suggested to be, I would read that as a description of pearls as best and exotic fishes as worst. I see thus no forcing need to change that. The "rumoured Sun" might be questioned as well, but we have to take the point of view of the singer into account. The Tower of Pearls stood on the boundary of the shadowy sea which was discribed as full of mist and darkness. Thus the sun might be called only a rumour to one singing about that area.

For the phrase "past Gondobar" we also have to take the singer into account. As I read the poem it recounts here a song that the sleeper in the tower utters to the mariners that go by. But he is an very isolated being that had no news from the world outside his tower. Thus even if he had heared from Eärendil that Gondolin was no more he might still express the longing for accompainment with the mariners by a (wrong) discription of area he belived they came from. Especially that becomes belivable for me when we think of his history as a messenger of Turgon.

VE-20: At least I thought that your arguments against them were valid. But Maedhros suggested these addition. He might still say something for their inclusion.

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Old 09-10-2004, 01:22 PM   #87
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VE-02: As I look at this again I begin to see your point. My only reservation is that the additions from AB cannot really be necessary, as Tolkien didn't add these points into Q30. I wonder about the date of AB2, though. Christopher seems unsure about the time of its composition, but I wonder whether we may safely assume it's from after 1930. If so, then I could see the additions being justifiable as updates to the earlier account.

I agree now about the Gil-Galad additions from QS77, though.

I don't see the need to eliminate "and multiplied". I do understand your concern, but Tolkien clearly thought it was okay in AB2.

I also don't see a problem with the Silmaril bringing blessing upon them. The Silmarils are not like the Ring - they are not inherently evil. It is only the Oath of Feanor and the Doom of the Noldor that, as it were, attach a sort of evil to them - or perhaps "evil" isn't the right word even here; they attach doom to them. And the havens do indeed come under the Doom of the Noldor in the Third Kin-slaying.

VE-11: Well, it's going to be a bit awkward any way. Maybe we could use a "there" to smooth things out:

Quote:
Maybe it was due in part to the puissance of that holy jewel that they came in time to the waters that as yet no vessels save those of the Teleri had known; and they came to the Enchanted Isles. There <LT2 - isolated Note (xii)The Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl was awakened by {Littleheart's gong:}[them]/. He was/ a messenger that was despatched years ago by Turgon and enmeshed in magics. Even now he {cannot }could not leave the Tower and {warns}warned them of the magic. Thus they{ and} escaped their enchantment.
As for "Gondobar" - if this is a song made later by the Elves about the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl, why would they make any mistake about "Gondobar"? Also, the syntax of the sentence here simply doesn't seem to allow the interpretation of "Gondobar" as "Gondolin":

Quote:
O happy mariners upon a journey far,
beyond the grey islands and past Gondobar,
to those great portals on the final shores
The phrases "beyond the grey islands" and "to those great portals on the final shores" suggest that the mariners in question are away in the direction of Aman relative to the speaker. The "grey islands" and "Gondobar" seem to lie between the speaker and the mariners. In any case, it makes little sense to say "beyond the grey islands and past Gondolin".

As for the divers and their hoarded sparks - as I understand it, the motivation for these lines is the story in the LT version of "The Hiding of Valinor" that some of the radiance of the sun was dropped accidentally into the ocean. With that story removed, all justification for the lines is also gone. We could invent some justification, but that would be fan-fiction, whether we explicitly state it or not.
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Old 09-10-2004, 09:42 PM   #88
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I think that Findegil explanation of VE-02 is ok. I have no problems with the additions from AB2.

Quote:
VE-05: Since I brought it in I also find it a good solution to switch the §§.
I'm ok with the changing of the order of the parragraphs too.

Quote:
. . . the addition of "then" after Idril's speech, to make the edits flow together more smoothly.
I will defer all matters of grammar to Aiwendil. If he thinks that it sounds better, then that is ok with me.

Quote:
VE-10: I believe Maedhros had a possible objection to the addition from the Name-list which was never resolved.
Findegil is correct, I did accept them.

Quote:
VE-08: I'm confused. Did we accidentally start calling this "VE-04" above?
We elected not to use LotR additions. Did we come to an agreement on the LT?
I thought that we had agreed to drop the LorR additions and keep those of LT. I'm ok with VE-08 as is in the post # 80.

Again, I like Aiwendil's suggestion regarding VE-11. I think now that if find that the Poem is in any way unsuitable to our purpose because it is difficult to enmend, then we should drop it.

Quote:
VE-20: Did we ever come to a final decision on the MT additions? I'm still inclined against them.
If you are against it, then I can live without them.
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Old 09-12-2004, 05:33 PM   #89
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VE-02: Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
I don't see the need to eliminate "and multiplied". I do understand your concern, but Tolkien clearly thought it was okay in AB2.
Accepted.
Concerning the blessing brought by the Silmaril: Maybe I did not make my argument clear enough. What I meant was not the general fate the Silmaril brought to any possesor, i meant that this special Silmaril was bound up with the Naglamir. And that Necklace was really crused by Mîm to bring woe to anybody who possesed it. Now that does not mean that the Silmaril could not bring blessing to the Folk of Sirion while the Nauglamir brought (in the end) woe to Elwing who possesed it. If both of you think the sentence can stand we will keep it.

VE-11: Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Well, it's going to be a bit awkward any way. Maybe we could use a "there" to smooth things out:
I am okay with that editorial bridge.

Concerning "Gondobar": Okay, if the destination of the journey that the Sleeper did (rightly?) ascribe to the Mariners is the Door of Night as it is discribed in LT, my argument is clearly not valid. But then that does not fit any cosmology what so ever. Since that Door is further west then the "grey Islands" (and anythink else) however can Gondobar then lay between the Sleeper and the destination he did ascribe to the mariners?
But how then can the load of the ships can be named "sparks of orient fire"? The "orient fire" must be found in the east! This is also told in LT in The Hiding of Valinor:
Quote:
... and much precious radiance was spilled in their attemps about the deepest waters, and escaped to linger as secret sparks in many an unknown ocean cavern. These have many elfin divers, and divers of the faxs, long time sought beyond the outmost East, even as is sung in the song of the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl.
Thus the door discribed could be the one that is needed in the haven of the sun in the east (seen in the Akalabeth even by the Numenoreans) after the Wall of the World became globe-shaped. But all this was changed later when the Chasem of Ilmen appeared. So what we can take as conclusion is: The destination of the mariners was in the east, since they sought "sparks of orient fire". Gondobar was taken into the poem in the revision of 1940. What ever Tolkien meant by it, I don't see a good reason to change it, since by doing so we would correct him without a indication by himself.
The same goes for the "sparks of orient fire": The words are still part of the revised poem, when the story that motivated them had gone but Tolkien retained the words than the meaning he intended for these words must have changed. We could speculat about the new meaning as I have done in my last post but that was not meant to be mentioned anywhere, it was just meant to be an example of how it could be interpreted in the new circumstances Tolkien put them.

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Old 09-13-2004, 05:29 PM   #90
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VE-02: Even if the curse of Mim brought eventual doom upon the Havens via the Nauglamir, the Silmaril may simultaneously have brought blessing. I definitely still vote for keeping it.

VE-11: Findegil wrote:

Quote:
The destination of the mariners was in the east, since they sought "sparks of orient fire".
But:

Quote:
There silent boats go by into the West
And in any case, why would the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl see boats coming from Valinor and heading east?

It is "orient" spark, I think, because it comes from the Sun, which rises in the east.

That Tolkien revised it in 1940 does not necessarily mean that he considered it canonically valid at that point.
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Old 09-15-2004, 12:29 PM   #91
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VE-02: Okay, your are perhaps right in this, though I can accept that.

VE1-11: I think we must analyse the Song completely through before we can get some answers. So I will start to give my view of it. For convenience I will give first the text of the poem as revised in 1940. For reference I have numbered the lines according to the numbering in LT (some line were skipped in 1940):
Quote:
I know a window in a Western tower
that opens on celestial seas,
from wells of dark behind the stars
there ever blows cold a keen unearthly breeze.
It is a white tower builded on the Twilit Isles, . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
and springing from their everlasting shade
it glimmers like a house of lonely pearl,
where lights forlorn take harbour ere they fade.

Its feet are washed by waves that never rest.
There silent boats go by into the West . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
all piled and twinkling in the dark
with orient fire in many a hoarded spark
that divers won
in waters of the rumoured Sun.
There sometimes throbs below a silver harp, . . . . . . . . . . . 15
touching the heart with sudden music sharp;
or far beneath the mountain high and sheer
the voices of grey sailors echo clear,
afloat among the shadows of the world
in oarless ships and with their canvas furled, . . . . . . . . . . . 20
chanting a farewell and a solemn song:
for wide the sea is, and their journey long.

O happy mariners upon a journey far,
beyond the grey islands and past Gondobar,
to those great portals on the final shores . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25
where far away constellate fountains leap,
and dashed against Night's dragon-headed doors
in foam of stars fall sparkling in the deep!
While I look out alone behind the moon
Imprisoned in the white and windy tower, . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30
you bide no moment and await no hour, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31
but go with solemn song and harpers' tune. . . . . . . . . . . . 36

You follow [Eärendil] without rest,
the shining mariner, beyond the West,
who passed the mouth of night and launched his bark
upon the seas of everlasting dark. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40
Here only long afar through window-pane . . . . . . . . . . . . . 44
I glimpse the flicker of the golden rain . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45
that falls for ever on those outer seas
beyond the country of the shining Trees.
Stance 1 and 2 are a kind of introduction. Up to line 11 the poem does tell us the place that the poet will talk about. I think that the position of the tower is clear enough and that nothing said here raised any contradiction.
The line 10 to 14 are more critical. They doe tell us something about the journey of the mariners: Line 10 does tell us that the ships are sailing from east to west at the moment described by the poem. Line 11 to 14 doe tell us some thing about the load the ships carry and therewith some thing of the purpose and course of the journey they had undertaken before they encounter the Tower (possibly for the second time). With our knowledge of LT we could make that knowledge of the journey more clear: The mariners are "elfin divers{, and divers of the fays}" that had "sought beyond the outmost East" for "secret sparks in many an unknown ocean cavern". What the sparks are in the circumstances of the LT is clear: "much precious radiance [that] was spilled in their [the Gods] attempts about the deepest waters" "to draw the Sun ... beneath the Earth". But this concept is clearly gone in 1940 when the poem was last revised and even earlier when the poem was greatly reshaped. Thus what Tolkien meant the "orient fire in many a hoarded spark" to be, in the later version is unknown to us and we should kept it dubious.
Line 15 to 22 tell us that the mariners did know that the tower was inhabited and sing a farewell to him which led him to his lament in the second half of the poem. How did they know about him? This raise the question were the journey of this mariners started. Were did they come from? In my view they could only be Teleri (Solosimpi) that had come from Eldamar and crossed the tower once before. Or (and that might prove the killing argument for the inclusion of the poem) if the scene for the poem was later they were Elves of Tol Eressea that were on such a journey. If the west as the home of mariners and the place of their final destination is accepted, than the next trouble some lines 23 to 28 become clearer: The "journey fare" had led the "happy mariners" from their home "beyond the grey islands [were the tower stood] and past Gondobar" (poetic form of an messenger of Turgon to say) fare to the east and know they are heading back into the west "to those great portals on the final shores where far away constellate fountains leap, and dashed against Night's dragon-headed doors in foam of stars fall sparkling in the deep!" Thus my conclusion in the last post was clearly wrong the "portal on the last shore" is the door of the night. And this again hints at a later date for the scene, since the door is only necessary when Morgoth is finally put outside the world.
In my view the rest of the poem is more or less uncritical.

In this long and winding post I have now explained to the best of my ability what kind of journey the happy mariners did undertake and how the description given in the poem can be interpreted in accordance with that, but I also convinced myself that the journey described would be impossible before the bane of the Noldor was lifted and Morgoth was finally overthrown. Thus I am now convinced that we should not include the poem in the chapter of The Voyage of Eärendil. If there is any place for it in our work it must be placed in the second age, but that is far in the future so we need not discuss it now. (That's what is so nice in our discussion: I will learn which each new post - in some rare cases even with my own once.)

So I think we are settled at long last concerning the poem. We will not include it here. But I still think we should keep the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl even if his song is gone.

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Old 09-15-2004, 01:16 PM   #92
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Some thing that came to mind after I did my above discussion of the Happy mariners song:
The Door of Night is only two times mentioned in Sil77 both times in the chapter The Voyges of Eärendil. Once when Eärendil passed it with his ship to lunch it into the sky and the other time when Morgoth is put through it to put him outside the world. In view of the old conception of the door as a way through which the Sun did went out to journey by night under the flat world that was okay, but since we have now the chasm of Ilme through which Sun and Moon make their journey under the roots of the World to the east, we must ask how Eärendil can be said to pass the Door of Night to come into the sky. And since he is told to come back to Valinor he must cross the Door of Night often which isn't very proable. And which propurse did the Door fulfill at that time at all? In view of what we read in Myths transformed I must say that it would be savest to skip the Door of Night from the journeys of Eärendil.

That would lead to:
Quote:
VE-11 ...
... But they took Vingilot, and they hallowed it, and they bore it away through Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world, and there it {passed through the Door of Night and was lifted} up even into the oceans of heaven. Now fair and marvellous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright; and {Eärendel} [Eärendil] the mariner sat at the helm, glistening with dust of elven-gems; and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow. Far he journeyed in that ship, even into the starless voids; but most often was he seen at morning or at eve, glimmering in sunrise or sunset, as he came back to Valinor from voyages beyond the confines of the world.
...
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Old 09-20-2004, 12:48 PM   #93
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VE-11: I suppose that if we agree that the poem ought not to be used here, there's no point in continuing to debate its meaning (not yet, anyway).

As for the Door of Night: Tolkien still considered it valid in 1937 when he added it back to QS. As far as I recall, the old conception was that the Door of Night was not made until Melkor was cast out; but Tolkien's additions to QS have it existing before then. If it's not mentioned anywhere else in the narrative then there can be no contradiction.

Which Myths Transformed texts are you referring to? We're not using that cosmology in any case.
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:50 PM   #94
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The question I raised proves much more diffcult than I thought!

The text in Myths Trabsformed reffered to in my last post is in § iii of text VII Notes on motives in the Silmarillion.:
Quote:
The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Namo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwe and Namo) that, though he had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself' and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Ea altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.
This of course reffers to a a round earth cosmology which we do not deal with (or at least which our version of the Translations of the Elvish did deny for the time of the defeat of Morgoth). What I thought would make a passage of Eärendil through the Door of Night impossible was the fact that in this concept it would led him "outside time and space" and not into the sky. But if the text is interpreted more like Tolkien did it in his last remark, than the Door of Night can stand as a confused concept never fully explained in the text. Since it is said of Eärednils journey that they led him into the starless viod, it could also be right that Tolkien saw him really as passing the Door of Night. But than I would interpret the text as her giving a look into the future to a time when Morgoth was thrust out (for which reason the door was build).
However the Door of Night can stand as a passage of Eärendils journey in the sky in our version even if I find it still odd.

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Old 09-22-2004, 10:15 PM   #95
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I agree that the Door of Night feels a bit odd. The whole QS/Ainulindale D cosmology feels a little odd to me, actually. But we're not going with the Myths Transformed cosmology and since "Door of Night" is used in QS I say we stick with it.

It looks to me like the only thing left not completely resolved is VE-08. I've gone back and forth on whether the Lost Tales fragments work here. In the end, though, I think it would be safer not to. So I guess I vote against them.
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Old 09-24-2004, 02:39 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aiwendil
It looks to me like the only thing left not completely resolved is VE-08. I've gone back and forth on whether the Lost Tales fragments work here. In the end, though, I think it would be safer not to. So I guess I vote against them.
In post #77 it is stated by Findegil:

Quote:
Not what I whish for, but if that is what you both think must be done I am okay with it. Thus we get this:
Quote:
VE-08<*PoME After apprenticeship to Círdan, and ever with his advice and help, Eärendil built> Vingilot'{ he built}, fairest of the ships of song, the Foamflower; white were its timbers as the argent moon, golden were its oars, silver were its shrouds, its masts were crowned with jewels like stars. In the Lay of Eärendil is many a thing sung of his adventures in the deep and in lands untrodden, and in many seas and many isles. {Ungoliant in the South he slew, and her darkness was destroyed, and light came to many regions which had yet long been hid.} But Ewing sat sorrowing at home.
The VE-08 do not have the Lost Tales fragments in there.
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Old 09-24-2004, 04:04 PM   #97
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That is right but the direct respons Aiwendil did say that he was tempted to use the LT fragments. And thus I did re-incooperat them after you also suported them. Thus up to Aiwendils last post I thought we would use them. But as I said in post #77:I would like to have them included but I can live without them.

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Old 09-27-2004, 07:49 PM   #98
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I've gone over things again just to be sure and I can find nothing else that is not settled.

It looks to me like we're done with the Voyage of Earendil (for now, anyway).
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Old 09-28-2004, 02:16 AM   #99
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Okay, that's nice. I have a Dokument nearly ready for this chapter. I have just to controll it again so that it contains the last things deciede here. (Just to prevent some double working.)

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Old 09-28-2004, 03:57 PM   #100
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White Tree

Wow, that definitely took less time than the 2 years it took for our Fall of Gondolin.
Does that mean that we can now continue with our discussion about the Ruin of Doriath.
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Old 07-08-2006, 04:35 PM   #101
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I found some further snippets of text that we need to consider for this chapter:
The first is from the Sil77 and will give a better coupling between the telling of Tuors departure and Eärendil’s voyage. And it will introduce the marriage of Eärendil and Elwing and their children Elrond and Elros:
Quote:
Then [they] set sail <TY [(and some say Voronwë with them)]> into the sunset and the West. <TE-E {Eärendel}[Eärendil] {hears}heard a great song swelling from the sea as{ Tur's skiff dips over the world's rim.}<TE-NC {Idril and Earendel see} Tuor’s boat {dropping}dropped into the twilight{ and a sound of song}.>{His}/Great was his/ passion of tears upon the shore.> {, and}And Tuor came no more into any tale or song.
VE-07.3 <Sil77 Bright Eärendil was then lord of the people that dwelt nigh to Sirion's mouths; and he took to wife Elwing the fair, and she bore to him Elrond and Elros, who are called the Half-elven.> VE-07.5 <Shibboleth The names Elros and Elrond, the last of the descendants of Finwe born in the Elder Days, were formed to recall the name of their mother Elwing. The meaning of wing is uncertain, since it occurs in no other personal name, nor in the records of either Sindarin or Quenya. Some of the loremasters, remembering that after their return to a second life Beren and Lúthien dwelt in Ossiriand{, and that there Dior dwelt after the fall of Doriath} among the Green Elves of that forest country, have supposed that wing is a word of the tongue of the Green Elves; but little was preserved of that tongue after the destruction of Beleriand, and the interpretation of wing as meaning 'foam, spume, spindrift' as of water blown by the wind, or falling steeply over rocks, is but a likely guess. It is supported, however, by the fact that Ossiriand was a land cloven by seven rivers (as its name signifies), and that these fell steeply and very swift from the Mountains of Ered Lindon. Beside one great waterfall, called in Sindarin Lanthir Lamath ('waterfall of echoing voices'), Dior had his house. Moreover the name Elros (in Quenya form Elerossë) means 'star foam', sc. starlit foam.> VE-07.6 <Ros Now Elrond was a word for the firmament, the starry dome as it appeared like a roof to Arda; and it was given by Elwing in memory of the great Hall of the Throne of Elwe in the midst of his stronghold of Menegroth that was called the Menelrond,[footnote: Menelrond: 'heaven-dome'.] because by the arts and aid of Melian its high arched roof had been adorned with silver and gems set in the order and figures of the stars in the great Dome of Valmar (21) in Aman, whence Melian came.>
VE-07.8 <Sil77 Yet Eärendil could not rest, and his voyages about the shores of the Hither Lands eased not his unquiet. Two purposes grew in his heart, blended as one in longing for the wide Sea: he sought to sail thereon, seeking after Tuor and Idril who returned not; and he thought to find perhaps the last shore, and bring ere he died the message of Elves and Men to the Valar in the West, that should move their hearts to pity for the sorrows of Middle-earth.
Now Eärendil became fast in friendship with Círdan the Shipwright, who dwelt on the Isle of Balar with those of his people who escaped from the sack of the Havens of Brithombar and Eglarest.> VE-08<*PoME After apprenticeship to Círdan, and ever with his advice and help, Eärendil built> Vingilot{' he built}, fairest of the ships of song, the Foamflower; white were its timbers as the argent moon, golden were its oars, silver were its shrouds, its masts were crowned with jewels like stars. …
The second passage deals with the Elrond and Elros and their fate after the battle:
Quote:
VE-11.01 But great was the sorrow of {Eärendel}[Eärendil] and Elwing for the ruin of the havens of Sirion, and the captivity of their sons; and they feared that they would be slain; but it was not so. VE-11.025 <Letter no. 211 Elrond and Elros, children of Eärendil {(sea-lover)} and Elwing {(Elf-foam)}, were so called, because they were carried off by the sons of Fëanor, in the last act of the feud between the high-elven houses of the Noldorin princes concerning the Silmarils; the Silmaril rescued from Morgoth by Beren and Lúthien, and given to King Thingol Lúthien's father, had descended to Elwing {dtr.}[daughter] of Dior, son of Lúthien. The infants were not slain, but left like 'babes in the wood', in a cave with a fall of water over the entrance. There they were found: Elrond within the cave, and Elros dabbling in the water.> {For}And Maglor took pity on Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor's heart was sick and weary, with the burden of the dreadful oath. …
We could take out a bit of this from the middle, because it is more a repetition in the context we bring it in.

And we have later on a passage from Ros:
Quote:
And that was the voice of Eönwë herald of Manwë; and he came from Valmar and he summoned {Eärendel}[Eärendil] to come before the {Gods}[Valar]. And {Eärendel}[Eärendil] went to Valinor and to the halls of Valmar, and never again set foot upon the lands of Men. There before the faces of the undying {Gods}[Valar] he stood, and delivered the errand of the Two Kindreds. Pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon unhappy Men and succour in their need. And his prayers were granted. VE-11.035 <Ros In the havens of refuge, when Morgoth's conquest was all but complete, there were several tongues to be heard. Not only the Sindarin, which was chiefly used, but also its Northern dialect; and among the Men of the Atani some still used their Mannish speeches; and of all these Eärendil had some knowledge. It is said that before Manwë he spoke the errand of Elves and Men first in Sindarin, since that might represent all those of the suppliants who had survived the war with Morgoth; but he repeated it in Quenya, since that was the language of the Noldor, who alone were under the ban of the Valar; and he added a prayer in the Mannish tongues of Hador and Beor,(17) pleading that they were not under the ban, and had aided the Eldar only in their war against Morgoth, the enemy of the Valar. For the Atani had not rebelled against the Valar; they had rejected Morgoth and fled Westward seeking the Valar as the representatives of the One. This plea Manwë accepted, and one voice alone spoke aloud the doubt that was in the hearts of all the Valar. Mandos said: Nonetheless they are descendants of Men, who rejected the One himself. That is an evil seed that may grow again. For even if we under Eru have the power to return to Middle-earth and cast out Morgoth from the Kingdom of Arda, we cannot destroy all the evil that he has sown, nor seek out all his servants - unless we ravaged the whole of the Kingdom and made an end of all life therein; and that we may not do.'>
VE-11.04 Then the host of the Valar prepared for battle, and the captain of their host was Eönwë to whom Manwë gave his sword. …
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Old 12-02-2007, 05:11 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Findegil
And we have later on a passage from Ros:
Quote:
<Ros In the havens of refuge, when Morgoth's conquest was all but complete, there were several tongues to be heard. Not only the Sindarin, which was chiefly used, but also its Northern dialect; and among the Men of the Atani some still used their Mannish speeches; and of all these Eärendil had some knowledge. It is said that before Manwë he spoke the errand of Elves and Men first in Sindarin, since that might represent all those of the suppliants who had survived the war with Morgoth; but he repeated it in Quenya, since that was the language of the Noldor, who alone were under the ban of the Valar; and he added a prayer in the Mannish tongues of Hador and Beor,(17) pleading that they were not under the ban, and had aided the Eldar only in their war against Morgoth, the enemy of the Valar. For the Atani had not rebelled against the Valar; they had rejected Morgoth and fled Westward seeking the Valar as the representatives of the One. This plea Manwë accepted, and one voice alone spoke aloud the doubt that was in the hearts of all the Valar. Mandos said: Nonetheless they are descendants of Men, who rejected the One himself. That is an evil seed that may grow again. For even if we under Eru have the power to return to Middle-earth and cast out Morgoth from the Kingdom of Arda, we cannot destroy all the evil that he has sown, nor seek out all his servants - unless we ravaged the whole of the Kingdom and made an end of all life therein; and that we may not do.'>
Ah, I am so glad someone suggested this addition. I loved that description in the Ros writing, and it helps flesh out the details of this important event. However, I think that the first sentence about the languages in Sirion is a bit jarring to the flow of the narrative; here's how I would write it:

Quote:
And that was the voice of Eönwë herald of Manwë; and he came from Valmar and he summoned {Eärendel}[Eärendil] to come before the {Gods}[Valar]. And {Eärendel}[Eärendil] went to Valinor and to the halls of Valmar, and never again set foot upon the lands of Men. There before the faces of the undying {Gods}[Valar] he stood, and delivered the errand of the Two Kindreds. Pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon unhappy Men and succour in their need. And his prayers were granted. VE-11.035 <Ros It is said that before Manwë he spoke the errand of Elves and Men first in Sindarin, since that might represent all those of the suppliants who had survived the war with Morgoth; but he repeated it in Quenya, since that was the language of the Noldor, who alone were under the ban of the Valar; and he added a prayer in the Mannish tongues of Hador and Beor,(17) pleading that they were not under the ban, and had aided the Eldar only in their war against Morgoth, the enemy of the Valar. For the Atani had not rebelled against the Valar; they had rejected Morgoth and fled Westward seeking the Valar as the representatives of the One. This plea Manwë accepted, and one voice alone spoke aloud the doubt that was in the hearts of all the Valar. Mandos said: Nonetheless they are descendants of Men, who rejected the One himself. That is an evil seed that may grow again. For even if we under Eru have the power to return to Middle-earth and cast out Morgoth from the Kingdom of Arda, we cannot destroy all the evil that he has sown, nor seek out all his servants - unless we ravaged the whole of the Kingdom and made an end of all life therein; and that we may not do.'>
VE-11.04 Then the host of the Valar prepared for battle, and the captain of their host was Eönwë to whom Manwë gave his sword. …
Of course, the slight problem is that the text summarizes his prayers, and then they are given... perhaps we could move the Sil's summary inside of Ros' description, or take it out entirely?

Either way, the description of Mandos about what the War of Wrath will not be able to do for Middle-earth (i.e. cleanse it entirely) is a very good addition to the story, especially since the Akallabêth and Of the Rings of Power are right around the corner...
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:03 PM   #103
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Findegil wrote:
Quote:
The first is from the Sil77 and will give a better coupling between the telling of Tuors departure and Eärendil’s voyage. And it will introduce the marriage of Eärendil and Elwing and their children Elrond and Elros
I'm a little confused. Comparing this with my copy of our text, it looks like your proposed addition is the matter from 'Shibboleth' and 'Ros' (VE-07.5 and VE-07.6). The pieces from the '77 were already in our version, correct? Also, it looks like the bit about 'Tuor alone of mortal men' being numbered among the Eldar dropped out here.

In any case, I'm quite hesitant about using the 'Shibboleth' and 'Ros' material here; the etymological aside completely disrupts the narrative and is blatantly out of place. On the other hand, I do recognize the desirability of includinig that information if possible.

Note, though, that if this material (or some form of it) is added here, the "Yet" that begins VE-07.8 no longer has any reference and must be deleted.

The next proposed addition is VE-11.025, correct? I think it is a good idea to add the detail of Elrond and Elros being found in a cave behind a waterfall, but I would try to avoid the redundancy which you've already noted.

Concerning VE-11.035, I think that Tar-Telperien is right here (and welcome to the project, by the way!). The information here is good, but the bit concerning the languages spoken at Sirion is jarring and disruptive. I think Tar-Telperien's proposed revision is suitable. I don't see a particular problem with the Silmarillion material's anticipation of the content of Earendil's prayer (it is, after all, fairly obvious that he is going to ask for the pardon and aid of the Valar). However, I would delete the "And his prayers were granted" which now comes out of sequence.
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:29 PM   #104
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Thank you.

If we are going to use that Ros segment, should we replace Atani with Edain? This is potentially a big issue—sometimes the word Atani means "all Men", and other times it is used as a synonym of its Sindarin cognate, Edain—"the Men of the Three Houses who aided the Elves in their war against Morgoth". This Atani/Edain conflict could easily come up in other places, too; has any consensus been made on it?

Aiwendil, I had also considered cutting out that line, but I like its "definiteness"... I was wondering if there was a way we could break up that long sentence about the languages of the prayers and sneak it in somewhere. But if not, oh well.
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Old 12-03-2007, 02:42 PM   #105
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Postes by Aiwendil:
Quote:
I'm a little confused.
You are not alone with this. I looked into the mebers only forum and could not find any text of this chapter, which is my fault. I will correct this as soon as this post is done.
Quote:
Comparing this with my copy of our text
I wonder which copy you have.
Quote:
it looks like your proposed addition is the matter from 'Shibboleth' and 'Ros' (VE-07.5 and VE-07.6). The pieces from the '77 were already in our version, correct?
No, as far as I know the addition from Sil77 was not in the proposed text.
Quote:
Also, it looks like the bit about 'Tuor alone of mortal men' being numbered among the Eldar dropped out here.
That is correct, but I agree that it should not be so.
Quote:
In any case, I'm quite hesitant about using the 'Shibboleth' and 'Ros' material here; the etymological aside completely disrupts the narrative and is blatantly out of place. On the other hand, I do recognize the desirability of includinig that information if possible.
May be we can avoid this and correct the other points as well:
Quote:
… Then [they] set sail <TY [(and some say Voronwë with them)]> into the sunset and the West. <TE-E {Eärendel}[Eärendil] {hears}heard a great song swelling from the sea as{ Tur's skiff dips over the world's rim.}<TE-NC {Idril and Earendel see} Tuor’s boat {dropping}dropped into the twilight{ and a sound of song}.>{His}/Great was his/ passion of tears upon the shore.> {, and}And Tuor came no more into any tale or song. VE-07.3 <Sil77 But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.
Bright Eärendil was then lord of the people that dwelt nigh to Sirion's mouths; and he took to wife Elwing the fair, and she bore to him {Elrond and Elros}two sons, who are called the Half-elven.> VE-07.5 /And they named them/ <Shibboleth {The names} Elros and Elrond{, the last of the descendants of Finwe born in the Elder Days,}/The names/ were formed to recall the name of their mother Elwing. {The meaning of wing is uncertain, since it occurs in no other personal name, nor in the records of either Sindarin or Quenya. Some of the loremasters, remembering that after their return to a second life Beren and Lúthien dwelt in Ossiriand, and that there Dior dwelt after the fall of Doriath among the Green Elves of that forest country, have supposed that wing is a word of the tongue of the Green Elves; but little was preserved of that tongue after the destruction of Beleriand, and the interpretation of wing as meaning 'foam, spume, spindrift' as of water blown by the wind, or falling steeply over rocks, is but a likely guess. It is supported, however, by the fact that Ossiriand was a land cloven by seven rivers (as its name signifies), and that these fell steeply and very swift from the Mountains of Ered Lindon. Beside one great waterfall, called in Sindarin Lanthir Lamath ('waterfall of echoing voices'), Dior had his house. Moreover the}The name Elros (in Quenya form Elerossë) means 'star foam', sc. starlit foam.> VE-07.6 <Ros Now Elrond was a word for the firmament, the starry dome as it appeared like a roof to Arda; and it was given by Elwing in memory of the great Hall of the Throne of Elwe in the midst of his stronghold of Menegroth that was called the Menelrond,[footnote: Menelrond: 'heaven-dome'.] because by the arts and aid of Melian its high arched roof had been adorned with silver and gems set in the order and figures of the stars in the great Dome of Valmar {(21)} in Aman, whence Melian came.>
VE-07.8 <Sil77 Yet Eärendil could not rest, and his voyages about the shores of the Hither Lands eased not his unquiet. Two purposes grew in his heart, blended as one in longing for the wide Sea: he sought to sail thereon, seeking after Tuor and Idril who returned not; and he thought to find perhaps the last shore, and bring ere he died the message of Elves and Men to the Valar in the West, that should move their hearts to pity for the sorrows of Middle-earth.
Now Eärendil became fast in friendship with Círdan the Shipwright, who dwelt on the Isle of Balar with those of his people who escaped from the sack of the Havens of Brithombar and Eglarest.> VE-08<*PoME After apprenticeship to Círdan, and ever with his advice and help, Eärendil built> Vingilot{' he built}, fairest of the ships of song, the Foamflower; white were its timbers as the argent moon, golden were its oars, silver were its shrouds, its masts were crowned with jewels like stars. …
The info about Lanthir Lamath is already included in our telling of RoD.
By Aiwendil:
Quote:
Note, though, that if this material (or some form of it) is added here, the "Yet" that begins VE-07.8 no longer has any reference and must be deleted.
I don't think so. Telling about the happy family life of a man and then go over to his unrest is in my view a good place for a "Yet".

VE_11.025: Okay since we agree to shorten it, what about this:
Quote:
VE-11.01 But great was the sorrow of {Eärendel}[Eärendil] and Elwing for the ruin of the havens of Sirion, and the captivity of their sons; and they feared that they would be slain; but it was not so. VE-11.025 <Letter no. 211 Elrond and Elros{, children of Eärendil (sea-lover) and Elwing (Elf-foam), were so called, because they} were carried off by the sons of Fëanor{, in the last act of the feud between the high-elven houses of the Noldorin princes concerning the Silmarils; the Silmaril rescued from Morgoth by Beren and Lúthien, and given to King Thingol Lúthien's father, had descended to Elwing {dtr.}[daughter] of Dior, son of Lúthien}. The infants were not slain, but left like 'babes in the wood', in a cave with a fall of water over the entrance. There they were found: Elrond within the cave, and Elros dabbling in the water.> {For}And Maglor took pity on Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor's heart was sick and weary, with the burden of the dreadful oath. …
VE_11.035: I like Tar-Telperins suggestion to mix (and shorten) the texts:
Quote:
And that was the voice of Eönwë herald of Manwë; and he came from Valmar and he summoned {Eärendel}[Eärendil] to come before the {Gods}[Valar]. And {Eärendel}[Eärendil] went to Valinor and to the halls of Valmar, and never again set foot upon the lands of Men. There before the faces of the undying {Gods}[Valar] he stood, and delivered the errand of the Two Kindreds. {Pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon unhappy Men and succour in their need. And his prayers were granted.}VE-11.035 <Ros It is said that before Manwë he spoke the errand of Elves and Men first in Sindarin, since that might represent all those of the suppliants who had survived the war with Morgoth; but {he repeated it}/pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows in Quenya, since that was the language of the Noldor, who alone were under the ban of the Valar; and he added a prayer in the Mannish tongues of Hador and Beor,{(17)} pleading that they were not under the ban, and had aided the Eldar only in their war against Morgoth, the enemy of the Valar. For the Atani had not rebelled against the Valar; they had rejected Morgoth and fled Westward seeking the Valar as the representatives of the One. This plea Manwë accepted, and one voice alone spoke aloud the doubt that was in the hearts of all the Valar. Mandos said: Nonetheless they are descendants of Men, who rejected the One himself. That is an evil seed that may grow again. For even if we under Eru have the power to return to Middle-earth and cast out Morgoth from the Kingdom of Arda, we cannot destroy all the evil that he has sown, nor seek out all his servants - unless we ravaged the whole of the Kingdom and made an end of all life therein; and that we may not do.'>
VE-11.04 Then the host of the Valar prepared for battle, and the captain of their host was Eönwë to whom Manwë gave his sword. …
Atani / Edain: This is a good question. But we are on the lucky side up to now. Atani was only used as yet in the early chapters were it used to refer to all men. So this is the first place were this becomes an issue.
Even so I at first impulse tend personally to a replacement, I must say that at best this would be a replacment for clearness which normaly do only if confusions is inserted by our edting. But this I do not see here. If Tolkien used it both ways why shouldn't we?

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Old 12-16-2007, 07:45 PM   #106
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Sorry for my delay in responding.

I see now I was looking at an old version of the text (a .pdf made by Antoine in March 2004). I had your version here all along but for some reason was looking at the wrong one.

VE-07.8:
Quote:
I don't think so. Telling about the happy family life of a man and then go over to his unrest is in my view a good place for a "Yet".
Yes, re-reading it I see you're right.

VE-11.025: I like your suggestion but would emend it slightly:
Quote:
VE-11.01 But great was the sorrow of {Eärendel}[Eärendil] and Elwing for the ruin of the havens of Sirion, and the captivity of their sons; and they feared that they would be slain; but it was not so. VE-11.025 <Letter no. 211 The infants were not slain, but left {like 'babes in the wood',} in a cave with a fall of water over the entrance. There they were found: Elrond within the cave, and Elros dabbling in the water.> {For}And Maglor took pity on Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor's heart was sick and weary, with the burden of the dreadful oath. …
I eliminate the first statement that 'Elros and Elrond were carried off by the sons of Feanor' because it seems redundant to me and, after other parts of the letter are dropped, the prose seems a little uneven. I also would drop the 'like "babes in the wood"', which is Tolkien's (colloquial) comment on the tale and seems quite out of place.

VE-11.035: This revision is excellent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil
Atani / Edain: This is a good question. But we are on the lucky side up to now. Atani was only used as yet in the early chapters were it used to refer to all men. So this is the first place were this becomes an issue.
Even so I at first impulse tend personally to a replacement, I must say that at best this would be a replacment for clearness which normaly do only if confusions is inserted by our edting. But this I do not see here. If Tolkien used it both ways why shouldn't we?
I agree - it's not our job to try to clarify Tolkien's writings or terminology. Moreover, it seems probable to me that 'Atani' and 'Edain' both were used in a general sense and a specific sense (somewhat like 'Eldar'). Cf. Christopher Tolkien's comment in the '77's 'Index of Names':

Quote:
Atani The Second People', Men (singular Atan) . . . Since in Beleriand for a long time the only Men known to the Noldor and Sindar were those of the Three
Houses of the Elf-friends, this name (in the Sindarin form Adan, plural Edain)became specially associated with them, so that it was seldom applied to other Men who came later to Beleriand, or who were reported to be dwelling beyond the Mountains.
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Old 12-16-2010, 01:51 PM   #107
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(...) The next proposed addition is VE-11.025, correct? I think it is a good idea to add the detail of Elrond and Elros being found in a cave behind a waterfall, but I would try to avoid the redundancy which you've already noted.
I've been wondering about this letter, and noticed that its details have (in the thread) been merged with Quenta Silmarillion. Again I'm not part of the project really, but I wonder if I could raise a couple points.

A) I would say that, since with Tolkien story and nomenclature can be as one, and the meaning of Elrond as (it seems) *Elf of the cave (letter 211) was not to last, one wonders if the fact that he was found in a cave -- explaining his name in this conception -- was still in play.

B) but more confusingly for me, I'm wondering if we necessarily have the notion of a fostering here? We know that was part of the Quenta Silmarillion tale, but is it part of this letter?


The letter seems to say (to me anyway): Elrond and Elros were carried off by the sons of Feanor, but were not slain, and were left like babes in the wood -- and there they were found (doesn't say by whom) and so forth. But found by a Feanorean? Again it's the Feanoreans who carried them off in the first place, but didn't slay them, and left them.

Why leave them if the sons of Feanor intend to foster them? I thought this seemed to echo a version of the fate of Dior's sons, but if so, to leave out that Maglor repented for example (and went back and 'found' them)... well it just seems strange phrasing to me so far.


What do others think? We know the Silmarillion tale, but reading the letter as if one hadn't read the Silmarillion...
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Old 01-05-2011, 04:13 AM   #108
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The letter makes this a repeating story: Like the children of Dior, Elrond and Elros are carried of into the woods and left their to die by some of the Feanorians. When may speculate that thes were followers of Amrod, who was killed during the attack, so that his followers sought to avenge him by this cruelty. Others under the direct command of Maeðros and Maelor later searched for them. And in contrast to Elured and Elurin found Elrond and Elros and fostered them with care and later love grew between Maelor and the boyes.

If anything is to be questioned here it is in my oppinion the repetition of the 'babes in the wood' motive. But then it would be the doom of Elured and Elurin which is to be questioned, and we do not have any hint of what else Tolkien supposed for them. So I feel we are bound to use the story of Elured and Elurin lost in the woods of Doriath and accept the repetition of the motive.

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Old 01-05-2011, 08:35 AM   #109
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Hmm, thanks Findegil. That speculation reads possible enough, assuming Tolkien left out some rather notable information here...

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'Elrond and Elros, children of Earendil (sea-lover) and Elwing (Elf-foam), were so called, because they were carried off by the sons of Feanor, in the last act of the feud between the high-elven houses of the Noldorin princes concerning the Silmarils; the Silmaril rescued from Morgoth by Beren and Luthien, and given to King Thingol Luthien's father, had descended to Elwing dtr. of Dior, son of Luthien. The infants were not slain, but left like 'babes in the wood', in a cave with a fall of water over the entrance. There they were found: Elrond within the cave, and Elros dabbling in the water.'

JRRT, letter 211, 1958
... that is (though in any event I realize the natural inclination is to try to reconcile what we know from Quenta Silmarillion), I think a reader of this letter -- written and read when no Silmarillion was public of course -- would be quite surprised to find that the 'sons of Feanor' not only left these children in the wood... but found them and saved them too, as in 'other sons' (or Feanoreans in general)!

But possible I suppose, as I say. And I would reiterate the possibility that history might go hand in hand with nomenclature here. If (as we know is true) Elrond no longer means *Elf of the Cave according to text written after this letter, the question arguably becomes: was he found in a cave by anyone? and thus, was he left in the woods in the first place?

Not that this question can be answered easily

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Old 01-06-2011, 04:12 AM   #110
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I think you could find examples for everything, story told in letters that are in agreement with the Silmarillion, letters in which Tolkien altered the story told in the Silmarillion and storys that are told in letters in such a way that you are wondering how he could have meant the same story but were we have later scripts that show that in the Silmarillion the story was unchanged.

Therefore if their is a clear contardiction a letter might rule out an earlyer script, but as long as they can be reconciled, I would go with the combined story.

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Old 01-07-2011, 08:49 AM   #111
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I'm right with

Findegil wrote
Therefore if their is a clear contardiction a letter might rule out an earlyer script, but as long as they can be reconciled, I would go with the combined story.

But what is your final text?

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Old 01-07-2011, 11:32 AM   #112
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Our final text reads thus:
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And so came in the end to pass the last and cruellest of the slayings of Elf by Elf; and that was the third of the great wrongs achieved by the accursed oath. For the sons of Fëanor came down upon the exiles of Gondolin and the remnant of Doriath and destroyed them. Though some of their folk stood aside, and some few rebelled and were slain upon the other part aiding Elwing against their own lords (for such was the sorrow and confusion of the hearts of Elvenesse in those days), yet Maedros and Maglor won the day. Alone they now remained of the sons of Fëanor, for in that battle Amros was slain; but the folk of Sirion perished or fled away, or departed of need to join the people of Maedros. Egalmoth was the lord of the house of the Heavenly Arch, and got even out of the burning of Gondolin, and dwelt after at the mouth of Sirion, but was slain in that dire battle. Maedros now claimed the lordship of all the Elves of the Hither Lands and yet he gained not the Silmaril, for Elwing seeing that all was lost and her children Elros and Elrond taken captive, eluded the host of Maedros, and with the Nauglamír upon her breast she cast herself into the sea, and perished as folk thought. Too late the ships of Círdan and Gil-galad the King came hasting to the aid of the Elves of Sirion; and Elwing was gone, and her sons. Then such few of that people as did not perish in the assault joined themselves to Gil-galad and Galdor that valiant Noldo who led the men of the Tree in many a charge and yet won out of Gondolin and even the onslaught upon the dwellers at Sirion's mouth went with Círdan to Balar; and they told that Elros and Elrond were taken captive, but Elwing with the Silmaril upon her breast had cast herself into the sea.
But Ulmo bore her up and he gave unto her the likeness of a great white bird, and upon her breast there shone as a star the shining Silmaril, as she flew over the water to seek Eärendil her beloved. And on a time of night Eärendil at the helm saw her come towards him, as a white cloud under moon exceeding swift, as a star over the sea moving in strange course, a pale flame on wings of storm. And it is sung that she fell from the air upon the timbers of Vingilot, in a swoon, nigh unto death for the urgency of her speed, and Eärendil took her unto his bosom. And in the morn with marvelling eyes he beheld his wife in her own form beside him with her hair upon his face; and she slept.
But great was the sorrow of Eärendil and Elwing for the ruin of the havens of Sirion, and the captivity of their sons; and they feared that they would be slain; but it was not so. The infants were not slain, but left in a cave with a fall of water over the entrance. There they were found: Elrond within the cave, and Elros dabbling in the water. And Maglor took pity on Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor's heart was sick and weary, with the burden of the dreadful oath. Yet Eärendil saw now no hope left in the lands of Sirion, and he turned again in despair and came not home, but sought back once more to Valinor with Elwing at his side. ...
This is a version with out any editing marks of course. if you read back in the thread you will find the source info.

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Old 12-06-2014, 09:39 AM   #113
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By the way I noticed that a reference to the Nauglamír has been retained from QN. I don't think it's noted specifically in the constructed Silmarillion, despite that Elwing wore the Silmaril upon her breat somehow. It's interesting: in the early QN I the Nauglamír is cursed and lost in the Sea, along with the Silmaril. In QN II the Nauglamír is noted, but (IIRC) not after Elwing was raised from the Sea as a bird -- but now the Silmaril is saved with Elwing by Ulmo, although Elwing has the Silmaril upon her breast.

In Bilbo's verse -- if we are allowed to take this as Tolkien's version as conceived of at the time, and not part of Bilbo's artistic opinion -- the use of carcanet would seem to suggest Elwing wore the Nauglamír from up out of the Sea, but took the Silmaril out, and it was bound upon Earendil's brow.

If so, what happened to the 'cursed' Nauglamír after? Foster's Guide to Middle-earth wonders if Earendil did not still wear it, at least at times (or something like that), but what's interesting there is that he did not have the use of QN I or II when he published his book, so he appears to be using the poem for guidance...

... in other words, if he's only using the constructed Silmarillion as published, Elwing jumps into the Sea wearing a Silmaril, is saved by Ulmo still wearing a Silmaril; but if the Nauglamír was cursed one might wonder if Ulmo left it to the Sea (if the jewel were still within the necklace before Elwing t this point in the first place), and by his power had Elwing, somehow, continue to wear only the Silmaril.

Although in Bilbo's externally 'latest version' of this poem (published in HME or at least by Hammond and Scull), is Elwing necessarily changed into a bird? One would think so, since she flies like one; but we are dealing with a 'god' here... although that's not really my main point anyway.

... it's more about the fate of the Nauglamír itself. Have I forgotten something else?

Or something?
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Old 12-07-2014, 03:05 PM   #114
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Galin, may be we overanalyse the text her but the case is interresting:

In J.R.R. Tolkien last version of the text in the Quenta Noldorinwa we read, that Dior went to Doriath after the fading of Luthien and the death of Beren. We have to asume that he took the Nauglamir with him. Then we read:
Quote:
But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; ...
Yet the sons of Fëanor gained not the Silmaril; for faithful servants fled before them and took with them Elwing the daugther of Dior, and she escaped, and they bore with them the Nauglafring, ...
QI then reads:
Quote:
The dwelling of Elwing at Sirion's mouth, whre still she possessed the Nauglafring and the glorious Silmaril, beame known to the sons of Fëanor; and they gathered together from their wandering hunting-paths. But the folk of Sirion would not yeild that jewel which Beren had won and Lúthien had worn, and for which faair Dior had benn slain. ... And yet the sons of Fëanor gained not the Silmaril; for Elwing cast the Nauglafring into the sea, whence it shall not return until the End; ...
QII has story much nearer to the one told in Sil77:
Quote:
Upon the havens of Sirion new woe had fallen. The dwelling of Elweing there, where still she possessed the Nauglafring and the glorius Silmaril., became know unto the remaining sons of Fëanor, Maidors and Maglor and Damrod and Díriel; and they gathered together from their wandering hunting-paths, and messages of friendship and yet stern demand they sent unto Sirion. But Elwing and the folk of Sirion would not yield that jewel which Beren had won and Lúthien had worn, and for which Dior the Fair was slain; and least of all while Eärendil their lord was in the sea, for them seemed that in that jewel lay the gift of bliss and healing that had come upon their houses and their ships.
... And yet Maidors gained not the Silmaril, for Elwing seeing that all was lost and her child Elrond taken captive, eluded the host of Maidors, and with the Nauglafring upon her breats she cast herself into the sea, and perished as folk thought.
But Ulmo bore hre up and he gave unto her the likeness of a great withe bird, and upon her breast there shone as a star the shining Silmaril, as she flew over the water to seek Eärendel her beloved. ...
... He stood now most often at the prow, and the Silmaril he bound upon his forehaed; ...
The only later source we have beside Bilbo's Song is the Tale of the Year. In that the percious thing is named Nauglamir only when the necklace is made and when the Ruin of Doriath by the Dwarves is told. There after is only the Silmaril mentioned.

In Sil77 the last mention of the Naulglamir is when Dior wears it:
Quote:
The Dior arose, and about his neck he clasped the Nauglamir; ...

But now the rumour ran among the scatterd Elves of Beleriand that Dior Thingol's heir wore the Nauglamir, and they said: 'A Silmaril of Fëanor burns in the woods of Doriath'; and the oath of the sons of Fëanor was waked again from sleep. For while Lúthien wore the Necklace of the Dwarves no Elf would dare to assial her; ...
...
... But the sons of Fëanor gained not what they sought; for a remnant of the people fled before them, and with them was Elwing Dior's daughter, and they escaped, and bearing with them the Silmaril they came in time to the mouths of the River Sirion by the Sea.
Thereafter only teh Silmaril is mentioned even so "wearing the Silmaril on her breast" does suggest that the stone is still bound in the Necklace.

So it is clear that Christopher Tolkien changed the use of Nauglamir and Silmaril in naming the treasure deliberatly form what he found in the source texts. But the only hint we have for the reason might be JRR Tolkiens use in the Tale of the Year.

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Findegil

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Old 12-09-2014, 12:28 AM   #115
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Thanks Findegil, and to be clear I wasn't questioning your choice in the text, but was looking more for confirmation about what I found in HME.

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